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On February 27 2016 23:04 Sogetsu wrote:
TL:DR
- RTS is an almost dead genre
- SC2 has success thanks mainly to BW universe
- LotV is quite good and will improve
- There are and could be excellent mods for SC2
- Blizz will be always keeping LotV alive
- If LotV starts to die and/or Blizz abandon it, the Mods will save it
RTS is far from dead, there is just a lack of good RTS games at the moment beyond SC2.
LotV is pushing the genre away from strategy and toward micro, and that is why it seems like RTS is almost dead genre. LotV is going in the wrong direction.
Your second to last point contradicts your last point. And as for excellent mods and mods saving LotV, I don't think so. Modders are moving away from SC2, back to WC3 or to DOTA 2. The SC2 editor is garbage.
And I say that as a modder.
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On February 29 2016 14:16 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 23:04 Sogetsu wrote:
TL:DR
- RTS is an almost dead genre
- SC2 has success thanks mainly to BW universe
- LotV is quite good and will improve
- There are and could be excellent mods for SC2
- Blizz will be always keeping LotV alive
- If LotV starts to die and/or Blizz abandon it, the Mods will save it
RTS is far from dead, there is just a lack of good RTS games at the moment beyond SC2. LotV is pushing the genre away from strategy and toward micro, and that is why it seems like RTS is almost dead genre. LotV is going in the wrong direction. Your second to last point contradicts your last point. And as for excellent mods and mods saving LotV, I don't think so. Modders are moving away from SC2, back to WC3 or to DOTA 2. The SC2 editor is garbage. And I say that as a modder.
Agreed on the mods. It should have been one of the main selling points of the game, same as with SC and WC3. They didn''t give it enough attention from the beginning.
And spot on the strategic gameplay argument. They are going the completely wrong direction.
Sadly, MOBA games tend to actually have more strategic gameplay than SC2. That's why most strategy players moved there. It's not simply because "MOBA are popular". It's becuase MOBA offers a similar style of gameplay and combat mechanics. Strategic choices, builds, counterplay, scouting, zone control, ambushes, pincers, resource management... all those are still found in a MOBA. In some cases, you get a lot more of it in a MOBA.
But instead of adding more strategic game play to the STRATEGY game, they try to make it more like a MOBA mechanically. But it's the strategy that brings players there, not the mechanics. The mechanics of a MOBA are based on an RTS anyway.
RTS's need to bring the STRATEGY back.
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I believe blizz is gonna keep supporting sc2 with stuff like dlc and balance patches, but will eventually faze out updates as sales plateau to a low.
After that they'll transfer any remaining people who are working full time on sc2 over to heroes of the storm where the real money will be.
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tbh Warcraft III also had the best arcade ever.
Which is still better than SC2 today, i still play a few custom map with my friends from time to time.
Maps such as Legion TD have more success than any SC2 arcade map will ever had, SC2 is heavy, slow battlenet linked, with an arstyle that does not fit arcade at all. Shit WC3 arcade is so fun, you can do everything from alien to DBZ characters and somewhow it will work out, whereas sc2.....Looks like shit in arcade to be frank.
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As an Italian American I would like to say you did a great job translating, Thanks for the good read!
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On February 29 2016 14:29 MasterCynical wrote:
I believe blizz is gonna keep supporting sc2 with stuff like dlc and balance patches, but will eventually faze out updates as sales plateau to a low.
After that they'll transfer any remaining people who are working full time on sc2 over to heroes of the storm where the real money will be.
Blizz already is doing that.
SC2 is getting supported with more mission packs, but very few actual multiplayer changes. Already being phased out.
SC2 devs already went over to Heroes. That's what happened to Browder. Plus he stated in the past that much of the SC2 team were the people who were working on Heroes.
Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams. Much of the teams are shared. Even David Kim was announced to have been working on Heroes. SC2 and Heroes are both worked on by "Team 1". Team 1 is the team that works on all of the Blizzard RTS-style games (WC/SC/Heroes).
That's exactly the reason why so many people are upset. It's not like Blizz doesn't have the manpower, or the quality of designers available, or the funds to do it. They simply have not chosen to and put other games as a higher priority. Which is alarming since this is pretty much the first time Blizzard has treated a game this way. It's in the state it's in by choice.
Which, btw, is also part of the reason people suspect they might just be working on another RTS.
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On February 29 2016 14:52 Spyridon wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams. Much of the teams are shared. Even David Kim was announced to have been working on Heroes. SC2 and Heroes are both worked on by "Team 1". Team 1 is the team that works on all of the Blizzard RTS-style games (WC/SC/Heroes).
That's exactly the reason why so many people are upset. It's not like Blizz doesn't have the manpower, or the quality of designers available, or the funds to do it. They simply have not chosen to and put other games as a higher priority. Which is alarming since this is pretty much the first time Blizzard has treated a game this way. It's in the state it's in by choice.
Which, btw, is also part of the reason people suspect they might just be working on another RTS.
i don't think both Sigaty and Browder are lying or intentionally misleading Blizzard followers. ATVI is not funding another RTS because it generates too little revenue. LotV won't even make $0.1 Billion and the entire SC franchise since JUly 2010 has contributed less than 1.5% to ATVI's revenue stream.
Sigaty said nothing will step on SC2's toes or enter its market-space for 10 years. i don't think he is hiding anything. he was careful about how he expressed himself to make sure he as not misleading the questioner.
"Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams"
its not a "popular belief" unless you're prepared to say Browder is outright lying. Browder stated teh Team-1 consists of 80 people and the Heroes team consists of 140 people. His tweets came within a week of each other. If you think he is bullshitting or intentionally misleading people with "slippery language" then call him out on it... and see what happens.
here is the info i have based on sources i trust.
The SC2 quote of 80
The Heroes quote of 140+
if you have sources to back your points you should include them.
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On February 29 2016 14:16 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2016 23:04 Sogetsu wrote:
TL:DR
- RTS is an almost dead genre
- SC2 has success thanks mainly to BW universe
- LotV is quite good and will improve
- There are and could be excellent mods for SC2
- Blizz will be always keeping LotV alive
- If LotV starts to die and/or Blizz abandon it, the Mods will save it
RTS is far from dead, there is just a lack of good RTS games at the moment beyond SC2.LotV is pushing the genre away from strategy and toward micro, and that is why it seems like RTS is almost dead genre. LotV is going in the wrong direction. Your second to last point contradicts your last point. And as for excellent mods and mods saving LotV, I don't think so. Modders are moving away from SC2, back to WC3 or to DOTA 2. The SC2 editor is garbage. And I say that as a modder.
wat
people still play bw you know, much more than sc2 id wager
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On February 29 2016 16:24 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2016 14:16 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 27 2016 23:04 Sogetsu wrote:
TL:DR
- RTS is an almost dead genre
- SC2 has success thanks mainly to BW universe
- LotV is quite good and will improve
- There are and could be excellent mods for SC2
- Blizz will be always keeping LotV alive
- If LotV starts to die and/or Blizz abandon it, the Mods will save it
RTS is far from dead, there is just a lack of good RTS games at the moment beyond SC2.LotV is pushing the genre away from strategy and toward micro, and that is why it seems like RTS is almost dead genre. LotV is going in the wrong direction. Your second to last point contradicts your last point. And as for excellent mods and mods saving LotV, I don't think so. Modders are moving away from SC2, back to WC3 or to DOTA 2. The SC2 editor is garbage. And I say that as a modder. wat people still play bw you know, much more than sc2 id wager
In korea maybe.
