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On January 25 2016 05:00 StasisField wrote:
And according to Nathanias, there is more on the way, but they are currently under NDA
I wish we were told things in more timely fashion. Would probably help. I mean, WCS announcement after GSL qualifying processes start. Rumors about changes over a week in advance, especially surrounding HSC. IEM Taipei is this weekend, we know MC is playing and that's it.
It always makes it seem like these people are like me, finishing projects on the last day they can. Except, you know, my projects aren't of relevance for thousands of people.
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On January 25 2016 05:24 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 05:15 207aicila wrote:On January 25 2016 05:07 Ppjack wrote:
While korean scene is dying, foreign scene was almost dead.
Something is tried to be done about it. And I don't like the lack of GSL/SSL but I'm sure the korean ecosystem will adapt, create side tournaments, online leagues and such.
You must be new here, the number of tournaments for the Korean scene has gone *down* over the years, not up. Interest has been waning except for the rare event (like TotalBiscuit's SHOUTCraft stuff and the OlimoLeague that himself and Olivia have helped create) and people have been retiring because of it. TB has nothing to do with the Olimoleague besides being a donation goal one time, That's all Olivia's work
I thought he actually was a patron of the thing on Patreon, if that's not accurate then I apologize! But you're right, she deserves more credit than she usually gets for it. ^^
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On January 25 2016 05:27 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 05:24 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 25 2016 05:15 207aicila wrote:On January 25 2016 05:07 Ppjack wrote:
While korean scene is dying, foreign scene was almost dead.
Something is tried to be done about it. And I don't like the lack of GSL/SSL but I'm sure the korean ecosystem will adapt, create side tournaments, online leagues and such.
You must be new here, the number of tournaments for the Korean scene has gone *down* over the years, not up. Interest has been waning except for the rare event (like TotalBiscuit's SHOUTCraft stuff and the OlimoLeague that himself and Olivia have helped create) and people have been retiring because of it. TB has nothing to do with the Olimoleague besides being a donation goal one time, That's all Olivia's work I thought he actually was a patron of the thing on Patreon, if that's not accurate then I apologize! But you're right, she deserves more credit than she usually gets for it. ^^
Well he's a patron yes, but saying he had a hand in creating Olimoleague because of that is like saying everyone who donates did  True....but at the same time not
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On January 25 2016 05:07 Ppjack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 04:48 207aicila wrote:On January 25 2016 04:42 Ppjack wrote:On January 25 2016 04:38 207aicila wrote:On January 25 2016 04:25 Luolis wrote:On January 25 2016 04:23 WrathSCII wrote:On January 25 2016 04:21 DJHelium wrote:
Thank you! Finally something positive that is not a shitpost in the stupid twitter war! How else would thoorin get a following than shitpost in twitter. You seriously think Thorin's point, not his arguing style or replies, but his main point, is wrong? Not even a fan or follower of the guy in any way, like I said previously, but it seems he's at least on the correct side of the argument this time. i'm always on his side when it comes to cs:go and I know no shit about league except the basics. But he is so far to be right.... he has an opinion that is totally not mine (and not only mine it seems) and makes so wrong points. Seriously, is it possible to have a discussion here or are people going to camp on their position ? We should order a sociological study on who is by essence in a side or the other, and who is actually trying to understand the changes and try to make the starcraft scene healthy and peren. Really But a discussion is taking place. I have not found any convincing argument as to how these changes will not be severely detrimental to the SC2 scene (at least the top players, for those of us who actually care about them) and thus my enjoyment of the game. All these commentators and personalities acting like manchildren and saying "i swear its going to be awesome but we just cant tell you anything" is certainly not helping in any way. You are very much entitled to your opinion, but you presenting your opinion will not make me give less of a shit about the Korean scene and its tragic, slow death. While korean scene is dying, foreign scene was almost dead. Something is tried to be done about it. And I don't like the lack of GSL/SSL but I'm sure the korean ecosystem will adapt, create side tournaments, online leagues and such. And if we can have few global event a year à la Lol, everything will be awesome. That's my opinion, and I don't understand the people that are already bitching that korean scene is dead or whatever. I understand the concern, and th'tas why people must work in a good direction for the sustainability of every scene. Starcraft was not in a good state anymore, and when something is done to encourage people to watch / go pro a lot of people are blindly bitching. Just seeing the argument "esl casters are not legit cuz paid by blizz" makes me want to vomit. This community, and I said it before, has become hugely toxic, nostalgic of I don't know what. Koreans are not dying. They were not showing any interest in foreign tournament, why should we focus on them? While few koreans enjoyed the foreign scene, they have always been welcome and easily fan favorite. And the scene is not in the same shape it was in 2011 when starcraft 2 was the only relevant esport. Start acting like a real community and work on it.
