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On February 21 2016 01:03 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 06:29 CyanApple wrote:
Great changes imo.
It shouldn't be possible for terrans to go mech only, just like it isn't possible for protoss to go robo only. Terrans should have their basic/core units (marines+medivacs) which they supplement with favoured (or situationally necessary) units. It's alot easier to go robo + gates than factory + barracks. It's rather dishonest to try and argue that, considering that robo + gate has a single upgrade path, whereas factory + barracks has two. You can't just sprinkle 0-0 units into your army, not if you want to do something with them. Especially not marines. So i assume now that you're advocating either: putting mech attack/armor and bio attack/armor back into one upgrade, so you only have the two paths of air attack/armor and ground attack/armor (just like protoss), or that protoss should also have to upgrade robo decoupled from warpgate. Did i read that right?
You forgot that Protoss units have 3 upgrades and that shields are among the most expensive upgrades in the game. Also compare the cost of stim, CS and combat shields to that of charge, blink and resonating glaives.
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On February 21 2016 01:02 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 00:55 DomeGetta wrote:On February 20 2016 20:46 MJesk wrote:
Remove siege tank pickup? Have they lost their mind? It can hardly be overstated how exciting the siege tank pickup made every terran matchup. Let them move their stuff around! Did we really like a mech terran sitting on 3 bases for 30 minutes in HotS that much? Can't emphasize this enough. Take tankevac away and you are talking borderline game killer imo. Does no one remember the end of HOTS?? I wouldn't be surprised if no one did - because no one was watching. 50 min long tvt where turtle mass raven/viking and see who can hold out and not attack longer ftw... Also tvz was almost as bad - every game was mech (which it will become again) and u got to see the terran turtle for 45 min while the zerg took the whole map - hour long game end in one big engage that only happened when one of the players lost their mind with boredom.. Even at mid masters level - this made me stop playing and watching hots. Isn't the whole point of starting with more workers and less minerals trying to increase view-ability and game speed / action? This is going to reverse 100% of that in all terran matchups (except maybe tvp) - please guys - think about it. How it looks like: medivac cannot pick up sieged tanks. How it feels like: siege mode damage is reduced to 10. Come on, terran's medivac drops were already very effective. This will mainly affect TvT.
It will definitely affect TvT - in a horrendous unbearable way (avilo heaven!)
But it will absolutely affect TvZ as well - their are multiple pushes that you 100% need tankivac to hold.
Basically any ravager or nydus push before the 6 min mark you will not have enough bio and bile makes the bunkers become moot. Liberators are only good bc you can zone the ravagers with tanks - without that you are gonna get fucked. I think its hilarious that they are talking about changing it because of TvT though.. a matchup that actually can't be imbalanced.. lets make it a turtle fest and fuck up tvz (I don't think it will be too awful tvp except vs some of the early shenan but not too sure about it)
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United Kingdom20274 Posts
It's alot easier to go robo + gates than factory + barracks. It's rather dishonest to try and argue that, considering that robo + gate has a single upgrade path, whereas factory + barracks has two. You can't just sprinkle 0-0 units into your army, not if you want to do something with them. Especially not marines.
Widow Mines, Cyclones, Tanks don't rely on upgrades nearly as much as units like marines. You can easily - and have done in the past - play a comp like marine tank while upgrading only the marines for a while.
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seriously if whats bothering you guys that SIEGE TANKS shouldnt be mobile just rename the unit to COOL TANKS or whatever...i dont mind it being "dumb design" or something along those lines, its fun to watch/play (except to play in tvt lategame) and taking it away would mess with the whole game
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On February 21 2016 01:44 Sif_ wrote:
seriously if whats bothering you guys that SIEGE TANKS shouldnt be mobile just rename the unit to COOL TANKS or whatever...i dont mind it being "dumb design" or something along those lines, its fun to watch/play (except to play in tvt lategame) and taking it away would mess with the whole game
Except it's not fun to watch or play - especially not play against - for everyone. For me it's as much fun as Colossus deathballs of the past. The same things that make the Colossus a bad and boring unit (siege range paired with mobility) also make Tankivacs bad and boring.
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Wow! Blizzard finally did all the stuff they really needed to do!
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So what i'm getting from this is you nerf ravagers for zvp, that has an effect in all match ups and buff tanks insanely for TvT but not taking into account how they would affect roaches? smh gg
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Remove tankivac.... I'll just switch to toss, seriously why? It is the best part of LotV for Terran players. If a Thor can be lifted so should a freaking tank.
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United Kingdom20274 Posts
There's plenty of room for mobile, microable terran units - just not on the Siege Tank. You can't weaken a unit whose core identity is to be immobile but strong in order for it to be balanced while mobile.
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On February 21 2016 01:56 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 01:44 Sif_ wrote:
seriously if whats bothering you guys that SIEGE TANKS shouldnt be mobile just rename the unit to COOL TANKS or whatever...i dont mind it being "dumb design" or something along those lines, its fun to watch/play (except to play in tvt lategame) and taking it away would mess with the whole game Except it's not fun to watch or play - especially not play against - for everyone. For me it's as much fun as Colossus deathballs of the past. The same things that make the Colossus a bad and boring unit (siege range paired with mobility) also make Tankivacs bad and boring.
This is dishonest since Toss had tankivacs in BW that dealt 100 flat damage--and people were fine.