In europe and the US people play and watch SC2 more than SC1 ( to be fair SC1 is a niche of a niche of a niche market in the west, nobody gives a flying fuck about it )
Also keep in mind that in a global scale both of those games are nothing today.
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On February 29 2016 16:08 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2016 14:52 Spyridon wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams. Much of the teams are shared. Even David Kim was announced to have been working on Heroes. SC2 and Heroes are both worked on by "Team 1". Team 1 is the team that works on all of the Blizzard RTS-style games (WC/SC/Heroes).
That's exactly the reason why so many people are upset. It's not like Blizz doesn't have the manpower, or the quality of designers available, or the funds to do it. They simply have not chosen to and put other games as a higher priority. Which is alarming since this is pretty much the first time Blizzard has treated a game this way. It's in the state it's in by choice.
Which, btw, is also part of the reason people suspect they might just be working on another RTS. i don't think both Sigaty and Browder are lying or intentionally misleading Blizzard followers. ATVI is not funding another RTS because it generates too little revenue. LotV won't even make $0.1 Billion and the entire SC franchise since JUly 2010 has contributed less than 1.5% to ATVI's revenue stream. Sigaty said nothing will step on SC2's toes or enter its market-space for 10 years. i don't think he is hiding anything. he was careful about how he expressed himself to make sure he as not misleading the questioner. "Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams" its not a "popular belief" unless you're prepared to say Browder is outright lying. Browder stated teh Team-1 consists of 80 people and the Heroes team consists of 140 people. His tweets came within a week of each other. If you think he is bullshitting or intentionally misleading people with "slippery language" then call him out on it... and see what happens. here is the info i have based on sources i trust. The SC2 quote of 80 https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/697180199473934338The Heroes quote of 140+ https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/694939451701612544if you have sources to back your points you should include them.
It's not "intentionally lying or misleading followers". It's called PR. It's why only certain members of the Blizz teams have authority to mention things like that. BTW, look at how many years it's been. If they announce a game at Blizzcon this year it would be released at the 10 year mark.
Just because they have 80 people working on SC2, and 140 working on Heroes, doesn't mean those 80 people are not working on Heroes as well. Team 1 is the team that worked on BOTH SC2 and Heroes. Blizzard teams are NOT exclusive outside of lead positions.
Notice how he NEVER stated that those people work "exclusively" on said game?
I'm at work right now, but the development being with team 1 is public knowledge. Just doing a quick google of a source: http://heroes.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/heroes-of-the-storm-developer-qa-part-2-jan-22-2014-transcript
An example quote:
Kaeo– I am fortunate enough to have been here for 12 years. A little bit over 12 years at Blizzard now. Started out like a lot of people in our development teams have — in Quality Assurance (QA) sharing testing Warcraft III originally. Tech Support, just testing all the Warcraft in their early days. Also was the recruiter for Blizzard for a long time, the World of Warcraft team, the Cinematics Team, eventually I transitioned into production and I have been doing that for a little over 9 years on Blizzard almost, exclusively on Team 1 — which is the Heroes of the Storm Team and previously the StarCraft.
You can also find other posts on Google about how Team 1 has separate sub teams, including an eSports team, that is also mentioned to been utilized by both SC2 and Heroes. Nowhere do they ever mention anything other than Team 1 is the team to work on both games.
Blizzard - Team 1 = RTS-style games. Team 2 = WoW. Team 3 = Diablo. Team 4 = Titan/Overwatch. Team 5 = Hearthstone.
Some other quotes regarding other RTS:
Blizzard has revealed its RTS team may indeed revisit the Warcraft franchise once the last chapter in the StarCraft II story is complete. Speaking to IGN at Gamescom, StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void producer Tim Morten admitted that while the potential is certainly there for StarCraft III focusing on all-new characters, it's not the only option available to them.
"It’s very rewarding for us to hear that there’s demand out there for more RTS content in the Warcraft universe so once we’re done with Void I think we’ll get together as a team and talk about what would inspire us to work on next. There’s no question, though, that we’ll consider Warcraft, StarCraft, or even new ideas. Anything is possible."
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On February 29 2016 14:32 shid0x wrote:
tbh Warcraft III also had the best arcade ever.
Which is still better than SC2 today, i still play a few custom map with my friends from time to time.
Maps such as Legion TD have more success than any SC2 arcade map will ever had, SC2 is heavy, slow battlenet linked, with an arstyle that does not fit arcade at all. Shit WC3 arcade is so fun, you can do everything from alien to DBZ characters and somewhow it will work out, whereas sc2.....Looks like shit in arcade to be frank.
Squadron TD is way more fun than Legion TD.
And I disagree. While a lot of the arcade changes would've worked out a lot better if they were there in 2010, I love the state of the SC2 arcade right now. Actually still amazed to see one of my old maps played on there once in a blue moon.
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I don't know about SC2 custom games cause I almost never played any,
but there is no doubt that WC3 custom games are amazing (had amazing activity, wonder nowadays I guess a lot have left for LoL and Dota2 which originated from that warcraft 3 dota map^^ but there were lots of other kinds of fun maps, tower defences but also role playing games, mario party style etc), even better than BW which always had strong UMS activity.
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On March 01 2016 01:52 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2016 16:08 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 29 2016 14:52 Spyridon wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams. Much of the teams are shared. Even David Kim was announced to have been working on Heroes. SC2 and Heroes are both worked on by "Team 1". Team 1 is the team that works on all of the Blizzard RTS-style games (WC/SC/Heroes).
That's exactly the reason why so many people are upset. It's not like Blizz doesn't have the manpower, or the quality of designers available, or the funds to do it. They simply have not chosen to and put other games as a higher priority. Which is alarming since this is pretty much the first time Blizzard has treated a game this way. It's in the state it's in by choice.
Which, btw, is also part of the reason people suspect they might just be working on another RTS. i don't think both Sigaty and Browder are lying or intentionally misleading Blizzard followers. ATVI is not funding another RTS because it generates too little revenue. LotV won't even make $0.1 Billion and the entire SC franchise since JUly 2010 has contributed less than 1.5% to ATVI's revenue stream. Sigaty said nothing will step on SC2's toes or enter its market-space for 10 years. i don't think he is hiding anything. he was careful about how he expressed himself to make sure he as not misleading the questioner. "Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams" its not a "popular belief" unless you're prepared to say Browder is outright lying. Browder stated teh Team-1 consists of 80 people and the Heroes team consists of 140 people. His tweets came within a week of each other. If you think he is bullshitting or intentionally misleading people with "slippery language" then call him out on it... and see what happens. here is the info i have based on sources i trust. The SC2 quote of 80 https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/697180199473934338The Heroes quote of 140+ https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/694939451701612544if you have sources to back your points you should include them. It's not "intentionally lying or misleading followers". It's called PR. It's why only certain members of the Blizz teams have authority to mention things like that. BTW, look at how many years it's been. If they announce a game at Blizzcon this year it would be released at the 10 year mark. Just because they have 80 people working on SC2, and 140 working on Heroes, doesn't mean those 80 people are not working on Heroes as well. Team 1 is the team that worked on BOTH SC2 and Heroes. Blizzard teams are NOT exclusive outside of lead positions. Notice how he NEVER stated that those people work "exclusively" on said game? I'm at work right now, but the development being with team 1 is public knowledge. Just doing a quick google of a source: http://heroes.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/heroes-of-the-storm-developer-qa-part-2-jan-22-2014-transcriptAn example quote: Show nested quote +Kaeo– I am fortunate enough to have been here for 12 years. A little bit over 12 years at Blizzard now. Started out like a lot of people in our development teams have — in Quality Assurance (QA) sharing testing Warcraft III originally. Tech Support, just testing all the Warcraft in their early days. Also was the recruiter for Blizzard for a long time, the World of Warcraft team, the Cinematics Team, eventually I transitioned into production and I have been doing that for a little over 9 years on Blizzard almost, exclusively on Team 1 — which is the Heroes of the Storm Team and previously the StarCraft. You can also find other posts on Google about how Team 1 has separate sub teams, including an eSports team, that is also mentioned to been utilized by both SC2 and Heroes. Nowhere do they ever mention anything other than Team 1 is the team to work on both games. Blizzard - Team 1 = RTS-style games. Team 2 = WoW. Team 3 = Diablo. Team 4 = Titan/Overwatch. Team 5 = Hearthstone. Some other quotes regarding other RTS: Show nested quote +Blizzard has revealed its RTS team may indeed revisit the Warcraft franchise once the last chapter in the StarCraft II story is complete. Speaking to IGN at Gamescom, StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void producer Tim Morten admitted that while the potential is certainly there for StarCraft III focusing on all-new characters, it's not the only option available to them. Show nested quote +"It’s very rewarding for us to hear that there’s demand out there for more RTS content in the Warcraft universe so once we’re done with Void I think we’ll get together as a team and talk about what would inspire us to work on next. There’s no question, though, that we’ll consider Warcraft, StarCraft, or even new ideas. Anything is possible."
