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On February 10 2016 00:32 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2016 00:10 CheddarToss wrote:On February 09 2016 23:39 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 09 2016 23:16 CheddarToss wrote:On February 09 2016 23:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 09 2016 20:48 CheddarToss wrote:On February 09 2016 20:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
What are you talking about cheddartoss. There was plenty of HotS warp prism harrass, especially with the speed upgrade. perhaps not in PvP but certainly in the other matchups. There reason there isn't as much deathball syndrome in LotV is because of the strength of adepts and the nerf of the collosus. Point me to a vod with Protoss harass in HotS that resembles the harass in LotV. And why are people calling for further nerfs to Protoss, when the race can hardly keep up as is, especially in PvZ? I love how you went from how apparently Protoss harass wasn't possible before in Hots, to how Lotv protoss harrass isn't the same as Hots. Why does it have to resemble the absurdly powerful LotV harrass, just to prove that protoss harrass existed in HotS? Why ask for LotV harrass in HotS when the warp prism pickup range and adepts don't exist in sc2. It's like asking for speedivac widow mine drops in WoL. Going to be impossible since medivacs didn't have boost in WoL, and widow mines as a unit don't exist. Of course it will resemble drops in general, but it wouldn't resemble it exactly. But what protoss harrass options existed in Hots? Theres the pheonix and oracle, both powerful harrass options which pro protosses have used well and frequently. There's the warp prism, which could repeatedly warp in an army as large as the number of warpgates you have repeatedly. Sentry drops was a thing in Hots.. Immortal drops was a thing in hotS. Plenty of games in Hots have been won from such harrass options. So it's utter bullshit to say that protoss harrass was not possible in HotS. Compared to Terran it was not possible. Now it is on par with Terran drop harass and that is a good thing. On February 09 2016 23:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 09 2016 22:20 aQuaSC wrote:
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the statement that Warp Prism is high-reward no-risk unit. It certainly isn't a low reward high risk unit. What else would you call a fast moving 200 mineral air unit that can warp in an army repeatedly? It's potential is extremely high, and it isn't a theoretical potential as there has been so many games where protoss won using the warp prism ability to warp in zealots ad infinitum till important tech structures or economy is dead. Is it no risk? No, but nothing is no risk in sc2, but it is very low risk. Unlike Terran who have to risk losing the army inside the medivacs before they can be dropped, if you lose the warp prism before you can warp in, you lose only the cost of the warp prism. "Unlike Terran..." Only a Terran perceives dropping with boosted medivacs as "high risk". And who the hell sends an empty WP to the enemy base, only to warp in directly? Till the units get warped in, workers have long been pulled and the army is on its way to mop up your units. Why do you think people warp in 4 Adepts beforehand and drop them instead of warping them in once the WP has arrived at the enemy base? Your arguments make no sense from Protoss point of view. Is that your sole response? No arguments, just "terran bias" and "just terran perceives". I main Zerg btw. With the current PvZ winrate even Idra would be ashamed of playing Zerg. And yet here you are maining Zerg and whining about WP and Protoss... lol okay guys, you heard it from cheddartoss, I need to apologise for playing my race. No bias there  Seriously though, I am just here because you said something which is blatantly false. Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 13:37 CheddarToss wrote:
Pickup range allows for Protoss harass, which wasn't possible before, due to slow movement speed of Protoss units. I thought I'll add a bit more comparing warpprism with medivacs, but apparently being Zerg isn't impartial enough. Edit: protosses seem to be just doing fine in GSL. But okay, I get it. you are just an angry small person.
I seem to recall that ZvP never had such a low winrate in the history of SC2. And I also seem to recall the endless whining about Protoss since WoL release, often times totally misguided, just like now regarding the WP.
I guess some people can't be happy unless they can roflstomp better players of the race they despise with a simple a-move.
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lol mmm is the main reason I stopped playing WoL ladder back in the day. Let's not forget the thor + raven bs. I believe charge was fixed sometime after that.
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On February 09 2016 23:16 CheddarToss wrote:
Only a Terran perceives dropping with boosted medivacs as "high risk". And who the hell sends an empty WP to the enemy base, only to warp in directly? Till the units get warped in, workers have long been pulled and the army is on its way to mop up your units. Why do you think people warp in 4 Adepts beforehand and drop them instead of warping them in once the WP has arrived at the enemy base? Your arguments make no sense from Protoss point of view.
