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On February 02 2016 01:14 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 01:10 RKC wrote:On February 02 2016 00:50 Silvana wrote:On February 02 2016 00:46 RKC wrote:
Yes, you can be both a casual and hard-core fan. But ultimately, one type is stronger in you than the other. And so the dichotomy, even though not strictly mutually exclusive, is real and matters for the future of SC2. This is the key part. The traits of each category are not exclusive (I like fun and bizarre games and I also like clinic execution of builds), but what puts a person in on category or the other is which of these traits are more important or enjoyed most for said person. DLO is simply defining two categories to help steer the discussion. I don't know why some people are up in arms. Categories are useful for serious discussion on any issue. Conservatives vs Democrats. Capitalism vs Socialism. And so on. Sure, there are always middle-ground positions with a mix of both (for instance, I can be socially liberal but economically conservative). Sure, there are fifty shades of grey between black and white. But that don't mean there aren't people who sit at far sides of the extremes and pulling hard towards their own direction. Ideally, everyone should steer to the centre. I believe this is what DLO is suggesting we do. Before the gap widens and tears the entire community apart. Sort of. I'm saying that there's room for more than one preference in the community and it would be healthy to stop fighting among ourselves when really nobody's wrong in what they like - they just like what they like.
My fear is that for SC2 to survive, it needs to pick a niche side. Super serious like tennis. Or wacky fun like poker.
But maybe it doesn't. It can stay at the centre, and swing both ways. Just like football. Some pundit shows are serious, others are wacky fun. Some commentators are more professional (Europeans), others are super emo (South Americans). One sport, all kinds of shades and flavours. We can have GSL, and also HSC.
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United States33360 Posts
I think it's pretty clear that Western organizations and casters have come down on the casual side of things, and for good reason. At the end of the day, modern esports is more business than competition.
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I feel like I'm on both ends of the spectrum. When I watch streams of tournaments and such, I watch with an upbeat and optimistic attitude. I'm having fun and enjoy watching some of my favorite players and other players play and listen to the casting. When it's all done and said, I go back and watch the VODs, with or without commentary, but make my own analysis of the game and interpret what was going on.
I think when casters are casting, their emotions come into play, which brings out their inner nerd. I love the excitement that they can bring over a "dead game" because in the end, if you're watching, you have some semblance of love towards the game...or that's what I think.
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On February 02 2016 00:41 Gemini_19 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:31 Gwavajuice wrote:
You miss that the whole point of WCS region lock could be to develop the skill of foreigners and to end up with an even higher level of play worldwide.
How does keeping the foreigners from playing against the best end up making them higher level players?
It doesn't. Region locking improving foreign play is a myth, anyone that has followed the scene in any kind of capacity knows this. The gap between top foreign players and korean players was at its closest during a time when there was absolutely NO region locking whatsoever. The gap has only grown wider over time.
Region locking has nothing to do with improving foreign play. It exists because there was a portion of the community that simply hated seeing an Asian man win everything. That's literally what it comes down to.
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On February 02 2016 01:32 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:41 Gemini_19 wrote:On February 02 2016 00:31 Gwavajuice wrote:
You miss that the whole point of WCS region lock could be to develop the skill of foreigners and to end up with an even higher level of play worldwide.
How does keeping the foreigners from playing against the best end up making them higher level players? It doesn't. Region locking improving foreign play is a myth, anyone that has followed the scene in any kind of capacity knows this. The gap between top foreign players and korean players was at its closest during a time when there was absolutely NO region locking whatsoever. The gap has only grown wider over time. Region locking has nothing to do with improving foreign play. It exists because there was a portion of the community that simply hated seeing an Asian man win everything. That's literally what it comes down to.
Wow, harsh. So if I enjoy Koreans playing very much it makes me a koreanophile? I know where you're trying to go
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Interesting article, thanks for that.
I think with the RL article when hes not decrying 'social justice' or complaining about boring personalities he is arguing for an increase of fun or personality, thats what he thinks esports is. I have to say that I agree with him that esports should be more fun, should have more personality, I was never really a fan of Idra but I think he was good for the scene, people wanted to watch his games, to see his reactions. Idra leaving a won game after hallucinated colossus in a pique of rage is still one of my favourite moments in Sc2.