I think the individual esports team is very small insignficant compared to the actual esports team headed up by Kim Phan.
Jimmy has already disputed that point with Tim Morten with this interview: http://www.pcgamesn.com/starcraft-ii/starcraft-2-the-next-ten-years
"I can’t answer that because honestly we don’t know. Is it possible we work on something that steps on the toes of StarCraft? Yes, but there’s no intention to do that today, which is why I think it’s so critical and important how we treat it and how we continue to improve it and make things better - that matters. I think [StarCraft] absolutely stands as an amazing experience to both celebrate the people that get to that level of skill and quality and also to be able to watch and see that. While it’s possible we would [replace that], I don’t see it happening."
Tim Morten is just a producer who just joined the company, the quoted interview is from a Blizzard lifer whose the EXECUTIVE producer
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On March 01 2016 05:49 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 01:52 Spyridon wrote:On February 29 2016 16:08 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 29 2016 14:52 Spyridon wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams. Much of the teams are shared. Even David Kim was announced to have been working on Heroes. SC2 and Heroes are both worked on by "Team 1". Team 1 is the team that works on all of the Blizzard RTS-style games (WC/SC/Heroes).
That's exactly the reason why so many people are upset. It's not like Blizz doesn't have the manpower, or the quality of designers available, or the funds to do it. They simply have not chosen to and put other games as a higher priority. Which is alarming since this is pretty much the first time Blizzard has treated a game this way. It's in the state it's in by choice.
Which, btw, is also part of the reason people suspect they might just be working on another RTS. i don't think both Sigaty and Browder are lying or intentionally misleading Blizzard followers. ATVI is not funding another RTS because it generates too little revenue. LotV won't even make $0.1 Billion and the entire SC franchise since JUly 2010 has contributed less than 1.5% to ATVI's revenue stream. Sigaty said nothing will step on SC2's toes or enter its market-space for 10 years. i don't think he is hiding anything. he was careful about how he expressed himself to make sure he as not misleading the questioner. "Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams" its not a "popular belief" unless you're prepared to say Browder is outright lying. Browder stated teh Team-1 consists of 80 people and the Heroes team consists of 140 people. His tweets came within a week of each other. If you think he is bullshitting or intentionally misleading people with "slippery language" then call him out on it... and see what happens. here is the info i have based on sources i trust. The SC2 quote of 80 https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/697180199473934338The Heroes quote of 140+ https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/694939451701612544if you have sources to back your points you should include them. It's not "intentionally lying or misleading followers". It's called PR. It's why only certain members of the Blizz teams have authority to mention things like that. BTW, look at how many years it's been. If they announce a game at Blizzcon this year it would be released at the 10 year mark. Just because they have 80 people working on SC2, and 140 working on Heroes, doesn't mean those 80 people are not working on Heroes as well. Team 1 is the team that worked on BOTH SC2 and Heroes. Blizzard teams are NOT exclusive outside of lead positions. Notice how he NEVER stated that those people work "exclusively" on said game? I'm at work right now, but the development being with team 1 is public knowledge. Just doing a quick google of a source: http://heroes.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/heroes-of-the-storm-developer-qa-part-2-jan-22-2014-transcriptAn example quote: Kaeo– I am fortunate enough to have been here for 12 years. A little bit over 12 years at Blizzard now. Started out like a lot of people in our development teams have — in Quality Assurance (QA) sharing testing Warcraft III originally. Tech Support, just testing all the Warcraft in their early days. Also was the recruiter for Blizzard for a long time, the World of Warcraft team, the Cinematics Team, eventually I transitioned into production and I have been doing that for a little over 9 years on Blizzard almost, exclusively on Team 1 — which is the Heroes of the Storm Team and previously the StarCraft. You can also find other posts on Google about how Team 1 has separate sub teams, including an eSports team, that is also mentioned to been utilized by both SC2 and Heroes. Nowhere do they ever mention anything other than Team 1 is the team to work on both games. Blizzard - Team 1 = RTS-style games. Team 2 = WoW. Team 3 = Diablo. Team 4 = Titan/Overwatch. Team 5 = Hearthstone. Some other quotes regarding other RTS: Blizzard has revealed its RTS team may indeed revisit the Warcraft franchise once the last chapter in the StarCraft II story is complete. Speaking to IGN at Gamescom, StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void producer Tim Morten admitted that while the potential is certainly there for StarCraft III focusing on all-new characters, it's not the only option available to them. "It’s very rewarding for us to hear that there’s demand out there for more RTS content in the Warcraft universe so once we’re done with Void I think we’ll get together as a team and talk about what would inspire us to work on next. There’s no question, though, that we’ll consider Warcraft, StarCraft, or even new ideas. Anything is possible." I think the individual esports team is very small insignficant compared to the actual esports team headed up by Kim Phan. Jimmy has already disputed that point with Tim Morten with this interview: http://www.pcgamesn.com/starcraft-ii/starcraft-2-the-next-ten-yearsShow nested quote +"I can’t answer that because honestly we don’t know. Is it possible we work on something that steps on the toes of StarCraft? Yes, but there’s no intention to do that today, which is why I think it’s so critical and important how we treat it and how we continue to improve it and make things better - that matters. I think [StarCraft] absolutely stands as an amazing experience to both celebrate the people that get to that level of skill and quality and also to be able to watch and see that. While it’s possible we would [replace that], I don’t see it happening." Tim Morten is just a producer who just joined the company, the quoted interview is from a Blizzard lifer whose the EXECUTIVE producer
The primary point of my post was that Team 1 is in charge of both games, and developers are split between the two games. The fact that they may be working on something on the side is a related point, but not the main point. Considering games are typically developed 1-2 years before they are even announced, it completely fits within the timeline.
Either way, as it stands right now, Team 1 is split between SC2 and Heroes, with all the majority of SC development being put in to the mission pack coming out in a few months, and Heroes is getting a hell of a lot more development in the eSports, balancing, and multiplayer departments. The prospect of another RTS in development is just another potential thing that may slow down SC2 development even more. Een Kim Phan has mentioned working on Heroes multiple times.
