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On February 02 2016 01:57 y0su wrote:
I couldn't get past groups being mutually exclusive...
I enjoy watching the highest level competition where each player lives in a team-house and has had a week (or more) to prepare and practice amazing crisp builds. I love seeing coaches decide who the ace player will be and to see the perfect snipe build - or blunder where they guess the opponent's ace wrong. I want to see builds and micro that will blow my mind. That is STARCRAFT at it's finest.
But I enjoy more than that. I love competition at almost every level. I think the game is awesome at my poor level. I actually got into casting mid-master level players practice against each other because I wanted an excuse to be in the game. I used to watch 4-6 personal streams at a time. It didn't matter what race or skill.
As someone that's always been very passionate about my heritage (half Finnish) I cheer for every Finn. I don't care what tournament. I've attended several local LANs to cast the 200€ tournaments. Not because the 50-200 viewers were going to make me famous (they haven't) but because I FUCKING LOVE STARCRAFT.
So... which group do I belong to before I continue reading?
Casuals, easily. You show symptoms of respect for lower level players. /s
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On February 02 2016 01:57 y0su wrote:
I couldn't get past groups being mutually exclusive...
I enjoy watching the highest level competition where each player lives in a team-house and has had a week (or more) to prepare and practice amazing crisp builds. I love seeing coaches decide who the ace player will be and to see the perfect snipe build - or blunder where they guess the opponent's ace wrong. I want to see builds and micro that will blow my mind. That is STARCRAFT at it's finest.
But I enjoy more than that. I love competition at almost every level. I think the game is awesome at my poor level. I actually got into casting mid-master level players practice against each other because I wanted an excuse to be in the game. I used to watch 4-6 personal streams at a time. It didn't matter what race or skill.
As someone that's always been very passionate about my heritage (half Finnish) I cheer for every Finn. I don't care what tournament. I've attended several local LANs to cast the 200€ tournaments. Not because the 50-200 viewers were going to make me famous (they haven't) but because I FUCKING LOVE STARCRAFT.
So... which group do I belong to before I continue reading?
Neither, both, whatever. That's not the point. Continue reading.
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On February 02 2016 01:56 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 01:35 Hoofit wrote:
Interesting article, thanks for that.
I think with the RL article when hes not decrying 'social justice' or complaining about boring personalities he is arguing for an increase of fun or personality, thats what he thinks esports is. I have to say that I agree with him that esports should be more fun, should have more personality, I was never really a fan of Idra but I think he was good for the scene, people wanted to watch his games, to see his reactions. Idra leaving a won game after hallucinated colossus in a pique of rage is still one of my favourite moments in Sc2.
I think that there are certainly different types of viewers in Sc2, though I see it as a scale or continuum and at the end the two are in quite vocal opposition. I'd describe one end as one who wants to wants to watch entertaining or enjoyable Sc2 (similar to fun in your example) and the other people who want to watch the most high level or best Sc2 matches (competitive in your example).
One point I'd like to make though as whilst I'm closer to 'fun' than 'competitive' in your definition I don't think that means that I or other 'fun lovers' don't enjoy entertaining games more than I enjoy silly interviews etc. I'm not just after flashy graphics or a silly interview; I'd prefer to watch a competitive, interesting game than listen to a silly interview or hype cast. Its just that I find it easier to get behind someone (root for someone) that has personality or that I can identify with (local heroes etc).
Anyways, great well written post and I would certainly agree that the Sc2 community does have an identity crisis.
* Colossi Voidrays 
Whoooooops!
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 02 2016 02:03 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 01:57 y0su wrote:
I couldn't get past groups being mutually exclusive...
I enjoy watching the highest level competition where each player lives in a team-house and has had a week (or more) to prepare and practice amazing crisp builds. I love seeing coaches decide who the ace player will be and to see the perfect snipe build - or blunder where they guess the opponent's ace wrong. I want to see builds and micro that will blow my mind. That is STARCRAFT at it's finest.
