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On February 09 2016 20:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
What are you talking about cheddartoss. There was plenty of HotS warp prism harrass, especially with the speed upgrade. perhaps not in PvP but certainly in the other matchups. There reason there isn't as much deathball syndrome in LotV is because of the strength of adepts and the nerf of the collosus.
Point me to a vod with Protoss harass in HotS that resembles the harass in LotV.
And why are people calling for further nerfs to Protoss, when the race can hardly keep up as is, especially in PvZ?
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cheddartoss. I cannot count the games protoss won because of warpprism sentry warpin at the ramp. Dt harass with warpprism was also a thing. And in midgame you often had a warpprism to harass terran. It was already fine in HotS and is now a bit stronger in combination with adepts and also because the defense is stronger with pylon overcharge and tanky adepts. But pickuprange...
The warpprism already has an advantage compared to for example medivacdrops. You do just invest 200 minerals after the tech is done.
If you send in a full medivac you invest more and you have to think about how much it will hurt my core army, am i going to be attacked etc.
This is completely not the thing for warpprisms. you can decide just outside of the base if you want to fill it with units and then warpin and how many units you want to warpin at this moment or if you want to warp in at home to defend.
The later the stage of the game the more units you can warpin. That can also be a thing for the other races.
That is all fine and that is what i like about the warpprism. Each race has different drop potentials.
But if you have the pickuprange it is a little bit too unforgiving.
It would be fine for me if other things of the protoss army were buffed instead and this one gets nerfed.
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The old problem remains:
We all want a mech/ tank buff but then bio + tank compositions get too strong.
The thing to do then is to nerf bio by standards of logic. In the current scenario I would think about increasing marauder gas costs to something like 50 or inbetween 25 and 50. Introduce a late upgrade for marauders that justifies their higher costs in lategame (e.g. which unlocks after 3-3 bio is researched).
The same thing about liberator and ravagers. Liberators need to be nerfed severely from a design point of view. They are just alot too strong when comparing them with banshees and vikings.
Zerg roach/hydra style actually needed something to better deal with bio and bio drops and not something to better deal with mech.
Therefore: Roaches should morph into lurkers and hydras into ravagers (of course balance adustments for both units in their new position).
- Lurker morphing only with lair or even after lair+upgrade like in BW.
- It is wrong to assume that lurkers must stay on hydras as they were on hydras in BW. Hydras were a t1 unit and now are a t2 unit. The new t1 unit that is on the position the hydra was in BW is the roach. Lurkers wont get a good position in the meta when they stay on top of t2 hydras. Ravagers should come later into the game in order to face mech style and not as early as now. Another option is to switch hydra and roach position, but I don't like that one. Then liberators must get adjusted to this.
This would do the trick I am sure.
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On February 09 2016 21:16 SpecKROELLchen wrote:
cheddartoss. I cannot count the games protoss won because of warpprism sentry warpin at the ramp. Dt harass with warpprism was also a thing. And in midgame you often had a warpprism to harass terran. It was already fine in HotS and is now a bit stronger in combination with adepts and also because the defense is stronger with pylon overcharge and tanky adepts. But pickuprange...
The warpprism already has an advantage compared to for example medivacdrops. You do just invest 200 minerals after the tech is done.
If you send in a full medivac you invest more and you have to think about how much it will hurt my core army, am i going to be attacked etc.
This is completely not the thing for warpprisms. you can decide just outside of the base if you want to fill it with units and then warpin and how many units you want to warpin at this moment or if you want to warp in at home to defend.
The later the stage of the game the more units you can warpin. That can also be a thing for the other races.
That is all fine and that is what i like about the warpprism. Each race has different drop potentials.
But if you have the pickuprange it is a little bit too unforgiving.
It would be fine for me if other things of the protoss army were buffed instead and this one gets nerfed.
Sentry at the ramp is a gimmick which I hate very much and DT drop is a risky drop. Neither of the two are standard play, nor something you do every game. Terrans use drops every game, since they get Medivacs regardless, because of healing. The WP has needed lower drop risk since WoL, and the pickup range is just that. It's reducing risk of losing units and makes drops for Protoss more viable. It's the same as medivac boost.