All this talk about "no other games stepping on SC2"... What do you think is happening as we speak when they are putting Heroes development ahead of SC2 and sharing a development team with them? Even by Browders own words Heroes has nearly double the size on their dev team.
I completely understand they want to keep up the momentum of Heroes, but the way their treating SC2 is a first for the company. The game is suffering and needs that attention for multiplayer development. But their developing it for mission packs, and focusing their heaviest multiplayer efforts elsewhere.
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On March 01 2016 06:24 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 05:49 lestye wrote:On March 01 2016 01:52 Spyridon wrote:On February 29 2016 16:08 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 29 2016 14:52 Spyridon wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams. Much of the teams are shared. Even David Kim was announced to have been working on Heroes. SC2 and Heroes are both worked on by "Team 1". Team 1 is the team that works on all of the Blizzard RTS-style games (WC/SC/Heroes).
That's exactly the reason why so many people are upset. It's not like Blizz doesn't have the manpower, or the quality of designers available, or the funds to do it. They simply have not chosen to and put other games as a higher priority. Which is alarming since this is pretty much the first time Blizzard has treated a game this way. It's in the state it's in by choice.
Which, btw, is also part of the reason people suspect they might just be working on another RTS. i don't think both Sigaty and Browder are lying or intentionally misleading Blizzard followers. ATVI is not funding another RTS because it generates too little revenue. LotV won't even make $0.1 Billion and the entire SC franchise since JUly 2010 has contributed less than 1.5% to ATVI's revenue stream. Sigaty said nothing will step on SC2's toes or enter its market-space for 10 years. i don't think he is hiding anything. he was careful about how he expressed himself to make sure he as not misleading the questioner. "Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams" its not a "popular belief" unless you're prepared to say Browder is outright lying. Browder stated teh Team-1 consists of 80 people and the Heroes team consists of 140 people. His tweets came within a week of each other. If you think he is bullshitting or intentionally misleading people with "slippery language" then call him out on it... and see what happens. here is the info i have based on sources i trust. The SC2 quote of 80 https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/697180199473934338The Heroes quote of 140+ https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/694939451701612544if you have sources to back your points you should include them. It's not "intentionally lying or misleading followers". It's called PR. It's why only certain members of the Blizz teams have authority to mention things like that. BTW, look at how many years it's been. If they announce a game at Blizzcon this year it would be released at the 10 year mark. Just because they have 80 people working on SC2, and 140 working on Heroes, doesn't mean those 80 people are not working on Heroes as well. Team 1 is the team that worked on BOTH SC2 and Heroes. Blizzard teams are NOT exclusive outside of lead positions. Notice how he NEVER stated that those people work "exclusively" on said game? I'm at work right now, but the development being with team 1 is public knowledge. Just doing a quick google of a source: http://heroes.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/heroes-of-the-storm-developer-qa-part-2-jan-22-2014-transcriptAn example quote: Kaeo– I am fortunate enough to have been here for 12 years. A little bit over 12 years at Blizzard now. Started out like a lot of people in our development teams have — in Quality Assurance (QA) sharing testing Warcraft III originally. Tech Support, just testing all the Warcraft in their early days. Also was the recruiter for Blizzard for a long time, the World of Warcraft team, the Cinematics Team, eventually I transitioned into production and I have been doing that for a little over 9 years on Blizzard almost, exclusively on Team 1 — which is the Heroes of the Storm Team and previously the StarCraft. You can also find other posts on Google about how Team 1 has separate sub teams, including an eSports team, that is also mentioned to been utilized by both SC2 and Heroes. Nowhere do they ever mention anything other than Team 1 is the team to work on both games. Blizzard - Team 1 = RTS-style games. Team 2 = WoW. Team 3 = Diablo. Team 4 = Titan/Overwatch. Team 5 = Hearthstone. Some other quotes regarding other RTS: Blizzard has revealed its RTS team may indeed revisit the Warcraft franchise once the last chapter in the StarCraft II story is complete. Speaking to IGN at Gamescom, StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void producer Tim Morten admitted that while the potential is certainly there for StarCraft III focusing on all-new characters, it's not the only option available to them. "It’s very rewarding for us to hear that there’s demand out there for more RTS content in the Warcraft universe so once we’re done with Void I think we’ll get together as a team and talk about what would inspire us to work on next. There’s no question, though, that we’ll consider Warcraft, StarCraft, or even new ideas. Anything is possible." I think the individual esports team is very small insignficant compared to the actual esports team headed up by Kim Phan. Jimmy has already disputed that point with Tim Morten with this interview: http://www.pcgamesn.com/starcraft-ii/starcraft-2-the-next-ten-years"I can’t answer that because honestly we don’t know. Is it possible we work on something that steps on the toes of StarCraft? Yes, but there’s no intention to do that today, which is why I think it’s so critical and important how we treat it and how we continue to improve it and make things better - that matters. I think [StarCraft] absolutely stands as an amazing experience to both celebrate the people that get to that level of skill and quality and also to be able to watch and see that. While it’s possible we would [replace that], I don’t see it happening." Tim Morten is just a producer who just joined the company, the quoted interview is from a Blizzard lifer whose the EXECUTIVE producer The primary point of my post was that Team 1 is in charge of both games, and developers are split between the two games. The fact that they may be working on something on the side is a related point, but not the main point. Considering games are typically developed 1-2 years before they are even announced, it completely fits within the timeline. Either way, as it stands right now, Team 1 is split between SC2 and Heroes, with all the majority of SC development being put in to the mission pack coming out in a few months, and Heroes is getting a hell of a lot more development in the eSports, balancing, and multiplayer departments. The prospect of another RTS in development is just another potential thing that may slow down SC2 development even more. Een Kim Phan has mentioned working on Heroes multiple times. All this talk about "no other games stepping on SC2"... What do you think is happening as we speak when they are putting Heroes development ahead of SC2 and sharing a development team with them? Even by Browders own words Heroes has nearly double the size on their dev team. I completely understand they want to keep up the momentum of Heroes, but the way their treating SC2 is a first for the company. The game is suffering and needs that attention for multiplayer development. But their developing it for mission packs, and focusing their heaviest multiplayer efforts elsewhere.
They mean an RTS stepping on SC2. Heroes is a completely different game. It's like what SC2 did when it came out, all the WC3 and foreign BW pros jumped ship for the new game.
Also... Heroes needs all the development it can get. The game is incredibly unbalanced, doesn't have a proper drafting screen, lack of bans, there's no actual ranked play, you cant even target anything to see how much health it has. It's a huge mess
I disagree, the multiplayer is always welcome for improvements, but you also what content to get people to check back in to SC2, specifically casuals. In a game like Dota or League, you can add a champion or a hero and it gets casuals flocking back to try it out. You can't really do that with units in SC. But if you had new content like Co-Op missions, and mission packs, you have more people checking back and paying attention to the game. It also gives them sustainable income to keep the team back on. I'm sure there's stuff they want to do down the pipeline but it can't be something that only appeals to one part of the fanbase.
GRANTED, it's an important one. I guess it's a weird balance, you need to keep the dedicated people who are going to be playing your games for many years happy, as well as attracting old fans to check back in once in a while for a cool patch (which is what SC2 has been lacking because of my previous point of them holding back to put stuff on the back of the box)
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On March 01 2016 07:42 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 06:24 Spyridon wrote:On March 01 2016 05:49 lestye wrote:On March 01 2016 01:52 Spyridon wrote:On February 29 2016 16:08 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 29 2016 14:52 Spyridon wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams. Much of the teams are shared. Even David Kim was announced to have been working on Heroes. SC2 and Heroes are both worked on by "Team 1". Team 1 is the team that works on all of the Blizzard RTS-style games (WC/SC/Heroes).
