EPTDavid Kim's Response on Community Feedback - Page 18
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crazedrat
272 Posts
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PPN
France248 Posts
On February 02 2016 12:47 crazedrat wrote: Well as far as Prion I like the 3rd gold, I actually do not think the map is that bad for protoss PvZ, .. they just need to play safe for the opening, Zerg ends up trapped once the golds mine out... it gets much harder to expand and move around the map, and protoss is booming at that point. On Central I think some low health destructible rocks at the natural 3rd so zerg cannot expand quicker than the other races. Have you ever actually tried to play PvZ on Prion and Central P? Not just watched I mean. Not sure you're playing the same kind of PvZ than the rest of the world. That or you're on drugs. Not sure. | ||
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kasapanos
Finland8 Posts
Brood war was an awesome game. It was a game where space control mattered. You could put a few tanks to cover a narrow route to a location to block access. This would be almost impenetrable. What the opponent would have had to do can be something like: 1. Find different route to flank the formation. 2. Attack the formation knowing the weakness (in this case, send air units to attack). 3. If also flanks are covered well you take control of the rest of the map, because the enemy invested a lot to defend that specific location and can't be that strong elsewhere -> take the initiative. 4. try to use some fancy spell to cover your attack moves. 5. force the enemy to move This resembles chess. There were multiple units (lurker, arbiter, reaver, defiler..) that had really strong location control. But they had evident weaknesses. High manacost, slow, up in the tech tree... So you could rush, flank, drop, avoid, outmacro, outmicro the units but not rush on to them. And oh dear the games in BW... And the maps. They were fun and diverse. Starcraft 2 on the other hand took a completely different path. Even with 200/200 all the tanks covering one narrow ledge, you can not block the protoss ground forces. As they just demolish you. But...YOU CAN LIFT THE TANK!! Who wants to lift a tank that is supposed to defend? It's the speed of the brain and not (only) the speed of the hands that should differ players. In SC2 Zerg had no way to really control any kind of terrain. It was some kind of weird hit and run game the TvZ. Protoss of course just a-moved always. Gateway was plain useless path to choose apart from rushing as they fell on tech rapidly and even big gate-army got demolished in seconds. Fuck I loved gateway on BW!!! It was the backbone of protoss!! Now it was some weird deathball-colossi-hit-and-run-cannon-defence-weird-mommaship-core-whaaaaatisthis?? I wanted to have the epic gateway-massing fights or sneaky carrier-stomps but not one OP-unit destroying everything. Sometimes I go back here to see what's happening. Now there's 18 people streaming BW and three streaming SC2. David Kim still defending his vision of the game and not listening what the people are asking for even after 5 years. Respect the players man!! Please make it truly BW 2.0. That's what we really want. We got enough of 1-unit games already. I dont want one fast tier-1 unit that I miss and all my workers are gone. I don't want to micro tanks! l want them to be able to create by-land-impenetrable defence and to really discover the wannabe-chess-master in me that finds a way to find the way around it. And I'm too old to micro each factory or limit selections BW-style and too comfortable to watch 800x600 2016. It might be that you want to pay ping-pong and I want to play chess. This is a matter of taste of course. The problem is that BW was in ways similar to chess. What if you would truly ask the community what they want? Peace. | ||
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crazedrat
272 Posts
On February 02 2016 17:46 PPN wrote: Have you ever actually tried to play PvZ on Prion and Central P? Not just watched I mean. Not sure you're playing the same kind of PvZ than the rest of the world. That or you're on drugs. Not sure. All of you whine too much. 2 base allins don't work ... taking the 3rd gold and defending it does work, that will get you into the midgame and you can start to pressure once you're maxed. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On February 02 2016 06:09 Penev wrote: Can't get much more constructive than this, thanks. You too Nony. This thread delivers, as they say Thank you! Awesome to see it appreciated. I like to think David Kim read it over his morning coffee (or after the morning coffee--you know; the shit-read). Because come on, a guy like Kim? Definitely has Google alerts on : D | ||
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ZerglingSoup
United States346 Posts
I play random and can only rank as high as a Top 3 Gold and that's if I practice alot. When I lose I know it is because I'm bad and I don't ever think to blame David Kim. I mostly watch Korean matches with my wife and maybe a beer in the evenings. Probably not many people like me read or flame-post on forums because we are pretty content and enjoy the game for what it is, and all the useless negativity in feedback threads usually makes us close the tab. There's a lot of things in this world to be upset about and there are surely lots of ways that Starcraft could be improved, but I would hope that most reasonable people could keep these as separate categories. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
This seems relevant | ||
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PPN
France248 Posts
On February 03 2016 00:25 crazedrat wrote: All of you whine too much. 2 base allins don't work ... taking the 3rd gold and defending it does work, that will get you into the midgame and you can start to pressure once you're maxed. What level are you playing at? In which world is a Zerg going to not take gold as natural or 3 hatch on Prion and Protoss won't have a say in it unless going all-in? Why would Zerg not prevent Protoss from taking 3rd as gold in a timely fashion if ever thanks to the extra income? I am not whining I just don't want maps that scream "hey you'd better kill zerg now or things will get out of hands", in fact I'd really really like to be wrong, but you sure talk big. If you are diamond or master, give me replays of you doing what you claim to do. | ||
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crazedrat
272 Posts
On February 03 2016 04:54 PPN wrote: What level are you playing at? In which world is a Zerg going to not take gold as natural or 3 hatch on Prion and Protoss won't have a say in it unless going all-in? Why would Zerg not prevent Protoss from taking 3rd as gold in a timely fashion if ever thanks to the extra income? I am not whining I just don't want maps that scream "hey you'd better kill zerg now or things will get out of hands", in fact I'd really really like to be wrong, but you sure talk big. If you are diamond or master, give me replays of you doing what you claim to do. You don't have to go kill the zerg. Actually thats the worst thing you can try to do. Just pressure and defend... They have a boost in the early midgame... you can hold on. The map gets better as the game goes long. Ok? | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
we’ve had so much success for the better of the game in the past year compared to previous years That's an... interesting assessment of SC2's trajectory, DK. Maybe hoping people don't remember what the game used to be? | ||
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Timelog
Netherlands57 Posts
On February 03 2016 18:02 iamcaustic wrote: That's an... interesting assessment of SC2's trajectory, DK. Maybe hoping people don't remember what the game used to be? You can say what you want, but the general consensus I see around all community platforms is that LotV is definitely better then HotS. Not perfect of course as it is still early in release, but certainly better. | ||
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EatingBomber
1017 Posts
On February 03 2016 18:30 Timelog wrote: You can say what you want, but the general consensus I see around all community platforms is that LotV is definitely better then HotS. Not perfect of course as it is still early in release, but certainly better. Wait for the novelties of the game to wear off, and then say that. I think it is too early to tell whether LotV is an improvement over HotS | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
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ZombieFrog
United States87 Posts
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IceBerrY
Germany220 Posts
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Alexcalibur1996
United States39 Posts
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PPN
France248 Posts
On February 03 2016 17:21 crazedrat wrote: You don't have to go kill the zerg. Actually thats the worst thing you can try to do. Just pressure and defend... They have a boost in the early midgame... you can hold on. The map gets better as the game goes long. Ok? So what you are telling me is to stay on 2 bases until I run out of mineral and take 3rd when Zerg controls the whole map? Yeah as I thought you have nothing to back up your delirious claim. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5221 Posts
On February 03 2016 19:51 ZombieFrog wrote: Eh I do feel for DK and his team. I'm certain without a doubt that no matter what changes they made, even if they followed all of the communities ideas to the letter (which would be a silly thing to do) people would inevitably bitch endlessly about something in SC2. I've seen it from the beginning and I'm certain it will continue until the end. Constructive criticism is cool and what you should give to game developers, but that is sadly not what people give Do you think it is too much to expect politicians to draft good laws? Is it too much to expect a doctor to treat someone effectively? Is it too much to expect the the trashman to actually pick your trash every week? So why is it too much to expect the design team to just do their job and create a great game? They are paid to do that. The tidal wave of criticism the design team faces is a result of poor performance. It didn't exist when the game was at its height (sure there was some criticism, but not to the enx | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On February 04 2016 04:21 BronzeKnee wrote: Do you think it is too much to expect politicians to draft good laws? Is it too much to expect a doctor to treat someone effectively? Is it too much to expect the the trashman to actually pick your trash every week? So why is it too much to expect the design team to just do their job and create a great game? They are paid to do that. The tidal wave of criticism the design team faces is a result of poor performance. It didn't exist when the game was at its height (sure there was some criticism, but not to the enx In the interest of fairness, I take issue with your examples (though not your point). Doctors and politicians have - literally - thousands of years of encyclopedias, expertise, and history to fall back on. They go to school specifically to learn what they will do as professionals. And then they fuck up. All the time. Conversely, RTS is a twenty year old genre, in which there have been MAYBE fifty notable titles, and of those fifty MAYBE ten have valuable lessons that a SC2 designer could learn. There is no grad school that'll teach you how to make a perfect MU in SC2. In point of fact, half of the fan base won't be happy with Protoss until practically all of their units, PO, and warp gate are reworked from the ground up, while the other half thinks that Protoss is the only race that actually takes S in this RTS. Unlike issues of human rights, or taking out a rotten tooth, where there is often a clear right and a clear wrong, the issue of Protoss (and anything else in this game) comes down to preference. Again, I wouldn't dream of disagreeing that their design of this game has been haphazard and continues to have a gaping black hole where "vision for how the game should be" is supposed to go... but in a very real and very unavoidable sense, Blizzard devs have been learning their craft as they built this game. Some allowance must be made for that. Although they learn very, very slowly. | ||
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