For me the pickup range and the Adept are the most exciting things about Protoss in LotV. Of course Terrans and Zerg hate playing against it. But guess what, I as a Protoss hate playing against WM drops, Libs sieging my mineral line, super early speedling drops and Roach/Ravager timings. Most things in this game are not fun, when you are on the receiving end. Just accept that and stop calling for nerfs where none are needed.
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Is anyone else finding these forced neologisms somewhat funny and a bit cringeworthy? "Tankivacs", "Speedivacs"... did anyone ever used a term "Thorivacs" yet? Or "Doomdropivacs"? "Harassivacs" anyone?
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Finland132 Posts
What? I would trade Medivacs for Warp Prisms anyday. I would like to warp infinite amount of Marines and Marauders directly to your base and do all that just for risking 200 minerals that the dropship MAY get killed along the way. Warp Prism is actually so bad design that it really makes my head hurt. Sometimes you hear people bitching about "Why are you pulling your whole army to defend one Medivac?" That is true, why? But against Warp Prism you MUST bring your whole army because there is a whole army in your base. If Terran wants to drop 20 units it needs like 5 Medivacs. This is a risk for the terran player since if those get killed before the drop actually happens, you have just lost the game. If you were protoss however, you only lost 200 minerals. AT LEAST Warp Prism should cost some gas. Warp Prism is ultimately the best dropship in the game and design-wise, most retarded.
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On February 09 2016 13:37 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 13:31 Loccstana wrote:On February 09 2016 12:25 CheddarToss wrote:On February 09 2016 12:19 JackONeill wrote:
Something that baffles me is how in the name of David Kim is the warp prism blink pickup still in the game? I don't mind it balance-wise, but GOD how stupid is it that you can overextend 5 range with a harass drop and still get safely into your dropship? It's not different than speedvacs. Both features (pickup range and speed) serve the purpose of being able to do damage and get out of there with minimal loses. That the is the purpose of warp prism speed upgrade. Pickup range buff is overkill and rewards poor play. Pickup range allows for Protoss harass, which wasn't possible before, due to slow movement speed of Protoss units. If you remember, there was only WP harass in WoL/HotS in the late game with chargelots. Now, thanks to pickup range we see Protoss harass which is similar to medivac harass from Terran, which is a good thing, since it allows for more dynamic games, instead of turtlefest with Deathball vs Deathball. WP speed upgrade minimizes the risk of losing high cost units, like disruptors and HTs, but it does nothing for early game harass, because it comes too late. Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 12:42 JackONeill wrote:
Speedivac is dumb in its own way, but at least you can't pickup from a safe distance without commiting the dropship. Even with the boost, you can't drop to close without loosing hitpoints.
Not only with the prism can you do that, but half its healthpool regenerates AND with the speed it's like a permaboosted medivac, so I think my point stands... And which point is that, that the Protoss dropship unit is different than Terran dropship unit? If you want to play an RTS game with different "skins" instead of truly different races, there are a number of other games out there. But if you want an RTS with asymmetric race design, then you have to accept that different races work differently and need units with different stats and features to be balanced.
You obviously have issues understanding the concept of risk/reward/ Being able to harass without risking anything is stupid. I'm not saying it's bad that the WP is different than the medivac, I'm saying it's terrible design that you can basically overcommit like hell and still be able to get away no problem.
As a whole that's the main issue with protoss since WOL. Due to the high cost of options, everything was a high risk/reward thing. Go expo => fast DTs in PvT in WoL? If the guy has 3 turrets you're gonna be his bitch because you won't be ready for the stim/meds timing.
To counterbalance that, blizzard introduced the overcharge, which allows protoss to open with agressive tech but still fall back to insanely strong base defense. However, they also introduced something called the oracle, which is a high cost/garanteed reward unit. It's a unit that allows you to end the game if the opponent isn't prepared, and perma scout with the revelation if he is.
So this protoss dynamic which is "garanteed reward for high cost, while being safe and with no possibilty for the opponent to do anything but suffer it" is terrible, and the new warp prism is all about that. With the speed and a disruptor, you can waltz anywhere on the map, throw a shot, back in the WP even if you overcommitted like hell. Oh and even if you eat some damage, you have 100 hp that regen.
