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just to give my own random whiny irrelevant opinion on this matter:
when i followed sc2 more closely (very closely. like way too closely, spending about as much time on it as i did on university closely), i was very engaged in the scene, the characters, storylines, all that stuff. of course i was also interested in gameplay, but it felt less exciting simply because i was watching so much of it that i kept seeing the same thing over and over again so many times that it was just too repetitive to stay fresh. however, the sc2 community had (and probably still has) so many great and exciting people, whether it be players (both Korean and foreign), casters, etc., and storylines that it was still very engaging and interesting to follow the scene. however, to become that emotionally involved in it, i had to spend a lot of time to really engage with all these characters and stuff.
over the last two years or so, i have been following sc2 less and less, to the point where i have literally only played singleplayer in LotV so far. my main race is/was Terran, and i learnt yesterday watching Proleague that there is an upgrade for the Hurricane. my point is that nowadays, my only real motivation for watching sc2 is the actual gameplay, because it is fresh and exciting and interesting. i don't really know anything about how players are doing, who won what tournament (hell i don't even realise tournaments are happening most of the time), or whatever else is going on in the community, precisely because acquiring the knowledge about all of this takes a lot of time that i am not willing to invest in sc2 currently.
Therefore, you would probably want to stick me in the 'casual' category cause i don't spend much time on sc2, but the fact of the matter is that i only watch it for gameplay, and i only watch Korean leagues, and this is admittedly partially because i'm more likely to actually get the chance to watch them, but it is mostly because i know i'll see the game being played at the highest possible level. if i didn't have this past as a hardcore follower, i would actually know even less about the characters (because finding out Tasteless has a big beard now does put a smile on my face), and i would care even less about what you characterise to be the 'casual' community.
/rant towards a fellow Austrian
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On February 03 2016 07:22 DSK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2016 01:57 Destructicon wrote:
I find it hilarious how people still believe the myth that isolating scenes will lead to strengthening each region. If that were the case the EU, NA and China regions would be equal to Korea, which isn't the case, since, baring the first worlds, Korea has won each and every time, they might even be getting progressively better as last year was the first with an all Korean final.
No, isolating the scenes is not the solution, what Blizzard actually needs to do is to promote the creation of team houses and focused practice, it needs to encourage teams to hire coaches, it needs to create the equivalent of a Proleague for EU and NA. Because to be frank, Korea has all the right elements to create the best players in the world, yes its true they have a culture of perfectionism and discipline that pushes them ever forward, but they also have team houses, with actual focused practice a regular team league to get them motivated and awesome coaching staff.
Until Blizzard stops trying to screw Korea and actually starts working to try and build up EU and NA, not throw welfare money at them, the regions will never grow in skill and the Koreans will always be better. I agree with Destruction. I think the whole Korean scene is something the Foreign scene should try to emulate. I haven't followed Brood War, but I know thanks largely to the Lickpiddy and this very website that SKT1 is stoked in history - BoxeR and iloveoov played and coached for the team - iloveoov helped lead SKT1 to epic heights last year with the Proleague win and various standout performances of it's players. Here are the storylines, folks. SKT1 has a rivalry with KTRolster and has done since BW. Again, storylines, history, folklore even. The Korean productions also offer entertainment, such as "10 Questions", opportunities to see oldschool teams like SKT1, KTRolster play live, the GSL group selections/nominations (storylines!). We simply don't have that in Foreignland - and it makes sense considering it's effectively "The rest of the world, minus South Korea". However, a Blizz-sanctioned forum to enable this sort of thing would be a start. It seems like events such as Nation Wars III get people's blood flowing and then it stops. I for one was surprised and Elated for France when they beat Korea - imagine watching something similar to this in one big, distribued Proleague-esque event all year long. Amazing. Team houses and the infrastructure to support them needs to be in place in order to allow players to truly focus on improving their skills and capacity to play the game, coaches need to be employed to mentor and (as we've heard from iloveoov himself from his recent interview) find ways to attach other player's and what they are liable to do badly against race/match-up/build-wise. Salaries also need to be able to allow players to actually make a living by doing the above without worrying about financial problems. But I digress. I'm probably talking out of my ass anyway  
Well, I wasn't around either for BW but as far as I understand the history Blizzard hat nothing to do with the hole BW-boom in South Korea besides providing the game itself.
