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On February 11 2016 03:52 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 03:28 BaronVonOwn wrote:On February 11 2016 02:46 InfCereal wrote:
This is the dumbest argument I have ever read in the history of the internet.
Why does it even matter Because the warp prism in a 200 mineral, tier-2 arbiter. At least the arbiter runs out of energy for a while after warping in. Warpins and medivacs totally change the nature of the game compared to BW. There is no positional/strategic play in SC2 because every position is easily bypassed. Those units are hardly the only reason why, but they're a part of it. Warp ins are pretty bad but it's undeniably here to stay in its current form so let's move on.
NEVER SURRENDER
I don't know if blizzard would still redesign 'bigger things' now that there is no expansion left to sell, but if they do we still should try to make them listen. At the start of the beta blizzard said something like this "we want to make sc2 the best game it can be" , that's not possible with warpgates, no real high ground mechanic, the horrible looking pathing (sometimes gameplay is also about the looks) and other things.
We have to try 
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On February 11 2016 04:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 03:52 Deathstar wrote:On February 11 2016 03:28 BaronVonOwn wrote:On February 11 2016 02:46 InfCereal wrote:
This is the dumbest argument I have ever read in the history of the internet.
Why does it even matter Because the warp prism in a 200 mineral, tier-2 arbiter. At least the arbiter runs out of energy for a while after warping in. Warpins and medivacs totally change the nature of the game compared to BW. There is no positional/strategic play in SC2 because every position is easily bypassed. Those units are hardly the only reason why, but they're a part of it. Warp ins are pretty bad but it's undeniably here to stay in its current form so let's move on. NEVER SURRENDER I don't know if blizzard would still redesign 'bigger things' now that there is no expansion left to sell, but if they do we still should try to make them listen. At the start of the beta blizzard said something like this "we want to make sc2 the best game it can be" , that's not possible with warpgates, no real high ground mechanic, the horrible looking pathing (sometimes gameplay is also about the looks) and other things. We have to try
I like the believe the people working on starcraft are still passionate about the game, so I think they would still be open to big changes. Moreso because there's no expansion>
At some point they're going to have to call the game done, and they should want it in its best state when they do that.
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On February 11 2016 04:51 InfCereal wrote:
I like the believe the people working on starcraft are still passionate about the game, so I think they would still be open to big changes. Moreso because there's no expansion>
At some point they're going to have to call the game done, and they should want it in its best state when they do that.
I hate to say it but I think the best "hope" for SC2 is mods like Starbow. For whatever reasons, they seem pretty married to all their bad decisions. Counter-Strike and MOBAs started out as mods and look at them now right?
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On February 11 2016 00:02 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2016 07:55 DinoMight wrote:On February 10 2016 06:49 CounterOrder wrote:
Warp Prisms require you to have free supply / gateways on cooldown.
If you don't make units at home because you want to warp in at their base, you put yourself at risk of not having enough units at home.
No one wants to be supply blocked. Terran has to take units away from their army after already spending the time to produce them. Toss can make a choice, is there an easy opening for a warp in/drop? If not then warp in at home. One more point towards the fact its lower risk, you dont need to commit to it in the same way. Its simply less risk, and thats fine. EDIT- Also "is there an easy opening?" are you kidding me? Terran can scan a whole screen to see if there is an opening before dropping. I'm not trying to say one is better or worse I'm just trying to show you that this argument is dumb. FIXED IT:Also "is there an easy opening?" are you kidding me? Terran can spend 250-ish minerals, target a section of the map, to get a brief glimpse. This form of scouting produces an on-screen warning for their opponent. All the while, Terran needs to have all the supply committed and near the drop zone, ready to go. I'm not trying to say one is--oh wait, I should describe the other: It's not like we Toss players get a 1-supply permanently-cloaked speed-upgraded flying unit that scouts and detect, or completely supply-independent zero-risk hallucinated scouts that are super fast, or--you know--the best scout in the game: the oracle. We have the worst scouting the game (and by worst I mean best by far). p.s. Love you, Dino : )
Lol I mean if we're going to play THAT game....
Terran doesn't really SPEND 250 minerals.. it's more like they're choosing to forgo 250 free minerals that they owtherwise receive on cooldown every time they have enough energy 
I wasn't trying to argue anything about scouting. I'm just saying that people will always find excused why something is imba by making a bad comparison to something else THEIR race doesn't do as well.
