Community Feedback Update - February 4 - Page 15

On February 13 2016 00:17 TimeSpiral wrote:


Why, Dino? Why?!

Units that can be built from the barracks: Marine, Marauder, Reaper, Ghost.

Units that can be built from the Gateway / Warpgate (or are directly derived): Zealot, Adept, Stalker, Sentry, High Templar, Dark Templar, Archon.

Gateway units fucking shrecktify barracks units in so many situations. Adepts are ridiculously strong in the early game and gliaves makes them meaty DPS units later on. Chargelots do guaranteed damage now and also mitigate DPS by forcing micro, the Stalker is a skill unit, the Sentry is a crowd control / DPS mitigating spellcaster, High Templar obviously has splash with Storm, Dark Templar is advanced late-game harass / early-game cheese, and the Archon is a front-line auto-healing super tank with splash damage ... I'm not saying barrack units are bad, or even much worse, but "Gateway is weak" is a fucking absurd argument.

It is just a fact that Gateway units are strong. It is part of the racial identity: slightly more expensive, slightly stronger. Why even bother arguing against this? It's because people think the Medivac comes from the barracks. Smh.

The "Gateway tech is late vs Barracks tech is early" myth - Nobody rushes Stim. Very few plays rush combat shields. Shells aren't even a thing anymore. Plus, stim is actually useless unless you've teched to starport and started dumping gas into medivacs. This is well into the mid-game. Meanwhile, it's not uncommon to see Twilight openers with robos or with Stargate, it's practically standard!

I'm actually asking you to give it up, Dino. Just give it up. You're wrong, unless you're going to double-down and say that some Protoss players are opening Gateway and that's it. No robo, no Stargate. Nothing. Just Gateway. And then, for some reason, are taking fights versus Stimmed bio with Starport support out in the open. Lol. Please.

If you're going to compare an entire racial composition (i.e., bio with starport support) to one tech path for Protoss "Gateway" that's fine, but it's just a weird thing to do. But even then, Chargelot Archon HT with Stalker support can do reasonably well against MMM and you know it. Then if Ghosts come out it's pretty nice for Toss to have one of their other point-and-click AOE death spells : )

It's a pretty good match up right now, with maybe a few problems on both sides, but the balance leaning slightly in Protoss's favor. Dialing back the Marauder nerf is probably a good idea, especially if they're removing the tank again. A more meaningful Adept nerf, and I don't know if anything can be done about tempest rush on certain maps : /

Plus, stim is actually useless unless you've teched to starport and started dumping gas into medivacs. This is well into the mid-game.

On February 13 2016 03:34 Spyridon wrote:


I completely agree with most of what you say. Just 1 disagreement among that..



In LotV, medivacs are usually available in mere minutes. I would not call that "well in to mid-game".

Your overall point is still valid about the strength of the units. But medivacs are usually in production extremely early - pretty much as soon as most of the gateway units become available, medivacs are already in production.

On February 13 2016 04:10 TimeSpiral wrote:


Fair. I guess we're all still learning what the "mid-game" is to some extent. And in this particular match up (TvP), you'll often have a third CC right around the time you're building medivacs. That feels mid-game-ish to me. The standard opener is reactor on the rax, and then you tech, and your first couple units from the startport are usually Liberators (because Stim isn't finished yet). Medivacs and Stim are even further delayed by the need to build a usually one cyclone. You could definitely skip the cyclone and the liberators and rush medivacs, but you won't have stim yet, and if you do, you probably won't have enough units to survive the potential 2-base attack from Toss.

I guess my overarching point was that in LotV, in TvP especially, stim and medivacs have been pushed back from their HotS timing because of the need for mass marine / cyclone to "not die" and then the extra CC to "not die and fall behind economically" which is a thing right now in TvP.

On February 17 2016 07:14 Charoisaur wrote:

last time I checked high templars were produced from gateways/warpgates.

On February 17 2016 07:32 DinoMight wrote:
Sigh it's like you guys don't even read my posts.

Templar are slow and don't spawn with enough energy to cast storm. So they're not available as part of a quick defensive/offensive warpin.

Also a pure gateway army can absolutely not fight a Terran bio based army. Not with Liberators and Widow Mines.

Not on even economic terms, at least. Blinking under Liberators = instant death for all your Stalkers. Adepts can't outrange Mines. It's just bad news.