Cheddar ... why ... You're better than this.
Non-Terrans hate the Medivac so much it's hilarious to me. It's fun for me to watch the spin. Watch, here are some fun examples:
(1) It's so ridiculous that Terran's think it's risky to shift+click on the mini map, then boost (for free) their Medivacs at the last, drop their bio, do guaranteed damage, while getting healed the whole time, then be able to boost out for free, meanwhile, I have to split my army up perfectly and cover2 multiple fronts.
(2) It's absurd that Terran's only viable unit composition in TvP requires the constant use of an ability that deals damage to itself, necessitating a 2-supply unit--that can't attack to then heal that damage back over time and can only ferry a limited amount of supply. It doesn't get a speed upgrade, just a temporary speed boost!
(3) The warp prism is a super fast gasless doom-drop machine, capable of ferrying units, powering buildings, and warping in a limitless number of gateway units for free--all while granting a passive Blink bonus to all nearby ground units. Kill the Warp Prism? Nice. They don't lose any of the potential supply, just the ability to warp in the supply at that location. It's essentially a risk-free custom-tailored doom drop.
See? So easy to spin. It's all about language.
Here's my beef with the Warp Prism (besides it looking a little too strong). It almost completely removes the proxy pylon dynamic, which I thought was a pretty cool one. Part of the TvP matchup was finding that probe. Man, finding that probe was a big deal! Now it's finding the speed WP ... which is impossible, because it's ultra fast. The passive Blink thing? I think that combined with the faster warp-in is problematic.
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If warp prism cost a bit of gas and lost its range/ability to blink units i think it would be fine. Maybe units should warp in a little slower. It is definitely a little strong. I think the medivac is just fine as is.
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TimeSpiral, there is no difference in risk between the WP and Medivac drops. Neither are high risk. Contrary to your last paragraph, speed is rarely researched (just like High Capacity Fuel Tanks for Medivacs...) because it comes too late for the crucial early harass timing and P drops less in later stages of the game, because of needing to defend Terran drops and Lib mineral line harass. In most cases Terran is facing a slow WP. And what do you mean with "faster warp-in"? Compared to lone pylon in LotV or compared to HotS warp-in?
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are the changes final? will they change it today/tonight?
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On February 10 2016 01:51 CheddarToss wrote:
TimeSpiral, there is no difference in risk between the WP and Medivac drops. Neither are high risk. Contrary to your last paragraph, speed is rarely researched (just like High Capacity Fuel Tanks for Medivacs...) because it comes too late for the crucial early harass timing and P drops less in later stages of the game, because of needing to defend Terran drops and Lib mineral line harass. In most cases Terran is facing a slow WP. And what do you mean with "faster warp-in"? Compared to lone pylon in LotV or compared to HotS warp-in?
No difference in risk? Do you even read this thread? It has been said multiple times that it is much riskier for Terran to do (big) drops. And Protoss drops less in lategame? Please.
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On February 10 2016 01:51 CheddarToss wrote:
TimeSpiral, there is no difference in risk between the WP and Medivac drops. Neither are high risk. Contrary to your last paragraph, speed is rarely researched (just like High Capacity Fuel Tanks for Medivacs...) because it comes too late for the crucial early harass timing and P drops less in later stages of the game, because of needing to defend Terran drops and Lib mineral line harass. In most cases Terran is facing a slow WP. And what do you mean with "faster warp-in"? Compared to lone pylon in LotV or compared to HotS warp-in?
You have no clue what you're talking about....
The risk to Terran is 20-30 supply in those drops, every full medivac usually has 10 supply total. You are literally putting at risk a lot of supply that can potentially do nothing if the enemy is sitting there in their base.
Warp prism is 2 supply, 200 minerals. You do not have to ever commit to warping in anything, just the fact it's on the map means Protoss can have 10 gateways in your main at any point in the game. Not to mention if you fail warp-in the warp-ins cancel and you get the money back.
Do you see the difference? One is insane risk, the other is almost zero risk.