And come on, you go after me the one time I'm not actually complaining about balance!
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On February 11 2016 03:52 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 03:28 BaronVonOwn wrote:On February 11 2016 02:46 InfCereal wrote:
This is the dumbest argument I have ever read in the history of the internet.
Why does it even matter Because the warp prism in a 200 mineral, tier-2 arbiter. At least the arbiter runs out of energy for a while after warping in. Warpins and medivacs totally change the nature of the game compared to BW. There is no positional/strategic play in SC2 because every position is easily bypassed. Those units are hardly the only reason why, but they're a part of it. Warp ins are pretty bad but it's undeniably here to stay in its current form so let's move on.
Just saying they are going to stay doesn't mean these mechanics have to stay at the same strenght they currently are. And I personally don't see their design as bad. I think they were GREAT additions to the game, but they were terribliy implemented to the game. In by implemented, I mean as the power of this tactic is a bit too strong in comparison to the other tactics in the game (warp-in is probably a lot too strong and I would love to see a nerf to the mechanic itself).
On February 11 2016 05:18 BaronVonOwn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 04:51 InfCereal wrote:
I like the believe the people working on starcraft are still passionate about the game, so I think they would still be open to big changes. Moreso because there's no expansion>
At some point they're going to have to call the game done, and they should want it in its best state when they do that. I hate to say it but I think the best "hope" for SC2 is mods like Starbow. For whatever reasons, they seem pretty married to all their bad decisions. Counter-Strike and MOBAs started out as mods and look at them now right?
First off, of course the employees working on SC are passionate at the job. The question I worry about is if their structure allows the passion to make it through and enables them to make the change that "I see" as nesscary to remove the bad design choices. In that line of questioning, I doubt I'll see it. What ever their process is, they don't seem intent to 'want' to fix the bad decisions in the past.
As for mod 'Starbow' in particular. I have personally never cared for it. I can understand the nostalgia for BW because it was well designed game for its time, but the reason why I don't like Starbow is because instead of wanting to use the good of both games (SC2 & BW), they just want to make BW 2. It feels like to me, a lot people don't even attempt to incorporate SC2 new freatures, instead, tend to going to 'remove' this and just replace it with BW things. The only thing I usually see people only want are just the UI and unlimited section. But that's just what I precieve.
Note: even though I think SC2 have good ideas, I do think they are poorly implemented into the game and could use adjusting.
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On February 11 2016 05:35 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 00:02 TimeSpiral wrote:On February 10 2016 07:55 DinoMight wrote:On February 10 2016 06:49 CounterOrder wrote:
Warp Prisms require you to have free supply / gateways on cooldown.
If you don't make units at home because you want to warp in at their base, you put yourself at risk of not having enough units at home.
No one wants to be supply blocked. Terran has to take units away from their army after already spending the time to produce them. Toss can make a choice, is there an easy opening for a warp in/drop? If not then warp in at home. One more point towards the fact its lower risk, you dont need to commit to it in the same way. Its simply less risk, and thats fine. EDIT- Also "is there an easy opening?" are you kidding me? Terran can scan a whole screen to see if there is an opening before dropping. I'm not trying to say one is better or worse I'm just trying to show you that this argument is dumb. FIXED IT:Also "is there an easy opening?" are you kidding me? Terran can spend 250-ish minerals, target a section of the map, to get a brief glimpse. This form of scouting produces an on-screen warning for their opponent. All the while, Terran needs to have all the supply committed and near the drop zone, ready to go. I'm not trying to say one is--oh wait, I should describe the other: It's not like we Toss players get a 1-supply permanently-cloaked speed-upgraded flying unit that scouts and detect, or completely supply-independent zero-risk hallucinated scouts that are super fast, or--you know--the best scout in the game: the oracle. We have the worst scouting the game (and by worst I mean best by far). p.s. Love you, Dino : ) Lol I mean if we're going to play THAT game.... Terran doesn't really SPEND 250 minerals.. it's more like they're choosing to forgo 250 free minerals that they owtherwise receive on cooldown every time they have enough energy I wasn't trying to argue anything about scouting. I'm just saying that people will always find excused why something is imba by making a bad comparison to something else THEIR race doesn't do as well. And come on, you go after me the one time I'm not actually complaining about balance!
There's not much of a difference in forgoing 250 minerals and spending 250 minerals except for the fact that it's not accumulated in the course of 90 seconds. 250 minerals is 250 minerals, no matter how you look at it.