I think that there are certainly different types of viewers in Sc2, though I see it as a scale or continuum and at the end the two are in quite vocal opposition. I'd describe one end as one who wants to wants to watch entertaining or enjoyable Sc2 (similar to fun in your example) and the other people who want to watch the most high level or best Sc2 matches (competitive in your example).
One point I'd like to make though as whilst I'm closer to 'fun' than 'competitive' in your definition I don't think that means that I or other 'fun lovers' don't enjoy entertaining games more than I enjoy silly interviews etc. I'm not just after flashy graphics or a silly interview; I'd prefer to watch a competitive, interesting game than listen to a silly interview or hype cast. Its just that I find it easier to get behind someone (root for someone) that has personality or that I can identify with (local heroes etc).
Anyways, great well written post and I would certainly agree that the Sc2 community does have an identity crisis.
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The problem is that RTS has always been hardcore historically , but long time ago blizzard decided to convert it to casuals at all cost , as a result we now have casters , that not even the casuals enjoy.. as they are either players without any idea how to cast , or casters without any idea about the game .
There are many examples of failing games like this or genres.. when trying to innovate or change , sc2 as a game, is even harder now , so basically the game fails to deliver for both , hardcore and casuals , the game is way too hard for casuals , and too unforgiven for hardcores .
CSGO and LoL , succeded , because anyone can understand and play those game easily , yet both are very hard to master both of those games have very diferent casting tho , CSGO is much more profesional than the other games ,while LoL is basically focused on kids and "entertaining casting" like sc2 is trying to do .
conclusion SC2 is too hard , cannot be converted into a casual game where the money is :p
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come on people, cant we just actually get over all this. Weve had enough. the game is 20 yrs old. Iterations dont change the core concept of the game. Ive played it from the start and im kinda done, i browse this site daily, look at the headlines, not much to see here, click twitch, look at top streams, not much to see here or if there is im not really watching it. Its just had its time and im afraid its time is up, it will always be there and thats the end of it. We have to just face the current state of the competitive game market.
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I've already said enough on the changes, people know my thoughts and I don't back down from them. But I have no desire to get into an argument that will wind up with me or someone else getting angry and temp banned again. I'll simply watch what I consider to be the best games and not bother with the rest.
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On February 02 2016 01:25 Waxangel wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that Western organizations and casters have come down on the casual side of things, and for good reason. At the end of the day, modern esports is more business than competition.
Hey. To me when you were invited as an expert (I did not know you), you were the one who looked casual.
No offence, just stating what I felt and why it is nonsence to make a distinction between casual and hardcore.
The casual viewer (probably not even player) will tend to bandwagon and watch what is the best out there, aka korean league.
Just check on reddit page a guy asked today the rules of starcraft, because he catched proleague and found it entertaining even not knowing what was going on.
He is casual. He watches highest level of play. And I don't think he would have tuned for Bly vs Elazer.
All of this categorization is implicitely false imo.
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Article of the year already 
Nicely written, respectful, insightful article - thank you
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I've watched RTS religiously for ~15 years and I'm casual <.<
As soon as you're a fan of somebody it's because something stands out in that guy, ranging from stylistic playstyle, a good story, personality, playing your race, showing emotion. No one actually looks at statistics of winrates and then goes THAT is my favourite player..
The hype cast, I only facepalmed a little, because they were joking about it. The game was actually hype and deserved to be hyped up. If you're truly a hardcore Starcraft fan, you probably know even more than the casters, when it's about your race, with the exception of a few casters. And so that should make you not interested in them analyzing the game. Instead what I enjoy is a funny cast, with ACTUAL hype, something that can lift me up, as opposed to bring me down. So many times there has been boring ass casts where my excitement for the game, was not justified by the cast and I would've actually benefitted from not listening to it at all, in terms of getting pumped up. Often I listen into other language casts that I don't understand, because it brings more to the table. If you love Maynarde, or Tasteless, or even Kaelaris that doesn't make you casual..
