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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
In his article he examines an issue that's, in his own words: Whether you agree with the article or not, I for one find it awesome that one of our staff has made the step up to writing for such a big organisation. Doing us proud, stuchiu! You can find the full article here: http://espn.go.com/esports/story/_/id/14605109/starcraft-ii-shrinking-talent-pool 
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
Autograf plz  | ||
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:12 Lunareste wrote: Proud of stuchiu for the recognition, but damn if this isn't a bleak outlook as a first article for ESPN. It's not like they're covering SC2 full time so it's actually a pretty fitting first article. | ||
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
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Brutaxilos
United States2624 Posts
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ChapatiyaqPTSM
France1887 Posts
I also don't get why "Even with the increase in prize pool, the majority of the WCS 2016 changes actually hurts the low- to mid-tier level South Koreans." At least, stuchiu doesn't really elaborate about the reason in the article. I would say that the WCS changes don't help, but I don't think they hurt more than in 2015 for example, except for the few players who went abroad to play for non-Korean teams. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16838 Posts
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ZombieFrog
United States87 Posts
Good on Stuchiu to make it onto ESPN though | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:27 ChapatiyaqPTSM wrote: I don't really get why the retirements of Flash, FanTaSy, Rain and MMA are mentioned, only to say after that it probably wasn't caused by the 2016 WCS changes. Because the main point of the article is the fact that there's a lack of new players coming in to replace the ones who retire. Not the WCS system in itself. But the WCS system as it is now is something that's not exactly fostering the growth of new talent in Korea so he has to go into that to cover his point. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
People who keep blaming WCS have little understanding of how the current WCS season works - or have bothered to check regionally who is actually able to qualify based on the way the new spot system works. I really don't know what is up with so many people who document or write as a part of the TL community and their poor understanding somehow being elevated to the most popular writers. To the point that there are no new players... there are plenty of korean players who are not on pro teams, and it'd be silly to think otherwise. It's sad that Blizzard doesn't support these current teams, or leagues but it's not really their /job/. If they don't want to do it and it makes all of us mad, which I think it does, then simply don't buy their products anymore. If the game cannot sustain itself to make room for these new players, which exist, then there is only one direction it is going to go. Oh, and as far as me and other players could tell the challenger league placements is like $2k less than it was last year if u get promoted from challenger to premier? some1 check dat for me? | ||
LastManProductions
United States252 Posts
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:39 LastManProductions wrote: If people keep saying SC2 will die, it will die. I think people are saying SC2 is dying because it is. I don't know that you can successfully argue that it goes the other way around. If you're actually under the impression that the "SC2 is dying" concern is coming from no where and it has no foundation in reality, and that the concern by itself is undermining the game, you've got some serious work to do to prove that. Let me say it this way: games that are actually doing good don't have that systemic issue of passionate players raising the concerns about the game "dying". | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
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TheSayo182
Italy243 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:39 LastManProductions wrote: If people keep saying SC2 will die, it will die. Sc2 will not die. I hope it works. | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
 .I don't think it's the best written article of stuchiu ever, but I completely agree with the message of it. We need some new talent in Korea and the lack of tournaments doesn't help. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:39 -Kyo- wrote: debated posting this or not since first part is more of a general statement ;; neway.. People who keep blaming WCS have little understanding of how the current WCS season works - or have bothered to check regionally who is actually able to qualify based on the way the new spot system works. I really don't know what is up with so many people who document or write as a part of the TL community and their poor understanding somehow being elevated to the most popular writers. To the point that there are no new players... there are plenty of korean players who are not on pro teams, and it'd be silly to think otherwise. It's sad that Blizzard doesn't support these current teams, or leagues but it's not really their /job/. If they don't want to do it and it makes all of us mad, which I think it does, then simply don't buy their products anymore. If the game cannot sustain itself to make room for these new players, which exist, then there is only one direction it is going to go. Oh, and as far as me and other players could tell the challenger league placements is like $2k less than it was last year if u get promoted from challenger to premier? some1 check dat for me? I'm not quite sure what exactly it is you're trying to argue. Are you saying that there is a foundation of potentially competitive players in Korea, but that we (or "people who document or write as a part of the TL community and their poor understanding somehow being elevated to the most popular writers.") simply don't see them or know of their existence? The number of rookies breaking into GSL/SSL over the last two years (2014 and 2015, we can even throw in the 2016 seasons thus far for good measure) can probably be counted on two hands. The number of significant players (highly competitive, potentially championship-winning players) that have retired, not so. What stuchiu is arguing is that the push from new players into the competitive scene is almost non-existent. Feel free to try disproving this. I'm eager to see it, because I share stu's viewpoint. | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:56 Zealously wrote: I'm not quite sure what exactly it is you're trying to argue. Are you saying that there is a foundation of potentially competitive players in Korea, but that we (or "people who document or write as a part of the TL community and their poor understanding somehow being elevated to the most popular writers.") simply don't see them or know of their existence? The number of rookies breaking into GSL/SSL over the last two years (2014 and 2015, we can even throw in the 2016 seasons thus far for good measure) can probably be counted on two hands. The number of significant players (highly competitive, potentially championship-winning players) that have retired, not so. What stuchiu is arguing is that the push from new players into the competitive scene is almost non-existent. Feel free to try disproving this. I'm eager to see it, because I share stu's viewpoint. I think that holds for games such as CS as well. All the companies want to sponsor some already good team and the people just below the pro level have to sacrifice many years in their parents basements before they get any chance of reward. The difference is that there are more shady companies, more online tournaments and more fans, so it kinda works for now. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
As much as I disagree with Blizzard for taking other everything with their WCS point system, the real issue is that SC2 isn't the game it once was. It was on the top of the world, beating out FPSs and MOBAs (the same ones it is now behind in E-Sports audiences) because it was an awesome game to play and watch. Today it is a former shell of itself. People had comments during vod night when we watched some of the epic games from WOL that were very revealing, things like "imagine this game with photon/pylon overcharge" and they were right; the game would have been terrible. Those kind of comments are revealing to the direction the game designers have taken the game. And playerbase of SC2 and it's viability as an E-Sport suffers as a direct result of said direction. | ||
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2214 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
In general the game doesn't draw enough attention to support this vast amount of toplevel players regularily. It seems like blizzard is the only lifeline for the competitive scene at this point. | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:30 ZombieFrog wrote: but whatever, blizzard made its choice and this was already discussed when they did. so we do nothing about it and just sit still? | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:44 Djzapz wrote: I think people are saying SC2 is dying because it is. I don't know that you can successfully argue that it goes the other way around. If you're actually under the impression that the "SC2 is dying" concern is coming from no where and it has no foundation in reality, and that the concern by itself is undermining the game, you've got some serious work to do to prove that. Let me say it this way: games that are actually doing good don't have that systemic issue of passionate players raising the concerns about the game "dying". But SC2 has been "dying" since release. Of course, the boy who cried wolf did eventually meet a wolf. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:44 Djzapz wrote: I think people are saying SC2 is dying because it is. I don't know that you can successfully argue that it goes the other way around. If you're actually under the impression that the "SC2 is dying" concern is coming from no where and it has no foundation in reality, and that the concern by itself is undermining the game, you've got some serious work to do to prove that. Let me say it this way: games that are actually doing good don't have that systemic issue of passionate players raising the concerns about the game "dying". Truer words have rarely been spoken. I liked the article, but felt like it did avoid the harsh but factual truth : SC2 is not declining because of the WCS changes, SC2 is not declining because of the lack of new players. These are merely symptoms, but the origin of the problem is elsewhere. It lies within SC2 itself. | ||
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WeddingEpisode
United States356 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:47 TheSayo182 wrote: imho the main problem is the game itself...it is not fun to play and hard to learn I think it's the maps. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On January 21 2016 07:21 Sn0_Man wrote: Nobody noticed that ESPN couldn't even get the term "in sight" right on the twitter card for the article? They should hire TL's editors too | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
I really wanted to give my opinion on it in some kind of feedback but my poor writing skills won't let me -.- I just wanna say that, while I agree with the main point and reasons, I think mentioning the WCS so early in the article set a tone of "blame WCS for this shrinkage", and thus makes it easy for people to immediately get pissed and read the rest of the article trying to find weak points in it or proving it wrong. I believe if everything was said without mentioning WCS until the last minute, like something in the line of "oh, btw, the new WCS rules are kinda worsening this situation", it would have been better to make your point clear. It is also visible the more "professional" tone in your writing. I wonder how many more you have to write until we start seeing cheeky remarks here and there | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 21 2016 07:11 OtherWorld wrote: Truer words have rarely been spoken. I liked the article, but felt like it did avoid the harsh but factual truth : SC2 is not declining because of the WCS changes, SC2 is not declining because of the lack of new players. These are merely symptoms, but the origin of the problem is elsewhere. It lies within SC2 itself. it does not matter how good SC2 is. the entire genre is toast.. its larger than SC2 or Blizzard or even ATVI. ATVI can not stop sociological trends. 13 to 16 year olds are playing Mobile Strike, Clash of Clans, and Boom Beach. Technological improvements have given players options that did not exist in 1999. in 1999 the only way to have your giant army fight another guys painstakingly built giant army was by owning a desktop PC... those days are long since gone. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rMNqpoQ.jpg) As far as people trying to say "perception is reality" when it comes to repeatedly hearing about the decline of SC2. In the english-speaking world SC2 is declining about as fast as Borderlands. No one on the Gearbox site is talking about the decline of Borderlands. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On January 21 2016 07:06 graNite wrote: so we do nothing about it and just sit still? I think there will come a time where the current sc2 system in Korea collapses, all teams disband, blizzard ends support for kr sc2, and then we'll have grassroots organized tournaments (maybe even with their own "patches" and maps). The own patches part may seem far fetched but I could see it happening in the future once official patches stop while the game has serious flaws. It's a form of people taking matters into their own hands (and get rid of tankivacs). | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:47 TheSayo182 wrote: imho the main problem is the game itself...it is not fun to play and hard to learn I mean that has been the Elephant in the room since mid 2011 when the playerbase started declining without the sign of any countermovement. And both expansions failed to leave an impact. And why would they when they didn't do a lot besides adding a few units and making everything that killed noobs even stronger. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/h1nFeL3.jpg) JimmyJRaynor beat me to it with the graphics | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
We're looking into buying ESPN | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Hotshot
Canada184 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:26 Brutaxilos wrote: Maybe it's time to make multiplayer completely free for everyone. It's not like there are very many people left who would only buy LotV for the multiplayer and have not bought it yet. I still play WoL only because that is the only game I have. If lotv multiplayer was free, I would be playing that game, and I am sure so would many others. (Edit: That being said, Wol does not have widdow mines, lurkers, oracles, SH, adept, liberator, etc... So I think it's more of a relaxing game to play) The competition is weird in WoL, ill go from playing an opponent who is about as good as me or better (I am top 8 diamond) to playing someone who does the weirdest things that would never work. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
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sagi
Finland346 Posts