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On February 10 2016 03:58 SiaBBo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2016 01:51 CheddarToss wrote:
TimeSpiral, there is no difference in risk between the WP and Medivac drops. Neither are high risk. Contrary to your last paragraph, speed is rarely researched (just like High Capacity Fuel Tanks for Medivacs...) because it comes too late for the crucial early harass timing and P drops less in later stages of the game, because of needing to defend Terran drops and Lib mineral line harass. In most cases Terran is facing a slow WP. And what do you mean with "faster warp-in"? Compared to lone pylon in LotV or compared to HotS warp-in? No difference in risk? Do you even read this thread? It has been said multiple times that it is much riskier for Terran to do (big) drops. And Protoss drops less in lategame? Please.
They don't though. Then again most lategame bases are accessible for harass without using a prism so that's not super relevant.
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On February 10 2016 04:05 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2016 01:51 CheddarToss wrote:
TimeSpiral, there is no difference in risk between the WP and Medivac drops. Neither are high risk. Contrary to your last paragraph, speed is rarely researched (just like High Capacity Fuel Tanks for Medivacs...) because it comes too late for the crucial early harass timing and P drops less in later stages of the game, because of needing to defend Terran drops and Lib mineral line harass. In most cases Terran is facing a slow WP. And what do you mean with "faster warp-in"? Compared to lone pylon in LotV or compared to HotS warp-in? You have no clue what you're talking about.... The risk to Terran is 20-30 supply in those drops, every full medivac usually has 10 supply total. You are literally putting at risk a lot of supply that can potentially do nothing if the enemy is sitting there in their base. Warp prism is 2 supply, 200 minerals. You do not have to ever commit to warping in anything, just the fact it's on the map means Protoss can have 10 gateways in your main at any point in the game. Not to mention if you fail warp-in the warp-ins cancel and you get the money back. Do you see the difference? One is insane risk, the other is almost zero risk.
Warp Prisms require you to have free supply / gateways on cooldown.
If you don't make units at home because you want to warp in at their base, you put yourself at risk of not having enough units at home. Terran units are far more mobile than Protoss units and have the ability to retreat. Protoss units cannot retreat vs Terran except with a Mothership core. So making units on the wrong side of the map can fuck you over whereas Terran can get home much faster to defend. Terran has non-stop unit production at their base, too, so naturally there are always reinforcements coming out to hold down the fort.
So, anything you drop as Terran, you can save. If you Warp in 10 Zealots and he's prepared, the most you can do is save 4.
They're 2 very different mechanics that have their pros and cons, guys. No need to get hung up on the exact differences.
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On February 10 2016 04:05 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2016 01:51 CheddarToss wrote:
TimeSpiral, there is no difference in risk between the WP and Medivac drops. Neither are high risk. Contrary to your last paragraph, speed is rarely researched (just like High Capacity Fuel Tanks for Medivacs...) because it comes too late for the crucial early harass timing and P drops less in later stages of the game, because of needing to defend Terran drops and Lib mineral line harass. In most cases Terran is facing a slow WP. And what do you mean with "faster warp-in"? Compared to lone pylon in LotV or compared to HotS warp-in? You have no clue what you're talking about.... The risk to Terran is 20-30 supply in those drops, every full medivac usually has 10 supply total. You are literally putting at risk a lot of supply that can potentially do nothing if the enemy is sitting there in their base. Warp prism is 2 supply, 200 minerals. You do not have to ever commit to warping in anything, just the fact it's on the map means Protoss can have 10 gateways in your main at any point in the game. Not to mention if you fail warp-in the warp-ins cancel and you get the money back. Do you see the difference? One is insane risk, the other is almost zero risk.
