Let's introduce a rule in World Cup allowing all countries except for Germany to participate. Everyone can make stupid analogies in favor of any argument. It seems that alternatives for WCS 2016 hit casters' pockets really hard if they defend it so fiercely.
According to Rotti, he's actually losing a lot of the income he gets from casting in this new system.
So could it possibly be the casters like the WCS system because they genuinely find it to be a good system and they are excited for the other things in the future? Maybe, just maybe, they actually care about the scene...
No they really hate the scene and don´t know anything! They will try do their best to destroy this game future. Srsly, what the hell? This guys know so much more than anyone of us, they work close with organizers and people behind the scene, it is just laughable to imply they are saying this because they are employes. Actually, if they want to stay sc2 caster it is theire only interest that this game is doing well, otherwise they can soon go to the job center. Rotti and Nate haven´t even a stable income and are still supportive of the WCS`s changes. I can´t relate to you all at all.
I think the WCS´s changes are the way to go. I want this game to succeed. Keep crying how shit everything is and when you finally achieved your goal, there will be no sc2 left. Just so you know, many koreans think this is the right move, what does this tell if they get region locked out and still think it is good for the future? What do i know, i know nothing, but I have a choice. I keep watching sc2 and hope that it turns for the best, or i cry like a little baby, eventhough it won´t change a damn thing 2016, beside turning new people and sponsors away of this community.
I am sorry for the foreigners and casters to deal with all this crap the next months. You will all do a great job to make this place unbearable, as you already did with the dreamhack threads. It really hurts.
glhf, you win.
Wait, are you directing all of that at me? Did you fail to realize that I am on the side of these casters and agree with the 2016 system or did I jump to conclusions on who you're talking to?
On January 25 2016 05:51 Ppjack wrote: No foreigners = no foreign tournaments. What the fuck do you think...
And to the general answer: yes I joined TL in 2015, but have been lurking since the release of starcraft 2. I joined because I had to say something about the general mentality here that was so condescendend towards the foreign scene while I have been enjoying playing / watching the game for 6 years (with breaks).
And while starcraft was my real esport revelation (beside war3 and cs via hltv at the time back in 2002-6) I became an esport fan.
And I don't understand why people are that conservative and bitching about the state of the game while esport is becoming a real huge thing.
Everything is tried and done in the good direction and korea is not dying, just learning to take care of its players by itself. Global events are very much needed but region lock is a step in the good direction if you want starcraft to stay relevant on the esport map
We live in a modern era where large, highly-competitive, and prominent tournaments mostly net far more viewers online than they ever could support in person. With that in mind, what argument is there for keeping foreign tournaments that field weaker players than concurrently running Korean ones? You can just watch Korean ones on stream or VOD. There is always one going on. If you're operating on the assumption that more tournaments = good and fewer tournaments = bad, then you're arguing quantity over quality. You're arguing middle school after school football against World Cup. If you had to choose between watching 10 of the former or 1 of the latter, would you really watch the 10? So why need foreign tournaments, why artificially raise demand for them and artificially decrease value of Korean ones?
And let's not jump the gun; just because there will be no life support for the foreign scene does not mean that there will be no tournaments at all. In Brood War there have been and still are foreign tournaments despite the fact that any real money or global prestige has fled the scene over a decade go. A smaller scene is not necessarily a bad thing, either. In fact, it makes it for on average a better one, as the remaining fans and players are on average more dedicated to one thing above all the little side things: the game. All the hype beasts, nationalistic and racist notions, and money-grubbing individuals will disappear by this point.
Your final argument, which had no real argument at all and was more of a statement of opinion, leads me to believe that you care more about the prominence of StarCraft than of the quality of it. StarCraft will stay "relevant" because of the top level competitions, where top level competitors flaunt top level play. Not because of Minor Foreign Nation Tournament #6, where you see Foreign Player Z (#867 in the world by skill) vs. Foreign Player T (#467 in the world by skill). Region lock is good for StarCraft? It certainly did wonders for B.Net2.0, where any player who is serious about improving had to buy a Korean version of the game to play on Korean servers. You know, where the real competition and practice can be had, unlike the other servers where GM is below the level of a 15-year-old Korean Masters player who plays after his evening study classes.
I want to believe this is the start of a bigger player base/audience in foreignland. So people actually start paying good salaries again, sponsor come back and the state of starcraft in a dreamhack / iem / any big org, is not to ask. Starcraft will be there.
Once it is done, along the development of other esports, money will be invested and eventually foreign players will catch up.
If not, the system à la Lol with separate scenes (with sc2 NA scene must grow again) and then global events few times a year (let's say NA/EU/CN/KR) would happen and hype the fuck out of everyone.