But I enjoy more than that. I love competition at almost every level. I think the game is awesome at my poor level. I actually got into casting mid-master level players practice against each other because I wanted an excuse to be in the game. I used to watch 4-6 personal streams at a time. It didn't matter what race or skill.
As someone that's always been very passionate about my heritage (half Finnish) I cheer for every Finn. I don't care what tournament. I've attended several local LANs to cast the 200€ tournaments. Not because the 50-200 viewers were going to make me famous (they haven't) but because I FUCKING LOVE STARCRAFT.
So... which group do I belong to before I continue reading? Neither, both, whatever. That's not the point. Continue reading.
I should have probably phrased it better.
New phrasing: the extreme versions of both categories are mutually exclusive!
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On February 02 2016 02:03 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 01:57 y0su wrote:
I couldn't get past groups being mutually exclusive...
I enjoy watching the highest level competition where each player lives in a team-house and has had a week (or more) to prepare and practice amazing crisp builds. I love seeing coaches decide who the ace player will be and to see the perfect snipe build - or blunder where they guess the opponent's ace wrong. I want to see builds and micro that will blow my mind. That is STARCRAFT at it's finest.
But I enjoy more than that. I love competition at almost every level. I think the game is awesome at my poor level. I actually got into casting mid-master level players practice against each other because I wanted an excuse to be in the game. I used to watch 4-6 personal streams at a time. It didn't matter what race or skill.
As someone that's always been very passionate about my heritage (half Finnish) I cheer for every Finn. I don't care what tournament. I've attended several local LANs to cast the 200€ tournaments. Not because the 50-200 viewers were going to make me famous (they haven't) but because I FUCKING LOVE STARCRAFT.
So... which group do I belong to before I continue reading? Casuals, easily. You show symptoms of respect for lower level players. /s
Haha thanks you have resumed my thoughts about this awkward article in one sentence 
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Fantastically good post. Thanks! Some observations from me below.
"Casual" crowd versus the "informed" crowd:
StarCraft (BW/SC2) is in my opinion the most difficult RTS that exists. It is difficult to understand and impossible to master. To understand it, you need to have at the very least, the insight that comes from casual playing.
I have tried to introduce it to a few of my friends that have never touched the game. The result has always been one of utter confusion. One friend has a kid brother that plays CS (and is considered good on a local level), this kid tried SC2 a year ago or so and just said this. "I could not understand a single thing that was happening, it was too complex". And that pretty much sums it up. This game is hard mechanically and cerebrally.
As such, it is always going to be a niche game attracting individuals that enjoy puzzles, trickery, planning, strategy, psychology, tactics, thinking on your feet (adapting to new information) and technical excellence such as multitasking, micro and macro.
Artosis compares it to chess. The only difference between chess and StarCraft is the lack of multitasking, micro and macro in the former.
Solution to the identity problem of StarCraft?
- Accept that it can not ever be a major e-sport for uninformed viewers. It is as specialized as Chess is.
- Accept that flashy production and hype can only have temporary value. Lasting value comes from depth and consistency.
- Accept that this limited crowd expects the highest possible competition in every tournament. That is: regional tournaments should only determine local heroes if it is justifiable such as crowning the best StarCraft player in the US. All other tournaments should be open to all.
This game is played over the net and as such transcends borders. Korean players should be able to play in any tournament anywhere except national championships. The current WCS is subsequently flawed.
StarCraft is also, more than any other game in my opinion, a game of the highest status possible. It is the high water mark of what competitive e-sport can be. As such, some aspects of the game should be wrestled out of Blizzards hands and given to the community, such as balance and tournament structure.
Just my thoughts.
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On February 02 2016 01:32 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:41 Gemini_19 wrote:On February 02 2016 00:31 Gwavajuice wrote:
You miss that the whole point of WCS region lock could be to develop the skill of foreigners and to end up with an even higher level of play worldwide.
How does keeping the foreigners from playing against the best end up making them higher level players? It doesn't. Region locking improving foreign play is a myth, anyone that has followed the scene in any kind of capacity knows this. The gap between top foreign players and korean players was at its closest during a time when there was absolutely NO region locking whatsoever. The gap has only grown wider over time. Region locking has nothing to do with improving foreign play. It exists because there was a portion of the community that simply hated seeing an Asian man win everything. That's literally what it comes down to.
