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On February 02 2016 00:42 Mozdk wrote:
About that game 5 of TLO and Snute.
When I saw it I really liked it. But I saw it more as a joke. As a caricature of fake hyped casters. Am I the only one who got that impression?
In generel I like analytic casts. But once in a while, the hype cast can be fun. If what Nate and Kaelaris did that game was standard, I would watch with sound off for sure. It would annoy me in the long run.
It was joke fake hype, which was really frickin annoying, especially in an actually hype game.
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People enjoy SC2 for a lot of different reasons. To try and lump them all together into two polarizing groups like this is naive at best. This isn't an "us vs them" issue and treating it as such is only going to sow division among all community members.
That said, we've had 7 years of things the way they were, yet the numbers aren't going to lie. Players have had less and less interest in watching Starcraft 2 as an eSport. Blizzard has recognized that something needs to change if they hope to sustain SC2 as a relevant fixture in eSports from the perspective of players and spectators. They have also recognized that diversity is something that SC2 has been lacking, as well as something that people have long been asking for.
Long term, stirring the pot like this can only be a good thing for the future of Starcraft 2 fans across the board.
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On February 02 2016 00:41 Gemini_19 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:31 Gwavajuice wrote:
You miss that the whole point of WCS region lock could be to develop the skill of foreigners and to end up with an even higher level of play worldwide.
How does keeping the foreigners from playing against the best end up making them higher level players?
How do few tournament losses bring foreigners closer to the level Koreans represent? I doubt that tournament games have as much of an impact on player level than tons of stressless practice games.
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This was the most ridiculous cast I ever watched. There is obviously acting in it, and this screaming for 5min over irrelevant shit. This should not be tolerated. If you want a community to sustain you need to keep high standard.
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On February 02 2016 00:46 RKC wrote:
Yes, you can be both a casual and hard-core fan. But ultimately, one type is stronger in you than the other. And so the dichotomy, even though not strictly mutually exclusive, is real and matters for the future of SC2.
This is the key part. The traits of each category are not exclusive (I like fun and bizarre games and I also like clinic execution of builds), but what puts a person in on category or the other is which of these traits are more important or enjoyed most for said person.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 02 2016 00:50 iFU.pauline wrote:
This was the most ridiculous cast I ever watched. There is obviously acting in it, and this screaming for 5min over irrelevant shit. This should not be tolerated. If you want a community to sustain you need to keep high standard.
That's a very extreme opinion, but it does somewhat prove my point.
Some people think like you, in a lot of ways I am like that as well. But there are a lot of others who aren't, and that's fine. I can't blame them for their opinion. Still, the fact that both these tendencies exist in the community is something that's been evident time and time again, and needs to be kept in mind imo.
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Had a much longer post, but our local internet gets demolished, err upgraded these weeks. Some thoughts:
This is at best only half the story and lacks shades of grey (couldn't resist - sorry). Virtually every viewer is as well former player, casual player or hardcore player. And large parts of the community seem to have a very hard time understanding the difference. If you watch code S, the game gets designed for you, only if you play it, it gets also balanced for you.
This is not necessarily important for content producers such as GSL or Dreamhack, but it adds a very nasty layer of difficulty for Blizzard when designing, balancing, patching the game. And very much when trying to monetize it.
Mediocre local heroes, no matter how colorful they are, contributing to the long term health of the product seems a questionable premise. Idra ragequitting or Naniwa being Naniwa may create headlines, the people coming back to see more of it are however not an audience you can rely on. But then the past success of some of these players (streaming, fan clubs) may very well suggest I have no clue what I'm talking about.
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On February 02 2016 00:52 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:50 iFU.pauline wrote:
This was the most ridiculous cast I ever watched. There is obviously acting in it, and this screaming for 5min over irrelevant shit. This should not be tolerated. If you want a community to sustain you need to keep high standard. That's a very extreme opinion, but it does somewhat prove my point. Some people think like you, in a lot of ways I am like that as well. But there are a lot of others who aren't, and that's fine. I can't blame them for their opinion. Still, the fact that both these tendencies exist in the community is something that's been evident time and time again, and needs to be kept in mind imo.