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On February 02 2016 01:32 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 00:41 Gemini_19 wrote:On February 02 2016 00:31 Gwavajuice wrote:
You miss that the whole point of WCS region lock could be to develop the skill of foreigners and to end up with an even higher level of play worldwide.
How does keeping the foreigners from playing against the best end up making them higher level players? It doesn't. Region locking improving foreign play is a myth, anyone that has followed the scene in any kind of capacity knows this. The gap between top foreign players and korean players was at its closest during a time when there was absolutely NO region locking whatsoever. The gap has only grown wider over time. Region locking has nothing to do with improving foreign play. It exists because there was a portion of the community that simply hated seeing an Asian man win everything. That's literally what it comes down to.
What made koreans good when they started playing BW? Did they have a whole lot of superior rts players invade their country and steal their money/chances?
Would they have been able to build the infrastructure they have now? Korea basically "region locked" their scene due to the format and the requirement to live there as well (not 100% as we know, grrr, etc), but the end result is similar, no?
There ALWAYS has to be motivation first, if there is no motivation to get better you also won't get better.
WCS not being region locked did exactly that to 99.99999% of (potential) foreign progamers, it removed all the motivation.
I really don't think this is hard to understand. Obviously foreigners playing with foreigners only is worse practice than playing vs koreans, but you can get better in that scenario too, it just takes longer.
@topic: In theory you definitely should make the whole experience rather casual, otherwise you won't get the biggest following possible. It's pretty unfortunate that blizzard needed all these years to understand this though (and atm it's still not executed all that well, if you want to see how it is done properly: watch riot and the lcs)
Right now most people having ANY interest in sc2 are the hardcore people, we watch korean sc2, we don't care about the "casual" stuff all that much (that's obviously not true 100%, but you get the idea)
I am not entirely sure if we still have time to get some new casual viewers into watching sc2 (wcs), but the last dreamhack wasn't really all that well done to achieve it either imo.
Why? Because while being a wcs tournament it felt like every dreamhack before, there wasn't much production value for sc2 (no cool videos, not even the main stage for the most part, etc). This won't cut it, i hope the winter final will be a different kind of calibre, otherwise this won't go anywhere.
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So, we did Tasteless and Artosis to cast every tournament ever. Welcome back to 2010 :D
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On February 02 2016 01:35 Hoofit wrote:
Interesting article, thanks for that.
I think with the RL article when hes not decrying 'social justice' or complaining about boring personalities he is arguing for an increase of fun or personality, thats what he thinks esports is. I have to say that I agree with him that esports should be more fun, should have more personality, I was never really a fan of Idra but I think he was good for the scene, people wanted to watch his games, to see his reactions. Idra leaving a won game after hallucinated colossus in a pique of rage is still one of my favourite moments in Sc2.
I think that there are certainly different types of viewers in Sc2, though I see it as a scale or continuum and at the end the two are in quite vocal opposition. I'd describe one end as one who wants to wants to watch entertaining or enjoyable Sc2 (similar to fun in your example) and the other people who want to watch the most high level or best Sc2 matches (competitive in your example).
One point I'd like to make though as whilst I'm closer to 'fun' than 'competitive' in your definition I don't think that means that I or other 'fun lovers' don't enjoy entertaining games more than I enjoy silly interviews etc. I'm not just after flashy graphics or a silly interview; I'd prefer to watch a competitive, interesting game than listen to a silly interview or hype cast. Its just that I find it easier to get behind someone (root for someone) that has personality or that I can identify with (local heroes etc).
Anyways, great well written post and I would certainly agree that the Sc2 community does have an identity crisis.
*Colossi Voidrays 
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4713 Posts
I find it hilarious how people still believe the myth that isolating scenes will lead to strengthening each region. If that were the case the EU, NA and China regions would be equal to Korea, which isn't the case, since, baring the first worlds, Korea has won each and every time, they might even be getting progressively better as last year was the first with an all Korean final.
