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Community Feedback Update - February 4 - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
298 CommentsPost a Reply
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seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
February 06 2016 09:17 GMT
#181
Bring mech base on siege tank back kinda hard decision because it came from brood war and this is sc2.I believe they hardly accept a sequel which have exact same playstyle with new unit but i'm happy they tried in HOTS tho.
Another thing is how we solve the rest if we can bring back old style ?We can't just torn down air unit and caster because very little interact in that way.If we torn down them meanwhile buff mech so how another race win again mech ?Everyone just asking for buff and nerf but never mention this issue.We need a huge redesign on another race too and that why i think bring back brood war mech style is very hard decision because this is sc2.
Djangoobie
Profile Joined February 2014
13 Posts
February 06 2016 09:34 GMT
#182
On February 06 2016 08:55 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2016 05:10 Djangoobie wrote:
There are several things they can try to adjust the Siege Tank.

- Adjusting the accuracy depending on the range from the target. The further it is, the more inaccurate the attack should be. If they improve the damage output(which should be the case if tankivacs get nerfed), you get Siege Tanks that don't accurately deal too much damage from afar but punish stuff from mid-range/close. Weapon upgrades should also improve the accuracy.

- Adjust the damage based on distance from target. Same as above except they always hit, but with less strength from afar.

- Adjust the fire rate depending on the range from the target. The closer the target is the faster the tank fires. Weapon upgrades should improve the fire rate.

There are more ways to make the tank very powerful, but punishable. If you decrease the turret rotation speed, fast or flanking units can punish it before it even fires.


Wouldn't it make more sense for theirr accuracy to be worse the closer they are?


They still won't fire at melee units(like zerglings) when close. If the turret rotates slower, fast units can flank it. I forgot to mention the falloff range should be added to the range, not subtracted.

If they increase the damage output and the range, I don't want them to be too powerful from a distance. You get boring camping games where one tank outranges the other.

I photoshopped what I meant on a screenshot I found at google. In the inner circle radius the stats should be 100%(accuracy/damage or fire rate). In the second circle it should be lower. Maybe something up to 30% at the end of the circle.
[image loading]
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
February 06 2016 10:29 GMT
#183
I also suggested this
On February 06 2016 04:54 Loccstana wrote:
I would like to see a siege tank range buff to 16 units and also a single target damage increase.

I like it for 2 reasons:
1) it doesn't punish enemies as much for getting into range as a damage buff would but it does make it more of a commitment to attack into a sieged position.
2) it still requires T to have additional vision (which isn't free). This could add some good trade dynamics.

I'd also have this be a tech-lab upgrade (maybe armory requirement).
FFGenerations
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
7088 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-06 10:32:10
February 06 2016 10:30 GMT
#184
or you could make tanks fire 2x slower whilst having huge impact when they actually hit and making them micro-worthy for player (positioning) and opponent (baiting shots before attacking en mass)

i.e. the same as broodwar tanks not these machine-gun tanks you guys have in sc2

i have no idea what you're talking about but BW tanks do it right in every way and it might be because they fire much much slower than sc2 tanks (afaik) :|
Cool BW Music Vid - youtube.com/watch?v=W54nlqJ-Nx8 ~~~~~ ᕤ OYSTERS ᕤ CLAMS ᕤ AND ᕤ CUCKOLDS ᕤ ~~~~~~ ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ PUNCH HIM ༼ ᕤ◕◡◕ ༽ᕤ
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28483 Posts
February 06 2016 10:31 GMT
#185
Meanwhile the best idea since the Hydraroach got ignored
On February 05 2016 09:37 Penev wrote:
Remove tankivacs but still have Medivacs be able to attach to a sieged tank. It then can function as a shield against corrosive bile

Solved! :D

I Protoss winner, could it be?
seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
February 06 2016 10:35 GMT
#186
On February 06 2016 19:31 Penev wrote:
Meanwhile the best idea since the Hydraroach got ignored
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2016 09:37 Penev wrote:
Remove tankivacs but still have Medivacs be able to attach to a sieged tank. It then can function as a shield against corrosive bile

Solved! :D


Sr i don't understand.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28483 Posts
February 06 2016 11:02 GMT
#187
On February 06 2016 19:35 seemsgood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2016 19:31 Penev wrote:
Meanwhile the best idea since the Hydraroach got ignored
On February 05 2016 09:37 Penev wrote:
Remove tankivacs but still have Medivacs be able to attach to a sieged tank. It then can function as a shield against corrosive bile

Solved! :D


Sr i don't understand.