Its pretty rare for a warpprism to be killed empty, usually there are also 10 supply of units in it, similar to how some medivacs end up with 0-4 supply in them after some harrasment,
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On February 10 2016 04:09 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2016 04:05 avilo wrote:On February 10 2016 01:51 CheddarToss wrote:
TimeSpiral, there is no difference in risk between the WP and Medivac drops. Neither are high risk. Contrary to your last paragraph, speed is rarely researched (just like High Capacity Fuel Tanks for Medivacs...) because it comes too late for the crucial early harass timing and P drops less in later stages of the game, because of needing to defend Terran drops and Lib mineral line harass. In most cases Terran is facing a slow WP. And what do you mean with "faster warp-in"? Compared to lone pylon in LotV or compared to HotS warp-in? You have no clue what you're talking about.... The risk to Terran is 20-30 supply in those drops, every full medivac usually has 10 supply total. You are literally putting at risk a lot of supply that can potentially do nothing if the enemy is sitting there in their base. Warp prism is 2 supply, 200 minerals. You do not have to ever commit to warping in anything, just the fact it's on the map means Protoss can have 10 gateways in your main at any point in the game. Not to mention if you fail warp-in the warp-ins cancel and you get the money back. Do you see the difference? One is insane risk, the other is almost zero risk. Warp Prisms require you to have free supply / gateways on cooldown. If you don't make units at home because you want to warp in at their base, you put yourself at risk of not having enough units at home. Terran units are far more mobile than Protoss units and have the ability to retreat. Protoss units cannot retreat vs Terran except with a Mothership core. So making units on the wrong side of the map can fuck you over whereas Terran can get home much faster to defend. Terran has non-stop unit production at their base, too, so naturally there are always reinforcements coming out to hold down the fort. So, anything you drop as Terran, you can save. If you Warp in 10 Zealots and he's prepared, the most you can do is save 4. They're 2 very different mechanics that have their pros and cons, guys. No need to get hung up on the exact differences.
I guess the problem is, that even if your gateways are on cooldown an empty Prism is still a doom drop that can happen at any time for the enemy. Medivacs are more predictable, and sniping them before something happens gives alot of value. They can be empty. But you know how much to commit against it to be save.
I think the WoL Prism was more then fine. Fragile and fast. Required to much micro for the macro oriented play at high level though. LotV prism is insane, it's tanky and provides Blink to all units in a certain range. Its super fun to use. Shuttling up an army up a cliff is also super easy. I mean that worked in WoL already, but now you don't even need to know the map for it.
But Medivacs have some non micro battle value, which is pretty important in Sc2. So yeah same thing with different strength and weaknesses.
But just wanted to comment on removing siege tank pickup. Go ahead and give us hovertank upgrade. Or give them splash damage resistance.
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On February 10 2016 04:39 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2016 04:09 DinoMight wrote:On February 10 2016 04:05 avilo wrote:On February 10 2016 01:51 CheddarToss wrote:
TimeSpiral, there is no difference in risk between the WP and Medivac drops. Neither are high risk. Contrary to your last paragraph, speed is rarely researched (just like High Capacity Fuel Tanks for Medivacs...) because it comes too late for the crucial early harass timing and P drops less in later stages of the game, because of needing to defend Terran drops and Lib mineral line harass. In most cases Terran is facing a slow WP. And what do you mean with "faster warp-in"? Compared to lone pylon in LotV or compared to HotS warp-in? You have no clue what you're talking about.... The risk to Terran is 20-30 supply in those drops, every full medivac usually has 10 supply total. You are literally putting at risk a lot of supply that can potentially do nothing if the enemy is sitting there in their base. Warp prism is 2 supply, 200 minerals. You do not have to ever commit to warping in anything, just the fact it's on the map means Protoss can have 10 gateways in your main at any point in the game. Not to mention if you fail warp-in the warp-ins cancel and you get the money back. Do you see the difference? One is insane risk, the other is almost zero risk. Warp Prisms require you to have free supply / gateways on cooldown. If you don't make units at home because you want to warp in at their base, you put yourself at risk of not having enough units at home. Terran units are far more mobile than Protoss units and have the ability to retreat. Protoss units cannot retreat vs Terran except with a Mothership core. So making units on the wrong side of the map can fuck you over whereas Terran can get home much faster to defend. Terran has non-stop unit production at their base, too, so naturally there are always reinforcements coming out to hold down the fort. So, anything you drop as Terran, you can save. If you Warp in 10 Zealots and he's prepared, the most you can do is save 4. They're 2 very different mechanics that have their pros and cons, guys. No need to get hung up on the exact differences. I guess the problem is, that even if your gateways are on cooldown an empty Prism is still a doom drop that can happen at any time for the enemy. Medivacs are more predictable, and sniping them before something happens gives alot of value. They can be empty. But you know how much to commit against it to be save. I think the WoL Prism was more then fine. Fragile and fast. Required to much micro for the macro oriented play at high level though. LotV prism is insane, it's tanky and provides Blink to all units in a certain range. Its super fun to use. Shuttling up an army up a cliff is also super easy. I mean that worked in WoL already, but now you don't even need to know the map for it. But Medivacs have some non micro battle value, which is pretty important in Sc2. So yeah same thing with different strength and weaknesses. But just wanted to comment on removing siege tank pickup. Go ahead and give us hovertank upgrade. Or give them splash damage resistance.
