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On February 21 2016 09:35 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 06:39 Qikz wrote:Also tvz was almost as bad - every game was mech (which it will become again) and u got to see the terran turtle for 45 min while the zerg took the whole map - hour long game end in one big engage that only happened when one of the players lost their mind with boredom..
I hate posts like this. You're ignoring the reason behind this. It was like this, because where the tank was so bad and the swarm host so broken there was literally no other option but to turtle. It's the other way around, you had way more turtle mech once the SwarmHost had been removed from the game, because it was a guaranteed win if you remained patience. I never bought this argument of terran turtling with tank only because it's too weak, as long as it is the best option they'll keep doing it. Even if it is only viable some will play like this as it is an easy way to play the game, even if the tanks is buffed so much it allow you to move out (which will make bio/tank absolutely broken by the way).
Tanks where shit in HotS, you turtled because mass BC/raven/viking was strong not because siege tanks was.
If you see the super long turtle mech games the final composition was always more about the mass air and less about the tanks.
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ravager:
i was thinking about cutting the damage to flat 30 (1/2), and reducing cooldown to 2/3 as of now. it would result in 3/4 dps, a bit more responsive bile attack (less counterplay/micro). less damage on static units/defenses, but more consistent shots on slow moving units. a bit better against slow air, maybe.
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On February 21 2016 07:16 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 06:39 Qikz wrote:Also tvz was almost as bad - every game was mech (which it will become again) and u got to see the terran turtle for 45 min while the zerg took the whole map - hour long game end in one big engage that only happened when one of the players lost their mind with boredom..
I hate posts like this. You're ignoring the reason behind this. It was like this, because where the tank was so bad and the swarm host so broken there was literally no other option but to turtle. That was also because Zerg had no way to break a meching Terran and had to Rely on the swarmhost against a decent meching Terran...
The period of hots after the sh change clearly demonstrated this wasn't true.
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sc2 will still be dead if they doint fix tvp
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On February 21 2016 06:39 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +Also tvz was almost as bad - every game was mech (which it will become again) and u got to see the terran turtle for 45 min while the zerg took the whole map - hour long game end in one big engage that only happened when one of the players lost their mind with boredom..
I hate posts like this. You're ignoring the reason behind this. It was like this, because where the tank was so bad and the swarm host so broken there was literally no other option but to turtle.
After the SH change Terrans meched even more often.. The last few months of HotS TvZ were turtle mech into slow push majority of the time. Pretty much everyone hated it. Especially Zergs I imagine 
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On February 21 2016 06:11 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 21 2016 01:56 CheddarToss wrote:On February 21 2016 01:44 Sif_ wrote:
seriously if whats bothering you guys that SIEGE TANKS shouldnt be mobile just rename the unit to COOL TANKS or whatever...i dont mind it being "dumb design" or something along those lines, its fun to watch/play (except to play in tvt lategame) and taking it away would mess with the whole game Except it's not fun to watch or play - especially not play against - for everyone. For me it's as much fun as Colossus deathballs of the past. The same things that make the Colossus a bad and boring unit (siege range paired with mobility) also make Tankivacs bad and boring. This is dishonest since Toss had tankivacs in BW that dealt 100 flat damage--and people were fine. Yep, in BW. A game with a lot less unit clumping and rather odd pathing. A good percentage of the shots did no damage. And let's not forget that every shot cost minerals and that you needed highest tech to research shuttle speed, whereas medivacs have boost right away.
If you're arguing that you perceive it to be harder that's one thing. But the strategy was EXACTLY the same. People were perfectly fine with a mobile long range aoe unit killing 5-6 units at a time. Siege Tank doesn't even kill that many lings at a time.
People LOVE the strategy.
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No tankivac = TvT 50min turtle game.
Ultras still op, Cyclone never works, Ghost still a unit no one use and is supposed to be good.
How long it will take to balance LOTV? Because I'm reading too many different point of views about the metagame.
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On February 21 2016 15:43 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 06:11 CheddarToss wrote:On February 21 2016 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 21 2016 01:56 CheddarToss wrote:On February 21 2016 01:44 Sif_ wrote:
seriously if whats bothering you guys that SIEGE TANKS shouldnt be mobile just rename the unit to COOL TANKS or whatever...i dont mind it being "dumb design" or something along those lines, its fun to watch/play (except to play in tvt lategame) and taking it away would mess with the whole game Except it's not fun to watch or play - especially not play against - for everyone. For me it's as much fun as Colossus deathballs of the past. The same things that make the Colossus a bad and boring unit (siege range paired with mobility) also make Tankivacs bad and boring. This is dishonest since Toss had tankivacs in BW that dealt 100 flat damage--and people were fine. Yep, in BW. A game with a lot less unit clumping and rather odd pathing. A good percentage of the shots did no damage. And let's not forget that every shot cost minerals and that you needed highest tech to research shuttle speed, whereas medivacs have boost right away. If you're arguing that you perceive it to be harder that's one thing. But the strategy was EXACTLY the same. People were perfectly fine with a mobile long range aoe unit killing 5-6 units at a time. Siege Tank doesn't even kill that many lings at a time. People LOVE the strategy.
reavers didnt have as long range as siegetanks. and because of the nature of the scarab you would try to land as close as possible to your target. honestly its closer to the disruptor drop. On top of that the reaver allowed for interactions that are not possible from the siege tank besides splitting: for example The dmg of the scarab gets applied after it explodes, meaning you only receive half damage if you run away into the 50% splash zone.
