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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16378 Posts
On February 20 2016 00:21 Garmer wrote: the dream come true, damage buff for tanks yay! i still think it need more buff like 45 versus bio + 15 versus armor 45 will 1-shot Marines. i don't think 1-shoting Marines will ever be permitted. I think the highest we'll ever see on the base damage is 44. | ||
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Solstice245
United States145 Posts
So if you think the the removal of the Tankivak is good, what don't you like about a damage buff to compensate? Where you suspecting a buff in another area or no compensation at all? | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
To those who think the siege tank damage buff is not enough: Remember those things have AOE, any buff means more than just the number says. Also from 50 to 60 against armored is huge lol This is most likely the best patch in LotV. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On February 20 2016 00:35 Nazara wrote: While I agree that tank needs a damage buff, flat 40 instead of more vs armored is not the way to go. Vs Z Lings die in 1 shot regardless of upgrades Second splash zone 2 shots lings instead of 3 Because of unit clumping lings are already bad vs tank, they are also bad vs marines and hellbats. Hydralisks die in 2 instead of 3 shots. Roaches die in 3 instead of 5. (no issue here, vs armored should go up anyway) Ravagers (the only early unit that can be too good vs tank) is still 4 shot, no change there whatsoever. Mutalisks need to clump to pick off tanks, meaning they get shredded by liberators/mines even more. Flat damage should be kept at 35, if anything, it's the Ravager health that should go down, not tanks flat damage up. My guess is we gonna see a lot of marine tank liberator pushes killing z before the hive is even started. Or zerg being locked to all in or go Ravager heavy every single game, because other compositions are just going to be so bad. You can just try 1/1 roach ravager that is currently stopped by good tankivac micro. If the 4/5 tanks you can get when it hits are enough to stop it while being picked off by ravager they're probably OP. If not well you can get a the very least a decent advantage. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
On February 20 2016 00:42 JimmyJRaynor wrote: 45 will 1-shot Marines. i don't think 1-shoting Marines will ever be permitted. I think the highest we'll ever see on the base damage is 44. not with the upgrade of +10 shield which will bring marine to a 55 On February 20 2016 00:45 Salteador Neo wrote: Tanks need to be much better against lings than they currently are if they can't be picked up. Hell tanks needed to be this strong in early HoTS too (instead of the free turbo speed for medivacs). To those who think the siege tank damage buff is not enough: Remember those things have AOE, any buff means more than just the number says. Also from 50 to 60 against armored is huge lol This is most likely the best patch in LotV. remember that right now tank is trash if it was not for that lame thing drop with the medivac, so no those buff are not overkill they are needed if anything | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 20 2016 00:45 Salteador Neo wrote: Tanks need to be much better against lings than they currently are if they can't be picked up. Hell tanks needed to be this strong in early HoTS too (instead of the free turbo speed for medivacs). To those who think the siege tank damage buff is not enough: Remember those things have AOE, any buff means more than just the number says. Also from 50 to 60 against armored is huge lol This is most likely the best patch in LotV. Some splash radius math. Pre-Buff, No Upgrades 35 => 17.5 => 8.75 Pre-Buff, +3 Upgrades 44 => 22 => 11 Post-Buff, No Upgrades 40 => 20 => 10 Post-Buff, +3 Upgrades 49 => 24.5 => 12.25 ------------------------ This buff means tanks start out almost as strong as current +3 upgrade tanks--and only get better from there. Some other cool break points: Killing Zealots Old Tank: 5 shots New Tank: 4 shots Killing Stalkers Old Tank: 4 Shots New Tank: 3 Shots Killing Roaches Old Tank: 3 Shots New Tank: 3 Shots Killing Hydralisk: Old Tank: 3 Shots New Tank: 2 Shots (3 with Regen) Killing Zergling: Old Tank: 1 Shot (Upgrades matter) New Tank: 1 Shot (Upgrades don't matter) This means that the new tank is at the right benchmark to be stronger against Protoss, but not *that* much stronger against Zerg. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
I'm sure the splash damage being buffed will make tanks considerably better against zerg too, even if most "basic relationships" don't seem to change. They are the swarm race after all. Roaches, lings and hydras clump a lot. Edit: Also the upgrades might go from 3+2 to 4+1, according to someone else in this thread. | ||
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Xenotolerance
United States464 Posts
On February 20 2016 00:42 Solstice245 wrote: So if you think the the removal of the Tankivak is good, what don't you like about a damage buff to compensate? Where you suspecting a buff in another area or no compensation at all? It's not that, I just don't think it goes far enough. 40+20 is an okay change, but it's status quo for the big picture, so I am nonplussed. I want something on the order of 14 range, 3.0 attack period, and flat 60 damage. That's super strong, so I also want a counterbalance like siege mode being research again, or the siege or unsiege animations to take longer. It's also the case that zerg and protoss both have multiple units that are very, very strong against a unit that cannot move, so this wouldn't necessarily break the game, or even any matchup. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