So yeah, my point stands. The WP blink pickup is terrible in design, just like the tankivac that works the same way in a lesser extend in TvZ.
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That is Terran bias talking.
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FFS stop bitching about the warp prism already. Yes it is really good, yes we understand you hate watching it used against your race and no it's not bad design-wise.
It needs to be better than a medivac at dropping stuff, a core unit for the terran race that you get tons of... because that thing also heals and can be pretty fast for free.
I'm sure the reason it doesn't cost gas is because toss is the race that relies on gas the most: 50 for each stalker, 100 for each sentry, immortal and phoenix, 150 for each disruptor, oracle and HT, 200 for each tempest and 300 for each archon.
If you think about it, it makes sense that a race with weak core units (except the new adept) has the strongest units in stuff like the MSC, probes and warp prism.
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I'm trying to wrap my mind around the statement that Warp Prism is high-reward no-risk unit.
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On February 09 2016 20:48 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 20:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
What are you talking about cheddartoss. There was plenty of HotS warp prism harrass, especially with the speed upgrade. perhaps not in PvP but certainly in the other matchups. There reason there isn't as much deathball syndrome in LotV is because of the strength of adepts and the nerf of the collosus. Point me to a vod with Protoss harass in HotS that resembles the harass in LotV. And why are people calling for further nerfs to Protoss, when the race can hardly keep up as is, especially in PvZ?
I love how you went from how apparently Protoss harass wasn't possible before in Hots, to how Lotv protoss harrass isn't the same as Hots. Why does it have to resemble the absurdly powerful LotV harrass, just to prove that protoss harrass existed in HotS? Why ask for LotV harrass in HotS when the warp prism pickup range and adepts don't exist in sc2. It's like asking for speedivac widow mine drops in WoL. Going to be impossible since medivacs didn't have boost in WoL, and widow mines as a unit don't exist. Of course it will resemble drops in general, but it wouldn't resemble it exactly.
But what protoss harrass options existed in Hots? Theres the pheonix and oracle, both powerful harrass options which pro protosses have used well and frequently. There's the warp prism, which could repeatedly warp in an army as large as the number of warpgates you have repeatedly. Sentry drops was a thing in Hots.. Immortal drops was a thing in hotS. Plenty of games in Hots have been won from such harrass options. So it's utter bullshit to say that protoss harrass was not possible in HotS.
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On February 09 2016 22:20 aQuaSC wrote:
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the statement that Warp Prism is high-reward no-risk unit. It certainly isn't a low reward high risk unit. What else would you call a fast moving 200 mineral air unit that can warp in an army repeatedly? It's potential is extremely high, and it isn't a theoretical potential as there has been so many games where protoss won using the warp prism ability to warp in zealots ad infinitum till important tech structures or economy is dead. Is it no risk? No, but nothing is no risk in sc2, but it is very low risk. Unlike Terran who have to risk losing the army inside the medivacs before they can be dropped, if you lose the warp prism before you can warp in, you lose only the cost of the warp prism.
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On February 09 2016 23:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 20:48 CheddarToss wrote:On February 09 2016 20:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
What are you talking about cheddartoss. There was plenty of HotS warp prism harrass, especially with the speed upgrade. perhaps not in PvP but certainly in the other matchups. There reason there isn't as much deathball syndrome in LotV is because of the strength of adepts and the nerf of the collosus. Point me to a vod with Protoss harass in HotS that resembles the harass in LotV. And why are people calling for further nerfs to Protoss, when the race can hardly keep up as is, especially in PvZ? I love how you went from how apparently Protoss harass wasn't possible before in Hots, to how Lotv protoss harrass isn't the same as Hots. Why does it have to resemble the absurdly powerful LotV harrass, just to prove that protoss harrass existed in HotS? Why ask for LotV harrass in HotS when the warp prism pickup range and adepts don't exist in sc2. It's like asking for speedivac widow mine drops in WoL. Going to be impossible since medivacs didn't have boost in WoL, and widow mines as a unit don't exist. Of course it will resemble drops in general, but it wouldn't resemble it exactly. But what protoss harrass options existed in Hots? Theres the pheonix and oracle, both powerful harrass options which pro protosses have used well and frequently. There's the warp prism, which could repeatedly warp in an army as large as the number of warpgates you have repeatedly. Sentry drops was a thing in Hots.. Immortal drops was a thing in hotS. Plenty of games in Hots have been won from such harrass options. So it's utter bullshit to say that protoss harrass was not possible in HotS.