KeSPA draft numbers by year: + Show Spoiler + 2005: 44 2006: 72 2007: 81 2008: 82 2009: 56 2010: 48 2011: 39 2012: 9 2013: 6 To my knowledge there hasn't been official draft after this one, although I've heard talks about them (like some boss saying rookie leagues are incoming in an interview after the PL finals). From 2014 to present, there are less than 5 new players in KeSPA teams and many of those 2012 and 2013 recruits have quit the game. The retirement number given in the article from 2007 on is propably accurate as I have 78 in my document (13 retirements in 2012; 34 in 2013; 19 in 2014; 25 in 2015. Current proleague player pool by birth year: + Show Spoiler + 1988: 3 (these fellows are hitting the army deadline soon) 1990: 1 1991: 3 1992: 12 1993: 4 1994: 12 1995: 10 1996: 8 1997: 4 Unknown: 2 (SpeeD and NaTuRal) Total: 56 in 7 teams. Players in foreign teams by birth year: + Show Spoiler + 1988: 2 1990: 5 1991: 2 1992: 2 1993: 1 1994: 0 1995: 3 1996: 1 Total: 16 (there's propably 5 ot so more I'm no tracking as theres little results) These players are older than the ones in proleague. Most will likely retire during the next few years. Teamless players by birth year: + Show Spoiler + 1982: NesTea 1987: 1 1988: 2 1989: 1 1990: 4 1991: 3 1992: 7 1993: 1 1994: 4 1995: 3 1996: 1 Total: 28 (these are players considered active and or that have played in past years and haven't announced retirement yet) So the total is about 100 players of which those playing in Korean teams is something like 65 (assuming there will be 8th team to replace Prime and SBENU doesn't go down). Annual loss of player capita is 20 at best, even though I predict retirements to increase as the big BW generations retire during the ongoing second half of the decade. The scene will survive 2016, but it might not survive 2017 or 2018. What's the plan when those 30+ 1992-1994 born start to go to the military? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 21 2016 07:46 sagi wrote: The numbers are indeed quite sad. These might be a bit off, but the trends are clearly there. i don't think things are "quite sad". looking closely at my graph the current interest level in January 2016 is about 40% of what it was in March of 2011. its declining slowly. just have fun and play and watch the game. | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
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NonY
8748 Posts
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coolman123123
146 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 21 2016 07:07 FuzzyJAM wrote: But SC2 has been "dying" since release. Of course, the boy who cried wolf did eventually meet a wolf. Besides the BW purists who never liked SC2, it took a couple of years for people to seriously concern themselves with SC2's fate. If memory serves, the beginning of SC2's stagnation in terms of numbers more or less coincided with MOBAs rising to the top. Now more than ever, it feels justified to be concerned with SC2's fate. You can count on one hand the number of months that passed since the release of LotV, and on an average day, SC2 has a third of the viewers of Black Ops3, Darkest Dungeon or Diablo 3 (new season, but it's not not even a spectator game). It has fewer viewers than FIFA16, Blade and Soul, Runescape, and "Creative" - videos of random folks drawing and making stuff. And while all of these things may seem to you like mockery, attacks on the game that you like - rest assured that your game will always have at least a niche of players. But those of us, the less avid fans but the fans nonetheless who like a thriving, high level spectator sport with highlights and fun games and "storylines", 2016 and 2017 seem like a rough patch. I used to be a huge fan of BW, back in the OSL and MSL days - I would wake up at 4AM to watch the finals, I would jump on my chair in excitement. BW is not dead, but it's no where near as dynamic and exciting as it was in those days. Not because the game got worse, but because the community got diluted. I don't doubt the honesty and the enthusiasm of the people who are still watching BW, who still feel the excitement that I felt when I watched it. But surely even they understand that the golden era of that game has passed, and it's turning many of us away, at least in the west. I'll give you this: SC2 is not dying, it's invincible. But the magic is dying, the momentum of the game is dying, and the hype is slowly getting relegated to history, along with the greats of this world like CS 1.6, Quake, Warcraft 3, Painkiller - games which still undoubtedly still have some fans and avid watchers, avid players, but that no one cares to sponsors, and no new players care for. And while I salute the optimism of people who laugh at the notion that SC2 may be getting stuck in a downward spiral, I can't help to feel like you're justifying the status quo, perhaps because of a naïve expectation that if you pretend everything is fine, then it will be. And that's doing more harm than good, because if we keep saying "this is fine and this WCS format is fine", then in 2017 Starcraft 2 will slip below Ocarina of Time too, and these types of games which have a cult following but their relevance to gaming is generally understood to be largely historical. But if you still play, and you still insist that the game is not dead because the bytes are still on your hard drive, and you don't concern yourself with the lower level of play and the diminished level of competition, the quiet community and the muffled hype, then we just have different definitions of what constitutes an e-sport. And that's fine - for you. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 21 2016 08:02 Djzapz wrote: I'll give you this: SC2 is not dying, it's invincible. But the magic is dying, the momentum of the game is dying, and the hype is slowly getting relegated to history, along with the greats of this world like CS 1.6, Quake, Warcraft 3, Painkiller - games which still undoubtedly still have some fans and avid watchers, avid players, but that no one cares to sponsors, and no new players care for. NHL '94 and Tecmo Bowl Football are still magic and still attract new players. You don't know what direction the game will take deep into its old age. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18397 Posts
Shouldn't mainstream media articles be written with more details? | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On January 21 2016 08:02 Djzapz wrote: But surely even they understand that the golden era of that game has passed, and it's turning many of us away, at least in the west. as a fan who still follows BW and jumps in his chair when  Bisu faces  EffOrt in the current Starleague Finals, let me say yes i do get what you mean. Then it's a matter of perspective. The games we see today are not, or not a lot worse quality then let's say 07-08. Of course a big chunk of notable names are missing, but the magic still works for me.Then you can argue, that the games itself are still fine, but that the whole scene is much smaller, that we have no more Pro Teams and no BW on korean Televison. That's true, but is the important point for me that "my game" is Esport #1 ? Personally i'd say no. The only thing that has drastically changed is the foreigner scene really, which is not up to where it once was. But yeah i can understand your sentiment. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On January 21 2016 08:02 Djzapz wrote: Besides the BW purists who never liked SC2, it took a couple of years for people to seriously concern themselves with SC2's fate. If memory serves, the beginning of SC2's stagnation in terms of numbers more or less coincided with MOBAs rising to the top. Now more than ever, it feels justified to be concerned with SC2's fate. Nah. From release, lots of people were pointing to Korean numbers in particular and how awfully it was doing and how nobody showed up to watch games or played it in PC bangs and blahblahblah and saying the game was dead on arrival. Pretty sure there were even TL articles on it as early as 2010. Obviously SC2 is continuing to lose popularity. That was always going to happen, barring something totally unforeseen. In large part, that's just the nature of a continually aging difficult 1v1 game in the current market. But it's still going to be around for the foreseeable future. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 21 2016 08:12 JimmyJRaynor wrote: NHL '94 and Tecmo Bowl Football are still magic and still attract new players. You don't know what direction the game will take deep into its old age. Everything else I said points to the fact that those things are indeed possible but they're not exactly comparable to what the thriving esports are capable of doing. I can still play Chrono Trigger, I still boot up CS 1.6 and play, but it's not the same. And if you enjoy the niche scenes that's fine, I do too, but for me and for many others, you don't beat OSL finals, you don't beat the historic competition and level of dedication that you get during what I called the "golden age" of a game. On January 21 2016 08:30 FuzzyJAM wrote: Nah. From release, lots of people were pointing to Korean numbers in particular and how awfully it was doing and how nobody showed up to watch games or played it in PC bangs and blahblahblah and saying the game was dead on arrival. Pretty sure there were even TL articles on it as early as 2010. Obviously SC2 is continuing to lose popularity. That was always going to happen, barring something totally unforeseen. In large part, that's just the nature of a continually aging difficult 1v1 game in the current market. But it's still going to be around for the foreseeable future. Well, from the start the sales figures looked well. The Korean scene was slow to catch on but it eventually did. I guess the expectations were always too high but the cynicism has been on the rise since the decline is now demonstrably real. | ||
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TJ31
630 Posts
On January 21 2016 08:12 JimmyJRaynor wrote: NHL '94 and Tecmo Bowl Football are still magic and still attract new players. You don't know what direction the game will take deep into its old age. Some older games do attract new players, even these days, even take some consoles series as Final Fantasy maybe. I alway see some new players asking some questions and looking for tactics for those, even though games are over 15-20 years old sometimes. But that's a small minority, it's not enough to make those games "popular" again as they were when they just got released. And it's the same for SC2, even worse actually, because expansions weren't been able to keep interest alive for too long, especially LoTV. And with nothing on the horizon to make a lot of new players interested, it'll keep declining. Blizzard is a big company and WoW still provides decent income, along with HS, to keep the scene alive somehow, as they do for Heroes of the Storm which never was and never will be popular, compared to LoL and Dota 2. But in my opinion that's pretty sad existence, not much better than "ghetto" BW streams on afreeca compared to how great and big BW was in Korea before. | ||
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alexanderzero
United States659 Posts
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geokilla
Canada8230 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 21 2016 08:21 Cele wrote: as a fan who still follows BW and jumps in his chair when Bisu faces EffOrt in the current Starleague Finals, let me say yes i do get what you mean. Then it's a matter of perspective. The games we see today are not, or not a lot worse quality then let's say 07-08. Of course a big chunk of notable names are missing, but the magic still works for me.Then you can argue, that the games itself are still fine, but that the whole scene is much smaller, that we have no more Pro Teams and no BW on korean Televison. That's true, but is the important point for me that "my game" is Esport #1 ? Personally i'd say no. The only thing that has drastically changed is the foreigner scene really, which is not up to where it once was. But yeah i can understand your sentiment. To be honest I could get back into SCBW given some infrastructure. I occasionally turn on streams from TL's streams list. I like that I can open a random game and see amazing stuff. Maginot lines of tanks cutting the map in two, dynamic actions all over the map, rapid expansion... But the streams are laggy, I don't know who's good, I'm not immersed. My friends have moved on to SC2 and have since quit, and good luck convincing them to watch games without english commentary, without clear storylines. It was great being on skype and talking to them about stuff, but now I can't have that. To me, all of those things go against it. It's not about being number 1. I enjoy CSGO even though it's far behind LoL, DOTA2 and Hearthstone. But that's a game which is fun to watch (which I'd argue SC2 is not), it has cool stories, rivalries, the scene is ripe with analysis, I have friends who play CSGO and who know who the players are, the sick plays that have happened. There's a lot to talk about. And that's why BW still works - those people who unlike me still are part of an active community can still make it work, but the appeal is narrower. In no way does this delegitimize the game, though, of course. It's a matter of personal opinion, but one that I strongly believe in, that there is something good and entertaining for the spectator in an effervescent and dynamic, growing competitive game. Pure love of the game is great, but community is not negligible. There are those people who could play chess all day with a couple of friends and be happy, but what if they were in a stadium, with cheering fans who all have a different bias, a different outlook, a different philosophy regarding chess. I think it's great. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 21 2016 08:35 alexanderzero wrote: I've always felt that SC2 will never reach its full potential unless it goes free to play. Being behind a $40 paywall will cause younger gamers to pass it up in a heartbeat, and younger kids are the ones with the time and motivation to get good. Most of the Brood War greats started at a very young age. I don't think that's the problem. I've talked to so many people who all bought the game, who all play some sort of MobA now and it's always the same: The game is too stressful, too hard to learn, too frustrating and doesn't fullfill the expectations of your typical casual player. If you go into a MobA you get what you expect. You kill creeps, you kill heroes, you buy items, you level up and eventually the game concludes. If you go into SC2 you expect big army battles and to run around with units and so on and then you get 4gated 15 times in a row and leave the game forever before you even find out that the reason you don't have units is that you needed to make a special unit that you need to click every 30seconds and the millions of other possibilities to play the game are all noob-traps. | ||
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
On January 21 2016 08:47 Big J wrote: I don't think that's the problem. I've talked to so many people who all bought the game, who all play some sort of MobA now and it's always the same: The game is too stressful, too hard to learn, too frustrating and doesn't fullfill the expectations of your typical casual player. If you go into a MobA you get what you expect. You kill creeps, you kill heroes, you buy items, you level up and eventually the game concludes. If you go into SC2 you expect big army battles and to run around with units and so on and then you get 4gated 15 times in a row and leave the game forever before you even find out that the reason you don't have units is that you needed to make a special unit that you need to click every 30seconds and the millions of other possibilities to play the game are all noob-traps. IMO SC2 is in a spot where it doesnt appeal to any demigraphic. Its trying so hard to appeal to the casual crowd that it alienates a lot of the super serious competitive crowd. (the people who want BW with new graphics). But at the same time its so noob/casual unfriendly, that it will never really be able to get any serious traction with that crowd. Its facing the same problem WoW has been facing for the last 2 expansions...in their quest to cater to casual gamers, hardcore competitive players are being pushed to other games. If you are splitting between two opposite demographics you end up not appealing to either. I love BW, I enjoyed WoL...but have since hated the design direction of the game, which has only proven to me that the design team isnt going in a direction I can appreciate, or am interested in pursuing. In their quest for "casual players just want big explosions!" they have alienated the people who want the spread out, skirmish based game that BW was. Speeding up the early game didnt make any sense as a design decision...you dont force more action in the early stages of the game by making it go quicker. You slow it down so people will be forced to do something productive in the beginning/will have the time/ability to focus on the map, and focus on getting shit done. And I wont even talk about the unit design/flow of current matches. Everyone is sick of MMM...Terrans have been building nothing but marines since WoL... Never understood how design took them to a place where we have the Terran being the ones that mass their cheapest unit, while Zerg has to tech to their highest level stuff to counter it. But I wont go too far down this rabbit hole, will just finish by saying the design decisions have pushed myself as well as any/all of my friends who played away from the game. BW is still appreciated because you watch and go "OMG HOW DO THEY DO IT?!" whereas SC2 is caught in the middle ground where losing is still easy, but winning doesnt look like anything worth appreciating. | ||