No, isolating the scenes is not the solution, what Blizzard actually needs to do is to promote the creation of team houses and focused practice, it needs to encourage teams to hire coaches, it needs to create the equivalent of a Proleague for EU and NA. Because to be frank, Korea has all the right elements to create the best players in the world, yes its true they have a culture of perfectionism and discipline that pushes them ever forward, but they also have team houses, with actual focused practice a regular team league to get them motivated and awesome coaching staff.
Until Blizzard stops trying to screw Korea and actually starts working to try and build up EU and NA, not throw welfare money at them, the regions will never grow in skill and the Koreans will always be better.
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I couldn't get past groups being mutually exclusive...
I enjoy watching the highest level competition where each player lives in a team-house and has had a week (or more) to prepare and practice amazing crisp builds. I love seeing coaches decide who the ace player will be and to see the perfect snipe build - or blunder where they guess the opponent's ace wrong. I want to see builds and micro that will blow my mind. That is STARCRAFT at it's finest.
But I enjoy more than that. I love competition at almost every level. I think the game is awesome at my poor level. I actually got into casting mid-master level players practice against each other because I wanted an excuse to be in the game. I used to watch 4-6 personal streams at a time. It didn't matter what race or skill.
As someone that's always been very passionate about my heritage (half Finnish) I cheer for every Finn. I don't care what tournament. I've attended several local LANs to cast the 200€ tournaments. Not because the 50-200 viewers were going to make me famous (they haven't) but because I FUCKING LOVE STARCRAFT.
So... which group do I belong to before I continue reading?
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I don't really believe region locking will help improve skill level for foreigners but at the same time I believe that foreigners will just give up eventually if koreans are allowed to compete freely. I would very much appreciate that if foreigners could rise up and compete in the free environment without giving up or retiring because they can not compete. The reality on the other hand doesn't seem to be that way. I think Blizzard realizes this too. The goal of Blizzard and SC2 fans is to sustain and help foster the growth of the scene. How do we achieve it though? Blizzard and many people seem to believe implicit or explicit that korean domination is an obstacle to the goal.
The argument about diversity comes into play. How do you force diversity without hurting koreans though? That's the hard part. Some people believe you simply don't. Some believe it's a necessary evil. There's no easy answer here.
The discussion about silly vs informative casters is for me not a hard decision to make. I believe that all casters should be well informed about the whole scene and the game at least to some extent. You could make jokes and have different styles of casting but you should be well informed before anything.
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Here is the thing with the hypecast, if you want brain dead yelling get Maynarde to cast, if you want actual material in your casting, get anyone else, and have them do their job.
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On February 02 2016 01:57 Destructicon wrote:
I find it hilarious how people still believe the myth that isolating scenes will lead to strengthening each region. If that were the case the EU, NA and China regions would be equal to Korea, which isn't the case, since, baring the first worlds, Korea has won each and every time, they might even be getting progressively better as last year was the first with an all Korean final.
No, isolating the scenes is not the solution, what Blizzard actually needs to do is to promote the creation of team houses and focused practice, it needs to encourage teams to hire coaches, it needs to create the equivalent of a Proleague for EU and NA. Because to be frank, Korea has all the right elements to create the best players in the world, yes its true they have a culture of perfectionism and discipline that pushes them ever forward, but they also have team houses, with actual focused practice a regular team league to get them motivated and awesome coaching staff.
Until Blizzard stops trying to screw Korea and actually starts working to try and build up EU and NA, not throw welfare money at them, the regions will never grow in skill and the Koreans will always be better.
I think you stay focused only on foreigners catching up in term of skills.
What Blizzard does is increasing the incentitives for foreign players to go pro. For tournament organisers to consider starcraft something marketable and bringing viewers.
Everything is not about pure skill.
Eventually with a EU proleague, in a unique city, with team houses and coaches. Yes foreigners could catch up. But it is very unlikely to happen.
Just look at League of Legends. There is no need to mix regions. It creaters own ecosystem and a shit ton of hype when regions meet few times a year.
And I would add that it is the exact same thing in real sport.
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EPT