I don't see the tragedy in the foreign scene dying. If it cannot sustain itself, it shouldn't be put on life support. This is sad to hear on the bedside of a dying friend who has been dying a slow death, but you have to objectively look at the situation not as his best friend but as a medical practitioner if you plan to make arguments.
By using affirmative action to bolster the chances of subpar players and eliminating opportunities for players who are in the top 20 players in Korea (and therefore the world) at the moment, the system contradicts one of the fundamental tenets of competition. By doing this you are sending the message that "If you're not the best of the best, don't bother," to Koreans. It sends the message that "If you're one of the best foreigners, you'll get into a tournament you didn't deserve to be a part of because you're weaker than 50 players who weren't allowed in." That doesn't sound like a fair foundation to me.
If the foreign scene hasn't gotten its shit together to produce players who can truly compete with Koreans in years, why should the foreign scene continue? It's being sustained by bureaucratic decisions and nationalistic fans alone, not skill. In a game of skill, skill is the only thing that should matter, imo. People have been complaining about "faceless" Koreans for years... And frankly, that's disheartening, because it is more important to be a fan of the game than of a player or a nation. What's best for the game is the highest level of play possible. By enforcing affirmative action, you're hurting the longevity of the furnaces that produce strong players, furnaces which don't exist in the foreign scene anyway.
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No they really hate the scene and don´t know anything! They will try do their best to destroy this game future. Srsly, what the hell? This guys know so much more than anyone of us, they work close with organizers and people behind the scene, it is just laughable to imply they are saying this because they are employes. Actually, if they want to stay sc2 caster it is theire only interest that this game is doing well, otherwise they can soon go to the job center. Rotti and Nate haven´t even a stable income and are still supportive of the WCS`s changes. I can´t relate to you all at all.
I think the WCS´s changes are the way to go. I want this game to succeed. Keep crying how shit everything is and when you finally achieved your goal, there will be no sc2 left. Just so you know, many koreans think this is the right move, what does this tell if they get region locked out and still think it is good for the future? What do i know, i know nothing, but I have a choice. I keep watching sc2 and hope that it turns for the best, or i cry like a little baby, eventhough it won´t change a damn thing 2016, beside turning new people and sponsors away of this community.
I am sorry for the foreigners and casters to deal with all this crap the next months. You will all do a great job to make this place unbearable, as you already did with the dreamhack threads. It really hurts.
glhf, you win.
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Man it's like some of you have never heard of "conflict of interest". Sickening number of appeal to authority fallacies here.
Or maybe you just haven't been here long enough to be disappointed by Blizzard and their "we know best" solutions that tend to do more harm than good or come far too late to be relevant.
Also Jealous' post is on point.
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On January 25 2016 04:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 04:38 207aicila wrote:On January 25 2016 04:25 Luolis wrote:On January 25 2016 04:23 WrathSCII wrote:Thank you! Finally something positive that is not a shitpost in the stupid twitter war! How else would thoorin get a following than shitpost in twitter. You seriously think Thorin's point, not his arguing style or replies, but his main point, is wrong? Not even a fan or follower of the guy in any way, like I said previously, but it seems he's at least on the correct side of the argument this time. Yes?! When I like to watch my local 5th league football team that doesn't force me to watch Austrian Bundesliga. Hell, it doesn't even force me to watch German Bundesliga or champions league. I'm still a football fan in that case.
Euh not really. If you are a fan of the game which is played you, or rather a fan of the competition in said game, you should actually care for the highest lvl possible.
If that's not the case, are you really into the gameplay? Or is it more of an emotional investment created by other factors primarily. I tend to agree with Thorin on this, because it makes a lot of sense
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No foreigners = no foreign tournaments.
What the fuck do you think...