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iamkaokao
108 Posts
This game is much more stressing than other profesional esports .. there is just soo much you have to learn.. and you cant never stop because the meta changes every week.. along with the maps and hopes , none can really keep up with this for a long time.. , thats the only reason i think older players retire.. If they want to make the game even more elitest or selective in the pro lvls.. then they have to raise salarys.. , ex TSM csgo just got a new team , and their salary is 9k month , im not sure how much is sc2.. but they probably make 1k - 2k aprox? , which is ridiculous for the amount of work , csgo players barely even practice.. compared to kespa players ,even the best teams in the world like envy and fnatic basically play yolo style and still success...... the dedication needed to keep up in sc2 is abysmally harder i feel.. you have to practice 3 matchups.. and maps change all the time , and the patches change the game too much all the time . I feel sc2 is just like chess or something.. only a small amount of people , like to struggle.. , lets be honest.. rts will never be casual... therefore it will always be small compared to fps and moba , that even kids can understand , also the fact that blizzard doesnt seem to care at all about sc2.. its by far the least important game for blizzard the only positive thing i can say about blizzard atm.. is that they at least keep patching XD | ||
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looknohands119
United States815 Posts
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Caladan
Germany1238 Posts
).It's interesting how the scene changed. For these kinds of articles and posts you'd all be banned in the tl.net 3 years ago. Now it seems a pretty accepted thing to say, that the game and scene is in trouble. That said, the problem is not the scene. The Starcraft scene was and still is one of the most passionate fan bases in any games of all time. And most of all: Considering the (relatively small!) player base, the pro scene is (relatively) still huge! The problem is also not WCS - it is great that there is WCS at all, most games (if you leave out the top 5 games, LoL and Dota 2 are not the average games) don't have that sort of persistant huge company-sponsored tournamens. BW for sure never had such thing. So as the format is always debateable, WCS is still a pro-factor for SC2's activity and attractiveness. So, what remains? The problem is the game itself and nothing less. Imo Blizz had a huge chance with LotV to revitalize the game but unfortunately missed it. And that's how all of my sc2 friends think. In the end, LotV made sc2 an even more progaming/crowd-focused game. But the problem was never progaming, it always was the low active gamer base! So Blizz should have increased accessability and fun, while decreasing the hurdle by making SC2 totally free to play and advertise it as such. Still will always love Starcraft, and as long as there are people playing it, it will never be dead. Looking forward to DreamHack! | ||
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Iodem
United States1173 Posts
On January 21 2016 08:49 Loccstana wrote: The only solution is for blizzard to increase the GSL prizepool to 10 millions dollars Huge prize pools didn't work for Valve/Nexon with DotA 2 in Korea, why should it work with SC2? | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 21 2016 09:09 looknohands119 wrote: I'm typically a BIG supporter of TL's written content but here I can taste the bitterness in my mouth. Its not the standard of logical thought you guys usually hold yourselves to, stuchiu... I'm disappointed in you. Are you under the impression that people who give information should only report on positive things? | ||
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alexanderzero
United States659 Posts
On January 21 2016 08:47 Big J wrote: I don't think that's the problem. I've talked to so many people who all bought the game, who all play some sort of MobA now and it's always the same: The game is too stressful, too hard to learn, too frustrating and doesn't fullfill the expectations of your typical casual player. If you go into a MobA you get what you expect. You kill creeps, you kill heroes, you buy items, you level up and eventually the game concludes. If you go into SC2 you expect big army battles and to run around with units and so on and then you get 4gated 15 times in a row and leave the game forever before you even find out that the reason you don't have units is that you needed to make a special unit that you need to click every 30seconds and the millions of other possibilities to play the game are all noob-traps. Isn't that just more of a reason to make it free? The people we need to tap into are the ones who can enjoy RTS but don't know it yet, and don't want to spend $40 just to try it out. Not to mention with the average person hating on RTS, these people would be discouraged further. If it was free they might just try it anyways. | ||
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GizmoPT
Portugal3040 Posts
i mean the article got some truth to it.. but sc2 stuff is so depressing and that just drives people out. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 21 2016 09:46 alexanderzero wrote: Isn't that just more of a reason to make it free? The people we need to tap into are the ones who can enjoy RTS but don't know it yet, and don't want to spend $40 just to try it out. Not to mention with the average person hating on RTS, these people would be discouraged further. If it was free they might just try it anyways. Well, I'm not going to make blizzard's business decisions. It's still a product meant to make money for the cooperation behind it and if their market research comes to the decision that $40 is the right price I'm not gonna question them, they surely have much more expertice than I do. And you can't make it free right now since that would be a punch in the face of everybody who just bought the game. Also you don't just get players because the game is free if they don't know that they like RTS yet. You still gotta draw them in somehow and with how good players right now are it's probably insanely difficult to catch up just to a very basic level. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On January 21 2016 07:07 FuzzyJAM wrote: But SC2 has been "dying" since release. Of course, the boy who cried wolf did eventually meet a wolf. What? Were you around when the game was released? The hype was unreal, but justified. The game was great. The tournaments were awesome. I used to wake up quite early to catch the GSL. I used to buy tickets to the GSL! Me Mr. Cheapskate buying passes to tournaments because they were so much fun to watch. I used to ladder regularly too. I used to attend and play in local lans. But then people discovered the Infestor, discovered Vortex, basically discovered the late game and how to get their safely and the game went to crap. The late game units were poorly balanced and designed. For instances Brood Lords were too strong, Ultralisks too weak and both were boring. And Blizzard showed a completely inability to make reasonable balance and game design changes to fix that. Then HOTS came out, and Blizzard did the Warhound. They had no idea what they were doing, and still don't. And here we are today. SC2 needs a new designed team. Rather it needed one since 2011. It might be too late. So many other games simply don't have the design problems that SC2 has that make SC2 really frustrating to play. But it didn't used to be like this. It used to be easier to play. And I think the vast majority of people who played WOL would agree, and say that WOL was easier to play than LOTV today. Ironic that the game used to be easier play when Blizzard has been trying to make it easier to play. New design team please. | ||
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Ja.Y.
United States253 Posts
And, ESPN has slowly been creeping into the e-sports market. My wish is that ESPN had been more supportive a few years earlier so that SC2 could have gotten more coverage before LoL became what it is now and GO took off to what it is now. But, the state of SC2 is a depressing and interesting one and the next year will tell how much longer SC in general will actually survive. We don't need a savior, we just need multiple consistent, invested sponsors who are willing to take the risks in old and new players and let them play their passion without any worries. | ||
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Draconicfire
Canada2562 Posts
Regardless cool to see it on ESPN. | ||
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
On January 21 2016 10:04 BronzeKnee wrote: What? Were you around when the game was released? The hype was unreal, but justified. The game was great. The tournaments were awesome. I used to wake up quite early to catch the GSL. I used to buy tickets to the GSL! Me Mr. Cheapskate buying passes to tournaments because they were so much fun to watch. I used to ladder regularly too. I used to attend and play in local lans. But then people discovered the Infestor, discovered Vortex, basically discovered the late game and how to get their safely and the game went to crap. The late game units were poorly balanced and designed. For instances Brood Lords were too strong, Ultralisks too weak and both were boring. And Blizzard showed a completely inability to make reasonable balance and game design changes to fix that. Then HOTS came out, and Blizzard did the Warhound. They had no idea what they were doing, and still don't. And here we are today. SC2 needs a new designed team. Rather it needed one since 2011. It might be too late. So many other games simply don't have the design problems that SC2 has that make SC2 really frustrating to play. But it didn't used to be like this. It used to be easier to play. And I think the vast majority of people who played WOL would agree, and say that WOL was easier to play than LOTV today. Ironic that the game used to be easier play when Blizzard has been trying to make it easier to play. New design team please. This... one thing noone is addressing...but Blizzard essentially released almost the same exact game 3 times in a row... and were sitting in HQ like "hm i wonder why HotS and LotV didnt completely revitalize the scene?" Maybe because HotS and LotV were nothing but campaign expansions, that you tried to market as new games. The core aspects/flow of multiplayer hasnt really changed much at all. You cant pretend LotV is a new game, when its nothing more than an expansion pack with a new campaign and maybe 1-2 new units per race? Like it seemed like Blizzard was looking to rework the multiplayer, and ultimately come up with a new design/direction for the game when they announced "More workers for bigger explosions even sooner!" but then that was where the innovation stopped. There is little to no difference in multiplayer from LotV to WoL... so idk how you expect to revitalize the scene/game with nothing but the next part of the campaign (which for the other WC and SC games... came with the original fucking game). IDK I wish they would have taken more risks and tackled the real issues with LotV and looked to address the serious flaws that have been hurting the game and lead to its decline. LotV is nothing but a paintjob on a beater of a car.. "oh its shiny and new ill come check it out!" until you take it for a spin and,"i remember why i got rid of this car" | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:12 Lunareste wrote: Proud of stuchiu for the recognition, but damn if this isn't a bleak outlook as a first article for ESPN. It's the truth though. Several of these guys are making more on freeca and it's just more appealing. On January 21 2016 10:15 Ja.Y. wrote: I remember reading this article through the ESPN app but didn't realize it was written by stuchiu! :o congrats! And, ESPN has slowly been creeping into the e-sports market. My wish is that ESPN had been more supportive a few years earlier so that SC2 could have gotten more coverage before LoL became what it is now and GO took off to what it is now. But, the state of SC2 is a depressing and interesting one and the next year will tell how much longer SC in general will actually survive. We don't need a savior, we just need multiple consistent, invested sponsors who are willing to take the risks in old and new players and let them play their passion without any worries. That's not happening; the train left the station a long time ago. Time to focus on new releases and learn from the experience. | ||
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20-Minute-Jackal
United States336 Posts
WCS is more like a band aid for the scene, Blizzard fronts the money for tournament prize winnings, and when Koreans lose access to the foreign tournaments, they're actually retiring when they should, instead of artificially being propped up by Blizzard, who have been propping up professional SC2 since 2012. The real problem why the scene is shrinking, is because of a lack of sponsorships. There's not enough outside interest in SC2 to provide the sponsorships to support 8 professional teams in Korea anymore. From a pure business standpoint, why bother? SC2 gets less than stellar views on Twitch, usually coming in around 15th place in popularity. Why should businesses sink money for ad space in SC2? If you're gonna advertise in an e-sport, there's four plainly better options that routinely get far higher views (LoL, Dota 2, CS:GO and Hearthstone). Without sponsorships, we can't have professional teams, without professional teams, we can't have professional players who can stay professional by being salaried. SC2 feels like a house of cards being held together by the artificial economy Blizzard has set up by fronting all of the prize money. That is not the sign of a healthy sport. I feel that if Proleague dies, that's it, pro SC2 in Korea is finished, as for the foreign scene, I don't know how that will survive without Blizzard's charity tournaments desperately trying to keep a ded gaem relevant. | ||
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:43 Circumstance wrote: Not making a comment on the subject, because there will be plenty of threads about completely unrelated subjects to argue about that. What I will say is that Stuchiu is easily the most appropriate person to put up the first SC2 article on ESPN, and Slasher was smart to push this through. Congrats big win for TL and Stuchiu. Hope to see them even get on TV regularly. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19230 Posts
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ErectedZenith
325 Posts
On January 21 2016 11:25 BisuDagger wrote: I have too many mixed feeling about the article itself, so the positive here is congrats to Stuchiu for the article! TL SC2 staff though, what are we doing to keep articles like this on SC2 instead of letting ESPN snipe our writers. Where is our counter opinion piece on the WCS system and where does the SC2 staff stand on this situation? I really hope our SC2 staff releases something that either has the staff come out with one united argument or have two well written opposing arguments. Unless TL admins starts paying people to write for them, ESPN will snipe TL writers. | ||
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munch
Mute City2363 Posts
On January 21 2016 11:39 ErectedZenith wrote: Unless TL admins starts paying people to write for them, ESPN will snipe TL writers. You do realise that writing isn't necessarily exclusive either way? stu has already written articles for several other sites | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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munch
Mute City2363 Posts
On January 21 2016 12:00 lichter wrote: dw guys i dont think they have the ability to pirate me what if they pay you in shoes | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
how can they convince a guy who owns a million shoes with shoes? Now if it was a cloak....... | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