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On February 21 2016 03:07 BLAiNER wrote:
So what i'm getting from this is you nerf ravagers for zvp, that has an effect in all match ups and buff tanks insanely for TvT but not taking into account how they would affect roaches? smh gg
I already did the math. It takes the same number of shots to kill roaches.
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On February 21 2016 01:03 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 06:29 CyanApple wrote:
Great changes imo.
It shouldn't be possible for terrans to go mech only, just like it isn't possible for protoss to go robo only. Terrans should have their basic/core units (marines+medivacs) which they supplement with favoured (or situationally necessary) units. It's alot easier to go robo + gates than factory + barracks. It's rather dishonest to try and argue that, considering that robo + gate has a single upgrade path, whereas factory + barracks has two. You can't just sprinkle 0-0 units into your army, not if you want to do something with them. Especially not marines. So i assume now that you're advocating either: putting mech attack/armor and bio attack/armor into one upgrade, so you only have the two paths of air attack/armor and ground attack/armor (just like protoss), or that protoss should also have to upgrade robo decoupled from warpgate. Did i read that right?
Yes, I would recommend combining those upgrades. Also I thought of something like a mobility vs damage tech path, but didn't want to take my comment too far. Ty for reading good intentions in it.
Btw I didn't mean to say that terran has to be designed the same way protoss is, but I saw their common ground in terms of unit production and came to the conclusion that having core units around which the army is built makes more sense, than having 2 or even 3 tech paths that are self-sufficient, i.e. every tech path has equally good AA and AG units.
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On February 20 2016 17:32 Sif_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 16:22 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 20 2016 13:24 Sif_ wrote:
Tanks should be left alone like they are right now. ANY tweak is gonna take a HUGE amount of time AND REBALANCING ACROSS ALL 3 RACES to make it work (even unsiege after pickup is gonna screw up most timings/terran pressure/most pushes against zerg)
If blizzard wants mech they should look at another direction
(Im a terran and i love the siege pick up micro in tvz specially) Your stance takes for granted the assumption that SC2 is really really close to perfect as it is. Would you be surprised to learn that "rebalancing across all 3 races" is something that a lot of people actively, explicitly, expressly desire? Sure, just fire up a beta then. Theres no point in screwing the game for the future year doing this right now.
Good thing that we have a PTR for testing changes before they impact the game, then. Just like a beta.
Edit: that's ignoring the fact that LOTV was launched prematurely and is basically in a beta right now, in all but name.
Your position basically boils down to "so what if the game is only ok, or actually shit? We're stuck with it." I wouldn't agree with that even if there was no PTR.
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On February 21 2016 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 01:56 CheddarToss wrote:On February 21 2016 01:44 Sif_ wrote:
seriously if whats bothering you guys that SIEGE TANKS shouldnt be mobile just rename the unit to COOL TANKS or whatever...i dont mind it being "dumb design" or something along those lines, its fun to watch/play (except to play in tvt lategame) and taking it away would mess with the whole game Except it's not fun to watch or play - especially not play against - for everyone. For me it's as much fun as Colossus deathballs of the past. The same things that make the Colossus a bad and boring unit (siege range paired with mobility) also make Tankivacs bad and boring. This is dishonest since Toss had tankivacs in BW that dealt 100 flat damage--and people were fine.
Yep, in BW. A game with a lot less unit clumping and rather odd pathing. A good percentage of the shots did no damage. And let's not forget that every shot cost minerals and that you needed highest tech to research shuttle speed, whereas medivacs have boost right away.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Also tvz was almost as bad - every game was mech (which it will become again) and u got to see the terran turtle for 45 min while the zerg took the whole map - hour long game end in one big engage that only happened when one of the players lost their mind with boredom..
I hate posts like this. You're ignoring the reason behind this.
It was like this, because where the tank was so bad and the swarm host so broken there was literally no other option but to turtle.
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So many great changes in this balance map, as supported by these polls. I can't wait for the return of TvT.
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On February 21 2016 06:39 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +Also tvz was almost as bad - every game was mech (which it will become again) and u got to see the terran turtle for 45 min while the zerg took the whole map - hour long game end in one big engage that only happened when one of the players lost their mind with boredom..
I hate posts like this. You're ignoring the reason behind this. It was like this, because where the tank was so bad and the swarm host so broken there was literally no other option but to turtle.
That was also because Zerg had no way to break a meching Terran and had to Rely on the swarmhost against a decent meching Terran...
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On February 21 2016 06:39 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +Also tvz was almost as bad - every game was mech (which it will become again) and u got to see the terran turtle for 45 min while the zerg took the whole map - hour long game end in one big engage that only happened when one of the players lost their mind with boredom..
I hate posts like this. You're ignoring the reason behind this. It was like this, because where the tank was so bad and the swarm host so broken there was literally no other option but to turtle.
It's the other way around, you had way more turtle mech once the SwarmHost had been removed from the game, because it was a guaranteed win if you remained patience. I never bought this argument of terran turtling with tank only because it's too weak, as long as it is the best option they'll keep doing it. Even if it is only viable some will play like this as it is an easy way to play the game, even if the tanks is buffed so much it allow you to move out (which will make bio/tank absolutely broken by the way).
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On February 21 2016 06:45 PressureSC2 wrote:
So many great changes in this balance map, as supported by these polls. I can't wait for the return of TvT.
I don't think I've ever seen every change get overwhelming support before. David Kim is definitely starting to understand what the community wants.
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