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When tankivacs will disappear TvT will become interesting again, the only question at this point is how do you deal with ravagers?
Atm the most common solution is just to pick up the tank and avoid the bile, if you can't do this anymore how do you avoid insta kill?
On the other hand, alot of protosses are whinning about PvZ, win rate is low, the reason is not clearly identified afaik (maps? ravagers? lurkers?something else?)
Let's say the solution to PvZ could be a nerf to ravagers, it may also solve the issue of tanks being insta killed if they can't be picked up?
To sum up : removing tankivacs and then nerfing ravager may fix 3 match ups (TvT, TvZ and PvZ,...)
It's just assumptions though, needs to be tested somehow...
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On February 07 2016 23:12 Gwavajuice wrote:
When tankivacs will disappear TvT will become interesting again, the only question at this point is how do you deal with ravagers?
Atm the most common solution is just to pick up the tank and avoid the bile, if you can't do this anymore how do you avoid insta kill?
On the other hand, alot of protosses are whinning about PvZ, win rate is low, the reason is not clearly identified afaik (maps? ravagers? lurkers?something else?)
Let's say the solution to PvZ could be a nerf to ravagers, it may also solve the issue of tanks being insta killed if they can't be picked up?
To sum up : removing tankivacs and then nerfing ravager may fix 3 match ups (TvT, TvZ and PvZ,...)
It's just assumptions though, needs to be tested somehow...
Remember they used to mention about increase morphing time of ravager ?
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In BW, tanks splash originated from the direction the unit is hit from. In SC2, the splash is centered on the unit. Example:
L - ling
O - splash
T - tank
BW: T OZ
SC2: T oZo
It means that Tanks straight out are better against most targets, lings included.
Also, Tank fires 32% faster then the BW Tank. Because of this, the DPS of a Tank is in SC2 greater then the one in BW, even when you take into account the lower damage vs armored targets.
But the Tank's DPS is not an issue - Tank is a unit that performs best when its burst damage is great enough to kill targets.
Greater attack speed but lower damage means Tank is better against smaller/less tanky units. It also means that it performs worse against high hit point targets.
In BW, Tank fires slowly, but for higher damage against armored (large/medium) targets, meaning that you need less Tank shots to one-shot a unit.
In SC2, Tank fires fast, but for lower damage against armored targets, meaning that you need more Tanks to one-shot a unit.
What Tank needs, is to LOWER its attack speed, but INCREASE its damage, so you need less Tanks to one-shot high priority targets like Immortal, Stalkers, Lurkers, Roaches, Ravagers etc. It makes Tanks better at performing their job of a zone control/anti-armored unit.
It will mean that it will also perform worse against swarms of light targets like lings, but killing those is not a Tank's job - it is Hellbats/Hellions job to do that.
Increasing Tank's range will not help the Tank as much as changing it from fast firing pea shooter into slow firing one punch KO unit.
That is the fundamental reason why Tanks are bad in SC2.
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prion 3rd? err, im not sure if ur noticing blizz but there are 2 . . thirds! ive never gone to the non gold first as its easier to defend i find, barely any choke. . oh well i dont care i roll with all of the punches
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On February 07 2016 23:24 beheamoth wrote:
prion 3rd? err, im not sure if ur noticing blizz but there are 2 . . thirds! ive never gone to the non gold first as its easier to defend i find, barely any choke. . oh well i dont care i roll with all of the punches
The pocket base is regarded as the third.
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still nothing about invincible Nydus ? With the changes to overcharge this is imo quite an important issue. The +shield nerf on disruptors is really needed too.
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TvP is far away from balanced. Would still like to see something about Adept's Shade ability or something about Oracle opening to invisible 3base.
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The adept is still a ridiculous unit in every respect. Disappointingly, it replaced the zealot, which was a staple protoss unit in all matchups. That is terrible from a design viewpoint. It should have its strength and weaknesses, not being excellent at harass and at the same time filling in as a tanker and assault unit. It surpasses the zealot in both respects (far surpasses it as a harass unit).
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On February 08 2016 09:46 cheekymonkey wrote:
The adept is still a ridiculous unit in every respect. Disappointingly, it replaced the zealot, which was a staple protoss unit in all matchups. That is terrible from a design viewpoint. It should have its strength and weaknesses, not being excellent at harass and at the same time filling in as a tanker and assault unit. It surpasses the zealot in both respects (far surpasses it as a harass unit).