And to the general answer: yes I joined TL in 2015, but have been lurking since the release of starcraft 2. I joined because I had to say something about the general mentality here that was so condescendend towards the foreign scene while I have been enjoying playing / watching the game for 6 years (with breaks).
And while starcraft was my real esport revelation (beside war3 and cs via hltv at the time back in 2002-6) I became an esport fan.
And I don't understand why people are that conservative and bitching about the state of the game while esport is becoming a real huge thing.
Everything is tried and done in the good direction and korea is not dying, just learning to take care of its players by itself. Global events are very much needed but region lock is a step in the good direction if you want starcraft to stay relevant on the esport map
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On January 25 2016 05:51 Ppjack wrote:
No foreigners = no foreign tournaments.
What the fuck do you think...
And to the general answer: yes I joined TL in 2015, but have been lurking since the release of starcraft 2. I joined because I had to say something about the general mentality here that was so condescendend towards the foreign scene while I have been enjoying playing / watching the game for 6 years (with breaks).
And while starcraft was my real esport revelation (beside war3 and cs via hltv at the time back in 2002-6) I became an esport fan.
And I don't understand why people are that conservative and bitching about the state of the game while esport is becoming a real huge thing.
Everything is tried and done in the good direction and korea is not dying, just learning to take care of its players by itself. Global events are very much needed but region lock is a step in the good direction if you want starcraft to stay relevant on the esport map
Look here's the thing. Ultimately there are ways to implement region locking without completely shitting on the region that has the highest concentration of top level progamers. If they did it that way, I personally wouldn't have a problem with it, although some still would (because it's the internet). But they're not.
You keep saying Korea isn't dying, that's just proving that you don't follow the scene closely enough.
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On January 25 2016 05:49 207aicila wrote:
Man it's like some of you have never heard of "conflict of interest". Sickening number of appeal to authority fallacies here.
Or maybe you just haven't been here long enough to be disappointed by Blizzard and their "we know best" solutions that tend to do more harm than good or come far too late to be relevant.
Also Jealous' post is on point.
They made a work from their passion and now these guys should be less relevant than the average TL/reddit poster.
That is so pathetic to read
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On January 25 2016 05:53 Ppjack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 05:49 207aicila wrote:
Man it's like some of you have never heard of "conflict of interest". Sickening number of appeal to authority fallacies here.
Or maybe you just haven't been here long enough to be disappointed by Blizzard and their "we know best" solutions that tend to do more harm than good or come far too late to be relevant.
Also Jealous' post is on point. They made a work from their passion and now these guys should be less relevant than the average TL/reddit poster. That is so pathetic to read
With the way they've handled the situation this evening, their credibility has definitely taken a hit, and rightfully so. Like I said, empty promises of "we can't tell you anything but it's going to be great" don't mean much, because we've already heard these many times before. You claim to have been around since 2010 but somehow you don't remember this?
I wouldn't claim they're less relevant than the average netizen, but they've been very defensive about it without providing any real argument of any description. Very unprofessional and uninformative. Just because they work in the industry doesn't mean their word is the word of God, nor does it mean that they will always provide truthful answers.
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On January 25 2016 05:53 Ppjack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 05:49 207aicila wrote:
Man it's like some of you have never heard of "conflict of interest". Sickening number of appeal to authority fallacies here.
Or maybe you just haven't been here long enough to be disappointed by Blizzard and their "we know best" solutions that tend to do more harm than good or come far too late to be relevant.
Also Jealous' post is on point. They made a work from their passion and now these guys should be less relevant than the average TL/reddit poster. That is so pathetic to read
conflict of interest. Seing how the community figures react to tweets and reddit threads, its quite obvious. (I am 30 now, maybe with 20 i would think differently, just saying maybe not all people have the same skills/experiences)
@Jealous: Damn, i just saw your special needs comparison post, wp mate!