Honestly, though, I think the point is that it's not so much casual v. hardcore as hardcore v. extremely hardcore. To use an American political example: Instead of fans being split into Democrats and Republicans, they're all Republicans, but some are moderate and some are Trump supporters.
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I don't know man, this WCS system is somewhat bad for the Koreans.
And I don't see how not playing with Koreans somehow improves your skills.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 02 2016 00:55 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:52 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 02 2016 00:50 iFU.pauline wrote:
This was the most ridiculous cast I ever watched. There is obviously acting in it, and this screaming for 5min over irrelevant shit. This should not be tolerated. If you want a community to sustain you need to keep high standard. That's a very extreme opinion, but it does somewhat prove my point. Some people think like you, in a lot of ways I am like that as well. But there are a lot of others who aren't, and that's fine. I can't blame them for their opinion. Still, the fact that both these tendencies exist in the community is something that's been evident time and time again, and needs to be kept in mind imo. Honestly, though, I think the point is that it's not so much casual v. hardcore as hardcore v. extremely hardcore. To use an American political example: Instead of fans being split into Democrats and Republicans, they're all Republicans, but some are moderate and some are Trump supporters.
Yeah, I'm not saying everyone has to fit into these categories 100%. That would be silly. I'm saying these are two general tendencies I've noticed. They're just there to draw rough images and you can never be both at the same time. Aspects from each, sure. I enjoyed HSC just as much as the next guy - because it always knew what it was. It was a great alternative to "hardcore" competition. What I don't really enjoy is something promoted as the most "professional" tournament in SC2 that is then held like almost a crossover of HSC and GSL. That doesn't fit the description and isn't genuine.
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On February 02 2016 00:58 qingbo wrote:
I don't know man, this WCS system is somewhat bad for the Koreans.
And I don't see how not playing with Koreans somehow improves your skills.
Can you tell me how tournament games contribute to overall level of the player? On what are you basing this opinion? I thought that players raise their skill by practicing, is it not true? And I don't see how tournament appearances of Koreans that practice in their own environment is beneficial to foreign players. Maybe the skill is transferred through shaking hands after lost game?
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Nate and Kaelaris were joking in this cast.
Anyway, nice article DLO. Of course people can't be labelled to (all) be in one of these two groups (and you're obviously not saying that) but these movements are discernable within the community and it can be helpful for organizations to be (more) aware of it and use this model, if you will, for future shows.
As a somewhat more to the highest possible level of competition leaning guy I would be satisfied with the current system if there were more tournaments that have Koreans competing in them.
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On February 02 2016 00:49 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:41 Gemini_19 wrote:On February 02 2016 00:31 Gwavajuice wrote:
You miss that the whole point of WCS region lock could be to develop the skill of foreigners and to end up with an even higher level of play worldwide.
How does keeping the foreigners from playing against the best end up making them higher level players? How do few tournament losses bring foreigners closer to the level Koreans represent? I doubt that tournament games have as much of an impact on player level than tons of stressless practice games.
It allows them to test what they've found to work in practice. Does it actually beat the best of the best, or does it need revising? If you're just constantly playing vs worse people and getting away with doing X thing, and X ends up being easily beaten by a Korean, then they'll just be set up for failure in the long run because they have no way of knowing if what they're doing is actually good enough to beat the best.
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On February 02 2016 00:50 Silvana wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:46 RKC wrote:
Yes, you can be both a casual and hard-core fan. But ultimately, one type is stronger in you than the other. And so the dichotomy, even though not strictly mutually exclusive, is real and matters for the future of SC2. This is the key part. The traits of each category are not exclusive (I like fun and bizarre games and I also like clinic execution of builds), but what puts a person in on category or the other is which of these traits are more important or enjoyed most for said person.