Quality will still be there, and quantity can't hurt.
You think it will create a bigger player base/audience than in the glory days, when foreign players were actually (somewhat) relevant? That is very optimistic. Obviously, I can't see the future, so I won't say it's not possible. However, you have to consider: how did SC2 end up in this situation in the first place?
There was a time when foreigners were winning tournaments, sometimes even against Koreans (although no GSL or the like). There was a time when foreigners were actively playing in Korean tournaments, and even winning games there. Foreigners had teams, sponsors, streams, tournaments, everything they needed to be motivated to become the best. What ended up happening?
Even when foreign players had all those things that you want to bring back, they still could not consistently rise above Koreans. The few that made impacts, such as Stephano, are just that: few. Compare the amount of foreign players who have been relevant on a global scale, that you would confidently place in the top 10 players at the time, to the amount of Korean players who have come and gone from that top 10. The ratio is undoubtedly heavily leaning towards Koreans.
Foreign players catching up is simply not a realistic possibility. If it was, it would have happened by now. Isn't this the main underlying reason for this new system in the first place?
Finally something positive that is not a shitpost in the stupid twitter war!
How else would thoorin get a following than shitpost in twitter.
You seriously think Thorin's point, not his arguing style or replies, but his main point, is wrong?
Not even a fan or follower of the guy in any way, like I said previously, but it seems he's at least on the correct side of the argument this time.
Yes?! When I like to watch my local 5th league football team that doesn't force me to watch Austrian Bundesliga. Hell, it doesn't even force me to watch German Bundesliga or champions league. I'm still a football fan in that case.
Euh not really. If you are a fan of the game which is played you, or rather a fan of the competition in said game, you should actually care for the highest lvl possible. If that's not the case, are you really into the gameplay? Or is it more of an emotional investment created by other factors primarily. I tend to agree with Thorin on this, because it makes a lot of sense
Other factors are part of it. Esports is about the whole package. If you are only into gameplay I encourage you to stop wasting your time watching and go play instead. That's the only way you actually experience gameplay, the esports part is about competition, personalities, emotions, racial bias and whatever someone enjoys about SC2.
Let's introduce a rule in World Cup allowing all countries except for Germany to participate. Everyone can make stupid analogies in favor of any argument. It seems that alternatives for WCS 2016 hit casters' pockets really hard if they defend it so fiercely.
According to Rotti, he's actually losing a lot of the income he gets from casting in this new system.
So could it possibly be the casters like the WCS system because they genuinely find it to be a good system and they are excited for the other things in the future? Maybe, just maybe, they actually care about the scene...
No they really hate the scene and don´t know anything! They will try do their best to destroy this game future. Srsly, what the hell? This guys know so much more than anyone of us, they work close with organizers and people behind the scene, it is just laughable to imply they are saying this because they are employes. Actually, if they want to stay sc2 caster it is theire only interest that this game is doing well, otherwise they can soon go to the job center. Rotti and Nate haven´t even a stable income and are still supportive of the WCS`s changes. I can´t relate to you all at all.
I think the WCS´s changes are the way to go. I want this game to succeed. Keep crying how shit everything is and when you finally achieved your goal, there will be no sc2 left. Just so you know, many koreans think this is the right move, what does this tell if they get region locked out and still think it is good for the future? What do i know, i know nothing, but I have a choice. I keep watching sc2 and hope that it turns for the best, or i cry like a little baby, eventhough it won´t change a damn thing 2016, beside turning new people and sponsors away of this community.
I am sorry for the foreigners and casters to deal with all this crap the next months. You will all do a great job to make this place unbearable, as you already did with the dreamhack threads. It really hurts.
glhf, you win.
Seriously for the 100000000000000000000000 times when you and the likes of you understand that the issue is not supporting the foreigners but the fuck over Koreans? But no, lets just keep blah blah WCS great blah blah foreigners awesome blah blah you are daed gaem spammers too negative blah blah... etc
Seriously we are on the same side! we want the game to grow but we want something to compensate for the Koreans. Is that too much to ask now?!
Not at all. I am watching GSL/SSL(yes SSL is still new) since the beginning of Hots and would be glad if there is a compensation for the 2 missing seasons of this tournament. Heck, if there would be more tournaments/weekly cups in korea it would be great. Now the question would be, how do you approach this problem, but with regards of seeing the whole picture aka keeping an eye on 99 percent of the rest of the countries? Somebody already mentioned implementing 2 Finals, maybe one for the very best koreans, and one for the rest of the world? Might be illusional.