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On January 25 2016 05:41 IceBerrY wrote:No they really hate the scene and don´t know anything! They will try do their best to destroy this game future. Srsly, what the hell? This guys know so much more than anyone of us, they work close with organizers and people behind the scene, it is just laughable to imply they are saying this because they are employes. Actually, if they want to stay sc2 caster it is theire only interest that this game is doing well, otherwise they can soon go to the job center. Rotti and Nate haven´t even a stable income and are still supportive of the WCS`s changes. I can´t relate to you all at all. I think the WCS´s changes are the way to go. I want this game to succeed. Keep crying how shit everything is and when you finally achieved your goal, there will be no sc2 left. Just so you know, many koreans think this is the right move, what does this tell if they get region locked out and still think it is good for the future? What do i know, i know nothing, but I have a choice. I keep watching sc2 and hope that it turns for the best, or i cry like a little baby, eventhough it won´t change a damn thing 2016, beside turning new people and sponsors away of this community. I am sorry for the foreigners and casters to deal with all this crap the next months. You will all do a great job to make this place unbearable, as you already did with the dreamhack threads. It really hurts. glhf, you win.
Seriously for the 100000000000000000000000 times when you and the likes of you understand that the issue is not supporting the foreigners but the fuck over Koreans? But no, lets just keep blah blah WCS great blah blah foreigners awesome blah blah you are daed gaem spammers too negative blah blah... etc
Seriously we are on the same side! we want the game to grow but we want something to compensate for the Koreans. Is that too much to ask now?!
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On January 25 2016 06:01 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 05:41 IceBerrY wrote:No they really hate the scene and don´t know anything! They will try do their best to destroy this game future. Srsly, what the hell? This guys know so much more than anyone of us, they work close with organizers and people behind the scene, it is just laughable to imply they are saying this because they are employes. Actually, if they want to stay sc2 caster it is theire only interest that this game is doing well, otherwise they can soon go to the job center. Rotti and Nate haven´t even a stable income and are still supportive of the WCS`s changes. I can´t relate to you all at all. I think the WCS´s changes are the way to go. I want this game to succeed. Keep crying how shit everything is and when you finally achieved your goal, there will be no sc2 left. Just so you know, many koreans think this is the right move, what does this tell if they get region locked out and still think it is good for the future? What do i know, i know nothing, but I have a choice. I keep watching sc2 and hope that it turns for the best, or i cry like a little baby, eventhough it won´t change a damn thing 2016, beside turning new people and sponsors away of this community. I am sorry for the foreigners and casters to deal with all this crap the next months. You will all do a great job to make this place unbearable, as you already did with the dreamhack threads. It really hurts. glhf, you win. Seriously for the 100000000000000000000000 times when you and the likes of you understand that the issue is not supporting the foreigners but the fuck over Koreans? But no, lets just keep blah blah WCS great blah blah foreigners awesome blah blah you are daed gaem spammers too negative blah blah... etc Seriously we are on the same side! we want the game to grow but we want something to compensate for the Koreans. Is that too much to ask now?!
Me and the like of me are not blindly supportive of the new WCS system.
Just fighting the ambiant negativity. This system is not that bad imo and the flaws are to be discussed on worked on. For the better of starcraft.
I remember the time when almost only BTTV was creating events, and the only good content to watch was few weekend tournaments and low quality streaming of korean leagues (or vods).
I want to believe everything is done in the right direction, not perfect, but people are trying. And the negativity/conservative attitude is not only shown towards the wcs system, but towards foreigners in general.
edit: kind of hard to follow the twitter game, reddit and tl at the same time.. what tf am i doing of my sunday evening 
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On January 25 2016 05:51 Ppjack wrote:
No foreigners = no foreign tournaments.
What the fuck do you think...
And to the general answer: yes I joined TL in 2015, but have been lurking since the release of starcraft 2. I joined because I had to say something about the general mentality here that was so condescendend towards the foreign scene while I have been enjoying playing / watching the game for 6 years (with breaks).
And while starcraft was my real esport revelation (beside war3 and cs via hltv at the time back in 2002-6) I became an esport fan.
And I don't understand why people are that conservative and bitching about the state of the game while esport is becoming a real huge thing.
Everything is tried and done in the good direction and korea is not dying, just learning to take care of its players by itself. Global events are very much needed but region lock is a step in the good direction if you want starcraft to stay relevant on the esport map
We live in a modern era where large, highly-competitive, and prominent tournaments mostly net far more viewers online than they ever could support in person. With that in mind, what argument is there for keeping foreign tournaments that field weaker players than concurrently running Korean ones? You can just watch Korean ones on stream or VOD. There is (was?) almost always one going on. If you're operating on the assumption that more tournaments = good and fewer tournaments = bad, then you're arguing quantity over quality. You're arguing middle school gym class football against World Cup. If you had to choose between watching 10 of the former or 1 of the latter, would you really watch the 10? So why need foreign tournaments, why artificially raise demand for them and artificially decrease value of Korean ones?