i would agree to 1 bespoke hiro yanagimachi per month or 1 edward green or vass every article depending on workload | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On January 21 2016 12:05 stuchiu wrote: how can they convince a guy who owns a million shoes with shoes? Now if it was a cloak....... mainline lemaire kaftan cloak also acceptable | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19230 Posts
On January 21 2016 12:05 stuchiu wrote: how can they convince a guy who owns a million shoes with shoes? Now if it was a cloak....... Is lichter one of the loan sharks that sonic owed money to?!? This would explain a lot. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
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tokinho
United States792 Posts
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On January 21 2016 12:40 tokinho wrote: FUCK!! I mean seriously fuck!!!!! Its like Tencent could not have asked for more. Way do to more to kill the starcraft scene than anyone else in the entire history of the game. I mean holy fuck this is soooooo bad.................. Fuck....... the first impression most people are going to get of starcraft. Its fucking dying. This could not any worse. Tencent is so proud to have this be the first featured sc2 article. This is probably the worst news I have ever seen and somehow this is featured. It's truth though, good article imo. Good that it get publicity, maybe someone will change something about it. Sad though how the game with THE HIGHEST BY FAR skill cap, the game that STARTED ESPORTS, is barely recognized by the world at large. Not sure what to say about it. The simplicity of other popular games I think has something to do with it. How is the average jane, ever going to truly understand what goes into starcraft without putting time and effort in. Think about trying to explain American football to someone who has never watched it, that's hard (especially if interest is moderate). Now try it with starcraft. Infinitely more rules and strategic depth to explain, whose going to take the time to swallow that pill? Mostly people that already play the game. I think there will always be a scene for sc2, but idk what it would take to get it to the highest levels of appreciation publicly. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On January 21 2016 12:20 BisuDagger wrote: Is lichter one of the loan sharks that sonic owed money to?!? This would explain a lot. he shoulda asked me for advice tbh | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
And who knows if the the apex of SC2 has passed? Get a couple Stephano level foreigners and interest will pick back up. Who knows, | ||
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TelecoM
United States10671 Posts
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
On January 21 2016 13:06 Bagration wrote: The Sc2 is dying talk annoys me. All eSports are mortal IMO, but crying about a decline feels like a 30 year old lamenting his impending death because his prime has passed. And who knows if the the apex of SC2 has passed? Get a couple Stephano level foreigners and interest will pick back up. Who knows, What is true is that whenever a game starts a decline, people start crying and it greatly accelerates therate of death of a game. Once that negative atmosphere is there, nobody wishes to seriously invest themselves in the game, and the content producers and passionate people disappear. I worry for the future of Dota 2 the day that the prize pool is TI_X is lower than the previous iteration. A thing that bothers me about SC2 is people complain about WCS. It's like if WCS2016 was something that Blizzard was obliged to do. Dota 2 has $200,000+ prize pool tournaments on a more than monthly basis, and TI and the Majors are just icing on the cake which Valve does. On the other hand, in SC2, without WCS there would almost be no SC2, and I think it's fair to say that it's artificially being kept alive by Blizzard sponsored tournament, and people keep asking for more prize money, when the viewer figures are so low, that they don't warrant anything of that magnitude, and bleh. I simply wish people were more realistic about the situation of the game, instead of acting entitled and complaining about the game they supposedly liked because it's losing popularity. It's a very disappointing perpetual cycle, and I wish there was an effective way to handle it. | ||
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
On January 21 2016 12:40 tokinho wrote: FUCK!! I mean seriously fuck!!!!! Its like Tencent could not have asked for more. Way do to more to kill the starcraft scene than anyone else in the entire history of the game. I mean holy fuck this is soooooo bad.................. Fuck....... the first impression most people are going to get of starcraft. Its fucking dying. This could not any worse. Tencent is so proud to have this be the first featured sc2 article. This is probably the worst news I have ever seen and somehow this is featured. You shouldnt get mad at a writer for writing the truth and being observant. Be mad at the people/company responsible for the decline of your game's esport status. People have been trying to come up with solutions, suggestions, and fixes since the game was launched, but everytime any/everyone predicted this was a real issue, they would get flamed and even silenced/booted. You cant get mad at people who have been trying to help for years, but were silenced and pushed out of the community. Never understand why SC2 embraced the "lets just stick our heads in the sand and ignore every flaw" stance. People who were predicting this and making suggestions shouldnt have been ignored, but embraced, as they would only give criticism to try to further the game/scene. You dont make suggestions for a game you dont care about...you move on to the next one. Also dont understand people acting what TL/other entities are doing to get their writers back from ESPN lmao... unless you are going to match/oneup every opportunity/offer ESPN or other sites give the writers, expect them to do whatever they can to get their work recognized, and occasionally even get paid. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
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ErectedZenith
325 Posts
Meanwhile, OGN had to look for lifeline in LoL. And to be honest Blizzard didn't even try to emulate BW's success in gameplay (not talking about MBS, UUS, Automine) but in their troop movement and offer more harassment option (which BW fans liked) so ofc the original fans would be turned off. Blizzard could have relied on SC2 being number 1 esport in the west until they completely ceased to innovate the game while DotA 2, CS:GO, and CoD taking over the new esport talent. Now the game is pretty much on Blizzard's life support and to be frank; Hearthstone, Heroes, and Overwatch will make Blizzard more money than SC2 in the long run. | ||
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Dragnor
10 Posts
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NikaLogy
Denmark58 Posts
On January 21 2016 14:44 ErectedZenith wrote: Let's be honest here, Blizzard fucked themselves pretty hard by screwing up their PR trying to sue Kespa/OGN/MBC for broadcasting BW. Meanwhile, OGN had to look for lifeline in LoL. And to be honest Blizzard didn't even try to emulate BW's success in gameplay (not talking about MBS, UUS, Automine) but in their troop movement and offer more harassment option (which BW fans liked) so ofc the original fans would be turned off. Blizzard could have relied on SC2 being number 1 esport in the west until they completely ceased to innovate the game while DotA 2, CS:GO, and CoD taking over the new esport talent. Now the game is pretty much on Blizzard's life support and to be frank; Hearthstone, Heroes, and Overwatch will make Blizzard more money than SC2 in the long run. Blizzard only sued Kespa and OGN because they aggresively tried to claim the sole rights for starcraft in Korea, basically attacking Blizzards copyright. They made a huge mistake and tried stepping on EXTREMELY shaky legal grounds, and they fucked themselves over. Blizzard shouldnt be blamed for protecting their rights to their own game. | ||
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Kaz1
35 Posts
Very well written article, with a lot of insight. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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swissman777
1106 Posts
On January 21 2016 14:23 insitelol wrote: Don't really see any connection with new WCS system and the shrinking of the scene. It's just inevitable. Deal with it. Even with billions of dollars and tournaments this game doesn't attract that much attention to become mainstream. What's happening to korean scene is a natural process. BW infrastructure was huge. SC2 doesn't need it. But people tend to stick to old. Yes, it takes some time to realise the truth. WCS 2016 system is the last thing to blame. Totally overhyped. Peace. Then again, people are asking for serious games again and we might have a surge of interest in rts again. If not, we still like rts games and sc2 is the biggest scene no matter how small it goes, we'll support it. | ||
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Kurbz
Australia88 Posts
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
1) their inability to travel to foreign events that are not global Circuit (for example IEM/Dreamhack and so on) how low-mid level koreans are suffering from that is somthing I don't get. Since when were low-mid level koreans paying loads of money in travel and living expenses to gamble at winning it big? The examples are few. 2) Their inability to change region and play in WCS by living in EU or NA, here also we have few examples of low-mid tier koreans doing this. The only example I have on top of my head is Duckdeok. Jaedong, Polt, Jjakji, MC, Bomber, MMA, True and Dear are all players that did this that are not low-mid tier koreans, most of them were champions in korea Before making the transition. The opportunities for top tier koreans are fewer now, it hurts that scene for sure but since when were it a healthy sign that massive amounts of the korean champions were migrating to other areas? In my mind a better spin on that article would have been how the retirements of these champions and the lack of new budding champions is likely to lead to less viewers and less fans. The scene has lost great players that had Amazing storylines and new players don't get the as many chances to forge similar stories of their own. This will shrink the same and lessen the interest in the game for spectators. Flash retiring is bound to lead to less viewership, if no one steps up to fill his shoes that is a hard blow for the scene but not in the way Stuchiu wrote. | ||
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AWalker9
United Kingdom7229 Posts
On January 21 2016 16:49 Shuffleblade wrote: I don't know about this, I'm unsure if the changes really effect low-mid tier koreans as much as stuchiu makes it sound. If so why does he fail to mention why, the only two changes that are bad for koreans is: 1) their inability to travel to foreign events that are not global Circuit (for example IEM/Dreamhack and so on) how low-mid level koreans are suffering from that is somthing I don't get. Since when were low-mid level koreans paying loads of money in travel and living expenses to gamble at winning it big? The examples are few. 2) Their inability to change region and play in WCS by living in EU or NA, here also we have few examples of low-mid tier koreans doing this. The only example I have on top of my head is Duckdeok. Jaedong, Polt, Jjakji, MC, Bomber, MMA, True and Dear are all players that did this that are not low-mid tier koreans, most of them were champions in korea Before making the transition. The opportunities for top tier koreans are fewer now, it hurts that scene for sure but since when were it a healthy sign that massive amounts of the korean champions were migrating to other areas? In my mind a better spin on that article would have been how the retirements of these champions and the lack of new budding champions is likely to lead to less viewers and less fans. The scene has lost great players that had Amazing storylines and new players don't get the as many chances to forge similar stories of their own. This will shrink the same and lessen the interest in the game for spectators. Flash retiring is bound to lead to less viewership, if no one steps up to fill his shoes that is a hard blow for the scene but not in the way Stuchiu wrote. I really liked the Axiom guys but they were mid-tier and went to foreign events and if the team existed nowerdsys they wouldn't be able to. Armani is an example of another player that's been to a foreign events. HerO and TaeJa made a name for themselves playing in foreign events and now they can't play them. Pigbaby, Terminator, Reality all went to foreign events last year as well. So while top-tier have been going to foreign events there's been got a few mid-low tier going as well. | ||
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munch
Mute City2363 Posts
On January 21 2016 17:23 AWalker9 wrote: I really liked the Axiom guys but they were mid-tier and went to foreign events and if the team existed nowerdsys they wouldn't be able to. Armani is an example of another player that's been to a foreign events. HerO and TaeJa made a name for themselves playing in foreign events and now they can't play them. Pigbaby, Terminator, Reality all went to foreign events last year as well. So while top-tier have been going to foreign events there's been got a few mid-low tier going as well. DeParture and KeeN won at Gfinity Summer events, while First got a silver and MyuNgSiK got top 4; Losira won at Asus ROG while The Tomato One Who Must Not Be Named also did OK; a whole host of people went to various Dreamhacks / IEMs. | ||
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Yiome
China1687 Posts
Oh wait it's an article about SC2 is dying on ESPN... On January 21 2016 06:39 LastManProductions wrote: If people keep saying SC2 will die, it will die. Totally agree to this. This is even more true since the article is on ESPN... Spreading the impression of "ded gam" into wider audience is not the best thing for the longevity of the game. | ||
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EngrishTeacher
Canada1109 Posts
On January 21 2016 18:30 Yiome wrote: Starcraft 2 on ESPN Oh wait it's an article about SC2 is dying on ESPN... Totally agree to this. This is even more true since the article is on ESPN... Spreading the impression of "ded gam" into wider audience is not the best thing for the longevity of the game. Sigh, I guess we have to find that silver lining even within a very bleak prospect for SC2. I Sincerely hope something positive somehow materializes to revitalize the scene. Money is everything in the case of SC2, we desperately need a Sonic (one with good ethics and business practices) in SC2, to bolster the Korean SC2 with a much needed injection of wealth and talent. More Sponsors -> More Talent -> More Money -> More Spongsors rinse and repeat. | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On January 21 2016 18:30 Yiome wrote: Starcraft 2 on ESPN Oh wait it's an article about SC2 is dying on ESPN... Totally agree to this. This is even more true since the article is on ESPN... Spreading the impression of "ded gam" into wider audience is not the best thing for the longevity of the game. I also felt it was a bit sensationalist but I guess that's what journalism is... I'd still argue getting an article (even about the struggles) is better than no article. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On January 21 2016 07:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote: it does not matter how good SC2 is. the entire genre is toast.. its larger than SC2 or Blizzard or even ATVI. ATVI can not stop sociological trends. 13 to 16 year olds are playing Mobile Strike, Clash of Clans, and Boom Beach. Technological improvements have given players options that did not exist in 1999. in 1999 the only way to have your giant army fight another guys painstakingly built giant army was by owning a desktop PC... those days are long since gone. As far as people trying to say "perception is reality" when it comes to repeatedly hearing about the decline of SC2. In the english-speaking world SC2 is declining about as fast as Borderlands. No one on the Gearbox site is talking about the decline of Borderlands. So... To you, a (1) competitive, (2) multiplayer-based game, which (3) was hyped and lionized thanks to its predecessor, (4) had the support of an existing scene and infrastructure, (5) had two expansions to correct mistakes and flaws of the original game, and (6) is the product of one of the biggest studio on the planet declining as fast as a (1) non-competitive (2) singleplayer-based game, which (3) was the start of a new, unknown franchise, (4) had a successor in the franchise (=less interest over time), (5) had no expansions to correct mistakes and flaws of the original game, and (6) is the product of a then-unknown studio, is normal? SC2 declining as fast as Borderlands is normal? A game which is meant, by its very essence, to "never" decline declining as fast as a game which is meant to decline in ~2 or 3 years is normal? | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