That's exactly the reason why so many people are upset. It's not like Blizz doesn't have the manpower, or the quality of designers available, or the funds to do it. They simply have not chosen to and put other games as a higher priority. Which is alarming since this is pretty much the first time Blizzard has treated a game this way. It's in the state it's in by choice.
Which, btw, is also part of the reason people suspect they might just be working on another RTS. i don't think both Sigaty and Browder are lying or intentionally misleading Blizzard followers. ATVI is not funding another RTS because it generates too little revenue. LotV won't even make $0.1 Billion and the entire SC franchise since JUly 2010 has contributed less than 1.5% to ATVI's revenue stream. Sigaty said nothing will step on SC2's toes or enter its market-space for 10 years. i don't think he is hiding anything. he was careful about how he expressed himself to make sure he as not misleading the questioner. "Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams" its not a "popular belief" unless you're prepared to say Browder is outright lying. Browder stated teh Team-1 consists of 80 people and the Heroes team consists of 140 people. His tweets came within a week of each other. If you think he is bullshitting or intentionally misleading people with "slippery language" then call him out on it... and see what happens. here is the info i have based on sources i trust. The SC2 quote of 80 https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/697180199473934338The Heroes quote of 140+ https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/694939451701612544if you have sources to back your points you should include them. It's not "intentionally lying or misleading followers". It's called PR. It's why only certain members of the Blizz teams have authority to mention things like that. BTW, look at how many years it's been. If they announce a game at Blizzcon this year it would be released at the 10 year mark. Just because they have 80 people working on SC2, and 140 working on Heroes, doesn't mean those 80 people are not working on Heroes as well. Team 1 is the team that worked on BOTH SC2 and Heroes. Blizzard teams are NOT exclusive outside of lead positions. Notice how he NEVER stated that those people work "exclusively" on said game? I'm at work right now, but the development being with team 1 is public knowledge. Just doing a quick google of a source: http://heroes.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/heroes-of-the-storm-developer-qa-part-2-jan-22-2014-transcriptAn example quote: Kaeo– I am fortunate enough to have been here for 12 years. A little bit over 12 years at Blizzard now. Started out like a lot of people in our development teams have — in Quality Assurance (QA) sharing testing Warcraft III originally. Tech Support, just testing all the Warcraft in their early days. Also was the recruiter for Blizzard for a long time, the World of Warcraft team, the Cinematics Team, eventually I transitioned into production and I have been doing that for a little over 9 years on Blizzard almost, exclusively on Team 1 — which is the Heroes of the Storm Team and previously the StarCraft. You can also find other posts on Google about how Team 1 has separate sub teams, including an eSports team, that is also mentioned to been utilized by both SC2 and Heroes. Nowhere do they ever mention anything other than Team 1 is the team to work on both games. Blizzard - Team 1 = RTS-style games. Team 2 = WoW. Team 3 = Diablo. Team 4 = Titan/Overwatch. Team 5 = Hearthstone. Some other quotes regarding other RTS: Blizzard has revealed its RTS team may indeed revisit the Warcraft franchise once the last chapter in the StarCraft II story is complete. Speaking to IGN at Gamescom, StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void producer Tim Morten admitted that while the potential is certainly there for StarCraft III focusing on all-new characters, it's not the only option available to them. "It’s very rewarding for us to hear that there’s demand out there for more RTS content in the Warcraft universe so once we’re done with Void I think we’ll get together as a team and talk about what would inspire us to work on next. There’s no question, though, that we’ll consider Warcraft, StarCraft, or even new ideas. Anything is possible." I think the individual esports team is very small insignficant compared to the actual esports team headed up by Kim Phan. Jimmy has already disputed that point with Tim Morten with this interview: http://www.pcgamesn.com/starcraft-ii/starcraft-2-the-next-ten-years"I can’t answer that because honestly we don’t know. Is it possible we work on something that steps on the toes of StarCraft? Yes, but there’s no intention to do that today, which is why I think it’s so critical and important how we treat it and how we continue to improve it and make things better - that matters. I think [StarCraft] absolutely stands as an amazing experience to both celebrate the people that get to that level of skill and quality and also to be able to watch and see that. While it’s possible we would [replace that], I don’t see it happening." Tim Morten is just a producer who just joined the company, the quoted interview is from a Blizzard lifer whose the EXECUTIVE producer The primary point of my post was that Team 1 is in charge of both games, and developers are split between the two games. The fact that they may be working on something on the side is a related point, but not the main point. Considering games are typically developed 1-2 years before they are even announced, it completely fits within the timeline. Either way, as it stands right now, Team 1 is split between SC2 and Heroes, with all the majority of SC development being put in to the mission pack coming out in a few months, and Heroes is getting a hell of a lot more development in the eSports, balancing, and multiplayer departments. The prospect of another RTS in development is just another potential thing that may slow down SC2 development even more. Een Kim Phan has mentioned working on Heroes multiple times. All this talk about "no other games stepping on SC2"... What do you think is happening as we speak when they are putting Heroes development ahead of SC2 and sharing a development team with them? Even by Browders own words Heroes has nearly double the size on their dev team. I completely understand they want to keep up the momentum of Heroes, but the way their treating SC2 is a first for the company. The game is suffering and needs that attention for multiplayer development. But their developing it for mission packs, and focusing their heaviest multiplayer efforts elsewhere. They mean an RTS stepping on SC2. Heroes is a completely different game. It's like what SC2 did when it came out, all the WC3 and foreign BW pros jumped ship for the new game. Also... Heroes needs all the development it can get. The game is incredibly unbalanced, doesn't have a proper drafting screen, lack of bans, there's no actual ranked play, you cant even target anything to see how much health it has. It's a huge mess I disagree, the multiplayer is always welcome for improvements, but you also what content to get people to check back in to SC2, specifically casuals. In a game like Dota or League, you can add a champion or a hero and it gets casuals flocking back to try it out. You can't really do that with units in SC. But if you had new content like Co-Op missions, and mission packs, you have more people checking back and paying attention to the game. It also gives them sustainable income to keep the team back on. I'm sure there's stuff they want to do down the pipeline but it can't be something that only appeals to one part of the fanbase. GRANTED, it's an important one. I guess it's a weird balance, you need to keep the dedicated people who are going to be playing your games for many years happy, as well as attracting old fans to check back in once in a while for a cool patch (which is what SC2 has been lacking because of my previous point of them holding back to put stuff on the back of the box)
Things like coop missions didn't really bring people back to the game, because the core issues that people had with the game are still there. None of my friends bothered with LotV multiplayer, only 1 of them actually purchased it solely for the campaign, he tried coop two matches and then was done because it was more of the same.
Of course more missions will bring in some cash flow. But the major problem with SC2 isn't the missions, it's the multiplayer. That's akin to a fighting game that stopped adding to the multiplayer aspect in favor of Vs CPU content. It doesn't make sense. The multiplayer is the true attraction of fighting games the same as RTS. To halt development on the primary attraction, especially when it has issues, in favor of vs CPU development, is not a typical thing for Blizzard to do. They never give up on their games in the past until their in a successful place. But in this case, multiplayer is in a dire need, but they choose to ignore it.
Even with things like coop and archon, they aren't really doing anything substantial to bring new players in to the game at all. It's one of the biggest issues I've mentioned. That means rather than finding ways to improve the games, their simply minimizing losses. Why would casual players stay if they come back and see it's more of the same, and has all the same issues that made them quit? Sure, new modes are nice, but they aren't useful unless the core mechanics and gameplay are brought to a place where they can enjoy it to.