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On February 11 2016 05:35 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 00:02 TimeSpiral wrote:On February 10 2016 07:55 DinoMight wrote:On February 10 2016 06:49 CounterOrder wrote:
Warp Prisms require you to have free supply / gateways on cooldown.
If you don't make units at home because you want to warp in at their base, you put yourself at risk of not having enough units at home.
No one wants to be supply blocked. Terran has to take units away from their army after already spending the time to produce them. Toss can make a choice, is there an easy opening for a warp in/drop? If not then warp in at home. One more point towards the fact its lower risk, you dont need to commit to it in the same way. Its simply less risk, and thats fine. EDIT- Also "is there an easy opening?" are you kidding me? Terran can scan a whole screen to see if there is an opening before dropping. I'm not trying to say one is better or worse I'm just trying to show you that this argument is dumb. FIXED IT:Also "is there an easy opening?" are you kidding me? Terran can spend 250-ish minerals, target a section of the map, to get a brief glimpse. This form of scouting produces an on-screen warning for their opponent. All the while, Terran needs to have all the supply committed and near the drop zone, ready to go. I'm not trying to say one is--oh wait, I should describe the other: It's not like we Toss players get a 1-supply permanently-cloaked speed-upgraded flying unit that scouts and detect, or completely supply-independent zero-risk hallucinated scouts that are super fast, or--you know--the best scout in the game: the oracle. We have the worst scouting the game (and by worst I mean best by far). p.s. Love you, Dino : ) Lol I mean if we're going to play THAT game.... Terran doesn't really SPEND 250 minerals.. it's more like they're choosing to forgo 250 free minerals that they owtherwise receive on cooldown every time they have enough energy I wasn't trying to argue anything about scouting. I'm just saying that people will always find excused why something is imba by making a bad comparison to something else THEIR race doesn't do as well. And come on, you go after me the one time I'm not actually complaining about balance!
You're a fun target, Dino. And I definitely don't think you want to play that game. I'll let it slide this time!
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On February 11 2016 05:35 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 00:02 TimeSpiral wrote:On February 10 2016 07:55 DinoMight wrote:On February 10 2016 06:49 CounterOrder wrote:
Warp Prisms require you to have free supply / gateways on cooldown.
If you don't make units at home because you want to warp in at their base, you put yourself at risk of not having enough units at home.
No one wants to be supply blocked. Terran has to take units away from their army after already spending the time to produce them. Toss can make a choice, is there an easy opening for a warp in/drop? If not then warp in at home. One more point towards the fact its lower risk, you dont need to commit to it in the same way. Its simply less risk, and thats fine. EDIT- Also "is there an easy opening?" are you kidding me? Terran can scan a whole screen to see if there is an opening before dropping. I'm not trying to say one is better or worse I'm just trying to show you that this argument is dumb. FIXED IT:Also "is there an easy opening?" are you kidding me? Terran can spend 250-ish minerals, target a section of the map, to get a brief glimpse. This form of scouting produces an on-screen warning for their opponent. All the while, Terran needs to have all the supply committed and near the drop zone, ready to go. I'm not trying to say one is--oh wait, I should describe the other: It's not like we Toss players get a 1-supply permanently-cloaked speed-upgraded flying unit that scouts and detect, or completely supply-independent zero-risk hallucinated scouts that are super fast, or--you know--the best scout in the game: the oracle. We have the worst scouting the game (and by worst I mean best by far). p.s. Love you, Dino : ) Lol I mean if we're going to play THAT game.... Terran doesn't really SPEND 250 minerals.. it's more like they're choosing to forgo 250 free minerals that they owtherwise receive on cooldown every time they have enough energy I wasn't trying to argue anything about scouting. I'm just saying that people will always find excused why something is imba by making a bad comparison to something else THEIR race doesn't do as well. And come on, you go after me the one time I'm not actually complaining about balance!
Yeah and when you start mining in the beginning with 8 workers instead of 12 you don't sacrifice ressources. You just forgo ressources that you would have otherwise for free
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Hey guys, did you know that if you call down a mule, you don't actually gain the minerals because it is removed from your mineral field, so you just mine out faster. :D
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Well I was mostly just joking about how Terran has an ability that gives you 250 minerals on cooldown :p
Like, oh no, we can't collect our free 250 minerals this go around because we instead decided to see the enemy's entire base without any units. How sad for Terran 
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On a more serious note, I'm having a lot of trouble with PvT when I don't cheese
When I cheese, usualy I can get Tempests out by the time they have liberators. When I don't cheese, liberators come too fast and I get hosed.