It hasn't replaced the Zealot. In PvP Adepts are only used early game for scouting and pressure, I can't even remember the last time I saw someone get the Adept upgrade in PvP. In PvZ Adepts are strong but they aren't that great army units unlike Chargelots which are the core of most PvZ armies these days. Really PvT is the only matchup where Adepts are good core army units.
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On February 08 2016 09:46 cheekymonkey wrote:
The adept is still a ridiculous unit in every respect. Disappointingly, it replaced the zealot, which was a staple protoss unit in all matchups. That is terrible from a design viewpoint. It should have its strength and weaknesses, not being excellent at harass and at the same time filling in as a tanker and assault unit. It surpasses the zealot in both respects (far surpasses it as a harass unit).
nah it's inferior as a damage dealer. Lategame armies usually don't have adepts because even the 25 gas are precious. It's a tank that can hit various timings in PvT (and to a lesser extent PvZ). But it doesn't replace the zealot at all. As others pointed out, no one goes adepts in PvP past the early game skirmishes.
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It seems like the main issue for TvT has to do with mass drops into your base that can't be stopped unless your whole army is waiting in your base. I think this is an issue with the speedvac, more so than tanks or the pick up and drops style. If you remove the speedvac then this will allow for the pickup siege tank tactics and allow for defending your base from doom drops.
The main issue with tanks vs ravagers is corrosive bile. It's not overpowered at all, however, the low cool down allows for a lot of spamming. It would be great to make the cool down longer. Zerg can still crack open a front wall, hit a few tanks, without completely ending the game. This also allows the defender to have a short window of time to try and regroup. This would also make force-field vs corrosive bile more interesting as players will be forced to make decisions on the fly.
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On February 09 2016 05:16 ShoNuff23 wrote:
It seems like the main issue for TvT has to do with mass drops into your base that can't be stopped unless your whole army is waiting in your base. I think this is an issue with the speedvac, more so than tanks or the pick up and drops style. If you remove the speedvac then this will allow for the pickup siege tank tactics and allow for defending your base from doom drops.
The main issue with tanks vs ravagers is corrosive bile. It's not overpowered at all, however, the low cool down allows for a lot of spamming. It would be great to make the cool down longer. Zerg can still crack open a front wall, hit a few tanks, without completely ending the game. This also allows the defender to have a short window of time to try and regroup. This would also make force-field vs corrosive bile more interesting as players will be forced to make decisions on the fly.
The problem with slow Medivacs is that ... well, they're actually slow. They're slower than Mutas, Phoenix, Stalkers, warp prism... and unlike WP, they expose critical army resources to being sniped in transit.
If you're ensuring that fewer drops get to the target, and fewer drops get back safely, then there have to be more drops to compensate. Meaning probably a significant buff to MULEs. Which would make stuff like Hellbat pushes way stronger, and nobody wants that.
...
I really wish Blizzard would try just increasing the delay before a dropped sieged tank can fire. HotS TvT produced amazing games. Just put the fear of defensive bio back into sieged tanks and that should make a huge difference.
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If Blizzard decides to buff the tank, here is an upgrade for the siege tank which I think would be very useful:
Advanced ballistics.
150/150, 110 seconds, tech lab upgrade, unlocked with armory.
When in siege mode, the range of the siege tank increases by 1 from its base range every second, up till a maximum range of 18. Attacking causes the the range increase to reset back to 0.
What does this upgrade do? It enables the siege tank to attack from long range, yet makes things balanced by increasing the cooldown of being able to fire again at the same range. The siege tank can attack units in 13 range with 3 sec cooldown, 15 range with 5 second cooldown, etc, up till 18 range with 8 second cooldown.
This would create very interesting game dynamics where a Terran can slow siege a target while the opponent tries to exploit the siege tank's long cooldown to try to rush in and attack.
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On February 09 2016 05:16 ShoNuff23 wrote:
It seems like the main issue for TvT has to do with mass drops into your base that can't be stopped unless your whole army is waiting in your base. I think this is an issue with the speedvac, more so than tanks or the pick up and drops style. If you remove the speedvac then this will allow for the pickup siege tank tactics and allow for defending your base from doom drops.