Compared to Terran it was not possible. Now it is on par with Terran drop harass and that is a good thing.
On February 09 2016 23:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 22:20 aQuaSC wrote:
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the statement that Warp Prism is high-reward no-risk unit. It certainly isn't a low reward high risk unit. What else would you call a fast moving 200 mineral air unit that can warp in an army repeatedly? It's potential is extremely high, and it isn't a theoretical potential as there has been so many games where protoss won using the warp prism ability to warp in zealots ad infinitum till important tech structures or economy is dead. Is it no risk? No, but nothing is no risk in sc2, but it is very low risk. Unlike Terran who have to risk losing the army inside the medivacs before they can be dropped, if you lose the warp prism before you can warp in, you lose only the cost of the warp prism.
"Unlike Terran..."
Only a Terran perceives dropping with boosted medivacs as "high risk". And who the hell sends an empty WP to the enemy base, only to warp in directly? Till the units get warped in, workers have long been pulled and the army is on its way to mop up your units. Why do you think people warp in 4 Adepts beforehand and drop them instead of warping them in once the WP has arrived at the enemy base? Your arguments make no sense from Protoss point of view.
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On February 09 2016 21:31 LSN wrote:
The old problem remains:
We all want a mech/ tank buff
I do not think it's true. What is true is that there is indeed a vocal part of the Starcraft community which wants that, but there is also another part which does not believe that mech in Starcraft 2 can be anything else than a rather boring turtle fest and would prefer not risk ruining what is already an excellent game for an arbitrary unit composition that some people want to be viable.
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So basically nerf oracle and nerf warp prisms.
I'd like overlords carrying stuff and invulnerable nydus to be nerfed from zerg. Also ravagers and lurkers if we're at it.
From terran speed from medivacs and Liberators.
Am I doing this right?
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On February 09 2016 23:16 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 23:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 09 2016 20:48 CheddarToss wrote:On February 09 2016 20:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
What are you talking about cheddartoss. There was plenty of HotS warp prism harrass, especially with the speed upgrade. perhaps not in PvP but certainly in the other matchups. There reason there isn't as much deathball syndrome in LotV is because of the strength of adepts and the nerf of the collosus. Point me to a vod with Protoss harass in HotS that resembles the harass in LotV. And why are people calling for further nerfs to Protoss, when the race can hardly keep up as is, especially in PvZ? I love how you went from how apparently Protoss harass wasn't possible before in Hots, to how Lotv protoss harrass isn't the same as Hots. Why does it have to resemble the absurdly powerful LotV harrass, just to prove that protoss harrass existed in HotS? Why ask for LotV harrass in HotS when the warp prism pickup range and adepts don't exist in sc2. It's like asking for speedivac widow mine drops in WoL. Going to be impossible since medivacs didn't have boost in WoL, and widow mines as a unit don't exist. Of course it will resemble drops in general, but it wouldn't resemble it exactly. But what protoss harrass options existed in Hots? Theres the pheonix and oracle, both powerful harrass options which pro protosses have used well and frequently. There's the warp prism, which could repeatedly warp in an army as large as the number of warpgates you have repeatedly. Sentry drops was a thing in Hots.. Immortal drops was a thing in hotS. Plenty of games in Hots have been won from such harrass options. So it's utter bullshit to say that protoss harrass was not possible in HotS. Compared to Terran it was not possible. Now it is on par with Terran drop harass and that is a good thing. Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 23:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 09 2016 22:20 aQuaSC wrote:
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the statement that Warp Prism is high-reward no-risk unit. It certainly isn't a low reward high risk unit. What else would you call a fast moving 200 mineral air unit that can warp in an army repeatedly? It's potential is extremely high, and it isn't a theoretical potential as there has been so many games where protoss won using the warp prism ability to warp in zealots ad infinitum till important tech structures or economy is dead. Is it no risk? No, but nothing is no risk in sc2, but it is very low risk. Unlike Terran who have to risk losing the army inside the medivacs before they can be dropped, if you lose the warp prism before you can warp in, you lose only the cost of the warp prism. "Unlike Terran..." Only a Terran perceives dropping with boosted medivacs as "high risk". And who the hell sends an empty WP to the enemy base, only to warp in directly? Till the units get warped in, workers have long been pulled and the army is on its way to mop up your units. Why do you think people warp in 4 Adepts beforehand and drop them instead of warping them in once the WP has arrived at the enemy base? Your arguments make no sense from Protoss point of view. Is that your sole response? No arguments, just "terran bias" and "just terran perceives". I main Zerg btw.