And let's not jump the gun; just because there will be no life support for the foreign scene does not mean that there will be no tournaments at all. In Brood War there have been and still are foreign tournaments despite the fact that any real money or global prestige has fled the scene over a decade go. A smaller scene is not necessarily a bad thing, either. In fact, it makes for on average a better one, as the remaining fans and players are on average more dedicated to one thing above all the little side things: the game. All the hype beasts, nationalistic and racist notions, and money-grubbing individuals will disappear by this point.
Your final argument, which had no real argument at all and was more of a statement of opinion, leads me to believe that you care more about the prominence of StarCraft than of the quality of it. StarCraft will stay "relevant" because of the top level competitions, where top level competitors flaunt top level play. Not because of Minor Foreign Nation Tournament #6, where you see Foreign Player Z (#867 in the world by skill) vs. Foreign Player T (#467 in the world by skill). Region lock is good for StarCraft? It certainly did wonders for B.Net2.0, where any player who is serious about improving had to buy a Korean version of the game to play on Korean servers. You know, where the real competition and practice can be had, unlike the other servers where GM is below the level of a 15-year-old Korean Masters player who plays after his evening study classes.
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On January 25 2016 05:51 Ppjack wrote:
Global events are very much needed but region lock is a step in the good direction if you want starcraft to stay relevant on the esport map
How does that help Starcraft stay relevant as a esport? The viewer numbers, if I remember correctly, are down, not up, after the change. So outside of giving free money to players who are not competative on a globale scale what has it accomplished?
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On January 25 2016 06:01 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 05:41 IceBerrY wrote:No they really hate the scene and don´t know anything! They will try do their best to destroy this game future. Srsly, what the hell? This guys know so much more than anyone of us, they work close with organizers and people behind the scene, it is just laughable to imply they are saying this because they are employes. Actually, if they want to stay sc2 caster it is theire only interest that this game is doing well, otherwise they can soon go to the job center. Rotti and Nate haven´t even a stable income and are still supportive of the WCS`s changes. I can´t relate to you all at all. I think the WCS´s changes are the way to go. I want this game to succeed. Keep crying how shit everything is and when you finally achieved your goal, there will be no sc2 left. Just so you know, many koreans think this is the right move, what does this tell if they get region locked out and still think it is good for the future? What do i know, i know nothing, but I have a choice. I keep watching sc2 and hope that it turns for the best, or i cry like a little baby, eventhough it won´t change a damn thing 2016, beside turning new people and sponsors away of this community. I am sorry for the foreigners and casters to deal with all this crap the next months. You will all do a great job to make this place unbearable, as you already did with the dreamhack threads. It really hurts. glhf, you win. Seriously for the 100000000000000000000000 times when you and the likes of you understand that the issue is not supporting the foreigners but the fuck over Koreans? But no, lets just keep blah blah WCS great blah blah foreigners awesome blah blah you are daed gaem spammers too negative blah blah... etc Seriously we are on the same side! we want the game to grow but we want something to compensate for the Koreans. Is that too much to ask now?!
Seriously, the conversation would flow much better if WCS defender stop assuming that disapproving WCS means give 0 support to the foreigners and leave all to Korea for grabs. It would also help if the WCS critics would stop calling racist and other names.
I think on both sides, critics and defenders, there is a majority that thinks helping the foreigners is OK and WCS does a good job at it, but it does a poor job because it leaves the Koreans to rot and that part needs to be changed.
Edit: edited double negation
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On January 25 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 05:51 Ppjack wrote:
No foreigners = no foreign tournaments.
What the fuck do you think...
And to the general answer: yes I joined TL in 2015, but have been lurking since the release of starcraft 2. I joined because I had to say something about the general mentality here that was so condescendend towards the foreign scene while I have been enjoying playing / watching the game for 6 years (with breaks).
And while starcraft was my real esport revelation (beside war3 and cs via hltv at the time back in 2002-6) I became an esport fan.