DLO is simply defining two categories to help steer the discussion. I don't know why some people are up in arms. Categories are useful for serious discussion on any issue. Conservatives vs Democrats. Capitalism vs Socialism. And so on. Sure, there are always middle-ground positions with a mix of both (for instance, I can be socially liberal but economically conservative). Sure, there are fifty shades of grey between black and white. But that don't mean there aren't people who sit at far sides of the extremes and pulling hard towards their own direction.
Ideally, everyone should steer to the centre. I believe this is what DLO is suggesting we do. Before the gap widens and tears the entire community apart.
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On February 02 2016 00:41 Gemini_19 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:31 Gwavajuice wrote:
You miss that the whole point of WCS region lock could be to develop the skill of foreigners and to end up with an even higher level of play worldwide.
How does keeping the foreigners from playing against the best end up making them higher level players?
Ah ah...That's exactly what I Thought.
In this excellent documentary made by Khaldor about SC2 Korean pro scene, koreans say foreign players have a lot to learn from korean players (about the fact foreign players gone to korea for practice).
www.youtube.com
That is the same idea about open WCS tournaments for korean players. They are stronger, indeed ! But sincerely I think foreign players became better when they play vs korean. Maybe not in every single tournament, but a few.
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8751 Posts
Just following the example of sports media in the US, that WCS cast is the kind of vibe you'd get from a radio show or podcast the day after, or from the live call of local radio guys or whatever. For the main standard live call of the game, they would not go with something so polarizing.
I think that the producers of SC2 broadcasts are eager to find anything that will pull more people in and hook them. When you do something like that, you see a ton of extremely positive feedback and evidence that many people got hooked. But how many did you repel? And how many of the people that you "hooked" were already fans who just enjoyed this broadcast more than usual? Is the call of the game a variable that you want to be tweaking that much?
I think the goal should be finding the atmosphere that best suits SC2. American football and soccer and tennis and golf have all settled on different styles of calling the game. There is far less variety between all the announcers calling the same sport as there is variety between different sports. SC2, however, has a ton of variety within itself. I think the WCS producers need to take a good look at all the different ways our great variety of announcers, commentators and analysts have called the games and decide on the best style. And all the guys calling the games for the main live broadcasts of the major tournaments need to homogenize to that style. If they don't want to do that, or can't, then they can make a career in some other corner of the scene, like with a podcast or with their own alternate casts of the games or streaming or whatever.
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On February 02 2016 00:31 Gwavajuice wrote:Very simplistic way of seeing things, and an already biased way of describing people's opinion about the WCS system. I don't think you can get anything relevant from this starting point. Thinking that the opinion people have about WCS is just about this artificial "fun vs high skill" categorization is a cliche and can only lead to a cliche conclusion. Show nested quote +Now, don’t take all this as me shoving my opinions down your throat - I'm not trying to and I apologize if you feel that way. I’ve been vocal about not liking WCS in its current format, and most of you who know me will know quite clearly that I’m part of the category that enjoys high level play more than anything else. And bam! Your biased starting point end up in a biased conclusion. You miss that the whole point of WCS region lock could be to develop the skill of foreigners and to end up with an even higher level of play worldwide.
This sentence is repeated over and over without any evidence. If foreigners were already getting thrashed by koreans, how will region lock help RAISE the skill of foreigners? Foreigner vs foreigner competition does not lead to foreigners competing with koreans. Foreigners are stuck in 5th grade math because when they venture into 6th grade math they get thrashed. You're saying that foreigners should remain in 5th grade math and then one day they will know 6th grade math. That's not how you grow and develop. Stephano has made the leap. You go in and you either adapt or you get out. Competitors are expected to make the leap.