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On February 09 2016 23:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 22:20 aQuaSC wrote:
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the statement that Warp Prism is high-reward no-risk unit. It certainly isn't a low reward high risk unit. What else would you call a fast moving 200 mineral air unit that can warp in an army repeatedly? It's potential is extremely high, and it isn't a theoretical potential as there has been so many games where protoss won using the warp prism ability to warp in zealots ad infinitum till important tech structures or economy is dead. Is it no risk? No, but nothing is no risk in sc2, but it is very low risk. Unlike Terran who have to risk losing the army inside the medivacs before they can be dropped, if you lose the warp prism before you can warp in, you lose only the cost of the warp prism.
But that's a problem beyond the Warp Prism itself, proxy pylons are virtually the same thing in many instances, so it's more of a discussion about entire warp-in mechanic. For me it's a little too complicated to discuss straight-up about Warp Prism only since if we're talking about balance in higher-level games a lot of factors can come in, you can have Sensor Towers, Turrets, Liberators on patrol, terran can force warp-ins on Protoss so his base is protected or his army has less risk of losing in straight-up engagement etc.
Drops with two or more full Medivacs require much more firepower from Protoss to deal with while not plainly throwing away units (and I believe that if there are more than two of them risk of losing them is smaller, you can't blink under them to snipe them without throwing the Stalkers - and that's a big risk too on the Protoss side), so both Warp Prism and Medivac assaults require precautions and counter-measures put before the attack. I'm not playing depending entirely on Warp Prisms, but the builds that are Prism-centric have to be tailored around it I imagine. And therefore are scoutable. There has to be a price to pay for leaving bases undefended, otherwise we're playing in lanes like the other, more popular games...
Correct me if I'm wrong.
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On February 09 2016 23:16 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 23:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 09 2016 20:48 CheddarToss wrote:On February 09 2016 20:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
What are you talking about cheddartoss. There was plenty of HotS warp prism harrass, especially with the speed upgrade. perhaps not in PvP but certainly in the other matchups. There reason there isn't as much deathball syndrome in LotV is because of the strength of adepts and the nerf of the collosus. Point me to a vod with Protoss harass in HotS that resembles the harass in LotV. And why are people calling for further nerfs to Protoss, when the race can hardly keep up as is, especially in PvZ? I love how you went from how apparently Protoss harass wasn't possible before in Hots, to how Lotv protoss harrass isn't the same as Hots. Why does it have to resemble the absurdly powerful LotV harrass, just to prove that protoss harrass existed in HotS? Why ask for LotV harrass in HotS when the warp prism pickup range and adepts don't exist in sc2. It's like asking for speedivac widow mine drops in WoL. Going to be impossible since medivacs didn't have boost in WoL, and widow mines as a unit don't exist. Of course it will resemble drops in general, but it wouldn't resemble it exactly. But what protoss harrass options existed in Hots? Theres the pheonix and oracle, both powerful harrass options which pro protosses have used well and frequently. There's the warp prism, which could repeatedly warp in an army as large as the number of warpgates you have repeatedly. Sentry drops was a thing in Hots.. Immortal drops was a thing in hotS. Plenty of games in Hots have been won from such harrass options. So it's utter bullshit to say that protoss harrass was not possible in HotS. Compared to Terran it was not possible. Now it is on par with Terran drop harass and that is a good thing. Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 23:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 09 2016 22:20 aQuaSC wrote:
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the statement that Warp Prism is high-reward no-risk unit. It certainly isn't a low reward high risk unit. What else would you call a fast moving 200 mineral air unit that can warp in an army repeatedly? It's potential is extremely high, and it isn't a theoretical potential as there has been so many games where protoss won using the warp prism ability to warp in zealots ad infinitum till important tech structures or economy is dead. Is it no risk? No, but nothing is no risk in sc2, but it is very low risk. Unlike Terran who have to risk losing the army inside the medivacs before they can be dropped, if you lose the warp prism before you can warp in, you lose only the cost of the warp prism. "Unlike Terran..." Only a Terran perceives dropping with boosted medivacs as "high risk". And who the hell sends an empty WP to the enemy base, only to warp in directly? Till the units get warped in, workers have long been pulled and the army is on its way to mop up your units. Why do you think people warp in 4 Adepts beforehand and drop them instead of warping them in once the WP has arrived at the enemy base? Your arguments make no sense from Protoss point of view.