Even then, the reaver has a severe overkill compared to the smartfire siegetank(none) and isnt directly designed around space control. Fyi 1 placed cheap (75 minerals) turret prevented a shuttle from passing through that area even with speed upgrade. Medivacs that heal ridiculously strong infantry units and can boost past more expensive defensive structures were bad enough. But now you can drop instantly sieged smartfire tanks. The strategy isnt even close to similiar. And even if it would be: the nature of both games are different enough to say: It worked in BW, it may work in sc2 put people are not happy about it beeing put on a unit, which purpose it is to space control (which is something sc2 loses more and more with every patch/expansion).
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On February 21 2016 15:43 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2016 06:11 CheddarToss wrote:On February 21 2016 04:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 21 2016 01:56 CheddarToss wrote:On February 21 2016 01:44 Sif_ wrote:
seriously if whats bothering you guys that SIEGE TANKS shouldnt be mobile just rename the unit to COOL TANKS or whatever...i dont mind it being "dumb design" or something along those lines, its fun to watch/play (except to play in tvt lategame) and taking it away would mess with the whole game Except it's not fun to watch or play - especially not play against - for everyone. For me it's as much fun as Colossus deathballs of the past. The same things that make the Colossus a bad and boring unit (siege range paired with mobility) also make Tankivacs bad and boring. This is dishonest since Toss had tankivacs in BW that dealt 100 flat damage--and people were fine. Yep, in BW. A game with a lot less unit clumping and rather odd pathing. A good percentage of the shots did no damage. And let's not forget that every shot cost minerals and that you needed highest tech to research shuttle speed, whereas medivacs have boost right away. If you're arguing that you perceive it to be harder that's one thing. But the strategy was EXACTLY the same. People were perfectly fine with a mobile long range aoe unit killing 5-6 units at a time. Siege Tank doesn't even kill that many lings at a time. People LOVE the strategy.
It's not exactly the same. Siege tanks and Reavers differ in one very important aspect: target acquisition.
While Reavers can't shoot over cliffs or onto the high ground, STs can do that provided they have vision. Being able to pick up and drop STs in siege mode, without ever risking the units, allows for a huge abuse potential.
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On February 19 2016 04:26 90ti wrote:
lol, "fulfilling their fantasy"
Nothing to lol at. To create an engaging game, it is the right approach to make units more than just board pieces.
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As a mech player I don't worry much about the TvZ matchups. Mech is obviously boosted a bit, but terran as race overall got a boost and nerf, so it is fine probably. TvP might see some high level mech games until protoss realise how again they have to kill mech.
Only, despite playing mech myself, I do wonder a bit if this does not kill bio in TvT. Because in the other match ups it is a boost + a nerf. For bio in TvT it is more like a double nerf. On the other hand of course in LotV you need to expand faster, something mech really isn't good at. Still that won't help with defending timing pushes.
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On February 20 2016 08:52 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 08:00 deacon.frost wrote:On February 20 2016 06:18 Loccstana wrote:What if they buff the siege tank by giving Terran one of the WoL campaign upgrades? ![[image loading]](http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/142946/4882402-siege+tank+-+maelstrom+rounds.jpg) Maelstrom Rounds
Siege tanks do +40 damage to their primary target. Splash damage remains the same.
Maelstrom Rounds have an armor-piercing tip that inflicts devastating damage on the primary target. Splash damage is identical to the standard round.
If siege tanks struck fear into the hearts of our enemies before, they will inspire abject terror when firing the Maelstrom Round. You cannot buff the tanks with this and don't give them overkill. Can you imagine the mayhem this would create with smart fire? Probably not. With this, siege tanks will have another type of overkill. If you hit a 35hp ling with a 90 damage attack, you just wasted 60% of the dps of the tank. Now good Terran players will need to target fire their tanks against high hp targets.
Funny. When the Colossus did it it was a stupid a-move unit. When tanks do it it's MICRO.
ugh.
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Why do tanks instant hit anyway? They're basically the same as ravagers' corrosive bile, but with auto-cast and instant damge. There should be at least a second delay between the tank firing and the projectile hitting, allowing the target to move out of the way.
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In this case they'd need about double damage x)
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On February 22 2016 00:57 Haukinger wrote:
Why do tanks instant hit anyway? They're basically the same as ravagers' corrosive bile, but with auto-cast and instant damge. There should be at least a second delay between the tank firing and the projectile hitting, allowing the target to move out of the way.
Lol i just thought of the wc2 ballista and catapult. If we want to keep high dmg and tankivac the shots should be avoidable.
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On February 22 2016 00:57 Haukinger wrote:
Why do tanks instant hit anyway? They're basically the same as ravagers' corrosive bile, but with auto-cast and instant damge. There should be at least a second delay between the tank firing and the projectile hitting, allowing the target to move out of the way.
yea but also make them able to move while sieged up, hit air, and move faster on creep.
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each siege tank should be as powerful as sgt. hammer in heroes of the storm.
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On February 21 2016 04:38 Cyro wrote:
There's plenty of room for mobile, microable terran units - just not on the Siege Tank. You can't weaken a unit whose core identity is to be immobile but strong in order for it to be balanced while mobile.
I don't know if that's the case. Many people would say that: micro is what is fun in SC2. SC2 is so defined around super dynamic action with fast-moving units, large armies, high fire power and twitch reactions that if you can't use the tank like that then it can't thrive in SC2. The simple law of: mobile = fun, immobile = boring holds virtually always, this notion that you can just ignore this and try for something different with the siege tank so that it can stay closer to its concept and its BW roots runs the risk of ignoring the evidence of players really enjoying the tankivac micro. I'm not saying it isn't stupid, but if it's fun then it's fun regardless of concept.
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Fun for whom? The player abusing Tankivacs or the player having to deal with that BS?
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EPT