Koreans playing in their practice houses are expected to put in their very best and given few opportunities to shine (and so it better count). That leads to growth and innovation. Compare that to foreigners who coast by and stagnate. Region locking will only perpetuate stagnation and eventually lead to decline in skill as the bar for what constitutes top foreigner drops.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 02 2016 01:10 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:50 Silvana wrote:On February 02 2016 00:46 RKC wrote:
Yes, you can be both a casual and hard-core fan. But ultimately, one type is stronger in you than the other. And so the dichotomy, even though not strictly mutually exclusive, is real and matters for the future of SC2. This is the key part. The traits of each category are not exclusive (I like fun and bizarre games and I also like clinic execution of builds), but what puts a person in on category or the other is which of these traits are more important or enjoyed most for said person. DLO is simply defining two categories to help steer the discussion. I don't know why some people are up in arms. Categories are useful for serious discussion on any issue. Conservatives vs Democrats. Capitalism vs Socialism. And so on. Sure, there are always middle-ground positions with a mix of both (for instance, I can be socially liberal but economically conservative). Sure, there are fifty shades of grey between black and white. But that don't mean there aren't people who sit at far sides of the extremes and pulling hard towards their own direction. Ideally, everyone should steer to the centre. I believe this is what DLO is suggesting we do. Before the gap widens and tears the entire community apart.
Sort of. I'm saying that there's room for more than one preference in the community and it would be healthy to stop fighting among ourselves when really nobody's wrong in what they like - they just like what they like.
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I don't agree with the distinction being made here between casual and competitive. I think there's another divide here because the professional sports leagues in Europe, Asia and America operate in different ways.
In the US, casual fans tune in when there's a dominant team playing. It's the people who follow a local team even when they're terrible that are considered the hardcore fans. You could easily see it in the games. When a local team is terrible, the stands are empty. Casual fans just don't show up. When a great team is visiting, more fans are in the stands to watch that great team. And that great team will even receive more cheers than the terrible local team. I think European fans just have a more local mentality while American fans are more inclined to watch the best regardless of nationality. In the US, the casual fan is synonymous with the bandwagon fan.
The focus of the foreigner scene is just wrong. Too much of the focus is not on SC2. People watch streamers to see them rage, do stupid antics and just act immaturely. People watch to see the casters do stand up comedy and watch the players say silly things in interviews. I see some say that casual fans can't tell the difference between foreigner play and Korean play if the fans don't see the players. Well, you can replace SC2 with rock-paper-scissors on the foreign scene and people won't notice the difference. It's all the sideshow surrounding the game that fans are paying attention to.
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On February 02 2016 01:08 Gemini_19 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:49 aQuaSC wrote:On February 02 2016 00:41 Gemini_19 wrote:On February 02 2016 00:31 Gwavajuice wrote:
You miss that the whole point of WCS region lock could be to develop the skill of foreigners and to end up with an even higher level of play worldwide.
How does keeping the foreigners from playing against the best end up making them higher level players? How do few tournament losses bring foreigners closer to the level Koreans represent? I doubt that tournament games have as much of an impact on player level than tons of stressless practice games. It allows them to test what they've found to work in practice. Does it actually beat the best of the best, or does it need revising? If you're just constantly playing vs worse people and getting away with doing X thing, and X ends up being easily beaten by a Korean, then they'll just be set up for failure in the long run because they have no way of knowing if what they're doing is actually good enough to beat the best.
While I agree with your point of view, this opinion that was going around that claims playing against Koreans in a tournament is some hardcore trial, I don't think that players constantly being faced with such trials end up well for the scene longevity. I see it as a reason why so many foreign teams jumped ship. Among others, of course.
I'm all for region-lock, I'm even more for truly global events along local scenes developing and raising the interest in the game once again. While the lock seems really hard, I agree with it's premise. There has to be an incentive to keep playing. Certainly not constant trials by fire.
EDIT: foreign scene is pretty much exactly what pitied Korean B teamers look like, before neither of those got true opportunities and incentives, and there is a massive outrage that one group got them now, the other did not. I wonder how much of KeSPA's decision was in all that, I don't believe all of it was enforced by Blizzard
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EPT