For some reason BW became incredible popular with massive TV coverage and thousands of attendees for the tournaments. That attracted Sponsors which put in the necessary money to build up the infrastructure which then in part carried over to SC2 and is probably the main reason why the Koreans dominate SC2 so much. But you can't do it the other way around, first you need the popularity and sponsor money, than you are able to build the infrastructure.
At the moment it seems to me most teams a in a big struggle to keep their SC2-divisions at all, a lot of them are closing or shrinking, so I am happy when they are able at all to provide the players with at least basic support. It's not very likely they will be able to invest more money for infrastructure. See for example here which is surprisingly not even community news:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/503440-property-roster-changes
Besides that you have to consider that “Foreignland” is much bigger as SK where all Teams are basically concentrated in Seoul.
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Is there any way of knowing what the distribution is for each group ? 50/50? How about a good old poll on front page ?
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On February 03 2016 07:39 Xamo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2016 06:17 boxerfred wrote:On February 03 2016 06:10 Xamo wrote:On February 03 2016 06:02 boxerfred wrote:
im done with sc2 due to various reasons. Can you elaborate? Is it related with the topic in discussion? Yes. It's basically three things. 1. WCS 2016 system, absolutely not liking it 2. Life matchfixing 3. Not having fun at playing the game. Although WCS is obviously worse than before, I think there are alternatives. SPL is so good... Life though... Shit. But for me the most important point would be nr 3. I hope you find something else you can be passionate about, it is not the end of the world.
I had high expectations of LotV and I don't like the game as it is now. You're correct, #3 is the worst, then #2, then #1 actually.
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"flashy production" made me think you were talking about good macro...
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I like watching all SC2, I watch all the korean and foreign leagues and tournaments I have time for. I enjoy both the fun casts and the "serious" casts, although of all the casters I think most of them have fun as well... I don't know how big of deal this is really. I think most of the big events do a pretty good job of mixing it up with there casters; Having some that are more casual and some that are more straight to the point. For instance hiring pro players as casters, like Snute and pigbaby..
Yes, your not going to make everyone happy every single match, everyones personal opinions on favorite casters n what not varies. Like you said, just got to fine that happy median. Tournaments that cater to more casual or "fun" viewers can obviously hire casters that cater more to their event and the larger tournaments that get a wide range of viewers can hire a larger variety of casters to appease more people.
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Honestly, I don't care about informative commentary, I care about informative OBSERVING. If I can see it, I will understand it.
What I can't stand is so-called "expert" analysis which is a) mediocre and/or self-explanatory and b) not great at casting in general/lacking in charisma.
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On February 05 2016 16:28 plogamer wrote:
Honestly, I don't care about informative commentary, I care about informative OBSERVING. If I can see it, I will understand it.
What I can't stand is so-called "expert" analysis which is a) mediocre and/or self-explanatory and b) not great at casting in general/lacking in charisma.
All 3 of those are SUPER subjective. How do you even define "informative observing"???
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It's funny how a lot of live threads from WCS or announcements like WCS Circuit Shanghai Announced draws a lot of negative comments along the lines of "Damn you to heck blizzard for bankrupting korea, I will never watch SC2 again!!oneoen!" whereas a thread like Code S Lineup complete has no comments not watching it because there are no foreigners present in the Korean tourneys.
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On February 06 2016 03:01 BaneRiders wrote:It's funny how a lot of live threads from WCS or announcements like WCS Circuit Shanghai Announced draws a lot of negative comments along the lines of "Damn you to heck blizzard for bankrupting korea, I will never watch SC2 again!!oneoen!" whereas a thread like Code S Lineup complete has no comments not watching it because there are no foreigners present in the Korean tourneys.
Its because the community is one of the biggest problems with SC2.
Too lazy to play well.
Too racist to root for koreans.
Too prideful to say either out loud.
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On February 04 2016 01:48 DiamondTear wrote:
"flashy production" made me think you were talking about good macro...
:D
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Honestly, I think the identity crisis is more due to the game itself than the community atm... The game itself is kind of having an identity crisis.
It's very hard to have a consistent identity in the community if the game itself is not consistent with either BW or past iterations of SC2.
Unlike earlier iterations of SC2, there simply aren't many new players who want to "learn" the game at this point. So the popularity of analytical commentary is obviously at debatably the lowest point in SC2's history.
Compounded with the issue of the professional player base not quite being in too strong of a position at the moment, and there are not really many players who inspire a wild fan base like some of the renowned players in the past did. So it doesn't quite cater to the "fun/casual" oriented community either.
Then we have the hardcore community, who themselves are not quite happy with SC2 either, which have a problem that has been years in the making. Beyond how hardcore players watch the game, when it comes to their expectations from the game, they usually have much higher standards than other players. They want things to be more hardcore, to be more skill based, to be "harder". This inherently does not play well with the other player types.
For the game to cater to the hardcore, it will then be less welcoming to new players, as well less satisfying for casual audiences. This led to a strong hardcore following early on (mainly the hardcore made it through WoL onward), but with discontent over the years, the hardcore player base has slowly became smaller and smaller, and with no influx of new players to replace older ones... In the end we have many of the players who are most passionate about the game, that are slowly going extinct, or in their discontent just end up back at BW.
It's not actually as simple as stating that the game simply "does not cater to any specific community right now". That statement only implies that it's not heavily invested in any single 1 type of community, but could reasonably appeal to any of them. But in reality, right now the game specifically pushes away members of all 3 communities. This is a much worse problem... StarCraft 2 is not a game that is currently designed to satisfy any particular community. Their current changes are focused on damage-control and trying to minimize the loss of players... But without actually attracting to any certain type of player to the community, the game itself has no identity, and the population of the community could do nothing but dwindle.
The future of SC2 is very short sighted. If SC2 is going to truly survive, we need long-term plans to change directions. Just look at the live streams on the right of this page, and you can see the problem for yourself... These days BW consistently has the higher portion of viewers (or a larger community) watching it at nearly any time you check. Things truly need to change for things to improve rather than continue declining, and these short-sighted patches, and PvE map packs, will not be enough to spark interest in the game. SC2 needs an identity that ANY form of community is looking for right now. New players, hardcore, casuals, long-time SC fans... all of those forms of communities time is better spent else where.
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I am only a viewer, but for me that sort of enthusiastic commentary never really did the trick. I don't like guys screaming and basically telling me what I can see anyways. I like the more analytical commentary. The featured video represents the worst case for me and I would immediately switch it off.
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On February 06 2016 03:15 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2016 03:01 BaneRiders wrote:It's funny how a lot of live threads from WCS or announcements like WCS Circuit Shanghai Announced draws a lot of negative comments along the lines of "Damn you to heck blizzard for bankrupting korea, I will never watch SC2 again!!oneoen!" whereas a thread like Code S Lineup complete has no comments not watching it because there are no foreigners present in the Korean tourneys. Its because the community is one of the biggest problems with SC2. Too lazy to play well. Too racist to root for koreans. Too prideful to say either out loud.
I rather think it is a part of this community that is acting very childish with this constant ranting, because they are not getting things the way they want (namely Koreans in the WCS circuit). So they do the internet equivalent of a kid throwing him/herself on the ground, screaming and kicking because the parents didn't buy them an ice cream. At least that is the way it comes across to me.
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On February 06 2016 06:44 Neric wrote:
I am only a viewer, but for me that sort of enthusiastic commentary never really did the trick. I don't like guys screaming and basically telling me what I can see anyways. I like the more analytical commentary. The featured video represents the worst case for me and I would immediately switch it off.
I feel like the best casters, or at least my personal favourite casters typically combined elements from both these stereotypical styles of commentary though. I haven't watched in a long long time so I'm not sure who are the best casters these days, but Artosis used to be able to bring the hype to a game when it deserved the hype, and also offer some analysis as well (although maybe not as good as a pro player).
Hearing the pros commentate at HSC was always a lot of fun too.
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I don't see how you can simultaneously claim to be a fan of competitive SC2 and at the same time be in favour of things that compromise the competitive nature of the game like region locking or inviting "funny" "personalities" that have no clue what they're doing over someone who knows the game but doesn't spout as many epic memes for the 12 year olds in chat.
I'm just going to say it: compared to other esports like CS:GO or LoL, SC2 is a joke. Not just smaller, less viewed, a complete joke.
Compare the production and commentary for a big CS:GO tournament to an SC2 one. In CS:GO you have very professional commentators that work well together and can be funny and entertaining while also giving detailed concise descriptions of what's going on, then you go to an analysis desk where they give very in depth analysis that really breaks everything down and lets even a noob understand what's going on.
In SC2 you get Kaelaris stuggling to construct a sentence while Nathanias talks about rip in pepperoni, then you cut to an analysis desk where some epic personality points to a screen and says "I think this part where he attacked and won the game was important, back to you boys lads banter".
I know this sounds like a cruel rant but I really care about SC2, at least I used to. Now all I see in the scene is an old boys club of "personalities" coasting by on name recognition, pretending that the below par foreigners they're casting are great because Koreans weren't allowed in, while spouting cringe worthy """""banter""""" that is mostly just repeating memes like a little kid who just found out about the internet.
Pretty much every big figure in the scene seems to give the impression that broadcasting high level competitive SC2 is at the absolute bottom of their list of priorities and it makes me so mad, because they are shaping the future of the scene, and they're leading it into an early grave.
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On February 03 2016 15:51 Douillos wrote:Is there any way of knowing what the distribution is for each group ? 50/50? How about a good old poll on front page ?
There are only two groups of people.
1. Those who play Protoss
2. Those who are wrong
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On February 08 2016 04:47 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2016 15:51 Douillos wrote:Is there any way of knowing what the distribution is for each group ? 50/50? How about a good old poll on front page ? There are only two groups of people. 1. Those who play Protoss 2. Those who are wrong
i was watching a popular North American Terran streamer who explained there are 3 kinds of maps.
Protoss favoured maps , Zerg favoured maps, and well-balanced maps.
by the game's very nature you'll have a splintered even fractured community. you have MOD-ders.... people who like to play MODs, people who like to build AI bots/scripts, campaign players who like to play single player on the hardest possible levels, Co-Op buddies who do nothing but move from game to game together and enjoy 2v2s in SC2,
and the list goes on and on.
there is no solution to this problem.. each of these individual communities alone can't sustain or justify ATVI investment in a game.
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I can only speak for myself but to me starcraft 2 got more and more frustrating to watch and play. Games where you (or the player you root for) are (is) ahead all game, getting a bigger and bigger advantage through good multitasking and many small engagements and then you (he) lose(s) because of a single ability or unit or the game is turned around completely within a second after building it up for such a long time.
However, contrary to my believe in the beta, LOTV seems to be less "volatile" then I initially feared.
Because its the building up tension and then collapsing within seconds that made it frustrating or not worth to watch it.
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SC2 has become more track and field. That was forced by hardcore SC2 community since the beginning. People want to watch players like Goody, while the hardcore coummunity hates Goody because his APM is low. Creativity and strategy has lost against training time and reaction abilities. Sure it is nice to see a Rubik's Cube solved in some seconds, but I don't need to watch a tournament with guys solving a Rubik's Cubes even they do some kind of battles.
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EPT