Ok, but while you're doing all this cute elevator micro and blink micro you're sure as hell not macroing. And your opponent is massing more roaches/MMM.
It takes an incredible player to do these things AND also keep up on macro.
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Warp Prisms require you to have free supply / gateways on cooldown.
If you don't make units at home because you want to warp in at their base, you put yourself at risk of not having enough units at home.
No one wants to be supply blocked.
Terran has to take units away from their army after already spending the time to produce them. Toss can make a choice, is there an easy opening for a warp in/drop? If not then warp in at home. One more point towards the fact its lower risk, you dont need to commit to it in the same way. Its simply less risk, and thats fine.
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On February 10 2016 06:49 CounterOrder wrote:Show nested quote +
Warp Prisms require you to have free supply / gateways on cooldown.
If you don't make units at home because you want to warp in at their base, you put yourself at risk of not having enough units at home.
No one wants to be supply blocked. Terran has to take units away from their army after already spending the time to produce them. Toss can make a choice, is there an easy opening for a warp in/drop? If not then warp in at home. One more point towards the fact its lower risk, you dont need to commit to it in the same way. Its simply less risk, and thats fine.
It's less risk in certain ways and more in others.
If there's a counter attack, a Medivac with boost and bio are more mobile and are able to get back to help on defense.
A Warp Prism that's just warped in more units than it can carry is totally fucked.
They're not the same. They're not comparable, and this silly discussion really needs to end.
EDIT-
Also "is there an easy opening?" are you kidding me? Terran can scan a whole screen to see if there is an opening before dropping. I'm not trying to say one is better or worse I'm just trying to show you that this argument is dumb.
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On February 10 2016 07:55 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2016 06:49 CounterOrder wrote:
Warp Prisms require you to have free supply / gateways on cooldown.
If you don't make units at home because you want to warp in at their base, you put yourself at risk of not having enough units at home.
No one wants to be supply blocked. Terran has to take units away from their army after already spending the time to produce them. Toss can make a choice, is there an easy opening for a warp in/drop? If not then warp in at home. One more point towards the fact its lower risk, you dont need to commit to it in the same way. Its simply less risk, and thats fine. EDIT- Also "is there an easy opening?" are you kidding me? Terran can scan a whole screen to see if there is an opening before dropping. I'm not trying to say one is better or worse I'm just trying to show you that this argument is dumb.
FIXED IT:
Also "is there an easy opening?" are you kidding me? Terran can spend 250-ish minerals, target a section of the map, to get a brief glimpse. This form of scouting produces an on-screen warning for their opponent. All the while, Terran needs to have all the supply committed and near the drop zone, ready to go. I'm not trying to say one is--oh wait, I should describe the other: It's not like we Toss players get a 1-supply permanently-cloaked speed-upgraded flying unit that scouts and detect, or completely supply-independent zero-risk hallucinated scouts that are super fast, or--you know--the best scout in the game: the oracle. We have the worst scouting the game (and by worst I mean best by far).
p.s. Love you, Dino : )
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This is the dumbest argument I have ever read in the history of the internet.
Why does it even matter
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On February 11 2016 02:46 InfCereal wrote:
This is the dumbest argument I have ever read in the history of the internet.
Why does it even matter
Because the warp prism in a 200 mineral, tier-2 arbiter. At least the arbiter runs out of energy for a while after warping in. Warpins and medivacs totally change the nature of the game compared to BW. There is no positional/strategic play in SC2 because every position is easily bypassed. Those units are hardly the only reason why, but they're a part of it.
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On February 11 2016 03:28 BaronVonOwn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2016 02:46 InfCereal wrote:
This is the dumbest argument I have ever read in the history of the internet.
Why does it even matter Because the warp prism in a 200 mineral, tier-2 arbiter. At least the arbiter runs out of energy for a while after warping in. Warpins and medivacs totally change the nature of the game compared to BW. There is no positional/strategic play in SC2 because every position is easily bypassed. Those units are hardly the only reason why, but they're a part of it.
Warp ins are pretty bad but it's undeniably here to stay in its current form so let's move on.
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EPT