Look at tennis, and see how a player like Serena Williams is treated compared to other players such as Sharapova. This is a racial issue from the start and it's nothing new to sports.
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Obviously we wouldn't watch anything if not for the entertainment, whether its hardcore or casual...
I think the Arsenal BPL commentators do a really good job of providing play by play and overall strategic analysis while at the same time interjecting bits of humor from their experiences as football players. It's professional, but it's not too dry. And that's ENGLISH FOOTBALL.
For StarCraft I think the cast should obviously be a bit more casual, but it should still focus on important things like "why did he not scout" that sub Diamond/Masters players can't figure out on their own. The cast shouldn't just be 20 minutes of play by play what's happening and jokes...
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On February 02 2016 01:32 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:41 Gemini_19 wrote:On February 02 2016 00:31 Gwavajuice wrote:
You miss that the whole point of WCS region lock could be to develop the skill of foreigners and to end up with an even higher level of play worldwide.
How does keeping the foreigners from playing against the best end up making them higher level players? It doesn't. Region locking improving foreign play is a myth, anyone that has followed the scene in any kind of capacity knows this. The gap between top foreign players and korean players was at its closest during a time when there was absolutely NO region locking whatsoever. The gap has only grown wider over time. Region locking has nothing to do with improving foreign play. It exists because there was a portion of the community that simply hated seeing an Asian man win everything. That's literally what it comes down to.
Has the amount of foreigner players in premier league made English players better? I could argue that the level of English players is the worst it's ever been. But is it because of the foreigner players in the league or the training of the youth? So can u really say that region locking was the reason of foreigners getting worse or was it actually made too late to save foreigner players?
I think it's not as black and white, whether region lock actually is good or bad for foreigner players. I think the foreigner scene has always been about those few good players but the total level of scene hasn't really changed that much compared to Korean scene.
The fact that to be the best you have train a lot and rather with people that are better or as good as you are. But were foreigners really training a lot with Koreans when regions were not locked? Getting stomped few times a year is not what makes u better but good training. And why Koreans are so good is that they have bigger pool of players giving it all to the game and better practice. I think region lock aims to widen the pool of foreigner players that can and want to play competitive (more price money left for them). With bigger pool of players aiming to the top there's more good practice partners to figure the game out with. And hopefully in the end that would end up the whole level of the foreigner scene catching up with Korean scene. At least I think that's what Blizzard is aiming for with region locking. Whether it actually works like that I'm not sure.
But I do think it's important that there's also tournaments were the top foreigners actually get to try their level with the best of the Koreans. I think they went abit too far with the region lock and more tournament for both should exist.
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On February 02 2016 02:06 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 02:03 Penev wrote:On February 02 2016 01:57 y0su wrote:
I couldn't get past groups being mutually exclusive...
I enjoy watching the highest level competition where each player lives in a team-house and has had a week (or more) to prepare and practice amazing crisp builds. I love seeing coaches decide who the ace player will be and to see the perfect snipe build - or blunder where they guess the opponent's ace wrong. I want to see builds and micro that will blow my mind. That is STARCRAFT at it's finest.
But I enjoy more than that. I love competition at almost every level. I think the game is awesome at my poor level. I actually got into casting mid-master level players practice against each other because I wanted an excuse to be in the game. I used to watch 4-6 personal streams at a time. It didn't matter what race or skill.
As someone that's always been very passionate about my heritage (half Finnish) I cheer for every Finn. I don't care what tournament. I've attended several local LANs to cast the 200€ tournaments. Not because the 50-200 viewers were going to make me famous (they haven't) but because I FUCKING LOVE STARCRAFT.
So... which group do I belong to before I continue reading? Neither, both, whatever. That's not the point. Continue reading. I should have probably phrased it better. New phrasing: the extreme versions of both categories are mutually exclusive!
fair enough - and after reading I'd put myself in the group that thinks most events have gotten far too casual AND hsc has gotten too serious. + Show Spoiler +Both types have given up what makes them good in order to try to placate both groups. + Show Spoiler +I swear I'm not trying to be difficult.