lings should die in one shoot, it was also the case with BW, why here it should be different if the path even help lings to get closer much faster than in BW? 1. Overkill - SC2 Tanks don't. 2. Attack speed - It doesn't matter if Tank does 100 damage or 35 damage to a ling, the speed of killing is dependant on attack speed a lot - SC2 Tank (even pre-buff) has higher DPS then SC1 Tank. It's 2 seconds cooldown vs 3.15. 3. Splash origin. In SC1, Tank's splash and damage zone originates a bit closer to the Tank, not in the center of the unit. Therefore, Tank in SC2 deals more splash to all the lings running behind and to the side of the ling that is being shot at. It means that by default, Tank already does more damage to groups of units and targeting the center of the ball of units is less important (but still important, the focus is on "less") 4. Unit pathing - in SC1, Lings didn't clump, and damaging/killing more then 5 lings with a Tank shot was a rarity. While you can split 5-10 units before battle, good luck trying to split 30-50 lings. Even if you split them in 5 groups, it's still 6-10 lings per ball. 5. Considering that Ling attack speed has been nerfed from SC1 to SC2 (with 40% adrenal included), and Marine got buffed with 15 HP, and Firebat (Hellbat) now has 120 HP, why would you even suggest that Tank needs to be better vs lings? Use the tools the game has for you. Don't spam Tanks. Protect them with other units. What Tank needs, is a brutal vs armored damage (like 70+), and Ravager HP/range nerf. Tank should be scary to armored units like Ultralisk, Stalker, Roach, Marauder etc. Increasing attack speed helps, but it also contributes to light units being useless, without making the Tank that much better vs armored. It's all about making a composition, not just Tank spam. If anything, Hellbat should get an research upgrade to up it's vs light damage, so they can protect the Tank vs Adepts or Zealots. You can just try 1/1 roach ravager that is currently stopped by good tankivac micro. If the 4/5 tanks you can get when it hits are enough to stop it while being picked off by ravager they're probably OP. If not well you can get a the very least a decent advantage. Thanks, but I have yet to try the 2 hatch Lurker cheese build  I don't like MOBAgers. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
tanks should be stronger by their own, not just building 1-2 for support, tank is for siege not a support unit, in prmis, so it should be able to be massed | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
Blink, Shade, Charge, Bile etc., are all gimmicks. But if you buff Tank to the point where it can handle those gimmicks on its own, then only the gimmicks will be left in the bag of units that are at least somehow efficient vs Tank. And then Blizzard will decide to buff gimmicks, or add gimmicks. Couple of years later, we will see mobacraft, where every unit is a hero with 1-2 active abilities. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
Just pointing out that what has been already built on shaky foundation, is always going to be shaky. | ||
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ivancype
Brazil485 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On February 20 2016 01:48 Nazara wrote: Then the problem are the counters to the Tank, not the Tank itself. Blink, Shade, Charge, Bile etc., are all gimmicks. But if you buff Tank to the point where it can handle those gimmicks on its own, then only the gimmicks will be left in the bag of units that are at least somehow efficient vs Tank. And then Blizzard will decide to buff gimmicks, or add gimmicks. Couple of years later, we will see mobacraft, where every unit is a hero with 1-2 active abilities. That's why some people have started talking about Tanks' range and mobility instead of raw damage output. Tankivac effectively increased Tanks' range, which is why it was such an effective buff even if the gameplay it created wasn't always ideal. A very similar effect can be reached by bringing tank range up from 13 to... well I won't pretend to know up to how much, but you could start with 16 and see how that works. I think it would make a significant difference vs all their hard counters except Adepts. +3-5 range, and bring back overkill to punish severe clumping. Definitely worth trying. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
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Fran_
United States1024 Posts
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Fran_
United States1024 Posts
On February 19 2016 04:33 opisska wrote: Am I the only person in the world who loves tank pickup? I enjoy it too, it sets good players apart. Sad to see it go. | ||
Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
Tank damage buff is probably good. If it deals a ton of damage it's okay to have it unable to be lifted. Players would lose a ton of units before reaching it. In the end it's a design choice: Either a bit stronger and pick-up able (removing siege imo) or much much stronger and no pickup. Not sure which one is the best, personally I think no pick-up at all and great damage creates more interesting plays (un-siege is an ability in the game too, don't forget). Early-game tankivac harass will not be missed too much imo, plenty good alternatives like mine drop, lib harass, hellion runby, banshee, hellbat timing.. Not sure about ravager change, i guess it'd be even less useful to make them vs protoss players that eventually go for immortals and archons, or just midgame immortal stalker timings. Shooting down stationary warp prisms would be even more tedious, and ravagers pretty much tickle immo/archon/(well controlled stalkers) as it is. If Bile is nerfed too hard, it would shut down zerg tech options somewhat and force Z into Lurkers. idk how concerned protoss will be about a 45dmg bile compared to a 60 one and how it'd play out ... but I think nerfing ravager HP might be better, if early ZvP/ZvT attacks is the reason. I'm sure terrans would appreciate 360 SCV surrounds being able to kill ravagers somewhat quicker for example :X | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
On February 20 2016 02:11 pure.Wasted wrote: That's why some people have started talking about Tanks' range and mobility instead of raw damage output. Tankivac effectively increased Tanks' range, which is why it was such an effective buff even if the gameplay it created wasn't always ideal. A very similar effect can be reached by bringing tank range up from 13 to... well I won't pretend to know up to how much, but you could start with 16 and see how that works. I think it would make a significant difference vs all their hard counters except Adepts. +3-5 range, and bring back overkill to punish severe clumping. Definitely worth trying. i like the range buff, it can be done via upgrade i presume, so it make tanks stronger medium-late game when all the hard counter enter in play massively | ||
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