Let's introduce a rule in World Cup allowing all countries except for Germany to participate. Everyone can make stupid analogies in favor of any argument. It seems that alternatives for WCS 2016 hit casters' pockets really hard if they defend it so fiercely.
According to Rotti, he's actually losing a lot of the income he gets from casting in this new system.
So could it possibly be the casters like the WCS system because they genuinely find it to be a good system and they are excited for the other things in the future? Maybe, just maybe, they actually care about the scene...
No they really hate the scene and don´t know anything! They will try do their best to destroy this game future. Srsly, what the hell? This guys know so much more than anyone of us, they work close with organizers and people behind the scene, it is just laughable to imply they are saying this because they are employes. Actually, if they want to stay sc2 caster it is theire only interest that this game is doing well, otherwise they can soon go to the job center. Rotti and Nate haven´t even a stable income and are still supportive of the WCS`s changes. I can´t relate to you all at all.
I think the WCS´s changes are the way to go. I want this game to succeed. Keep crying how shit everything is and when you finally achieved your goal, there will be no sc2 left. Just so you know, many koreans think this is the right move, what does this tell if they get region locked out and still think it is good for the future? What do i know, i know nothing, but I have a choice. I keep watching sc2 and hope that it turns for the best, or i cry like a little baby, eventhough it won´t change a damn thing 2016, beside turning new people and sponsors away of this community.
I am sorry for the foreigners and casters to deal with all this crap the next months. You will all do a great job to make this place unbearable, as you already did with the dreamhack threads. It really hurts.
glhf, you win.
Wait, are you directing all of that at me? Did you fail to realize that I am on the side of these casters and agree with the 2016 system or did I jump to conclusions on who you're talking to?
When replying I realized you might thing i am directing it to you. My apologize, i hoped the last paragraph made it more clear that i wasn´t talking about you. Sorry.
Let's introduce a rule in World Cup allowing all countries except for Germany to participate. Everyone can make stupid analogies in favor of any argument. It seems that alternatives for WCS 2016 hit casters' pockets really hard if they defend it so fiercely.
According to Rotti, he's actually losing a lot of the income he gets from casting in this new system.
So could it possibly be the casters like the WCS system because they genuinely find it to be a good system and they are excited for the other things in the future? Maybe, just maybe, they actually care about the scene...
No they really hate the scene and don´t know anything! They will try do their best to destroy this game future. Srsly, what the hell? This guys know so much more than anyone of us, they work close with organizers and people behind the scene, it is just laughable to imply they are saying this because they are employes. Actually, if they want to stay sc2 caster it is theire only interest that this game is doing well, otherwise they can soon go to the job center. Rotti and Nate haven´t even a stable income and are still supportive of the WCS`s changes. I can´t relate to you all at all.
I think the WCS´s changes are the way to go. I want this game to succeed. Keep crying how shit everything is and when you finally achieved your goal, there will be no sc2 left. Just so you know, many koreans think this is the right move, what does this tell if they get region locked out and still think it is good for the future? What do i know, i know nothing, but I have a choice. I keep watching sc2 and hope that it turns for the best, or i cry like a little baby, eventhough it won´t change a damn thing 2016, beside turning new people and sponsors away of this community.
I am sorry for the foreigners and casters to deal with all this crap the next months. You will all do a great job to make this place unbearable, as you already did with the dreamhack threads. It really hurts.
glhf, you win.
Wait, are you directing all of that at me? Did you fail to realize that I am on the side of these casters and agree with the 2016 system or did I jump to conclusions on who you're talking to?
When replying I realized you might thing i am directing it to you. My apologize, i hoped the last paragraph made it more clear that i wasn´t talking about you. Sorry.
I am super interested in what's under the NDA cover as well as future developments. I shall withhold saying that Blizzard are a bunch of racist idiots until I learn more about these developments.
On January 25 2016 07:13 Incognoto wrote: I am super interested in what's under the NDA cover as well as future developments. I shall withhold saying that Blizzard are a bunch of racist idiots until I learn more about these developments.
Well the only thing that wouldn't piss the community off even more would be the announcement of WCS Global Events.
But given the history of Blizzard this year and who's saying it, I'm guessing something with the Circuit championships
On January 25 2016 07:13 Incognoto wrote: I am super interested in what's under the NDA cover as well as future developments. I shall withhold saying that Blizzard are a bunch of racist idiots until I learn more about these developments.
I don't hold much hope for that. Like Apollo and catz were saying WCS is gonna be great blah blah and then it turned out to be this.
On January 25 2016 07:13 Incognoto wrote: I am super interested in what's under the NDA cover as well as future developments. I shall withhold saying that Blizzard are a bunch of racist idiots until I learn more about these developments.