Once they enjoy the actual gameplay again? Then new modes would help a lot! But if players already don't enjoy the core of the game itself, modes aren't going to help that...
Development-wise, their making a very strong point that they feel their development time is better spent elsewhere. I, for one, wish it was spent on SC2's multiplayer. I feel of all Blizzards library, it's the game that needs assistance most right now. But instead of assistance, it's got some of the weakest development from Blizzards part...
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On March 01 2016 08:15 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 07:42 lestye wrote:On March 01 2016 06:24 Spyridon wrote:On March 01 2016 05:49 lestye wrote:On March 01 2016 01:52 Spyridon wrote:On February 29 2016 16:08 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 29 2016 14:52 Spyridon wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams. Much of the teams are shared. Even David Kim was announced to have been working on Heroes. SC2 and Heroes are both worked on by "Team 1". Team 1 is the team that works on all of the Blizzard RTS-style games (WC/SC/Heroes).
That's exactly the reason why so many people are upset. It's not like Blizz doesn't have the manpower, or the quality of designers available, or the funds to do it. They simply have not chosen to and put other games as a higher priority. Which is alarming since this is pretty much the first time Blizzard has treated a game this way. It's in the state it's in by choice.
Which, btw, is also part of the reason people suspect they might just be working on another RTS. i don't think both Sigaty and Browder are lying or intentionally misleading Blizzard followers. ATVI is not funding another RTS because it generates too little revenue. LotV won't even make $0.1 Billion and the entire SC franchise since JUly 2010 has contributed less than 1.5% to ATVI's revenue stream. Sigaty said nothing will step on SC2's toes or enter its market-space for 10 years. i don't think he is hiding anything. he was careful about how he expressed himself to make sure he as not misleading the questioner. "Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams" its not a "popular belief" unless you're prepared to say Browder is outright lying. Browder stated teh Team-1 consists of 80 people and the Heroes team consists of 140 people. His tweets came within a week of each other. If you think he is bullshitting or intentionally misleading people with "slippery language" then call him out on it... and see what happens. here is the info i have based on sources i trust. The SC2 quote of 80 https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/697180199473934338The Heroes quote of 140+ https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/694939451701612544if you have sources to back your points you should include them. It's not "intentionally lying or misleading followers". It's called PR. It's why only certain members of the Blizz teams have authority to mention things like that. BTW, look at how many years it's been. If they announce a game at Blizzcon this year it would be released at the 10 year mark. Just because they have 80 people working on SC2, and 140 working on Heroes, doesn't mean those 80 people are not working on Heroes as well. Team 1 is the team that worked on BOTH SC2 and Heroes. Blizzard teams are NOT exclusive outside of lead positions. Notice how he NEVER stated that those people work "exclusively" on said game? I'm at work right now, but the development being with team 1 is public knowledge. Just doing a quick google of a source: http://heroes.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/heroes-of-the-storm-developer-qa-part-2-jan-22-2014-transcriptAn example quote: Kaeo– I am fortunate enough to have been here for 12 years. A little bit over 12 years at Blizzard now. Started out like a lot of people in our development teams have — in Quality Assurance (QA) sharing testing Warcraft III originally. Tech Support, just testing all the Warcraft in their early days. Also was the recruiter for Blizzard for a long time, the World of Warcraft team, the Cinematics Team, eventually I transitioned into production and I have been doing that for a little over 9 years on Blizzard almost, exclusively on Team 1 — which is the Heroes of the Storm Team and previously the StarCraft. You can also find other posts on Google about how Team 1 has separate sub teams, including an eSports team, that is also mentioned to been utilized by both SC2 and Heroes. Nowhere do they ever mention anything other than Team 1 is the team to work on both games. Blizzard - Team 1 = RTS-style games. Team 2 = WoW. Team 3 = Diablo. Team 4 = Titan/Overwatch. Team 5 = Hearthstone. Some other quotes regarding other RTS: Blizzard has revealed its RTS team may indeed revisit the Warcraft franchise once the last chapter in the StarCraft II story is complete. Speaking to IGN at Gamescom, StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void producer Tim Morten admitted that while the potential is certainly there for StarCraft III focusing on all-new characters, it's not the only option available to them. "It’s very rewarding for us to hear that there’s demand out there for more RTS content in the Warcraft universe so once we’re done with Void I think we’ll get together as a team and talk about what would inspire us to work on next. There’s no question, though, that we’ll consider Warcraft, StarCraft, or even new ideas. Anything is possible." I think the individual esports team is very small insignficant compared to the actual esports team headed up by Kim Phan. Jimmy has already disputed that point with Tim Morten with this interview: http://www.pcgamesn.com/starcraft-ii/starcraft-2-the-next-ten-years"I can’t answer that because honestly we don’t know. Is it possible we work on something that steps on the toes of StarCraft? Yes, but there’s no intention to do that today, which is why I think it’s so critical and important how we treat it and how we continue to improve it and make things better - that matters. I think [StarCraft] absolutely stands as an amazing experience to both celebrate the people that get to that level of skill and quality and also to be able to watch and see that. While it’s possible we would [replace that], I don’t see it happening." Tim Morten is just a producer who just joined the company, the quoted interview is from a Blizzard lifer whose the EXECUTIVE producer The primary point of my post was that Team 1 is in charge of both games, and developers are split between the two games. The fact that they may be working on something on the side is a related point, but not the main point. Considering games are typically developed 1-2 years before they are even announced, it completely fits within the timeline. Either way, as it stands right now, Team 1 is split between SC2 and Heroes, with all the majority of SC development being put in to the mission pack coming out in a few months, and Heroes is getting a hell of a lot more development in the eSports, balancing, and multiplayer departments. The prospect of another RTS in development is just another potential thing that may slow down SC2 development even more. Een Kim Phan has mentioned working on Heroes multiple times. All this talk about "no other games stepping on SC2"... What do you think is happening as we speak when they are putting Heroes development ahead of SC2 and sharing a development team with them? Even by Browders own words Heroes has nearly double the size on their dev team. I completely understand they want to keep up the momentum of Heroes, but the way their treating SC2 is a first for the company. The game is suffering and needs that attention for multiplayer development. But their developing it for mission packs, and focusing their heaviest multiplayer efforts elsewhere. They mean an RTS stepping on SC2. Heroes is a completely different game. It's like what SC2 did when it came out, all the WC3 and foreign BW pros jumped ship for the new game. Also... Heroes needs all the development it can get. The game is incredibly unbalanced, doesn't have a proper drafting screen, lack of bans, there's no actual ranked play, you cant even target anything to see how much health it has. It's a huge mess I disagree, the multiplayer is always welcome for improvements, but you also what content to get people to check back in to SC2, specifically casuals. In a game like Dota or League, you can add a champion or a hero and it gets casuals flocking back to try it out. You can't really do that with units in SC. But if you had new content like Co-Op missions, and mission packs, you have more people checking back and paying attention to the game. It also gives them sustainable income to keep the team back on. I'm sure there's stuff they want to do down the pipeline but it can't be something that only appeals to one part of the fanbase. GRANTED, it's an important one. I guess it's a weird balance, you need to keep the dedicated people who are going to be playing your games for many years happy, as well as attracting old fans to check back in once in a while for a cool patch (which is what SC2 has been lacking because of my previous point of them holding back to put stuff on the back of the box) Things like coop missions didn't really bring people back to the game, because the core issues that people had with the game are still there. None of my friends bothered with LotV multiplayer, only 1 of them actually purchased it solely for the campaign, he tried coop two matches and then was done because it was more of the same. Of course more missions will bring in some cash flow. But the major problem with SC2 isn't the missions, it's the multiplayer. That's akin to a fighting game that stopped adding to the multiplayer aspect in favor of Vs CPU content. It doesn't make sense. The multiplayer is the true attraction of fighting games the same as RTS. To halt development on the primary attraction, especially when it has issues, in favor of vs CPU development, is not a typical thing for Blizzard to do. They never give up on their games in the past until their in a successful place. But in this case, multiplayer is in a dire need, but they choose to ignore it. Even with things like coop and archon, they aren't really doing anything substantial to bring new players in to the game at all. It's one of the biggest issues I've mentioned. That means rather than finding ways to improve the games, their simply minimizing losses. Why would casual players stay if they come back and see it's more of the same, and has all the same issues that made them quit? Sure, new modes are nice, but they aren't useful unless the core mechanics and gameplay are brought to a place where they can enjoy it to. Once they enjoy the actual gameplay again? Then new modes would help a lot! But if players already don't enjoy the core of the game itself, modes aren't going to help that... Development-wise, their making a very strong point that they feel their development time is better spent elsewhere. I, for one, wish it was spent on SC2's multiplayer. I feel of all Blizzards library, it's the game that needs assistance most right now. But instead of assistance, it's got some of the weakest development from Blizzards part...