With LOTV i think they decided to go the right way, but it might prove to be to late. EDIT: quote fail | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 21 2016 19:17 OtherWorld wrote: So... To you, a (1) competitive, (2) multiplayer-based game, which (3) was hyped and lionized thanks to its predecessor, (4) had the support of an existing scene and infrastructure, (5) had two expansions to correct mistakes and flaws of the original game, and (6) is the product of one of the biggest studio on the planet declining as fast as a (1) non-competitive (2) singleplayer-based game, which (3) was the start of a new, unknown franchise, (4) had a successor in the franchise (=less interest over time), (5) had no expansions to correct mistakes and flaws of the original game, and (6) is the product of a then-unknown studio, is normal? SC2 declining as fast as Borderlands is normal? A game which is meant, by its very essence, to "never" decline declining as fast as a game which is meant to decline in ~2 or 3 years is normal? JimmyJRaynor has the stance that it's impossible for RTS to stay at the top. I heavily disagree with him, but I think he has a point when it comes to Starcraft and RTS games of that kind. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
it penalizes the good players for no other reason that they are good. in the mean time, mediocre, "personality" driven foreigners live comfortably off twitch streams and wcs welfare. blizzard has essentially made sure that the competitive scene for foreigners is as watered down as possible. disgusting in the mean time if you are korean, you are simply not allowed to play starcraft professional on equal footing as someone from another country. a nice big middle finger from blizzard to the country which made starcraft what it was. what a fucking joke absolutely disgusting changes all around and i will personally try to boycott every wcs event which i can. how can you take these events seriously when you know that the best players are purposely kept away from them, simply because they're good? if koreans weren't so good at the game, then there wouldn't be region locking. it's disgustingly simple i almost regret buying LOTV, but i do want to support the RTS scene more than the crappy MOBAs which everyone else seems to like. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
definitely dont like WCS changes, fewer GSLs means fewer events to keep my interest. had been watching GSL from time to time before then, now with the changes plus all the retirements it caused don't really see much to hold my interest | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 21 2016 19:21 Sapphire.lux wrote: There were things like the 3 base eco and units like Colosus and others that were meant to make it easier for new players but the result was that BW fans got alienated in time, and the game wasn't casual enough to attract vast numbers of new fans. With LOTV i think they decided to go the right way, but it might prove to be to late. EDIT: quote fail None of that matters. You don't make an RTS game that can be loved by casuals by introducing certain, cool-looking units, that's not even close to the problem. You gotta deal with much more fundamental problems. - massive amount macromanagement necessary - insanely complex control-tools necessary that are hidden all over the keyboard - core gameplay like combats that very often happen offscreen - BO and timing reliance which makes it impossible to experience even half of the content because you are dying left and right - massive anxiety to go out on the map through fog of war with defensive overcompensation - strategical noob-traps everywhere; the game becomes unwinable if you don't know or cannot manage key units like queens or the MsC - not enough motivation to interact to begin with and then interaction often turns into a slippery slope of snowballing advantages, causing fear of interaction to begin with LotV is just an escalation of what softcore players already cannot deal with. They get more money they can't spend, faster units they can't handle, more ways to fuck up the economy which they don't have the reaction time to prevent and less resources per base which they don't know how to compensate for because they are still scared to leave their main. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On January 21 2016 19:47 Big J wrote: None of that matters. You don't make an RTS game that can be loved by casuals by introducing certain, cool-looking units, that's not even close to the problem. You gotta deal with much more fundamental problems. - massive amount macromanagement necessary - insanely complex control-tools necessary that are hidden all over the keyboard - core gameplay like combats that very often happen offscreen - BO and timing reliance which makes it impossible to experience even half of the content because you are dying left and right - massive anxiety to go out on the map through fog of war with defensive overcompensation - strategical noob-traps everywhere; the game becomes unwinable if you don't know or cannot manage key units like queens or the MsC - not enough motivation to interact to begin with and then interaction often turns into a slippery slope of snowballing advantages, causing fear of interaction to begin with LotV is just an escalation of what softcore players already cannot deal with. They get more money they can't spend, faster units they can't handle, more ways to fuck up the economy which they don't have the reaction time to prevent and less resources per base which they don't know how to compensate for because they are still scared to leave their main. Yes they do matter, a lot actually, just wasn't enough. Instead of expanding 5 times, you could do it just 3 times, and have the resources be enough to do everything you want. Cool units that are easy to control are also a major factor. But like i said, it wasn't enough for most casuals, and it was enough to piss of the existing BW fans. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On January 21 2016 10:04 BronzeKnee wrote: What? Were you around when the game was released? The hype was unreal, but justified. The game was great. The tournaments were awesome. I used to wake up quite early to catch the GSL. I used to buy tickets to the GSL! Me Mr. Cheapskate buying passes to tournaments because they were so much fun to watch. I used to ladder regularly too. I used to attend and play in local lans. But then people discovered the Infestor, discovered Vortex, basically discovered the late game and how to get their safely and the game went to crap. The late game units were poorly balanced and designed. For instances Brood Lords were too strong, Ultralisks too weak and both were boring. And Blizzard showed a completely inability to make reasonable balance and game design changes to fix that. Then HOTS came out, and Blizzard did the Warhound. They had no idea what they were doing, and still don't. And here we are today. SC2 needs a new designed team. Rather it needed one since 2011. It might be too late. So many other games simply don't have the design problems that SC2 has that make SC2 really frustrating to play. But it didn't used to be like this. It used to be easier to play. And I think the vast majority of people who played WOL would agree, and say that WOL was easier to play than LOTV today. Ironic that the game used to be easier play when Blizzard has been trying to make it easier to play. New design team please. Yeah, I was here when the game was released. Were you? WoL was absolutely not a fantastic game at release. It was fun for me, but let's not pretend the 5Rax Reaper to BitByBit Era was a time of great design. It was 2011 (the time you're saying everything went wrong) that really saw the game develop into something worthwhile. On January 21 2016 19:47 Big J wrote: None of that matters. You don't make an RTS game that can be loved by casuals by introducing certain, cool-looking units, that's not even close to the problem. You gotta deal with much more fundamental problems. - massive amount macromanagement necessary - insanely complex control-tools necessary that are hidden all over the keyboard - core gameplay like combats that very often happen offscreen - BO and timing reliance which makes it impossible to experience even half of the content because you are dying left and right - massive anxiety to go out on the map through fog of war with defensive overcompensation - strategical noob-traps everywhere; the game becomes unwinable if you don't know or cannot manage key units like queens or the MsC - not enough motivation to interact to begin with and then interaction often turns into a slippery slope of snowballing advantages, causing fear of interaction to begin with LotV is just an escalation of what softcore players already cannot deal with. They get more money they can't spend, faster units they can't handle, more ways to fuck up the economy which they don't have the reaction time to prevent and less resources per base which they don't know how to compensate for because they are still scared to leave their main. Isn't that mostly just the nature of competitive RTS though? It's going to be really hard to play if it's going to have any room for distinction at the professional level. Maybe some things could be mitigated, sure, but ultimately SC2 is always going to be too difficult for the average player who doesn't want to learn the latest BO or work at 100+APM or play alone. | ||
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stevethemacguy
United States137 Posts
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ErectedZenith
325 Posts
On January 21 2016 15:14 NikaLogy wrote: Blizzard only sued Kespa and OGN because they aggresively tried to claim the sole rights for starcraft in Korea, basically attacking Blizzards copyright. They made a huge mistake and tried stepping on EXTREMELY shaky legal grounds, and they fucked themselves over. Blizzard shouldnt be blamed for protecting their rights to their own game. Which ended up fucking up SC2's success. They should have absolutely laid low. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On January 21 2016 20:01 stevethemacguy wrote: Maybe Blizzard's weird WCS decisions will help BroodWar heat up again...and I'm ok with that :D. I had a blast watching Tastosis cast Effort vs Zero. Now if only some other BW legends could come back to bring some decent competition again. Maybe MC or Flash will join the BW scene..one can dream .MC was never a legend... | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
On January 21 2016 09:06 iamkaokao wrote: Even if the teams were well supported , or sponsored .. the game is really really demanding in terms of skill, practice, stress ... its almost inhuman to keep up at the highest lvl.. and with LOTV this is even more complicated ., which in a casual lvl is awesome.. but profesionally must be painful.. to be in the espectative if the new maps or nerfs will favor or punish your race.. you never know and your career relly on that.. which is completly out of your hands This game is much more stressing than other profesional esports .. there is just soo much you have to learn.. and you cant never stop because the meta changes every week.. along with the maps and hopes , none can really keep up with this for a long time.. , thats the only reason i think older players retire.. If they want to make the game even more elitest or selective in the pro lvls.. then they have to raise salarys.. , ex TSM csgo just got a new team , and their salary is 9k month , im not sure how much is sc2.. but they probably make 1k - 2k aprox? , which is ridiculous for the amount of work , csgo players barely even practice.. compared to kespa players ,even the best teams in the world like envy and fnatic basically play yolo style and still success...... the dedication needed to keep up in sc2 is abysmally harder i feel.. you have to practice 3 matchups.. and maps change all the time , and the patches change the game too much all the time . I feel sc2 is just like chess or something.. only a small amount of people , like to struggle.. , lets be honest.. rts will never be casual... therefore it will always be small compared to fps and moba , that even kids can understand , also the fact that blizzard doesnt seem to care at all about sc2.. its by far the least important game for blizzard the only positive thing i can say about blizzard atm.. is that they at least keep patching XD Lol, saying cs:go needs much less dedication xD. Also saying that envy and fnatic win with yolostyle is laughable : DDD | ||
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Hoofit
United Kingdom128 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:44 Djzapz wrote: I think people are saying SC2 is dying because it is. I don't know that you can successfully argue that it goes the other way around. If you're actually under the impression that the "SC2 is dying" concern is coming from no where and it has no foundation in reality, and that the concern by itself is undermining the game, you've got some serious work to do to prove that. Let me say it this way: games that are actually doing good don't have that systemic issue of passionate players raising the concerns about the game "dying". I dunno Kev. I find it hard to take the 'dying' thing seriously. There have been people saying Sc2 was dying/ 'ded' from when Sc2 was rising to its peak, to its troughs. The phrase did/does seem popular with LoL fans so I find it hard to take it seriously. I'd agree with Sc2 is not as big as it was, or the Korean Sc2 scene is looking less healthy currently, but I guess that is not as catchy as the ded game meme or the slightly more nuances Sc2 is dying. EDIT The argument that people not getting warned/banned despite saying it is a dead game is amazing. It doesn't for how someone puts their argument across nor whether the poster's views were generally in line with opinion. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
Our concern should not be about sc2 living as an esport but sc2 being fun and enjoyable to play as a game. BW became an esport and was so succesful because korean kids were playing SC in PC bangs, not the other way around. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 21 2016 20:00 FuzzyJAM wrote: Isn't that mostly just the nature of competitive RTS though? It's going to be really hard to play if it's going to have any room for distinction at the professional level. Maybe some things could be mitigated, sure, but ultimately SC2 is always going to be too difficult for the average player who doesn't want to learn the latest BO or work at 100+APM or play alone. MobA's basically have taken that step already. You only need to look at one screen and control one unit, and those have a healthy proscene as well. Shooters, you can't even switch view. Most of what you need to be able to do is microing that one dot in front of you so that your shots hit the enemy. Both those genres have a healthy proscene. Just look at 6 pools from life or 2 rax from maru and see that you don't need to spread player attention everywhere to have players outclassing each other. You increase the natural microability of units into the extremes so that every unit interction has the scaling of hellions vs zerglings or banelings vs marines and the question of a reachable skillceiling will never come up, regardless of how easy the game is. | ||
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Agh