The Hydraroach:
[image loading]
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/153275-sick-new-unit-idea

The Umbrellatank:

A sieged tank with a medivac on top. On the ground ofc, otherwise it'd be silly
I Protoss winner, could it be?
DemigodcelpH
Profile Joined August 2011
1138 Posts
February 06 2016 11:12 GMT
#188
We could look into things many players have pointed out already such as: increasing Siege Tank damage slightly


Good job Blizzard. It only took the community 5 years of complaining to get a "maybe".
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
February 06 2016 11:20 GMT
#189
Tank needs to be revised from its current "fast firing, low damage" to "slow firing, high damage" variant.
Brood War Tank has less DPS then SC2 Tank. So what exactly is wrong with the Tank as we know it?

I'm going to quote a great post by TerranicII on Blizzard forums that sums up my thoughts better then anything, since I'm not a native English speaker.
+ Show Spoiler +

That doesn't matter. Tanks are strongest when there are enough of them to one-shot a unit. They operate on burst and killing power, not DPS.
The rule of thumb for Tanks is that you want enough Tanks to one-shot any armored or large unit the enemy throws at you, or a multiple of that number. Anything less is very inefficient in practice, regardless of the attack rate, and other support units (Hellbats, Vultures, Goliaths, etc) should be used to hold or kill the other units (mostly light or squishy units) the enemy will use.

Brood War Tanks killed units in fewer shots, so players needed less of them for critical mass. Brood War Terran only needed 2 Tanks to one-shot most units in TvZ and TvT, and 3 shots for Dragoons and Reavers in TvP. Terran never needed more than 6 Tanks (Archon or Ultralisk) for critical mass in any match-up. Thismade mech very versatile.

The StarCraft II Tank is much weaker:
Terran needs up to 11 Tanks for critical mass in TvP (this used to be 14 with hardened shields), and up to 10 for critical mass in TvZ. These same numbers would be 6(5 with upgrades) and 8 (7 with upgrades) for the old Tank. The critical mass for SC2 against squishier units is also 3 or 4 in every match-up instead of 2/3.
- SC2 Tanks also cost more supply, meaning that mech has less army (less Tanks and less support).
Taken together, Terran needs almost twice the supply of Tanks for the same effect in most match-ups.
- StarCraft II Tanks also hit in a smaller area. Brood War units hit in squares rather than circles, so the StarCraft II Tank would need an outer splash radius of 1.41 to cover the same area as its Brood War predecessor. The attack range follows the same principles, and SC2 Tanks would need about 13.54 range for the same coverage.
- The attack rate change is not that much. The old Tank fired with an attack cooldown of about 4.166 seconds (normal time) when translated into SC2. That is 2.9757 seconds in LOTV's faster setting. SC2 Tanks fire (fixed) around 32% faster, which is smaller than the supply difference and the burst damage loss.
SC2 Tanks perform somewhat better against light units, but that is pointless considering that Hellions, Hellbats, Vultures, both Mines, and Goliaths all perform better against light ground units by design. The Tank has an anti-armor/anti-large role in mech, and this is where the Tank is most lacking.

On top of all of this, the Tank's design only works when its damage, supply cost, and rate of fire are balanced against the mobility and durability of the opposing army. StarCraft II units are almost always more durable and more mobile, and they often even have relocating abilities (like Blink, Warpgates, Charge, Adept's shade) or abilities that punish units that cannot move (Blinding Cloud, the Ravager's bile shot, etc) that increase the Tank's strength requirements even more. A balanced SC2 Tank would be much stronger than the Brood War variant by necessity.

The current SC2 Tank is just bad.

Response: I do think that if the tank fired more quickly the lower damage would be justifiable because it would mean more frequent damage, killing power doesn't deminish with increased dps and lowered burst damage.