I agree with that. I also think that it can be almost no risk to drop if terran is pushing with Liberators since you can be forced to stay outside of their Defender Mode range - often you need Stalkers to prevent Liberators from pushing too far and you also need Stalkers to shut down drops if you didn't go Phoenix route early on and managed to keep them in the game at the same time. And again, we can argue like that endlessly since you can always think of a counter-scenario. That only shows how deep the game is, haha.
Did I ever decide that I can freely engage a terran army straight-up when he's dropping me and lost a Medivac or two? Maybe only in the early-game, when playing against fast Mine/Marine drops. Or maybe I'm just stupidly bad 
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On February 09 2016 23:39 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 23:16 CheddarToss wrote:On February 09 2016 23:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 09 2016 20:48 CheddarToss wrote:On February 09 2016 20:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
What are you talking about cheddartoss. There was plenty of HotS warp prism harrass, especially with the speed upgrade. perhaps not in PvP but certainly in the other matchups. There reason there isn't as much deathball syndrome in LotV is because of the strength of adepts and the nerf of the collosus. Point me to a vod with Protoss harass in HotS that resembles the harass in LotV. And why are people calling for further nerfs to Protoss, when the race can hardly keep up as is, especially in PvZ? I love how you went from how apparently Protoss harass wasn't possible before in Hots, to how Lotv protoss harrass isn't the same as Hots. Why does it have to resemble the absurdly powerful LotV harrass, just to prove that protoss harrass existed in HotS? Why ask for LotV harrass in HotS when the warp prism pickup range and adepts don't exist in sc2. It's like asking for speedivac widow mine drops in WoL. Going to be impossible since medivacs didn't have boost in WoL, and widow mines as a unit don't exist. Of course it will resemble drops in general, but it wouldn't resemble it exactly. But what protoss harrass options existed in Hots? Theres the pheonix and oracle, both powerful harrass options which pro protosses have used well and frequently. There's the warp prism, which could repeatedly warp in an army as large as the number of warpgates you have repeatedly. Sentry drops was a thing in Hots.. Immortal drops was a thing in hotS. Plenty of games in Hots have been won from such harrass options. So it's utter bullshit to say that protoss harrass was not possible in HotS. Compared to Terran it was not possible. Now it is on par with Terran drop harass and that is a good thing. On February 09 2016 23:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 09 2016 22:20 aQuaSC wrote:
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the statement that Warp Prism is high-reward no-risk unit. It certainly isn't a low reward high risk unit. What else would you call a fast moving 200 mineral air unit that can warp in an army repeatedly? It's potential is extremely high, and it isn't a theoretical potential as there has been so many games where protoss won using the warp prism ability to warp in zealots ad infinitum till important tech structures or economy is dead. Is it no risk? No, but nothing is no risk in sc2, but it is very low risk. Unlike Terran who have to risk losing the army inside the medivacs before they can be dropped, if you lose the warp prism before you can warp in, you lose only the cost of the warp prism. "Unlike Terran..." Only a Terran perceives dropping with boosted medivacs as "high risk". And who the hell sends an empty WP to the enemy base, only to warp in directly? Till the units get warped in, workers have long been pulled and the army is on its way to mop up your units. Why do you think people warp in 4 Adepts beforehand and drop them instead of warping them in once the WP has arrived at the enemy base? Your arguments make no sense from Protoss point of view. Is that your sole response? No arguments, just "terran bias" and "just terran perceives". I main Zerg btw.