The main issue with tanks vs ravagers is corrosive bile. It's not overpowered at all, however, the low cool down allows for a lot of spamming. It would be great to make the cool down longer. Zerg can still crack open a front wall, hit a few tanks, without completely ending the game. This also allows the defender to have a short window of time to try and regroup. This would also make force-field vs corrosive bile more interesting as players will be forced to make decisions on the fly.
No that's not the main issue at all. Doom drop always existed, and now you can defend them by simply droping your own tanks for defense.
In HotS when your opponent had tanks sieged in your main, it was very difficult to not loose. In LotV it's way easier.
The real problem of tankivacs in TvT is the fact that with a marine support this compisition can outmanouver any other army composition and break any kind of defense : you find the correct angle you boost, drop the tanks and stim the marines in, and voila.
Therefore 1) you are forced to go for this composition, making every TvT based on the same 3 units 2) you don't have the global positionning strategy and map control all good old TvT had cause now it's just about who will drop in the money spot to kill their opponents tanks before they attack back.
You loose units diversity and strategy aspect. Actually, even roach vs roach in ZvZ was way more interesting than the current TvT meta.
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Something that baffles me is how in the name of David Kim is the warp prism blink pickup still in the game? I don't mind it balance-wise, but GOD how stupid is it that you can overextend 5 range with a harass drop and still get safely into your dropship?
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On February 09 2016 12:19 JackONeill wrote:
Something that baffles me is how in the name of David Kim is the warp prism blink pickup still in the game? I don't mind it balance-wise, but GOD how stupid is it that you can overextend 5 range with a harass drop and still get safely into your dropship?
It's not different than speedvacs. Both features (pickup range and speed) serve the purpose of being able to do damage and get out of there with minimal loses.
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Speedivac is dumb in its own way, but at least you can't pickup from a safe distance without commiting the dropship. Even with the boost, you can't drop to close without loosing hitpoints.
Not only with the prism can you do that, but half its healthpool regenerates AND with the speed it's like a permaboosted medivac, so I think my point stands...
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On February 09 2016 12:25 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 12:19 JackONeill wrote:
Something that baffles me is how in the name of David Kim is the warp prism blink pickup still in the game? I don't mind it balance-wise, but GOD how stupid is it that you can overextend 5 range with a harass drop and still get safely into your dropship? It's not different than speedvacs. Both features (pickup range and speed) serve the purpose of being able to do damage and get out of there with minimal loses.
That the is the purpose of warp prism speed upgrade. Pickup range buff is overkill and rewards poor play.
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On February 09 2016 13:31 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2016 12:25 CheddarToss wrote:On February 09 2016 12:19 JackONeill wrote:
Something that baffles me is how in the name of David Kim is the warp prism blink pickup still in the game? I don't mind it balance-wise, but GOD how stupid is it that you can overextend 5 range with a harass drop and still get safely into your dropship? It's not different than speedvacs. Both features (pickup range and speed) serve the purpose of being able to do damage and get out of there with minimal loses. That the is the purpose of warp prism speed upgrade. Pickup range buff is overkill and rewards poor play.
Pickup range allows for Protoss harass, which wasn't possible before, due to slow movement speed of Protoss units. If you remember, there was only WP harass in WoL/HotS in the late game with chargelots. Now, thanks to pickup range we see Protoss harass which is similar to medivac harass from Terran, which is a good thing, since it allows for more dynamic games, instead of turtlefest with Deathball vs Deathball. WP speed upgrade minimizes the risk of losing high cost units, like disruptors and HTs, but it does nothing for early game harass, because it comes too late.
On February 09 2016 12:42 JackONeill wrote:
Speedivac is dumb in its own way, but at least you can't pickup from a safe distance without commiting the dropship. Even with the boost, you can't drop to close without loosing hitpoints.
Not only with the prism can you do that, but half its healthpool regenerates AND with the speed it's like a permaboosted medivac, so I think my point stands...
And which point is that, that the Protoss dropship unit is different than Terran dropship unit? If you want to play an RTS game with different "skins" instead of truly different races, there are a number of other games out there. But if you want an RTS with asymmetric race design, then you have to accept that different races work differently and need units with different stats and features to be balanced.
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What are you talking about cheddartoss. There was plenty of HotS warp prism harrass, especially with the speed upgrade. perhaps not in PvP but certainly in the other matchups. There reason there isn't as much deathball syndrome in LotV is because of the strength of adepts and the nerf of the collosus.
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EPT