I don't hold much hope for that. Like Apollo and catz were saying WCS is gonna be great blah blah and then it turned out to be this.
They seemed to be saying that Korea, or maybe actual global events, might be on the table. At least, that is my interpretation.
I am hopeful for the future and shall reserve my criticism until I hear more about those developments, for sure!
Finally something positive that is not a shitpost in the stupid twitter war!
How else would thoorin get a following than shitpost in twitter.
You seriously think Thorin's point, not his arguing style or replies, but his main point, is wrong?
Not even a fan or follower of the guy in any way, like I said previously, but it seems he's at least on the correct side of the argument this time.
Yes?! When I like to watch my local 5th league football team that doesn't force me to watch Austrian Bundesliga. Hell, it doesn't even force me to watch German Bundesliga or champions league. I'm still a football fan in that case.
Euh not really. If you are a fan of the game which is played you, or rather a fan of the competition in said game, you should actually care for the highest lvl possible. If that's not the case, are you really into the gameplay? Or is it more of an emotional investment created by other factors primarily. I tend to agree with Thorin on this, because it makes a lot of sense
Other factors are part of it. Esports is about the whole package. If you are only into gameplay I encourage you to stop wasting your time watching and go play instead. That's the only way you actually experience gameplay, the esports part is about competition, personalities, emotions, racial bias and whatever someone enjoys about SC2.
I am not arguing that it is 'bad' or 'wrong' to watch lower level "gameplay" for factors which aren't about the lvl of play. I am a big JD fan and obviously don't watch him because he is the best of the best. I watch GSL/SSL/Proleague because it is the highest lvl and i care about the actual gameplay shown though. When people don't do this while still claiming they are fans of the game, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Obviously some form of fandom always begins to form, that is human. But it's still kinda flawed when people claim they love the game, not the person/team/whatever. (i don't wanna imply that one form of enjoyment is necessarily 'better' , i am not really interested in that side of the argument tbh) This can be seen everywhere though, be it mainstream sports, esports, entertainment industry in general, whatever.
Something a little bit more on topic, i still fail to see why it is on blizzard to create the platform for korean up-and-comers tbh. At which point do we simply need to accept that the korean sc2 scene isn't important/big enough for young people? These kids play lol and want to become progamers in exactly that game. LoL is on OGN, sc2 is not. And as i said before, i strongly believe kespa/the teams have to find new talent on their own, not everything is part of wcs.
Hi, pretty much lurker only here but I wanted to throw this out there (plz don't lynch me) I'd like to point out that in LoL, Korea absolutely dominates their global tournaments, they are the best players in the world by far. Yet.. NA and EU LCS (which is their version of WCS) both have much much higher viewership numbers despite being lower quality games (KR gets around 50k while NA/EU get around 200-300k), hell LCS team spots in NA and EU are being reportedly sold for 1 mil while some teams in korea struggle for sponsorship. Having said this I think this shows that people don't necessarily want to watch only the best people play. I know Sc2 and LoL are very different games but they are the only games I could think of that actually have region locking esports.
Personally I'm hoping that SC2 goes f2p and has a player explosion, I just hope that if they do that they try and get rid of the noob traps the game is riddled with so that when we do get new players, they don't leave out of frustration.
On January 25 2016 07:55 Kurbz wrote: Hi, pretty much lurker only here but I wanted to throw this out there (plz don't lynch me) I'd like to point out that in LoL, Korea absolutely dominates their global tournaments, they are the best players in the world by far. Yet.. NA and EU LCS (which is their version of WCS) both have much much higher viewership numbers despite being lower quality games (KR gets around 50k while NA/EU get around 200-300k), hell LCS team spots in NA and EU are being reportedly sold for 1 mil while some teams in korea struggle for sponsorship. Having said this I think this shows that people don't necessarily want to watch only the best people play. I know Sc2 and LoL are very different games but they are the only games I could think of that actually have region locking esports.
Personally I'm hoping that SC2 goes f2p and has a player explosion, I just hope that if they do that they try and get rid of the noob traps the game is riddled with so that when we do get new players, they don't leave out of frustration.
It's true that some Korean teams (Tigers, right?) struggle with finding sponsorships, but it's unfair not to mention that Korean teams also have some of the most significant sponsors in all of esports. SKT, KT and CJ, among others (I'm iffy on Samsung since they fucked up royally with White and Blue), have a lot of money to throw at LoL, and they do. I don't know that there are very many western teams with more significant sponsorships and salaries than SKT's A-squad, for example.