And I don't understand why people are that conservative and bitching about the state of the game while esport is becoming a real huge thing.
Everything is tried and done in the good direction and korea is not dying, just learning to take care of its players by itself. Global events are very much needed but region lock is a step in the good direction if you want starcraft to stay relevant on the esport map We live in a modern era where large, highly-competitive, and prominent tournaments mostly net far more viewers online than they ever could support in person. With that in mind, what argument is there for keeping foreign tournaments that field weaker players than concurrently running Korean ones? You can just watch Korean ones on stream or VOD. There is always one going on. If you're operating on the assumption that more tournaments = good and fewer tournaments = bad, then you're arguing quantity over quality. You're arguing middle school after school football against World Cup. If you had to choose between watching 10 of the former or 1 of the latter, would you really watch the 10? So why need foreign tournaments, why artificially raise demand for them and artificially decrease value of Korean ones? And let's not jump the gun; just because there will be no life support for the foreign scene does not mean that there will be no tournaments at all. In Brood War there have been and still are foreign tournaments despite the fact that any real money or global prestige has fled the scene over a decade go. A smaller scene is not necessarily a bad thing, either. In fact, it makes it for on average a better one, as the remaining fans and players are on average more dedicated to one thing above all the little side things: the game. All the hype beasts, nationalistic and racist notions, and money-grubbing individuals will disappear by this point. Your final argument, which had no real argument at all and was more of a statement of opinion, leads me to believe that you care more about the prominence of StarCraft than of the quality of it. StarCraft will stay "relevant" because of the top level competitions, where top level competitors flaunt top level play. Not because of Minor Foreign Nation Tournament #6, where you see Foreign Player Z (#867 in the world by skill) vs. Foreign Player T (#467 in the world by skill). Region lock is good for StarCraft? It certainly did wonders for B.Net2.0, where any player who is serious about improving had to buy a Korean version of the game to play on Korean servers. You know, where the real competition and practice can be had, unlike the other servers where GM is below the level of a 15-year-old Korean Masters player who plays after his evening study classes.
I want to believe this is the start of a bigger player base/audience in foreignland. So people actually start paying good salaries again, sponsor come back and the state of starcraft in a dreamhack / iem / any big org, is not to ask. Starcraft will be there.
Once it is done, along the development of other esports, money will be invested and eventually foreign players will catch up.
If not, the system à la Lol with separate scenes (with sc2 NA scene must grow again) and then global events few times a year (let's say NA/EU/CN/KR) would happen and hype the fuck out of everyone.
Quality will still be there, and quantity can't hurt.
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On January 25 2016 06:14 Silvana wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 06:01 WrathSCII wrote:On January 25 2016 05:41 IceBerrY wrote:No they really hate the scene and don´t know anything! They will try do their best to destroy this game future. Srsly, what the hell? This guys know so much more than anyone of us, they work close with organizers and people behind the scene, it is just laughable to imply they are saying this because they are employes. Actually, if they want to stay sc2 caster it is theire only interest that this game is doing well, otherwise they can soon go to the job center. Rotti and Nate haven´t even a stable income and are still supportive of the WCS`s changes. I can´t relate to you all at all. I think the WCS´s changes are the way to go. I want this game to succeed. Keep crying how shit everything is and when you finally achieved your goal, there will be no sc2 left. Just so you know, many koreans think this is the right move, what does this tell if they get region locked out and still think it is good for the future? What do i know, i know nothing, but I have a choice. I keep watching sc2 and hope that it turns for the best, or i cry like a little baby, eventhough it won´t change a damn thing 2016, beside turning new people and sponsors away of this community. I am sorry for the foreigners and casters to deal with all this crap the next months. You will all do a great job to make this place unbearable, as you already did with the dreamhack threads. It really hurts. glhf, you win. Seriously for the 100000000000000000000000 times when you and the likes of you understand that the issue is not supporting the foreigners but the fuck over Koreans? But no, lets just keep blah blah WCS great blah blah foreigners awesome blah blah you are daed gaem spammers too negative blah blah... etc Seriously we are on the same side! we want the game to grow but we want something to compensate for the Koreans. Is that too much to ask now?! Seriously, the conversation would flow much better if WCS defender stop assuming that disapproving WCS doesn't mean give 0 support to the foreigners and leave all to Korea for grabs. It would also help if the WCS critics would stop calling racist and other names. I think on both sides, critics and defenders, there is a majority that thinks helping the foreigners is OK and WCS does a good job at it, but it does a poor job because it leaves the Koreans to rot and that part needs to be changed.