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On February 12 2016 03:24 DinoMight wrote:Well I was mostly just joking about how Terran has an ability that gives you 250 minerals on cooldown :p Like, oh no, we can't collect our free 250 minerals this go around because we instead decided to see the enemy's entire base without any units. How sad for Terran
Terran is balanced around having the economy boost of mules. It's not like they get an advantage by constantly muling they need it to stay even.
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On February 12 2016 03:39 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 03:24 DinoMight wrote:Well I was mostly just joking about how Terran has an ability that gives you 250 minerals on cooldown :p Like, oh no, we can't collect our free 250 minerals this go around because we instead decided to see the enemy's entire base without any units. How sad for Terran Terran is balanced around having the economy boost of mules. It's not like they get an advantage by constantly muling they need it to stay even.
And Protoss is balanced around weaker gateway units and the warp mechanic :p
That's always what's annoyed me a bit about people who don't really understand the game complaining about warp-ins. When a Protoss warps 10 Zealots into a Terran's base you get OMG IMBA IMBA IMBA. But a Terran on no workers using MULES and reactors to make 20 Marines at a time... HIS MACRO IS SO GOOD.
Note- I didn't mean to imply that you specifically don't know what you're talking about, as you clearly do.
On a side note..
I'm kind of the opinion that Liberator fucks up maps PvZ.... any base that is easy to defend vs Zerg is also incredibly easy to get Liberator sieged on.
Maybe against Terran we have to be out and about on the map more, and not let them siege at our base. But then I feel the Adept should walk a little faster by default and perhaps recall shouldn't be tied to the MsC (or the MsC should be a little faster (or maybe just accelerate faster)).
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On February 12 2016 03:51 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 03:39 Charoisaur wrote:On February 12 2016 03:24 DinoMight wrote:Well I was mostly just joking about how Terran has an ability that gives you 250 minerals on cooldown :p Like, oh no, we can't collect our free 250 minerals this go around because we instead decided to see the enemy's entire base without any units. How sad for Terran Terran is balanced around having the economy boost of mules. It's not like they get an advantage by constantly muling they need it to stay even. And Protoss is balanced around weaker gateway units and the warp mechanic :p That's always what's annoyed me a bit about people who don't really understand the game complaining about warp-ins. When a Protoss warps 10 Zealots into a Terran's base you get OMG IMBA IMBA IMBA. But a Terran on no workers using MULES and reactors to make 20 Marines at a time... HIS MACRO IS SO GOOD. Note- I didn't mean to imply that you specifically don't know what you're talking about, as you clearly do. On a side note.. I'm kind of the opinion that Liberator fucks up maps PvZ.... any base that is easy to defend vs Zerg is also incredibly easy to get Liberator sieged on. Maybe against Terran we have to be out and about on the map more, and not let them siege at our base. But then I feel the Adept should walk a little faster by default and perhaps recall shouldn't be tied to the MsC (or the MsC should be a little faster (or maybe just accelerate faster)).
Meh.
It's all about upgrades, composition, and engagement. It's not that Protoss gatway units are "weaker". Marines need combat shields, and stim, and medivacs, and then they're good. Marauders needs shells, stim, and medivacs, and Ghosts need cloak.
Adepts need glaives, stalkers need blink, zealots need charge, high templars need storm, DTs don't need an upgrade, neither do archons or Sentries. But to somehow suggest that Gateway units are weaker is just bizarre. They're not. It's all about upgrades, composition, and engagement. A gateway army can toast a MMM ball with almost zero losses in some cases, and the same thing can happen vice versa.
It's access to upgrades (i.e., when they come out) that had to be finely tweaked.
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How can protoss players still be repeating this gateway units are weak myth like a mantra?
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On February 12 2016 06:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
How can protoss players still be repeating this gateway units are weak myth like a mantra?
Because the tech required to make gateway units good comes much later while stim/combat shields/concussive are all Barracks tech.
Additionally, MMM just moves around as one unit together. You can never fight MMM with just gateway units. You need storm, you need disruptors, you need Colossi.