United States936 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:45 boxerfred wrote: The current WCS system is shit, lets be honest. Congratulation, stuchiu! WCS is probably the best thing to happen to Sc2, in any iteration. Only bad thing to say about it was that it should have been in place at the start of 2011. Sc2 failed on just about every facet. The inaugural BNet 2.0 was terrible. Completely ignoring custom games and any form of social experience, making ladder the sole focus. When gameplay has so many frustrating and unrewarding components to it, over time players will simply lose interest and motivation to play. LotV was a big step in the right direction, but it is probably too little too late. I'd honestly like to see TL create a poll for the ranking your most preferred expansion. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
Imagine if we had WCS 2 years earlier... | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 21 2016 20:47 Pr0wler wrote: Putting so much effort and money in popularizing the game in Korea was a huge mistake. For some reason Blizzard decided that Korea is somewhat special... Yeah, yeah BW this, KeSPA that. The fact is - Korea is special for BW. For SC2(and many other eSports) - not so much. Imagine if we had WCS 2 years earlier... Indisputably, Korea is special. That is why all the best players have come from Korea. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On January 21 2016 20:47 Pr0wler wrote: Putting so much effort and money in popularizing the game in Korea was a huge mistake. For some reason Blizzard decided that Korea is somewhat special... Yeah, yeah BW this, KeSPA that. The fact is - Korea is special for BW. For SC2(and many other eSports) - not so much. Imagine if we had WCS 2 years earlier... Blizzard kicked all but a handful of Koreans out of NA/EU in 2015, and gave Ro64 nobodies two grand just for qualifying. The result was Lilbow. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 21 2016 20:47 Pr0wler wrote: Putting so much effort and money in popularizing the game in Korea was a huge mistake. For some reason Blizzard decided that Korea is somewhat special... Yeah, yeah BW this, KeSPA that. The fact is - Korea is special for BW. For SC2(and many other eSports) - not so much. Imagine if we had WCS 2 years earlier... You probably missed the first years of SC2 when foreigners actually mattered. EG won bags of money and where is their SC2 team now?! | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On January 21 2016 20:35 Agh wrote: LotV was a big step in the right direction, but it is probably too little too late. It's hilarious to watch people still hyping LoTV while making excuses like that because they have no proof to back up the hype. Accept it already. LoTV didn't change a thing. Viewership has the lowest values since 2010. And these "big changes" everybody was/is talking about have nothing to do with SC2 being unpopular. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
So the scene has actually be starved for talent for a while. Which isn't good when it's a really hard game. I remember someone pointing out back in 2014, I believe, that all of the top Terran then were either BW players or had been playing SC2 since GSL Open Season 1. The implication being there already was a lack of new players (or that Terran was too hard to learn). But, at the end of it all, the really core of the problem is that the entire social & computer gaming landscape has changed since they first started designing SC2, in ways they definitely didn't predict. We forget that the Beta tournaments were cast from replays, as Twitch didn't exist yet. I'm not sure that there was an independent streaming platform yet, when this all started. Between the global rise of Smart Phones, the shift to Free2Play games and the dominance of Social Media, SC2 was designed for a completely different environment. And environment that really wasn't going to have as long of a lifespan as SC:BW. Still, even saying that, I'm fairly sure we'll get at least a WCS 2017. For as much money as Blizzard funds into the eSports side of things, it just acts as their Marketing Budget. That's what finally clicked starting in 2014 for the non-Valve companies. eSports is a brilliant marketing vehicle. And very cheap too. (Relative to the costs of Global Marketing in general.) LOTV sold 1+ million copies on the first day. It'll probably go on to sell ~4 million over its lifespan. 2016's eSports budget probably cost them the sales from 100k copies of the game. It'll help produce more sales than that over the year. So even as the scene is contracting, it's still valuable to Blizzard. Even if it's less so for most of the top Pros. | ||
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jasonbourne907
17 Posts
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On January 21 2016 20:30 Gwavajuice wrote: Why is football (soccer) still so popular? It's not because of Messi or Ronaldo, it's not because the premier league is crazy rich, it's because wherever you go in the world you give 2 kids a ball and they start to kick and play and they love it. Our concern should not be about sc2 living as an esport but sc2 being fun and enjoyable to play as a game. BW became an esport and was so succesful because korean kids were playing SC in PC bangs, not the other way around. Couldn't have said it better. | ||
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
On January 21 2016 08:00 NonY wrote: I'm not so sure that anything about the current state of things concretely predicts a moment when the only players willing to sign up for tournaments are not as good at the game as their predecessors. My prediction is that fans will say the scene is suffering before any noticeable decline in the quality of the games is even observed. I've even read a lot of negative comments from fans about their WCS 2016 experience before they've even lived it. It's pretty nuts. Are the quality of the games actually improving? IMO The skill level of the scene was at the highest during 2014. Other than the LotV visual upgrade, I haven't seen many plays that could compare to the period where TotalBiscuit was supporting Axiom and foreigner Koreans running around everywhere. That year I saw the most improvement in foreign players, while foreigners had a bad showing in the tournaments instead of Scarlett and maybe Snute showing good games vs Koreans 2014 had players like Lilbow, MarineLord, Showtime, Firecake, and Bunny all make huge strides. Ditto, it is the players+game that make the scene. The scene don't make players. | ||
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alukarD
Mexico396 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:18 Ctone23 wrote: Not a big fan of the article personally but it's pretty awesome to see SC2 on a brand's website that I grew up watching every single day. Not once did I ever think ESPN would be covering video games. Truly awesome. Gratz They used to cover MLG Halo games. Like 8 years ago :D golden era. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
Exactly | ||
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
On January 22 2016 00:24 alukarD wrote: They used to cover MLG Halo games. Like 8 years ago :D golden era. Ohh yeah, I vaguely remember that now! I stand corrected, but still awesome to see SC2 on there | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 21 2016 20:18 Hoofit wrote: I dunno Kev. I find it hard to take the 'dying' thing seriously. There have been people saying Sc2 was dying/ 'ded' from when Sc2 was rising to its peak, to its troughs. The phrase did/does seem popular with LoL fans so I find it hard to take it seriously. I'd agree with Sc2 is not as big as it was, or the Korean Sc2 scene is looking less healthy currently, but I guess that is not as catchy as the ded game meme or the slightly more nuances Sc2 is dying. EDIT The argument that people not getting warned/banned despite saying it is a dead game is amazing. It doesn't for how someone puts their argument across nor whether the poster's views were generally in line with opinion. i'd like if we could avoid an emotionally charged word like "dying". Starcraft2 is slowly declining. According to the metrics i've abserved this is a slow decline. I'd say Sc2 is about 50% as popular and is garnering about 50% of the interest it did 5 years ago. In the english speaking world, Starcraft2 is declining at about the same rate as the Borderlands franchise. On the Gearbox site people are happily running around creating new builds yapping about new techniques and tactics... discussing the lateste Gearbox balance patch and boss drop rates. The "slow decline" of Borderlands is very, very occasionally discussed. and, sometimes people get all worked up about it... but not often. if the game were shedding 35% of the player base every month the way Act of Aggression or Grey Goo does then we're talking about something completely different from the "slow decline" i'm proposing. if you'd like to debate whether or not a "slow decline" with SC2 is occurring IN A CONSTRUCTIVE MANNER i'd be happy to share the metrics i have to back up my point. I'd be more than happy to lose the debate and discover that the game i love is growing in popularity and garnering more interest with a growing player base. On January 21 2016 19:17 OtherWorld wrote: A game which is meant, by its very essence, to "never" decline declining as fast as a game which is meant to decline in ~2 or 3 years is normal? Frank Pearce in 2010 is quoted as saying SC2 is a "10 year eSports experiment". We are almost 6 years into it. So the game is more than half-way into its life cycle. Starcraft2 is not Baseball 2.0 Borderlands2 and Borderlands:The PreSequel is still being re-balanced to this day. Work was done on BL1 to make it work with Steam. 5+ years after its release. Borderlands2 had a stream of DLC 2+ years after its release and new playable characters added and substantial modifications get made to their special abilities even very recently. Source: http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/update-coming-to-borderlands-2-on-october-29-2015/819678/3 If Borderlands is pre-engineered to decline don't tell Gearbox. | ||
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StarVe
Germany13591 Posts
Not sure I agree with everything regarding cause and effect of the lack of newcomers but you raise some valid points and I hope some of the ESPN audience also find it worth reading. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
Yep, SC2 gameplay is a shell of what it was in 2011. | ||
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alukarD
Mexico396 Posts
So back in the day, people enjoyed and assisted to underground gigs with actual DJs mixing up the music and really putting up a show where nobody else would ever know but the small amount of people the were actually there. DJing was really a thing back then, and people loved and really enjoyed the result of it, remembering those parties as the best ones they ever had, where it was all about the sounds, the music, the feels, the interaction with the people around them inside that room. Regardless, it was a very smallish scene. Average people just wouldn't appreciate that as an experience they wanted, they couldn't appreciate the art and beauty of it. Now, we got the EDM scene. Electronic festivals are the biggest they ever were, and they keep getting bigger. Everybody has friends that are a DJ, or at least trying to be one. Hardcore old-school-electronic lovers hate the EDM scene, because they focus on everything but the actual music or DJing, that's not what it used to be or it should be (some points they usually tend to argue about). I totally get it. Funny thing is that people also claim that actual house/trance/disco/insert-any-electronic-genre-here is dying. I don't actual think is dying, but when you put that scene against the new EDM 500-times-bigger scene, you can't help but feel that too. So, as someone else pointed out before, I also think that also this really goes around social medias, internet, connection, exposure. This is a social problem (I don't know if problem is the right word): people go/do where/what other people is going/doing. All my friends go to the EDM festival, I want to be there. My friends are playing at gigs and producing their own material, seems pretty easy, I should try it out. More than enjoying being at the festival or being a DJ, they enjoy being around people, being recognized, socializing, and it's cool to be there and do that, and simple to understand: everybody knows the material (songs), everybody know what a DJ is or does (at a high-level), everybody knows what EDM festivals are, so its easy to relate, its easy to appreciate somebody's work, its easy to go watch someone play. Simpler and bigger is what attracts people, and well, eventually turns into a scene. That's why there aren't so many engineers (I got to admit it's getting bigger tho), why people don't visit Alaska, why people don't play the harp,why people don't play Starcraft. A social phenomenon. Well, no real solutions I came up with. But you can get to your own conclusions. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
Somebody at Blizzard is to blame, but it's not the esports dept., it's the designers. Every expansion has made SC2 worse, not better, because they have no idea what to do. Before Starcraft 2, Starcraft (Brood War) was by far the strongest esports community and with good reason. Blizzard tended to that community like a medieval doctor. Today, Starcraft 2 is not even close to being the strongest competitive game community anymore, and with good reason. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5281 Posts
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ivancype
Brazil485 Posts
If you cant pay your pro players enough that they need to participate in online cups, that is why there is no one new to the scene. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On January 21 2016 20:30 Gwavajuice wrote: Why is football (soccer) still so popular? It's not because of Messi or Ronaldo, it's not because the premier league is crazy rich, it's because wherever you go in the world you give 2 kids a ball and they start to kick and play and they love it. Our concern should not be about sc2 living as an esport but sc2 being fun and enjoyable to play as a game. BW became an esport and was so succesful because korean kids were playing SC in PC bangs, not the other way around. The appeal of playing at a PC bang is playing with your friends. MOBA will always be better for playing with your friends than SC2, no matter what changes Blizzard implements. "Oh no we came with 5 people, are we going to play two 1v1s, one of which will take 20 minutes while the other takes 40 minutes, while the fifth guy just sits alone, or... all jump into the same MOBA and play on the same team and bond as we kill the other guys?" Maybe Battle.net sucking ass didn't help in terms of UMS. But that's about all of the blame that can be placed at Blizzard's feet on the issue of SC2 not dominating PC bangs aka the hearts and minds of the next generation. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On January 22 2016 01:39 pure.Wasted wrote: The appeal of playing at a PC bang is playing with your friends. MOBA will always be better for playing with your friends than SC2, no matter what changes Blizzard implements. "Oh no we came with 5 people, are we going to play two 1v1s, one of which will take 20 minutes while the other takes 40 minutes, while the fifth guy just sits alone, or... all jump into the same MOBA and play on the same team and bond as we kill the other guys?" Maybe Battle.net sacking ass didn't help in terms of UMS. But that's about all of the blame that can be placed at Blizzard's feet on the issue of SC2 not dominating PC bangs aka the hearts and minds of the next generation. Wait wait, you've never played 2v2/3v3/4v4 Starcraft before? Never played an FFA? Starcraft is perfectly capable of accommodating a group of friends, that is not the issue. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On January 22 2016 01:45 BaronVonOwn wrote: Wait wait, you've never played 2v2/3v3/4v4 Starcraft before? Never played an FFA? Starcraft is perfectly capable of accommodating a group of friends, that is not the issue. That's the difference. Sc2 can accommodate a group of friends. MOBAs were made from the ground up for a group of friends. SC2 is tennis and MOBA is soccer. | ||
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ErectedZenith
325 Posts
On January 22 2016 01:48 pure.Wasted wrote: That's the difference. Sc2 can accommodate a group of friends. MOBAs were made from the ground up for a group of friends. SC2 is tennis and MOBA is soccer. SC2 was suppose to have an arcade system where the creator of the custom games can sell their product and get monetary compensation while continuously having a ladder for competitive play. But Blizzard didn't implement the pay to play arcade mode which lost casual audience and then they dumbed down the ladder which lost hyper competitive players. Blizzard don't know what they are doing in terms of growing esport. | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