With the current PvZ winrate even Idra would be ashamed of playing Zerg. And yet here you are maining Zerg and whining about WP and Protoss...
EDIT:
What do you exactly expect from this game? To be able to win no matter what?
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On February 10 2016 00:10 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 23:39 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 09 2016 23:16 CheddarToss wrote:On February 09 2016 23:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 09 2016 20:48 CheddarToss wrote:On February 09 2016 20:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
What are you talking about cheddartoss. There was plenty of HotS warp prism harrass, especially with the speed upgrade. perhaps not in PvP but certainly in the other matchups. There reason there isn't as much deathball syndrome in LotV is because of the strength of adepts and the nerf of the collosus. Point me to a vod with Protoss harass in HotS that resembles the harass in LotV. And why are people calling for further nerfs to Protoss, when the race can hardly keep up as is, especially in PvZ? I love how you went from how apparently Protoss harass wasn't possible before in Hots, to how Lotv protoss harrass isn't the same as Hots. Why does it have to resemble the absurdly powerful LotV harrass, just to prove that protoss harrass existed in HotS? Why ask for LotV harrass in HotS when the warp prism pickup range and adepts don't exist in sc2. It's like asking for speedivac widow mine drops in WoL. Going to be impossible since medivacs didn't have boost in WoL, and widow mines as a unit don't exist. Of course it will resemble drops in general, but it wouldn't resemble it exactly. But what protoss harrass options existed in Hots? Theres the pheonix and oracle, both powerful harrass options which pro protosses have used well and frequently. There's the warp prism, which could repeatedly warp in an army as large as the number of warpgates you have repeatedly. Sentry drops was a thing in Hots.. Immortal drops was a thing in hotS. Plenty of games in Hots have been won from such harrass options. So it's utter bullshit to say that protoss harrass was not possible in HotS. Compared to Terran it was not possible. Now it is on par with Terran drop harass and that is a good thing. On February 09 2016 23:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 09 2016 22:20 aQuaSC wrote:
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the statement that Warp Prism is high-reward no-risk unit. It certainly isn't a low reward high risk unit. What else would you call a fast moving 200 mineral air unit that can warp in an army repeatedly? It's potential is extremely high, and it isn't a theoretical potential as there has been so many games where protoss won using the warp prism ability to warp in zealots ad infinitum till important tech structures or economy is dead. Is it no risk? No, but nothing is no risk in sc2, but it is very low risk. Unlike Terran who have to risk losing the army inside the medivacs before they can be dropped, if you lose the warp prism before you can warp in, you lose only the cost of the warp prism. "Unlike Terran..." Only a Terran perceives dropping with boosted medivacs as "high risk". And who the hell sends an empty WP to the enemy base, only to warp in directly? Till the units get warped in, workers have long been pulled and the army is on its way to mop up your units. Why do you think people warp in 4 Adepts beforehand and drop them instead of warping them in once the WP has arrived at the enemy base? Your arguments make no sense from Protoss point of view. Is that your sole response? No arguments, just "terran bias" and "just terran perceives". I main Zerg btw. With the current PvZ winrate even Idra would be ashamed of playing Zerg. And yet here you are maining Zerg and whining about WP and Protoss... lol okay guys, you heard it from cheddartoss, I need to apologise for playing my race. No bias there  Seriously though, I am just here because you said something which is blatantly false.On February 09 2016 13:37 CheddarToss wrote:
Pickup range allows for Protoss harass, which wasn't possible before, due to slow movement speed of Protoss units. I thought I'll add a bit more comparing warpprism with medivacs, but apparently being Zerg isn't impartial enough.
Edit: protosses seem to be just doing fine in GSL. But okay, I get it. you are just an angry small person.
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