So dropping 8 Zealots is not like dropping 2 medivacs full of MMM. The Medivacs, Marines, and Marauders together are a top class fighting unit. The gateway units that you're warping in solo (no splash, no archons, no energy on sentries) can't take MMM in a fight, regardless of upgrades, unless its in OVERWHELMING numbers.
Whether you're defending against a drop with a warpin or dropping a Terran player/warping in his base, you will always have the inferior army if there's just gateway units.
Gateway units alone are viable vs bio until stim finishes or in overwhelming numbers. That's about it.
This is why we refer to Gateway units as weak.
Note - this is not to say zealot warpins are bad. THey're great at killing workers and infrastructure when the Terran is out of position.I'm only talking about a heads up fight between MMM and bio. You can always rely on the Medivacs to be with the bio. You can't rely on all Protoss's advanced units to accompany drops or defensive warpins.
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On February 12 2016 06:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 06:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
How can protoss players still be repeating this gateway units are weak myth like a mantra? Because the tech required to make gateway units good comes much later while stim/combat shields/concussive are all Barracks tech. Additionally, MMM just moves around as one unit together. You can never fight MMM with just gateway units. You need storm, you need disruptors, you need Colossi. So dropping 8 Zealots is not like dropping 2 medivacs full of MMM. The Medivacs, Marines, and Marauders together are a top class fighting unit. The gateway units that you're warping in solo (no splash, no archons, no energy on sentries) can't take MMM in a fight, regardless of upgrades, unless its in OVERWHELMING numbers. Whether you're defending against a drop with a warpin or dropping a Terran player/warping in his base, you will always have the inferior army if there's just gateway units. Gateway units alone are viable vs bio until stim finishes or in overwhelming numbers. That's about it. This is why we refer to Gateway units as weak. Note - this is not to say zealot warpins are bad. THey're great at killing workers and infrastructure when the Terran is out of position.I'm only talking about a heads up fight between MMM and bio. You can always rely on the Medivacs to be with the bio. You can't rely on all Protoss's advanced units to accompany drops or defensive warpins.
More accurate statement would be that they are sometimes weak against terran and zerg and sometimes really super strong. Saying that they are weak because they might get destroyed in certain situations is like saying ultras are weak cause ghost kill them so easily.
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On February 12 2016 22:32 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 06:27 DinoMight wrote:On February 12 2016 06:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
How can protoss players still be repeating this gateway units are weak myth like a mantra? Because the tech required to make gateway units good comes much later while stim/combat shields/concussive are all Barracks tech. Additionally, MMM just moves around as one unit together. You can never fight MMM with just gateway units. You need storm, you need disruptors, you need Colossi. So dropping 8 Zealots is not like dropping 2 medivacs full of MMM. The Medivacs, Marines, and Marauders together are a top class fighting unit. The gateway units that you're warping in solo (no splash, no archons, no energy on sentries) can't take MMM in a fight, regardless of upgrades, unless its in OVERWHELMING numbers. Whether you're defending against a drop with a warpin or dropping a Terran player/warping in his base, you will always have the inferior army if there's just gateway units. Gateway units alone are viable vs bio until stim finishes or in overwhelming numbers. That's about it. This is why we refer to Gateway units as weak. Note - this is not to say zealot warpins are bad. THey're great at killing workers and infrastructure when the Terran is out of position.I'm only talking about a heads up fight between MMM and bio. You can always rely on the Medivacs to be with the bio. You can't rely on all Protoss's advanced units to accompany drops or defensive warpins. More accurate statement would be that they are sometimes weak against terran and zerg and sometimes really super strong. Saying that they are weak because they might get destroyed in certain situations is like saying ultras are weak cause ghost kill them so easily.
Under that definition no unit is ever weak. There's no such as a unit that is weak regardless of the situation.