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jtp118
United States137 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:39 LastManProductions wrote: If people keep saying SC2 will die, it will die. The game died in late 2011 / early 2012; very few new pros since then, player base declining, expansions didn't bring players back, etc. Blizz failed with Bnet, failed with social integration, failed with balance (especially in mid-HotS). SC2 still exists but will continue to decline. At this point Halo qualifiers have more viewers than SC2 qualifiers (with 343 throwing less way money at Halo than Blizz is throwing at SC2). | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
On January 22 2016 03:04 jtp118 wrote: The game died in late 2011 / early 2012; very few new pros since then, player base declining, expansions didn't bring players back, etc. Blizz failed with Bnet, failed with social integration, failed with balance (especially in mid-HotS). SC2 still exists but will continue to decline. At this point Halo qualifiers have more viewers than SC2 qualifiers (with 343 throwing less way money at Halo than Blizz is throwing at SC2). What exactly do you mean when you say the game died four years ago? Still today you can play ladder at any time of day and match against someone better than you within minutes. And if you happen to be really good at the game, you'll be flown out to tournaments all year and can play in front of live crowds and win a lot of money. So competitively, it's still doing well. Strategically, there's a ton of stuff to figure out in every matchup and different things to figure out on every map. How to use certain units is still being figured out. And mechanics can always be improved. So gameplay-wise, it's still doing well. For viewers, there are still more games being played than the vast majority of fans even have time to watch. And those games still contain top-notch mechanics and strategy and tactics and new things. I really don't understand how a player of the game or a viewer of tournaments can feel like it's dead right now. We must be thinking of completely different things, especially if it's been dead for four years. How does looking at viewer numbers affect any of these things? Let the people who have to worry about that worry about that and enjoy the game while it's alive, which won't be forever, while it still has plenty to offer. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
The Koreans will be fine cause they will go back to Broodwar, but the foreigners are boned cause they simply dont have the skill or desire to be good at something. The wheel will eventually turn full circle and Broodwar will surpass SC2in players and viewers, until its time to call it a day and play something else entirely. | ||
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madness1
21 Posts
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Shinespark
Chile843 Posts
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 22 2016 03:31 NonY wrote: What exactly do you mean when you say the game died four years ago? Still today you can play ladder at any time of day and match against someone better than you within minutes. And if you happen to be really good at the game, you'll be flown out to tournaments all year and can play in front of live crowds and win a lot of money. So competitively, it's still doing well. Strategically, there's a ton of stuff to figure out in every matchup and different things to figure out on every map. How to use certain units is still being figured out. And mechanics can always be improved. So gameplay-wise, it's still doing well. For viewers, there are still more games being played than the vast majority of fans even have time to watch. And those games still contain top-notch mechanics and strategy and tactics and new things. I really don't understand how a player of the game or a viewer of tournaments can feel like it's dead right now. We must be thinking of completely different things, especially if it's been dead for four years. How does looking at viewer numbers affect any of these things? Let the people who have to worry about that worry about that and enjoy the game while it's alive, which won't be forever, while it still has plenty to offer. Like a lot of terms commonly used online it, dead game, has lost most of it's meaning and is just another buzzword people use to trash games they don't like. I imagin most people using it in this thread didn't like a design decision made by Blizzard at some point and now they want to point their finger and say "Hah should have done the thing I wanted, you didn't and now your game is dead!". I wish human beings were better at live and let live. If you no longer like something let it go, don't hang around like vultures waiting for a oportunity to go "told you so!". | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
Not balancing the game properly and making nothing attractive for casual player is another good reason for the community being not that big anymore (try being 10+ season in master league with no professional ambition in this game, and tell me why you should even log into the game more than few times a week) | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 22 2016 04:50 Ppjack wrote: Constantly shiting on foreign progamers and downgrading any of their achievement will for sure shrink the sc2 pool of competitive players. They know they are not flash but they are shown less respect than korean c-teamers. Not balancing the game properly and making nothing attractive for casual player is another good reason for the community being not that big anymore (try being 10+ season in master league with no professional ambition in this game, and tell me why you should even log into the game more than few times a week) Because you enjoy playing it? It is the reason I do it. Comparativly speaking the foreign pros are not very good. The Koreans are simply better, should we pretend this is not the case to stroke some peoples egos? When I watch Starcraft I want to watch the best but the best are now barred from competing outside of Korea which is why I only watch Korean torunaments. | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 22 2016 04:57 ddayzy wrote: Because you enjoy playing it? It is the reason I do it. Comparativly speaking the foreign pros are not very good. The Koreans are simply better, should we pretend this is not the case to stroke some peoples egos? When I watch Starcraft I want to watch the best but the best are now barred from competing outside of Korea which is why I only watch Korean torunaments. Reasons i could play when i am bored of 1v1 is to play with friends, even if the arcade can be fun it is not at the level it could be in warcraft3, or the team games are not as fun as they were in aok. They could have tried anything incentitive for players to log in, as daily quests for skins, voice pack, whatever i don't know haha As for the korean scene being the only one worth watching, it is like in any sport. There is no way that a sport is growing and healthy if you don't take care of the less performing scenes and the amateur scene, where the future stars come from. And in a general way, having this constant downgrading and posh behaviour will no help professional players outside of Korea to want to keep playing. Recognition is more than half the reason why you invest your time in any competitive sport. Money maybe, but being as good as you can be and getting recognition for it is the essence of competitive play. And they are shown near noone by a lot of people in these forums. | ||
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madness1
21 Posts
On January 22 2016 04:50 Ppjack wrote: Constantly shiting on foreign progamers... That's why... | ||
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jrdeal
United States24 Posts
Even if Blizzard doesn't respond this community will no doubt remain consistent in its player base. It remained consistent through Brood War when we had to build our own ladder system and make our own maps. We may be somewhat suicidal and took a meme too seriously, but this is the tightest knit group of player's you can find. Our night will be darkest before our dawn and I will remain hopeful and prideful. We are Starcraft players, Brood War or Legacy, and that will never die. Edit: For inspiration look at the Melee communities history. They have received zero support from Nintendo and they still persevere. What we do with this community is our choice, and our only option to succeed is look up and keep moving. | ||
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madness1
21 Posts
On January 22 2016 05:11 jrdeal wrote: ...We are Starcraft players, Brood War or Legacy, and that will never die. I would try wc4) | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
People here did not wait for that to happen :/ | ||
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ionONE
Germany605 Posts
On January 22 2016 03:04 jtp118 wrote: The game died in late 2011 / early 2012; very few new pros since then, player base declining, expansions didn't bring players back, etc. Blizz failed with Bnet, failed with social integration, failed with balance (especially in mid-HotS). SC2 still exists but will continue to decline. At this point Halo qualifiers have more viewers than SC2 qualifiers (with 343 throwing less way money at Halo than Blizz is throwing at SC2). This was exactly my observation! Throughout 2011 i was hoping blizzard would start to deliver, but even for example integrating a button to "watch esports" was not possible. Blizzcon that same year was the nail in the coffin, underwhelming new units (showcased on steps of war), no ui improvements ... no direction, well just nothing to look forward. Early 2012 numbers were already in decline ... | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
Blizz Head: Wow that was pretty horrid to have on our biggest stage. How do we fix this Janitor: Give 7 more foreign players a shot at the expense of 7 of the best players? Brizz head: BRILLIANT! GIVE THAT MAN A PROMOTION! | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Then shit on Lilbow but don't be a Nazi. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 22 2016 05:05 Ppjack wrote: Reasons i could play when i am bored of 1v1 is to play with friends, even if the arcade can be fun it is not at the level it could be in warcraft3, or the team games are not as fun as they were in aok. They could have tried anything incentitive for players to log in, as daily quests for skins, voice pack, whatever i don't know haha As for the korean scene being the only one worth watching, it is like in any sport. There is no way that a sport is growing and healthy if you don't take care of the less performing scenes and the amateur scene, where the future stars come from. And in a general way, having this constant downgrading and posh behaviour will no help professional players outside of Korea to want to keep playing. Recognition is more than half the reason why you invest your time in any competitive sport. Money maybe, but being as good as you can be and getting recognition for it is the essence of competitive play. And they are shown near noone by a lot of people in these forums. I don't really need that. I have so many other repsonsibilities I don't have much time to play this days which i probably part of why I never got bored of 1v1. If you have a lot of free time you want to spend on it I guess you might need more then just 1v1. Really? I'm norwegian, I would never dream of watching norwegian football but that's not really having any negative impact on english football which I love to watch. I doubt the Korean scene would crumble if it got more money and more torunaments. The amature scene in korea is impossible to support because Blizzard prefer to hand it out to foreign players. I'm not saying money would solve everything but at least it would make it viable. I would prefer that to handing it out to a worse scene whos main representative could not be assed to train for the years biggest tournament. The new system is more or less a handout by Blizzard to less deserving players. You should get prizes because you are good not because the best players were not allowed to compete. It would be like having a separat Champions League in which only scandinavian and latvian teams could play. I can't imagin it feels good as a competative player knowing you are only winning because people better then you were not allowed to participate. | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:01 ddayzy wrote: I don't really need that. I have so many other repsonsibilities I don't have much time to play this days which i probably part of why I never got bored of 1v1. If you have a lot of free time you want to spend on it I guess you might need more then just 1v1. Really? I'm norwegian, I would never dream of watching norwegian football but that's not really having any negative impact on english football which I love to watch. I doubt the Korean scene would crumble if it got more money and more torunaments. The amature scene in korea is impossible to support because Blizzard prefer to hand it out to foreign players. I'm not saying money would solve everything but at least it would make it viable. I would prefer that to handing it out to a worse scene whos main representative could not be assed to train for the years biggest tournament. The new system is more or less a handout by Blizzard to less deserving players. You should get prizes because you are good not because the best players were not allowed to compete. It would be like having a separat Champions League in which only scandinavian and latvian teams could play. I can't imagin it feels good as a competative player knowing you are only winning because people better then you were not allowed to participate. How can you even write they are less deserving ? Are you part of the "foreigners lazy" complainers? In terms of results they are less deserving, that is why they did not get the trophies. But they are full time professionals. The only reason they are not on the same level as koreans is mainly about practice environment, regular leagues and support they get with good salaries, opportunities and coaching. I am the most hyped for foreigners competing against koreans and upseting them, then only for korean leagues. I can see what Blizzard is trying to achieve by region locking the whole thing. In let's say football, the scandinavian scene is followed as any other league in terms of scouting, then when a player is found to be good he is transfered in a team that can pay him, train him, and profit from his talent. They just join leagues where the money is. Have you heard of teams like Chelsea of PSG almost created from scratch? Money is there, because transfers are allowed. Before the free circulation of players, home leagues were not the same as they are now. This system is not in place with starcraft. If korean was the mainland of starcraft esport with teams that would transfer the very best players from all around the world to make them compete, I would not mind that. The reality is that korean esport is totally autarcic. If you don't give opportunities to foreign professional to make a living out of it and prove themselves in any environment, they will simply quit. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:13 Ppjack wrote: How can you even write they are less deserving ? Are you part of the "foreigners lazy" complainers? In terms of results they are less deserving, that is why they did not get the trophies. But they are full time professionals. The only reason they are not on the same level as koreans is mainly about practice environment, regular leagues and support they get with good salaries, opportunities and coaching. Even if I am the most hyped for foreigners competing and upseting koreans, I can see what Blizzard is trying to achieve by region locking the whole thing. In let's say football, the scandinavian scene is followed as any other league in terms of scouting, then when a player is found to be good he is transfered in a team that can pay him, train him, and profit from his talent. They just join leagues where the money is. Have you heard of teams like Chelsea of PSG almost created from scratch? Money is there, because transfers are allowed. This system is not in place with starcraft. If korean was the mainland of starcraft esport with teams that would transfer the very best players from all around the world to make them compete, I would not mind that. The reality is that korean esport is totally autarcic. If you don't give opportunities to foreign professional to make a living out of it and prove themselves in any environment, they will simply quit. Would you like some starch for your white hood? | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:14 showstealer1829 wrote: Would you like some starch for your white hood? Man I would be as pissed if the only country producing this level of infrastructure for players was Australia. Don't try to make me say something I did not say. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:17 Ppjack wrote: Man I would be as pissed if the only country producing this level of infrastructure for players was Australia. Don't try to make me say something I did not say. I don't have to, you did it yourself | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:18 showstealer1829 wrote: I don't have to, you did it yourself If in your world cheering for your own country or your home team is racist, you must not really enjoy any kind of sport except few matches a year. edit: I just want the foreign players to be able to catch up. And anyway, cheering for someone is the opposite of rational. Just don't judge me on it and don't insult me at the same time... wtf | ||