On January 25 2016 07:55 Kurbz wrote: Hi, pretty much lurker only here but I wanted to throw this out there (plz don't lynch me) I'd like to point out that in LoL, Korea absolutely dominates their global tournaments, they are the best players in the world by far. Yet.. NA and EU LCS (which is their version of WCS) both have much much higher viewership numbers despite being lower quality games (KR gets around 50k while NA/EU get around 200-300k), hell LCS team spots in NA and EU are being reportedly sold for 1 mil while some teams in korea struggle for sponsorship. Having said this I think this shows that people don't necessarily want to watch only the best people play. I know Sc2 and LoL are very different games but they are the only games I could think of that actually have region locking esports.
Personally I'm hoping that SC2 goes f2p and has a player explosion, I just hope that if they do that they try and get rid of the noob traps the game is riddled with so that when we do get new players, they don't leave out of frustration.
I could be wrong but that's probably because its broadcast on tv over there. So you won't get many koreans watching on twitch or whatever. And there's always timezone issues and such.
That said i do love the EU vs NA banter/rivalry they have going on. Probably helps that their NA scene is half decent.
On January 25 2016 07:55 Kurbz wrote: Hi, pretty much lurker only here but I wanted to throw this out there (plz don't lynch me) I'd like to point out that in LoL, Korea absolutely dominates their global tournaments, they are the best players in the world by far. Yet.. NA and EU LCS (which is their version of WCS) both have much much higher viewership numbers despite being lower quality games (KR gets around 50k while NA/EU get around 200-300k), hell LCS team spots in NA and EU are being reportedly sold for 1 mil while some teams in korea struggle for sponsorship. Having said this I think this shows that people don't necessarily want to watch only the best people play. I know Sc2 and LoL are very different games but they are the only games I could think of that actually have region locking esports.
Personally I'm hoping that SC2 goes f2p and has a player explosion, I just hope that if they do that they try and get rid of the noob traps the game is riddled with so that when we do get new players, they don't leave out of frustration.
It's true that some Korean teams (Tigers, right?) struggle with finding sponsorships, but it's unfair not to mention that Korean teams also have some of the most significant sponsors in all of esports. SKT, KT and CJ, among others (I'm iffy on Samsung since they fucked up royally with White and Blue), have a lot of money to throw at LoL, and they do. I don't know that there are very many western teams with more significant sponsorships and salaries than SKT's A-squad, for example.
Just quick on the Samsung thing.
Yea they are not a major sponsor in that in Korea the esports department of the samsung teams (they also spaonsor normal sports teams etc.) is known as the (not kidding) "dumpster child" of the teams
Sooo yea, they almost get no funding etc.
This is because the management of the esports team changed after the BW transition and was given to the same marketing team that handles normal sports, they get very little funding etc. for esports and don't really care about it
On January 25 2016 07:55 Kurbz wrote: Hi, pretty much lurker only here but I wanted to throw this out there (plz don't lynch me) I'd like to point out that in LoL, Korea absolutely dominates their global tournaments, they are the best players in the world by far. Yet.. NA and EU LCS (which is their version of WCS) both have much much higher viewership numbers despite being lower quality games (KR gets around 50k while NA/EU get around 200-300k), hell LCS team spots in NA and EU are being reportedly sold for 1 mil while some teams in korea struggle for sponsorship. Having said this I think this shows that people don't necessarily want to watch only the best people play. I know Sc2 and LoL are very different games but they are the only games I could think of that actually have region locking esports.
Personally I'm hoping that SC2 goes f2p and has a player explosion, I just hope that if they do that they try and get rid of the noob traps the game is riddled with so that when we do get new players, they don't leave out of frustration.
It's true that some Korean teams (Tigers, right?) struggle with finding sponsorships, but it's unfair not to mention that Korean teams also have some of the most significant sponsors in all of esports. SKT, KT and CJ, among others (I'm iffy on Samsung since they fucked up royally with White and Blue), have a lot of money to throw at LoL, and they do. I don't know that there are very many western teams with more significant sponsorships and salaries than SKT's A-squad, for example.
Just quick on the Samsung thing.
Yea they are not a major sponsor in that in Korea the esports department of the samsung teams (they also spaonsor normal sports teams etc.) is known as the (not kidding) "dumpster child" of the teams
Sooo yea, they almost get no funding etc.
This is because the management of the esports team changed after the BW transition and was given to the same marketing team that handles normal sports, they get very little funding etc. for esports and don't really care about it
They did pretty well for themselves with the sister teams in 2014 though (yes I know they bought them off MVP), they weren't always dumpster teams
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gYkIi.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2Bixreo.png)