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On February 12 2016 23:57 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 22:32 RaFox17 wrote:On February 12 2016 06:27 DinoMight wrote:On February 12 2016 06:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
How can protoss players still be repeating this gateway units are weak myth like a mantra? Because the tech required to make gateway units good comes much later while stim/combat shields/concussive are all Barracks tech. Additionally, MMM just moves around as one unit together. You can never fight MMM with just gateway units. You need storm, you need disruptors, you need Colossi. So dropping 8 Zealots is not like dropping 2 medivacs full of MMM. The Medivacs, Marines, and Marauders together are a top class fighting unit. The gateway units that you're warping in solo (no splash, no archons, no energy on sentries) can't take MMM in a fight, regardless of upgrades, unless its in OVERWHELMING numbers. Whether you're defending against a drop with a warpin or dropping a Terran player/warping in his base, you will always have the inferior army if there's just gateway units. Gateway units alone are viable vs bio until stim finishes or in overwhelming numbers. That's about it. This is why we refer to Gateway units as weak. Note - this is not to say zealot warpins are bad. THey're great at killing workers and infrastructure when the Terran is out of position.I'm only talking about a heads up fight between MMM and bio. You can always rely on the Medivacs to be with the bio. You can't rely on all Protoss's advanced units to accompany drops or defensive warpins. More accurate statement would be that they are sometimes weak against terran and zerg and sometimes really super strong. Saying that they are weak because they might get destroyed in certain situations is like saying ultras are weak cause ghost kill them so easily. Under that definition no unit is ever weak. There's no such as a unit that is weak regardless of the situation.
meet mr swarmhost
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On February 12 2016 06:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2016 06:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
How can protoss players still be repeating this gateway units are weak myth like a mantra? Because the tech required to make gateway units good comes much later while stim/combat shields/concussive are all Barracks tech. Additionally, MMM just moves around as one unit together. You can never fight MMM with just gateway units. You need storm, you need disruptors, you need Colossi. So dropping 8 Zealots is not like dropping 2 medivacs full of MMM. The Medivacs, Marines, and Marauders together are a top class fighting unit. The gateway units that you're warping in solo (no splash, no archons, no energy on sentries) can't take MMM in a fight, regardless of upgrades, unless its in OVERWHELMING numbers. Whether you're defending against a drop with a warpin or dropping a Terran player/warping in his base, you will always have the inferior army if there's just gateway units. Gateway units alone are viable vs bio until stim finishes or in overwhelming numbers. That's about it. This is why we refer to Gateway units as weak. Note - this is not to say zealot warpins are bad. THey're great at killing workers and infrastructure when the Terran is out of position.I'm only talking about a heads up fight between MMM and bio. You can always rely on the Medivacs to be with the bio. You can't rely on all Protoss's advanced units to accompany drops or defensive warpins.
Why, Dino? Why?!
Units that can be built from the barracks: Marine, Marauder, Reaper, Ghost.
Units that can be built from the Gateway / Warpgate (or are directly derived): Zealot, Adept, Stalker, Sentry, High Templar, Dark Templar, Archon.
Gateway units fucking shrecktify barracks units in so many situations. Adepts are ridiculously strong in the early game and gliaves makes them meaty DPS units later on. Chargelots do guaranteed damage now and also mitigate DPS by forcing micro, the Stalker is a skill unit, the Sentry is a crowd control / DPS mitigating spellcaster, High Templar obviously has splash with Storm, Dark Templar is advanced late-game harass / early-game cheese, and the Archon is a front-line auto-healing super tank with splash damage ... I'm not saying barrack units are bad, or even much worse, but "Gateway is weak" is a fucking absurd argument.
It is just a fact that Gateway units are strong. It is part of the racial identity: slightly more expensive, slightly stronger. Why even bother arguing against this? It's because people think the Medivac comes from the barracks. Smh.
The "Gateway tech is late vs Barracks tech is early" myth - Nobody rushes Stim. Very few plays rush combat shields. Shells aren't even a thing anymore. Plus, stim is actually useless unless you've teched to starport and started dumping gas into medivacs. This is well into the mid-game. Meanwhile, it's not uncommon to see Twilight openers with robos or with Stargate, it's practically standard!
I'm actually asking you to give it up, Dino. Just give it up. You're wrong, unless you're going to double-down and say that some Protoss players are opening Gateway and that's it. No robo, no Stargate. Nothing. Just Gateway. And then, for some reason, are taking fights versus Stimmed bio with Starport support out in the open. Lol. Please.
If you're going to compare an entire racial composition (i.e., bio with starport support) to one tech path for Protoss "Gateway" that's fine, but it's just a weird thing to do. But even then, Chargelot Archon HT with Stalker support can do reasonably well against MMM and you know it. Then if Ghosts come out it's pretty nice for Toss to have one of their other point-and-click AOE death spells : )
It's a pretty good match up right now, with maybe a few problems on both sides, but the balance leaning slightly in Protoss's favor. Dialing back the Marauder nerf is probably a good idea, especially if they're removing the tank again. A more meaningful Adept nerf, and I don't know if anything can be done about tempest rush on certain maps : /
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EPT