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Up to 500 000 players
A few hundred players worldwide that try to live from playing professionally
50-100 players (mostly Koreans) that may have a slim chance to qualify for Code S if they tried
32 players in Code S
At most 8 players that could be called favorites to win Code S
2 finalists
1 champion
Choose whoever you want to watch, but don't tell people they are wrong, or not true fans or whatever if they choose a different quantile than you did.
At the end of the day we are still all here to watch the games, whether we watch it only to see the champions, or whether we watch it only to see our personal favorites.
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Thanks for the topic and the article. One comment from me for the perspective.
I consider myself to be the casual, fun oriented spectator. I enjoy flashy production, funny interviews and commentary. I am no expert in highest level play (at least not in LotV). BUT.
I like tennis. I like to watch Wimbledon. I do not like to watch some local tournament with players ranked on 1300 -1700 place in the world. I just value my time so that it is not worth spectating the players 1300-1700, even when they are from my region and their play might be fun.
I really like watching SC2. With the flashy production, interviews, stories behind each win and loss. I just value my time too much to watch the players on the 50-100 place in the world. I am just not interested. There is no point for me to watch the "local heroes". I want to watch the flashy production, interviews and stories WITH THE TOP PLAYERS IN THE WORLD!!!
At the end I turned on the Leipzig DreamHack, I liked the interviews, casting ... But I was not at all interested in the games. I had it just as a radio, was listening to it and doing my stuff ... Whenever a game started, I stopped watching. Worthless. I just watched lated from VOD the first and second game of uThermal against Showtime, as it had something interesting in it.
And the current WCS is a FUCKING INJUSTICE, which makes me to stop cheering for any of the "local heroes" in general. Now, I seriously dislike all the players, who expressed publicly on Twitter or here on TL their support of the new WCS format. Bastards!
And I believe, that even the other "casual audience" will value their time to be more worth than spectating players 50-100 with this injustice in place.
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On February 02 2016 00:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:31 Gwavajuice wrote: For the sake of this argument, consider the two mutually exclusive. Very simplistic way of seeing things, and an already biased way of describing people's opinion about the WCS system. I don't think you can get anything relevant from this starting point. Thinking that the opinion people have about WCS is just about this artificial "fun vs high skill" categorization is a cliche and can only lead to a cliche conclusion. Now, don’t take all this as me shoving my opinions down your throat - I'm not trying to and I apologize if you feel that way. I’ve been vocal about not liking WCS in its current format, and most of you who know me will know quite clearly that I’m part of the category that enjoys high level play more than anything else. And bam! Your biased starting point end up in a biased conclusion. You miss that the whole point of WCS region lock could be to develop the skill of foreigners and to end up with an even higher level of play worldwide. You locked into your "foreigner = funny low skill guys vs Koreans = superior skilled players which can only be appreciated by people like me". Reallisticly, the core of your opinion may just be conservatism and lack of long term view, and not the "love of high level play" (that, quite franckly, everybody has) Don't go for simplistic categorization, they always end up being wrong. Above all, don't think other's opinion is different that yours because they're not educated enough in elite sc2 play. You seem to have completely missed the message of the article because you got hung up on something I said in the introduction. That's quite ironic considering it's exactly what you're accusing me of. What you quoted is not my conclusion. My conclusion is that there needs to be compromise to accommodate as many in the community as possible and not drive them out. If that's what you call black and white, sure? Can't say I agree with you though.