No, you are completely wrong on that point, and an attack speed buff would be a very bad change for multiple reasons:
-The accidental friendly-fire on support would become much more common because the player must manually target many more shots (one top of his/her other micro) to prevent it. This is counter productive to mech's viability.
-Attack speed buffs are indiscriminate. Mech doesn't have a problem with Marines and Zerglings, it needs more damage to kill armored and massive targets. Buffing the Tank's attack speed makes it a problem in TvT long before it fixes any of the Tank's problems in the other match-ups. The Tank's problem is best fixed by adding specialized burst damage, or even increasing the attack cooldown to give the Tank far greater burst damage.

-A faster-shooting Tank cannot be balanced with enough damage to be any better at its job. Faster shooting units tend to be extremely efficient against squishy targets (which they kill in short succession) and very inefficient against the tougher units (which take much longer). For splash damage units in particular, a fast attack rate will let them kill squishy targets in droves while anything tougher will last many waves. Shredders were scrapped because they had this very problem. They slaughtered Zerglings and workers within seconds, but they took many times longer to kill Zealots and other tough units that could just shrug them off.
Zone control units need to inflict their damage in large bursts to be successful. The burst is extremely important because it allows the unit to be balanced with a high damage output against tough targets (such as Ultralisks, Archons, Thors, Stalkers, etc) without really increasing their strength against squishy targets (most of the extra damage is lost on overkill). The Brood War Tank was only successful because it inflicted such high burst damage. A faster attacking, lower-damage variant would have sucked against everything.

-Attack speed buffs do very little in the small engagements that LOTV is supposed to promote. The exact number of Tanks is always far more important than their attack rate in small engagements because they don't have as much time (not as much of a barrier, and not as many Tanks) for repeated volleys. Tanks that can ensure each kill are far more valuable in small engagements than Tanks that will probably die waiting for the third or fourth or fifth volley. Attack speed buffs have the greatest affect in large engagements, where Tanks have a larger barrier giving them far more time to fire, and the excess number of Tanks can kill wave after wave with each volley.
In short, buffing the Tank's attack speed makes the death-ball problem much worse because faster-attacking units are generally far more efficient in large engagements. Faster attacking units also cannot be balanced with enough splash damage to break up death-balls from the opponent (Reavers and Disruptors can, Colossus cannot; Spider Mines and Widow Mines can, Shredders could not unless the opposing army was squishy as mud; etc).

-Buffing the attack rate would also makes Tank death-balls much worse, since the Tanks would inflict their damage

because it will kill squishy units far too quickly to be balanced with the DPS it needs for tougher targets (Stalkers, Marauders, Immortals, Colossus, Ultralisks, etc). The Tank needs to inflict damage in large bursts (wasting most of their DPS on squishier targets as overkill damage) in order to be balanced with the damage.

It is better to have a long cooldown tank with a very high burst than to have a short cooldown Tank with a very small burst. Short cooldown, low-burst Tanks just don't work outside of a very large army. This is one of the problems with StarCraft II mech.

m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
February 06 2016 12:23 GMT
#190
Please no buff to another air unit.. Adjust the tank, not something that isn't even related to the role that tankivacs fulfill in TvZ (and wouldn't even help, at all).
On track to MA1950A.
DanceSC
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States751 Posts
February 06 2016 14:18 GMT
#191
don't increase the range on the tank, decrease the range on the lurker and decrease the movement speed of all units very slightly. Reason: increasing tank range allows more tanks to populate a given area providing more dps to a single spot, if you decrease the movement speed of all units then the tank will be allowed to shoot sooner or possibly get an additional shot off, without increasing the max damage cap
Dance.943 || "I think he's just going to lose. There's only so many ways you can lose. And he's going to make some kind of units. And I'm going to attack him, and then all his stuff is going to die. That's about the best prediction that I can make" - NonY
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
February 06 2016 14:19 GMT
#192
On February 06 2016 20:12 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Show nested quote +
We could look into things many players have pointed out already such as: increasing Siege Tank damage slightly


Good job Blizzard. It only took the community 5 years of complaining to get a "maybe".


5 years is better than never.
rip passion
PinoKotsBeer
Profile Joined February 2014
Netherlands1385 Posts
February 06 2016 14:23 GMT
#193
On February 06 2016 19:29 y0su wrote:
I also suggested this
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2016 04:54 Loccstana wrote:
I would like to see a siege tank range buff to 16 units and also a single target damage increase.

I like it for 2 reasons:
1) it doesn't punish enemies as much for getting into range as a damage buff would but it does make it more of a commitment to attack into a sieged position.
2) it still requires T to have additional vision (which isn't free). This could add some good trade dynamics.

I'd also have this be a tech-lab upgrade (maybe armory requirement).

i agree with this as well. It will also help to make mech more viable vs [stalker disruptor] and [roach ravenger] combinations without making the tanks instant OP in larger numbers.
Would be nice to test it on the test map.
http://www.twitch.tv/pinokotsbeer
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16769 Posts
February 06 2016 14:26 GMT
#194
what about buffing what a Tank can do while it is in Tank mode so that it is used more in Tank mode?
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
February 06 2016 14:40 GMT
#195
apparently cyclon lock on isn't working properly
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/503667-serious-problemor-bug-on-cyclone#4
lock on (7) is triggering at attack range (5).
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20303 Posts
February 06 2016 18:00 GMT
#196
On February 06 2016 23:40 y0su wrote:
apparently cyclon lock on isn't working properly
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/503667-serious-problemor-bug-on-cyclone#4
lock on (7) is triggering at attack range (5).


thought this was common knowledge already but apparantly not
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
February 06 2016 22:05 GMT
#197
On February 06 2016 23:18 DanceSC wrote:
don't increase the range on the tank, decrease the range on the lurker and decrease the movement speed of all units very slightly. Reason: increasing tank range allows more tanks to populate a given area providing more dps to a single spot, if you decrease the movement speed of all units then the tank will be allowed to shoot sooner or possibly get an additional shot off, without increasing the max damage cap

Seems easier to change one unit
Beelzebub1
Profile Joined May 2015
1004 Posts
February 07 2016 05:22 GMT
#198
On February 05 2016 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:
Please please don't change disruptors. It's okay to have some units that come up a lot, and the macro disruptor games are really skillful and entertaining.

Tankivacs, I don't really care. I was excited at first because I thought TvP might be too good for T after the two nerfs; that hasn't happened yet, so I have no opinion on this.

Pretending PvZ doesn't exist: great idea! You should totally pursue this, nobody will notice.


Not really sure Protoss needs any specific buffs to deal with Zerg, seems like an issue adjusting to LOTV and tailoring the builds and compositions considering Protoss was so radically altered.

If you aren't trying Phoenix into Chargelot/Archon/Immortal then your doing PvZ wrong.
Fig
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1324 Posts
February 07 2016 13:37 GMT
#199
On February 07 2016 14:22 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2016 07:36 Nebuchad wrote:
Please please don't change disruptors. It's okay to have some units that come up a lot, and the macro disruptor games are really skillful and entertaining.

Tankivacs, I don't really care. I was excited at first because I thought TvP might be too good for T after the two nerfs; that hasn't happened yet, so I have no opinion on this.

Pretending PvZ doesn't exist: great idea! You should totally pursue this, nobody will notice.


Not really sure Protoss needs any specific buffs to deal with Zerg, seems like an issue adjusting to LOTV and tailoring the builds and compositions considering Protoss was so radically altered.

If you aren't trying Phoenix into Chargelot/Archon/Immortal then your doing PvZ wrong.

Everyone needs to constantly adjust, not just protoss. When PO is nerfed it means protoss must play more safely, but it also means zergs can explore more aggressive options, or they can become greedier with toss focusing more on defense at home. If after the new changes there is, as you suggest, only one good composition for toss (which I've already been using a version of since HotS), then that is a bad sign for a matchup where zergs have a multitude of choices that are only increasing. But I'm fine with waiting a while to see what comes of all this.
Can't elope with my cantaloupe
SpecKROELLchen
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany151 Posts
February 07 2016 13:55 GMT
#200
Hm the attackspeed is faster but the unitspeed seems also faster. I mean a siegetank can still just shoot 1 time until zlings arrive at its location. So increasing the radius would be nice ( upgrade would be needed to prevent 1/1/1 ).
But still some z allins or pushes would be really hard to defend without tankivac
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