you don't know that. Blizzard said said it's very popular and that people have been playing it a "TON". If their investing resources in releasing new content for it and balancing it, surely they're getting some return out of it.
It's something to do with their friends that isnt as stressful as 1v1 ladder. There are a bunch of people who wont touch 1v1 ladder because of the stress, which goes into your point where most casuals play the campaign and quit. That's why they're doing more campaign shit.
It goes back to how barely anyone actually did WC3 ladder compared to Arcade and Campaign.
And I have no idea how you think SC2 needs the most development when looking at HOTS/Hearthstone's ladder problems and lacking features. Like I said, the missing stuff from HOTS is just embarassing at this point.
They're working on multiplayer improvements, (like the ladder changes), they're just super slow. Even looking at how many people are on the other teams, everything they do is just slow even if the team in question has double or triple the resources of a team you THINK they're pouring everything into.
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On March 01 2016 08:26 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 08:15 Spyridon wrote:On March 01 2016 07:42 lestye wrote:On March 01 2016 06:24 Spyridon wrote:On March 01 2016 05:49 lestye wrote:On March 01 2016 01:52 Spyridon wrote:On February 29 2016 16:08 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 29 2016 14:52 Spyridon wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams. Much of the teams are shared. Even David Kim was announced to have been working on Heroes. SC2 and Heroes are both worked on by "Team 1". Team 1 is the team that works on all of the Blizzard RTS-style games (WC/SC/Heroes).
That's exactly the reason why so many people are upset. It's not like Blizz doesn't have the manpower, or the quality of designers available, or the funds to do it. They simply have not chosen to and put other games as a higher priority. Which is alarming since this is pretty much the first time Blizzard has treated a game this way. It's in the state it's in by choice.
Which, btw, is also part of the reason people suspect they might just be working on another RTS. i don't think both Sigaty and Browder are lying or intentionally misleading Blizzard followers. ATVI is not funding another RTS because it generates too little revenue. LotV won't even make $0.1 Billion and the entire SC franchise since JUly 2010 has contributed less than 1.5% to ATVI's revenue stream. Sigaty said nothing will step on SC2's toes or enter its market-space for 10 years. i don't think he is hiding anything. he was careful about how he expressed himself to make sure he as not misleading the questioner. "Contrary to popular belief, SC2 and Heroes don't have completely separate teams" its not a "popular belief" unless you're prepared to say Browder is outright lying. Browder stated teh Team-1 consists of 80 people and the Heroes team consists of 140 people. His tweets came within a week of each other. If you think he is bullshitting or intentionally misleading people with "slippery language" then call him out on it... and see what happens. here is the info i have based on sources i trust. The SC2 quote of 80 https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/697180199473934338The Heroes quote of 140+ https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/694939451701612544if you have sources to back your points you should include them. It's not "intentionally lying or misleading followers". It's called PR. It's why only certain members of the Blizz teams have authority to mention things like that. BTW, look at how many years it's been. If they announce a game at Blizzcon this year it would be released at the 10 year mark. Just because they have 80 people working on SC2, and 140 working on Heroes, doesn't mean those 80 people are not working on Heroes as well. Team 1 is the team that worked on BOTH SC2 and Heroes. Blizzard teams are NOT exclusive outside of lead positions. Notice how he NEVER stated that those people work "exclusively" on said game? I'm at work right now, but the development being with team 1 is public knowledge. Just doing a quick google of a source: http://heroes.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/heroes-of-the-storm-developer-qa-part-2-jan-22-2014-transcriptAn example quote: Kaeo– I am fortunate enough to have been here for 12 years. A little bit over 12 years at Blizzard now. Started out like a lot of people in our development teams have — in Quality Assurance (QA) sharing testing Warcraft III originally. Tech Support, just testing all the Warcraft in their early days. Also was the recruiter for Blizzard for a long time, the World of Warcraft team, the Cinematics Team, eventually I transitioned into production and I have been doing that for a little over 9 years on Blizzard almost, exclusively on Team 1 — which is the Heroes of the Storm Team and previously the StarCraft. You can also find other posts on Google about how Team 1 has separate sub teams, including an eSports team, that is also mentioned to been utilized by both SC2 and Heroes. Nowhere do they ever mention anything other than Team 1 is the team to work on both games. Blizzard - Team 1 = RTS-style games. Team 2 = WoW. Team 3 = Diablo. Team 4 = Titan/Overwatch. Team 5 = Hearthstone. Some other quotes regarding other RTS: Blizzard has revealed its RTS team may indeed revisit the Warcraft franchise once the last chapter in the StarCraft II story is complete. Speaking to IGN at Gamescom, StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void producer Tim Morten admitted that while the potential is certainly there for StarCraft III focusing on all-new characters, it's not the only option available to them. "It’s very rewarding for us to hear that there’s demand out there for more RTS content in the Warcraft universe so once we’re done with Void I think we’ll get together as a team and talk about what would inspire us to work on next. There’s no question, though, that we’ll consider Warcraft, StarCraft, or even new ideas. Anything is possible." I think the individual esports team is very small insignficant compared to the actual esports team headed up by Kim Phan. Jimmy has already disputed that point with Tim Morten with this interview: http://www.pcgamesn.com/starcraft-ii/starcraft-2-the-next-ten-years"I can’t answer that because honestly we don’t know. Is it possible we work on something that steps on the toes of StarCraft? Yes, but there’s no intention to do that today, which is why I think it’s so critical and important how we treat it and how we continue to improve it and make things better - that matters. I think [StarCraft] absolutely stands as an amazing experience to both celebrate the people that get to that level of skill and quality and also to be able to watch and see that. While it’s possible we would [replace that], I don’t see it happening." Tim Morten is just a producer who just joined the company, the quoted interview is from a Blizzard lifer whose the EXECUTIVE producer The primary point of my post was that Team 1 is in charge of both games, and developers are split between the two games. The fact that they may be working on something on the side is a related point, but not the main point. Considering games are typically developed 1-2 years before they are even announced, it completely fits within the timeline. Either way, as it stands right now, Team 1 is split between SC2 and Heroes, with all the majority of SC development being put in to the mission pack coming out in a few months, and Heroes is getting a hell of a lot more development in the eSports, balancing, and multiplayer departments. The prospect of another RTS in development is just another potential thing that may slow down SC2 development even more. Een Kim Phan has mentioned working on Heroes multiple times. All this talk about "no other games stepping on SC2"... What do you think is happening as we speak when they are putting Heroes development ahead of SC2 and sharing a development team with them? Even by Browders own words Heroes has nearly double the size on their dev team. I completely understand they want to keep up the momentum of Heroes, but the way their treating SC2 is a first for the company. The game is suffering and needs that attention for multiplayer development. But their developing it for mission packs, and focusing their heaviest multiplayer efforts elsewhere. They mean an RTS stepping on SC2. Heroes is a completely different game. It's like what SC2 did when it came out, all the WC3 and foreign BW pros jumped ship for the new game. Also... Heroes needs all the development it can get. The game is incredibly unbalanced, doesn't have a proper drafting screen, lack of bans, there's no actual ranked play, you cant even target anything to see how much health it has. It's a huge mess I disagree, the multiplayer is always welcome for improvements, but you also what content to get people to check back in to SC2, specifically casuals. In a game like Dota or League, you can add a champion or a hero and it gets casuals flocking back to try it out. You can't really do that with units in SC. But if you had new content like Co-Op missions, and mission packs, you have more people checking back and paying attention to the game. It also gives them sustainable income to keep the team back on. I'm sure there's stuff they want to do down the pipeline but it can't be something that only appeals to one part of the fanbase. GRANTED, it's an important one. I guess it's a weird balance, you need to keep the dedicated people who are going to be playing your games for many years happy, as well as attracting old fans to check back in once in a while for a cool patch (which is what SC2 has been lacking because of my previous point of them holding back to put stuff on the back of the box) Things like coop missions didn't really bring people back to the game, because the core issues that people had with the game are still there. None of my friends bothered with LotV multiplayer, only 1 of them actually purchased it solely for the campaign, he tried coop two matches and then was done because it was more of the same. Of course more missions will bring in some cash flow. But the major problem with SC2 isn't the missions, it's the multiplayer. That's akin to a fighting game that stopped adding to the multiplayer aspect in favor of Vs CPU content. It doesn't make sense. The multiplayer is the true attraction of fighting games the same as RTS. To halt development on the primary attraction, especially when it has issues, in favor of vs CPU development, is not a typical thing for Blizzard to do. They never give up on their games in the past until their in a successful place. But in this case, multiplayer is in a dire need, but they choose to ignore it. Even with things like coop and archon, they aren't really doing anything substantial to bring new players in to the game at all. It's one of the biggest issues I've mentioned. That means rather than finding ways to improve the games, their simply minimizing losses. Why would casual players stay if they come back and see it's more of the same, and has all the same issues that made them quit? Sure, new modes are nice, but they aren't useful unless the core mechanics and gameplay are brought to a place where they can enjoy it to. Once they enjoy the actual gameplay again? Then new modes would help a lot! But if players already don't enjoy the core of the game itself, modes aren't going to help that... Development-wise, their making a very strong point that they feel their development time is better spent elsewhere. I, for one, wish it was spent on SC2's multiplayer. I feel of all Blizzards library, it's the game that needs assistance most right now. But instead of assistance, it's got some of the weakest development from Blizzards part... you don't know that. Blizzard said said it's very popular and that people have been playing it a "TON". If their investing resources in releasing new content for it and balancing it, surely they're getting some return out of it. It's something to do with their friends that isnt as stressful as 1v1 ladder. There are a bunch of people who wont touch 1v1 ladder because of the stress, which goes into your point where most casuals play the campaign and quit. That's why they're doing more campaign shit. It goes back to how barely anyone actually did WC3 ladder compared to Arcade and Campaign. And I have no idea how you think SC2 needs the most development when looking at HOTS/Hearthstone's ladder problems and lacking features. Like I said, the missing stuff from HOTS is just embarassing at this point. They're working on multiplayer improvements, (like the ladder changes), they're just super slow. Even looking at how many people are on the other teams, everything they do is just slow even if the team in question has double or triple the resources of a team you THINK they're pouring everything into.
We can see how popular it is with our own eyes.
Their balancing work has been extremely minor since LotV release, to say the least. A single designer (not even one familiar with coding) could have done all the changes presented to us with the SC editor.
Some of the things you list for HotS are actually intentional design decisions, and some aren't even true. Your opinion on the games balance isn't shared by the pro community for the game, and is definitely not any more questionable than any other moba. Not sure what your problem with the draft interface is, and the game does have ranked play, and you can see how much HP a target has without having to select them first. Either you haven't played the game since alpha, or your just lying.
On the eSports scene, Blizz is still developing HotS, they have had loads of new tournaments, over 2m payout last year, and the game is still growing, and although they haven't gave us numbers, it's obviously still highly profitable if their pumping out content at the rate they are. They are also scaling up the amount of tournaments and payouts this year, and putting a lot of effort in to the next HotD. They have even more tournaments planned for this year than last year, and even more investment in tournament rewards. You see a hell of a lot more growth in the HotS scene than you do in the SC2 scene right now. Just because this site is more focused on SC2 doesn't mean Heroes isn't doing well elsewhere.
You may not like Hearthstone either, but it has the most momentum out of all Blizzards games right now. It's profitable, its competitive in tournaments, and it's bringing in loads of new players. They announced at the end of the year the Hearthstones profitability hit an all time high in Q4 of last year. Look up their financial results, and the insane amount of popularity and activity the game has.
Then look at SC2. Right now it's not even as popular as D3 and D3 was known for its horrendous release. Do you see them scaling up the scene with more eSports support than earlier years? Look at their financial report at the end of the year, do you see any plans laid out for the series like they did with every other of their series'?
The reason their super slow is because the team dedicated to it is extremely small (by Browders own words about half the side) as well as both games are Team 1 games, so the resources are being shared by SC2 and Heroes. Heroes is releasing damn sure more than double the content & balance updates than SC2 is getting right now. It's damn sure more popular overall than SC2 right now, and it's numbers are actually going up rather than down (in both tournament scene and populairty, just look at Twitch performance). And it's obviously more profitable, Blizzard put the development where the money is. And where is the SC2 development? In mission packs, not the multiplayer. The multiplayer and eSports development is being focused on other games. rather than investing more in sc2 tournament payouts, their investing their funds in to Heroes tournament payouts. Does that really not send u any sort of message?
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I get the feeling that people for whom SC2 doesn't have enough strategy aren't ever going to be satisfied with the amount of strategy in an RTS. You'll have to play turn-based games for that. SC2 has an immense amount of strategy but the execution of strategy is a significant factor in determining the winner. Almost every single loss, even at the pro level, has two answers for "how can I turn this into a win?" with one of them coming from "what choice was incorrect?" and the other coming from "how could I have executed better?" If you choose to focus on execution rather than choices, that is your own preference, not because there are no depths of strategy and choices to explore.
I think it'd be possible to make a more strategy-based RTS, but why? I don't think there's any magic to discover in a game that doesn't have the demanding mechanics of SC but isn't turn-based. Maybe I'm the unimaginative naysayer that'll be proven wrong but I just don't get it.
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On March 01 2016 10:12 NonY wrote:I think it'd be possible to make a more strategy-based RTS, but why? I don't think there's any magic to discover in a game that doesn't have the demanding mechanics of SC but isn't turn-based. Maybe I'm the unimaginative naysayer that'll be proven wrong but I just don't get it.
BW, and because it's more fun interesting exciting and you learn more things playing it. Just my opinion.
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