I don't call it black and white, I call it simplisitc, irrelevant and condescending.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 02 2016 02:38 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2016 00:31 Gwavajuice wrote: For the sake of this argument, consider the two mutually exclusive. Very simplistic way of seeing things, and an already biased way of describing people's opinion about the WCS system. I don't think you can get anything relevant from this starting point. Thinking that the opinion people have about WCS is just about this artificial "fun vs high skill" categorization is a cliche and can only lead to a cliche conclusion. Now, don’t take all this as me shoving my opinions down your throat - I'm not trying to and I apologize if you feel that way. I’ve been vocal about not liking WCS in its current format, and most of you who know me will know quite clearly that I’m part of the category that enjoys high level play more than anything else. And bam! Your biased starting point end up in a biased conclusion. You miss that the whole point of WCS region lock could be to develop the skill of foreigners and to end up with an even higher level of play worldwide. You locked into your "foreigner = funny low skill guys vs Koreans = superior skilled players which can only be appreciated by people like me". Reallisticly, the core of your opinion may just be conservatism and lack of long term view, and not the "love of high level play" (that, quite franckly, everybody has) Don't go for simplistic categorization, they always end up being wrong. Above all, don't think other's opinion is different that yours because they're not educated enough in elite sc2 play. You seem to have completely missed the message of the article because you got hung up on something I said in the introduction. That's quite ironic considering it's exactly what you're accusing me of. What you quoted is not my conclusion. My conclusion is that there needs to be compromise to accommodate as many in the community as possible and not drive them out. If that's what you call black and white, sure? Can't say I agree with you though. I don't call it black and white, I call it simplisitc, irrelevant and condescending.
Oh well.
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Hit the nail on the head, well articulated article.
I find myself always staying up late for Korean tournies, and for foreign ones I would always only watch games with at least one Korean in it.
I probed myself with some serious introspection, and I honestly have nothing against foreigners, and rather just want to watch the best games.
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Nice article. You don't need all the apologizing for hurting people's feelings though. If you make enemies it just shows you stand for something.
I think the casters should study some famous sports commentators.
If you watch the world cup, there are long periods when they just say the name of the guy that receives the ball. They don't need to talk about game of thrones or tell jokes or other random stuff about their lives that nobody cares about but an audience that should rather be watching a reality show.
I would really love to see more of that in e-sports too.
And also, countless times from every single actual sc2 caster, they just don't have a clue about the match history of the players in the match they comment, which in turns results in the garbage gap-filling speech they serve us all the time.
I would be way more one sided than OP on the division of commentary between "fun" and "info". It should ONLY be info, like in professional sport. This should be football commentary level, not WWE commentary level.
Not a single viewer cares about the casters life or their jokes or memes on stream, they turn in to watch SC2. If they wanted to have a laugh they would watch a humorist show instead, there are plenty of those and they are many times better at the job.
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On February 02 2016 01:32 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:41 Gemini_19 wrote:On February 02 2016 00:31 Gwavajuice wrote:
You miss that the whole point of WCS region lock could be to develop the skill of foreigners and to end up with an even higher level of play worldwide.
How does keeping the foreigners from playing against the best end up making them higher level players? It doesn't. Region locking improving foreign play is a myth, anyone that has followed the scene in any kind of capacity knows this. The gap between top foreign players and korean players was at its closest during a time when there was absolutely NO region locking whatsoever. The gap has only grown wider over time. Region locking has nothing to do with improving foreign play. It exists because there was a portion of the community that simply hated seeing an Asian man win everything. That's literally what it comes down to.
Without region locking there is little to no incentive for a foreign player to stay or go pro. How does less pro players mean higher skill?
The wide skill gap caused the region locking not the other way around.
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There should be (and are) tiers of tournaments for people to play in.
Also, why do we need foreign players? If all the best players are Korean?
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I think this is exactly why the Artosis/Tasteless Castercombo is as much appreciated as it is by so many viewers. Artosis serves the harc-core viewer, Tasteless serves the casual-oriented viewer. But obviously it gets more problematic in regards to balance discussion or discussion in general. Also it shows how difficult it is to make a Starcraft we can all enjoy. If Blizzard aims only for perfect balance it might not be "flashy" enough for the casual gamer. At the same time a game that lacks balance or includes "flashy" features that are bad for deciding who is the better player is a pain in the ass for the pro gamers and the hardcore viewers. Blizzard has to find a good middleground that can be accepted my anyone. And thats a difficult task.
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OMG I actually agree with the TL writer
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EPT