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KrOeastbound
England59 Posts
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:13 Ppjack wrote: How can you even write they are less deserving ? Because they are not as good, which you yourself is agreeing to in your post. I have no idea how you can find the concept of the best players in a sports being the most deserving controversial. When the only reason you are winning something is because better players are not allowed to compete you did not deserve to win, you were given it. When the promotor of a sport decides to bar the best players from a large number of tournaments and from a large part of a shared prize money pool it's bad. The quality of games in those tournaments drop, the competition is easier and thus those who are allowed to compete are not challenged as much which diminish their growth as a player, it takes away prestige from the winner and the tournament. Not to mention the negative impact it has on the korean scene where players slightly below the top are losing money because they are not allowed to play in tournaments they could win. Next Blizzcon we will have more foreigners at the event who could not be arsed to practice because they still don't stand a chance versus the koreans, even less now that they have close to no chances to test their metal versus them in other torunaments. Prefering insted to practice for the free hand out tournaments Blizzard have deviced exclusivly for them. I have a hard time understand what you are trying to say in the remaining parts of your text. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:20 Ppjack wrote: If in your world cheering for your own country or your home team is racist, you must not really enjoy any kind of sport except few matches a year. edit: I just want the foreign players to be able to catch up. And anyway, cheering for someone is the opposite of rational. Just don't judge me on it and don't insult me at the same time... wtf No supporting your country isn't racist. Supporting a system that excludes a whole country because your country can only beat them 1 time out of 20 is. | ||
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:40 showstealer1829 wrote: No supporting your country isn't racist. Supporting a system that excludes a whole country because your country can only beat them 1 time out of 20 is. So we shouldn't cheer for our favorite player if they happen to be foreigner because they are essentially being "gifted"? I see this "racism" rhetoric popping up a lot recently and quite frankly if you feel that strongly about it, Blizzard is the company to talk to. Blizzard is the one who changed the system, just because I want to see Bunny or Uthermal do really well this year doesn't make me a racist at all and I'm getting sick of that term being thrown around so lightly. | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:46 Ctone23 wrote: So we shouldn't cheer for our favorite player if they happen to be foreigner because they are essentially being "gifted"? I see this "racism" rhetoric popping up a lot recently and quite frankly if you feel that strongly about it, Blizzard is the company to talk to. Blizzard is the one who changed the system, just because I want to see Bunny or Uthermal do really well this year doesn't make me a racist at all and I'm getting sick of that term being thrown around so lightly. There's a difference between cheering for a player a supporting an unfair system that helps said player. I love Bunny and Snute for example, and I'm kinda happy they're gonna do better this year with the new system, but I still can think the system is wrong in some fundamentals and unfair. Do you see the difference? | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:52 Silvana wrote: There's a difference between cheering for a player a supporting an unfair system that helps said player. I love Bunny and Snute for example, and I'm kinda happy they're gonna do better this year with the new system, but I still can think the system is wrong in some fundamentals and unfair. Do you see the difference? The system is believed to be an incentitive for foreigners to go pro. Then few events should be there to mesure the best foreigners with koreans. What do you not like ? I really liked the old WCS system, but it was just not fair that players profiting from it where not helping the foreign scene (barely playing on the ladder, flying to korea to prepare, ...) It was welfare for them since they profit from high training environment and come to foreignland to take the money. Now at least something is done and tried. Don't know if it is going to work, but it is done. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:40 showstealer1829 wrote: No supporting your country isn't racist. Supporting a system that excludes a whole country because your country can only beat them 1 time out of 20 is. whoa... whoa...whoa? i'm racist because i support the WCS 2016? really? | ||
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Footler
United States560 Posts
I still think the region locking is dumb regardless of circumstance but I can see how it could benefit the scene in the long run if it didn't completely screw over the Korean scene. Outside of a few tournaments the most memorable ones have been because of the Korean players. It all just seems so strange. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:58 Ppjack wrote: The system is believed to be an incentitive for foreigners to go pro. Then few events should be there to mesure the best foreigners with koreans. What do you not like ? I really liked the old WCS system, but it was just not fair that players profiting from it where not helping the foreign scene (barely playing on the ladder, flying to korea to prepare, ...) It was welfare for them since they profit from high training environment and come to foreignland to take the money. Now at least something is done and tried. Don't know if it is going to work, but it is done. This is bizzaro-logic, what you are saying makes no sense. The best players winning tournaments is welfare because they are training with the best players whaaaaaa..? The definition of welfare is receiving financial aid from the government or from a private organization because of hardship and need. How on Gods green earth can you make that definition fit with what you jsut said? | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote: whoa... whoa...whoa? i'm racist because i support the WCS 2016? really? Did I stutter? | ||
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DSK
England1110 Posts
This reminds me of a similar thing that happened with the UT2004 community. With the advent of an "easier" gametype, the traditional, more difficult and brutal gametypes were bereft of new players, and eventually the competitive community, even if it was 600 players strong worldwide, died. The problem might not necessarily be the WCS system - it might simply be that the Starcraft gameplay we all know and love might be falling out of popularity with the masses in favour of the streamlined nature of MOBAs - and soon FPSMOBAs like Overwatch and Battleborn. Brood War Afreeca viewership doesn't necessarily support this, however. | ||
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
On January 22 2016 06:52 Silvana wrote: There's a difference between cheering for a player a supporting an unfair system that helps said player. I love Bunny and Snute for example, and I'm kinda happy they're gonna do better this year with the new system, but I still can think the system is wrong in some fundamentals and unfair. Do you see the difference? Then I guess I can sit over here and call it unfair that the Europeans don't have a respective "Kespa" system, with salaries and Televised team matches and team houses. I think there's a flip side to every situation and if you really want to complain, you can find something. So yeah, I see your point, but it doesn't make a fan a racist because they support WCS 2016. I supported WCS 2013 in a time where basically any Korean could come to America, and they did, because frankly I love the game and always will. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
lol, when u put together a better league system let me know and i'll take a look at it. as of now i'm supporting the most entertaining option at my disposal, namely, WCS 2016. have fun claiming i'm racist though moral indignation can allow you to walk around with the feeling you're better than everyone. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote: lol, when u put together a better league system let me know and i'll take a look at it. as of now i'm supporting the most entertaining option at my disposal, namely, WCS 2016. have fun claiming i'm racist though I don't need to claim it. Your support of the system speaks for itself | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:15 Ctone23 wrote: Then I guess I can sit over here and call it unfair that the Europeans don't have a respective "Kespa" system, with salaries and Televised team matches and team houses. I think there's a flip side to every situation and if you really want to complain, you can find something. So yeah, I see your point, but it doesn't make a fan a racist because they support WCS 2016. I supported WCS 2013 in a time where basically any Korean could come to America, and they did, because frankly I love the game and always will. First, Blizzard didn't gift Kespa, infrastructure or televised matches to the Koreans. They built it on their own. So trying to make fairness by demanding Blizzard to gift it to Europeans seems a bit ridiculous to me. And I didn't call you racist! I don't believe people nor Blizzard is being racist. I just responded because you were defending yourself from the racist acusations with arguments that -for me- were wrong. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:10 showstealer1829 wrote: Did I stutter? There's supporting the current WCS system, which I and many others don't do. Then there's being a racist, which he and I don't do(as far as I know). Then there's being an asshole, which I know for sure you've done. All different things. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:24 Silvana wrote: First, Blizzard didn't gift Kespa, infrastructure or televised matches to the Koreans. They built it on their own. So trying to make fairness by demanding Blizzard to gift it to Europeans seems a bit ridiculous to me. And I didn't call you racist! I don't believe people nor Blizzard is being racist. I just responded because you were defending yourself from the racist acusations with arguments that -for me- were wrong. No you didn't. I did, because that's exactly what they are | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:24 NewSunshine wrote: There's supporting the current WCS system, which I and many others don't do. Then there's being a racist, which he and I don't do(as far as I know). Then there's being an asshole, which I know for sure you've done. All different things. You're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:25 showstealer1829 wrote: No you didn't. I did, because that's exactly what they are It's just a word, sometimes misused, but the important thing is that we can keep the discussion going. Although you are being a bit provocative and I can smell a warning coming your way | ||
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iamkaokao
108 Posts
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:03 ddayzy wrote: This is bizzaro-logic, what you are saying makes no sense. The best players winning tournaments is welfare because they are training with the best players whaaaaaa..? The definition of welfare is receiving financial aid from the government or from a private organization because of hardship and need. How on Gods green earth can you make that definition fit with what you jsut said? I used this word by analogy with the welfare-foreigner-wcs term that is used. Don't be so picky. You know I mean that it was unfair since the chances given are not equal given the korean environment being way better for players to practice. When there is no equality of chances, the system is flawed. That is where the state usually comes into play, and try adjusting it by injecting inputs and positive-discrimination in the system. It is what has been done with the current wcs system by blizzard. Private organisations are still chosing their own rules it is up to them. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:01 Footler wrote: Some comments on ESPN and here seem to miss the point of the article. Yes it stated that the region locking screws over Korean players but it isn't necessarily saying the change should be reverted but rather the Korean scene needs something to replace the overseas tournaments to foster growth. If the region lock had been announced alongside some sort of new ESV-esque tournament or various other sources for low-mid tier Koreans to possibly transition and break into the top level then the article would have a bit of a different tone. I still think the region locking is dumb regardless of circumstance but I can see how it could benefit the scene in the long run if it didn't completely screw over the Korean scene. Outside of a few tournaments the most memorable ones have been because of the Korean players. It all just seems so strange. This is exactly on point. There is no compensation for the koreans and everything good in WCS 2016 is for the foreigners. Sad when it was possible to do something for both scenes. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:23 showstealer1829 wrote: I don't need to claim it. Your support of the system speaks for itself i'm an entertainment consumer with a budget of $1,000 a year... if u can do a better job you can take my cash. so far, you offer me no alternative. SC2:LotV and WCS 2016 are my best options so i'm taking them and backing them with my cash. When you have something better.. lemme know. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i'm an entertainment consumer with a budget of $1,000 a year... if u can do a better job you can take my cash. so far, you offer me no alternative. SC2:LotV and WCS 2016 are my best options so i'm taking them and backing them with my cash. When you have something better.. lemme know. Help Take for HSC. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i'm an entertainment consumer with a budget of $1,000 a year... if u can do a better job you can take my cash. so far, you offer me no alternative. SC2:LotV and WCS 2016 are my best options so i'm taking them and backing them with my cash. When you have something better.. lemme know. Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
i like the HSC , however, i want an ongoing league with points and big events similar to Tennis or Auto Racing. WCS 2016 gives me that. | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote: Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant You live in another world i guess. The point is helping the foreign scene to growth and ultimately catch up with the korean scene, so starcraft is sustainable and peren not only in one country but worlwide. