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On February 20 2016 07:06 quesquecest wrote:
The "siege tank pickup into normal tank mode when dropped" seems like the natural conclusion. Surprised Blizz isn't talking about it.
imo,
its too convoluted/complicated/awkward.. i would lengthen the time delay for its 1st shot after the Medivac drops it. but really we're splitting hairs here...
i liked the Siege Tank pickup mechanic , but if they just make the Tank a BAMF through buffs i'm happy.
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On February 20 2016 08:00 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 06:18 Loccstana wrote:What if they buff the siege tank by giving Terran one of the WoL campaign upgrades? ![[image loading]](http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/142946/4882402-siege+tank+-+maelstrom+rounds.jpg) Maelstrom Rounds
Siege tanks do +40 damage to their primary target. Splash damage remains the same.
Maelstrom Rounds have an armor-piercing tip that inflicts devastating damage on the primary target. Splash damage is identical to the standard round.
If siege tanks struck fear into the hearts of our enemies before, they will inspire abject terror when firing the Maelstrom Round. You cannot buff the tanks with this and don't give them overkill. Can you imagine the mayhem this would create with smart fire? Probably not.
With this, siege tanks will have another type of overkill. If you hit a 35hp ling with a 90 damage attack, you just wasted 60% of the dps of the tank. Now good Terran players will need to target fire their tanks against high hp targets.
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On February 20 2016 06:29 CyanApple wrote:
Great changes imo.
It shouldn't be possible for terrans to go mech only, just like it isn't possible for protoss to go robo only. Terrans should have their basic/core units (marines+medivacs) which they supplement with favoured (or situationally necessary) units.
This solves many problems, as there's no need for mech AA and no necessity for a hard transition from mech to air, as you have bio to at least half-effectively trade with air and tanks to put pressure on the opponent at the front, while transitioning. With the update, tanks can get to the front faster by medivacs, without engaging unfairly into defenses, since they have to siege first.
For this to be viable, MMM shouldn't be AS strong on their own as they are right now and supplementary units should have more impact.
The same holds for protoss, as they aswell produce out of production buildings. Their core unit should be stalker (less so the adepts - they should be a situational/harass unit that trades off well in earlygame), as it can fight against ground and air. It is then supplemented with further tech units.
Due to basically the same unit production method, this matchup is to some degree sort of a mirror matchup, in which it is risky to open with tech, as it can be hardcountered.
Against zergs however this is different, as they are not bound to production buildings. As a tradeoff, zergs dont have an early core unit, but can mass-transition easier to put pressure on the oponent later in the game.
Imo this puts the races into perspective and should stop discussions about massive redesigns of certain tech paths.
I have a question, though. Why is it, that an early ravager push is hard to stop and comes with such a low risk? Terrans and protoss can't produce enough air units (or other ravager-countering units) early enough, right?
This is the only problem I see currently after this "test update". To avoid this, ravagers should be delayed (eventhough they are a great counter to reapers due to their range) - their damage doesn't need to be reduced. For that cause and to avoid mass ravagers, spamming biles on immobile targets, their supply should be increased.
Mech play come from the community who love play mech in brood war and they want it back.Even blizzard accepted and also fucked up as usual...
There is nothing to do about logic.
That all.
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These are some quality changes, looks like they are going in the right direction with some core units and how they operate. I am a fan of the changes made to the Siege Tank. It would start to work like the Siege Tank we all want! 
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On February 19 2016 04:35 pure.Wasted wrote:
Siege tank buff is nowhere near enough to mitigate the loss of pickup entirely. Nowhere near.
Look at their example. "Ravagers will take 3 shots to kill down from 4."
3 shots down from 4? In what universe does that make a difference? Terrans don't have 3 Siege tanks out by the time Ravagers hit, and if they did, at least some of those attacks are going to be wasted on Roaches anyway. Except now Tanks can't be evacuated by Medivac, so they don't survive the first one/two volleys regardless. Only place where this matters is the unit tester.
The buff vs Roaches is actually a way bigger deal, although they're playing it down, because it means less cleanup left for the Bio once the tanks are dead.
re: "we wonder if it's good to help Tank vs Protoss because Tanks are not good vs Protoss."
Can someone translate this for me? Are they trying to say that it simply won't change anything? And implying that that's perfectly fine?
I just can't see this siege tank change making it through in current form.
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On February 20 2016 08:52 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 08:00 deacon.frost wrote:On February 20 2016 06:18 Loccstana wrote:What if they buff the siege tank by giving Terran one of the WoL campaign upgrades? Maelstrom Rounds
Siege tanks do +40 damage to their primary target. Splash damage remains the same.
Maelstrom Rounds have an armor-piercing tip that inflicts devastating damage on the primary target. Splash damage is identical to the standard round.
If siege tanks struck fear into the hearts of our enemies before, they will inspire abject terror when firing the Maelstrom Round. You cannot buff the tanks with this and don't give them overkill. Can you imagine the mayhem this would create with smart fire? Probably not. With this, siege tanks will have another type of overkill. If you hit a 35hp ling with a 90 damage attack, you just wasted 60% of the dps of the tank. Now good Terran players will need to target fire their tanks against high hp targets.
No, they won't, because tanks would be crazy OP with that kind of damage. There is hardly any need to target fire now, why would there be such a need if tanks did even more damage? That simply makes zero sense.
I wonder, do some people want to win w/o breaking a sweat or why do such nonsensical suggestions keep being made?
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
re: "we wonder if it's good to help Tank vs Protoss because Tanks are not good vs Protoss."
Can someone translate this for me? Are they trying to say that it simply won't change anything? And implying that that's perfectly fine?
They're saying that the damage changes probably affect protoss the most but that's fine because TvP doesn't see a lot of tank usage and tanks have historically done poorly in the matchup (being used a lot more in tvt and tvz while considered too bad to use against protoss)
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On February 20 2016 11:33 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 08:52 Loccstana wrote:On February 20 2016 08:00 deacon.frost wrote:On February 20 2016 06:18 Loccstana wrote:What if they buff the siege tank by giving Terran one of the WoL campaign upgrades? Maelstrom Rounds
Siege tanks do +40 damage to their primary target. Splash damage remains the same.
Maelstrom Rounds have an armor-piercing tip that inflicts devastating damage on the primary target. Splash damage is identical to the standard round.
If siege tanks struck fear into the hearts of our enemies before, they will inspire abject terror when firing the Maelstrom Round. You cannot buff the tanks with this and don't give them overkill. Can you imagine the mayhem this would create with smart fire? Probably not. With this, siege tanks will have another type of overkill. If you hit a 35hp ling with a 90 damage attack, you just wasted 60% of the dps of the tank. Now good Terran players will need to target fire their tanks against high hp targets. No, they won't, because tanks would be crazy OP with that kind of damage. There is hardly any need to target fire now, why would there be such a need if tanks did even more damage? That simply makes zero sense. I wonder, do some people want to win w/o breaking a sweat or why do such nonsensical suggestions keep being made?
Because it only buffs the primary target? You know the ONE unit the tank is targeting, repeating ONE, no extra damage the splash.
You lack some reading comprehension.
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Tanks should be left alone like they are right now. ANY tweak is gonna take a HUGE amount of time AND REBALANCING ACROSS ALL 3 RACES to make it work (even unsiege after pickup is gonna screw up most timings/terran pressure/most pushes against zerg)
If blizzard wants mech they should look at another direction
(Im a terran and i love the siege pick up micro in tvz specially)
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On February 20 2016 06:18 Loccstana wrote:What if they buff the siege tank by giving Terran one of the WoL campaign upgrades? Maelstrom Rounds
Siege tanks do +40 damage to their primary target. Splash damage remains the same.
Maelstrom Rounds have an armor-piercing tip that inflicts devastating damage on the primary target. Splash damage is identical to the standard round.
If siege tanks struck fear into the hearts of our enemies before, they will inspire abject terror when firing the Maelstrom Round.
I've messed around with a mod with that in it. I did two games where I turtled HARD and it really didn't change much at all. Then I did 4 or so games where I was more aggressive and actually attacked with just a handful (5-7) tanks. +40 might be a bit much though.
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(Zerg player perspective here)
First, I don't think tank pick up should be removed entirely, it should be made an upgrade imo. The only real problem with it right now is that it comes out faster than any reasonable anti-air option. Making it an upgrade makes sense because it will slow it down and also, since tank gets siege mode for free, it gives tanks an essential upgrade again.
Second, I'm a little concerned about the Ravager nerf if only because it makes the Ravager significantly weaker in what I thought was it's original role (siege breaker). I mean, Ravager already lost its range upgrade simply because it was too strong at siege breaking but now I'm predicting it will suck completely vs siege units.
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I don't think any of these changes are bad or uninteresting.
I just think this game is moving way too fast.
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On February 20 2016 13:24 Sif_ wrote:
Tanks should be left alone like they are right now. ANY tweak is gonna take a HUGE amount of time AND REBALANCING ACROSS ALL 3 RACES to make it work (even unsiege after pickup is gonna screw up most timings/terran pressure/most pushes against zerg)
If blizzard wants mech they should look at another direction
(Im a terran and i love the siege pick up micro in tvz specially)
Your stance takes for granted the assumption that SC2 is really really close to perfect as it is. Would you be surprised to learn that "rebalancing across all 3 races" is something that a lot of people actively, explicitly, expressly desire?
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On February 20 2016 06:29 CyanApple wrote:
Great changes imo.
It shouldn't be possible for terrans to go mech only, just like it isn't possible for protoss to go robo only. Terrans should have their basic/core units (marines+medivacs) which they supplement with favoured (or situationally necessary) units.
This solves many problems, as there's no need for mech AA and no necessity for a hard transition from mech to air, as you have bio to at least half-effectively trade with air and tanks to put pressure on the opponent at the front, while transitioning. With the update, tanks can get to the front faster by medivacs, without engaging unfairly into defenses, since they have to siege first.
For this to be viable, MMM shouldn't be AS strong on their own as they are right now and supplementary units should have more impact.
The same holds for protoss, as they aswell produce out of production buildings. Their core unit should be stalker (less so the adepts - they should be a situational/harass unit that trades off well in earlygame), as it can fight against ground and air. It is then supplemented with further tech units.
Due to basically the same unit production method, this matchup is to some degree sort of a mirror matchup, in which it is risky to open with tech, as it can be hardcountered.
Against zergs however this is different, as they are not bound to production buildings. As a tradeoff, zergs dont have an early core unit, but can mass-transition easier to put pressure on the oponent later in the game.
Imo this puts the races into perspective and should stop discussions about massive redesigns of certain tech paths.
I have a question, though. Why is it, that an early ravager push is hard to stop and comes with such a low risk? Terrans and protoss can't produce enough air units (or other ravager-countering units) early enough, right?
This is the only problem I see currently after this "test update". To avoid this, ravagers should be delayed (eventhough they are a great counter to reapers due to their range) - their damage doesn't need to be reduced. For that cause and to avoid mass ravagers, spamming biles on immobile targets, their supply should be increased.
Whenever I see a comment like this I want to shoot myself. Stop this stupid argument. If Terran should be played like Protoss then.. we could just play Protoss. Its Iconic to the Terran race to have two Tech paths. Really just stop it with "I can´t go only Zerglings/Robo so Terrans shouldn´t be able too".
Firstly, lets get one thing straight. Terran has never, ever, relied on a single production facility to win the game short of cheesing or 2010 WoL. We always have support from our other two production facilities. Medivacs and Vikings in HotS and WoL, and now Liberators as well (from the Starport). Tanks and Widow Mine support from the Factory in WoL and HotS respectively.
Our CORE units are dependant purely on what tech path we have chosen. Mech is factory based with starport support, while Bio is barracks based with starport, and often factory support too. Note that this doesn't make it BioMech, rather Bio with support.
Secondly, different races have different needs. Terran cannot simply mix our units together like protoss can due to:
A) Upgrades: Expensive, and all the more so when you consider that you have to do two sets of ground upgrades.
B) Production: both the slowest production and also extremely expensive to make. This is part of the reason why Terran sticks to either Bio, or Mech.
C) Playstyle: Bio is squishy. Little to no splash except for what is provided by W/M or Tank support. Relies on mobility and is heavily micro intensive, especially in order to get the most out of your units. High DPS low damage units. Extremely vulnerable to splash damage, including friendly fire.
Mech by contrast is slow, immobile and tanky. Theyre designed to hold positions and be very positional when engaging the enemy army. Lots of power but low DPS, Mech relies on the strength of its Burst damage to win fights. Also will inflict splash damage if used to close to your own army.
Ultimately, Mech and bio don't play nice with each other. They completely lack any synergy, few support units being the exception.
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On February 20 2016 15:53 vRadiatioNv wrote:
(Zerg player perspective here)
First, I don't think tank pick up should be removed entirely, it should be made an upgrade imo. The only real problem with it right now is that it comes out faster than any reasonable anti-air option. Making it an upgrade makes sense because it will slow it down and also, since tank gets siege mode for free, it gives tanks an essential upgrade again.
Second, I'm a little concerned about the Ravager nerf if only because it makes the Ravager significantly weaker in what I thought was it's original role (siege breaker). I mean, Ravager already lost its range upgrade simply because it was too strong at siege breaking but now I'm predicting it will suck completely vs siege units.
Thats an interesting Idea, I'd be curious to see how games would play out if siege pickup was an upgrade.
Or even the Maelstrom round as an upgrade (damage can be adjusted). The Maelstrom round would be a nice answer to Ultras.
Wonder if anything will change with the Thor and Swarm host, 2 units rarely seen nowadays, especially the latter.
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On February 20 2016 16:22 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 13:24 Sif_ wrote:
Tanks should be left alone like they are right now. ANY tweak is gonna take a HUGE amount of time AND REBALANCING ACROSS ALL 3 RACES to make it work (even unsiege after pickup is gonna screw up most timings/terran pressure/most pushes against zerg)
If blizzard wants mech they should look at another direction
(Im a terran and i love the siege pick up micro in tvz specially) Your stance takes for granted the assumption that SC2 is really really close to perfect as it is. Would you be surprised to learn that "rebalancing across all 3 races" is something that a lot of people actively, explicitly, expressly desire?
Sure, just fire up a beta then. Theres no point in screwing the game for the future year doing this right now.
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they should do something about mass air, it is so boring. increase late game air units supply or something.
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Yes! These changes are so awesome Especially the tank changes ))
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OMG!! THIS IS IT!!!!
SIEGE TANK BUFF!!
Been waiting 3 years for this!
I am going to play all day! :D:D:D:D
EDIT: Did not realize at first that this is just a test map. I hope the changes will go through though!
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On February 20 2016 06:18 Loccstana wrote:What if they buff the siege tank by giving Terran one of the WoL campaign upgrades? Maelstrom Rounds
Siege tanks do +40 damage to their primary target. Splash damage remains the same.
Maelstrom Rounds have an armor-piercing tip that inflicts devastating damage on the primary target. Splash damage is identical to the standard round.
If siege tanks struck fear into the hearts of our enemies before, they will inspire abject terror when firing the Maelstrom Round.
I created a mod for that!
The damage was toned down to +25 because +40 was way too much though. The upgrade costs 150/150, is researched in the techlab and requires Armory.
You can find the mod by searching for "Maelstorm Rounds" on EU and US.
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EPT