We can also still get back to this conversation in 6 months if it turns out that shit is really hitting the fan for Korea because they legit only have 5 tournaments to compete in outside of Proleague and nothing's working. After all, it's still the first month.
But if there really is to be a conversation it would certainly help if people stop being consistently offended about everything. That includes us plebs as much as it does the pros and other community figures who are bitching on twitter.
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On January 25 2016 06:15 Ppjack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On January 25 2016 05:51 Ppjack wrote:
No foreigners = no foreign tournaments.
What the fuck do you think...
And to the general answer: yes I joined TL in 2015, but have been lurking since the release of starcraft 2. I joined because I had to say something about the general mentality here that was so condescendend towards the foreign scene while I have been enjoying playing / watching the game for 6 years (with breaks).
And while starcraft was my real esport revelation (beside war3 and cs via hltv at the time back in 2002-6) I became an esport fan.
And I don't understand why people are that conservative and bitching about the state of the game while esport is becoming a real huge thing.
Everything is tried and done in the good direction and korea is not dying, just learning to take care of its players by itself. Global events are very much needed but region lock is a step in the good direction if you want starcraft to stay relevant on the esport map We live in a modern era where large, highly-competitive, and prominent tournaments mostly net far more viewers online than they ever could support in person. With that in mind, what argument is there for keeping foreign tournaments that field weaker players than concurrently running Korean ones? You can just watch Korean ones on stream or VOD. There is always one going on. If you're operating on the assumption that more tournaments = good and fewer tournaments = bad, then you're arguing quantity over quality. You're arguing middle school after school football against World Cup. If you had to choose between watching 10 of the former or 1 of the latter, would you really watch the 10? So why need foreign tournaments, why artificially raise demand for them and artificially decrease value of Korean ones? And let's not jump the gun; just because there will be no life support for the foreign scene does not mean that there will be no tournaments at all. In Brood War there have been and still are foreign tournaments despite the fact that any real money or global prestige has fled the scene over a decade go. A smaller scene is not necessarily a bad thing, either. In fact, it makes it for on average a better one, as the remaining fans and players are on average more dedicated to one thing above all the little side things: the game. All the hype beasts, nationalistic and racist notions, and money-grubbing individuals will disappear by this point. Your final argument, which had no real argument at all and was more of a statement of opinion, leads me to believe that you care more about the prominence of StarCraft than of the quality of it. StarCraft will stay "relevant" because of the top level competitions, where top level competitors flaunt top level play. Not because of Minor Foreign Nation Tournament #6, where you see Foreign Player Z (#867 in the world by skill) vs. Foreign Player T (#467 in the world by skill). Region lock is good for StarCraft? It certainly did wonders for B.Net2.0, where any player who is serious about improving had to buy a Korean version of the game to play on Korean servers. You know, where the real competition and practice can be had, unlike the other servers where GM is below the level of a 15-year-old Korean Masters player who plays after his evening study classes. I want to believe this is the start of a bigger player base/audience in foreignland. So people actually start paying good salaries again, sponsor come back and the state of starcraft in a dreamhack / iem / any big org, is not to ask. Starcraft will be there. Once it is done, along the development of other esports, money will be invested and eventually foreign players will catch up. If not, the system à la Lol with separate scenes (with sc2 NA scene must grow again) and then global events few times a year (let's say NA/EU/CN/KR) would happen and hype the fuck out of everyone. Quality will still be there, and quantity can't hurt.
Can you in anyway put up a coherent argument as to why you think this will happen?
Foreign only tournaments are, in terms of game quality, worse then torunaments with koreans. Why do you think worse games will bring in more viewers? If people are not interested in lower skilled Starcraft to begin with more of it is not gonna help.
Why do you think the quality will still be there? There are close to no new up and comming korean Starcraft players so as soon as the players who never win GSL and never get to play in proleague gets tiered and quit there are no new corks to plug the holes.
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EPT
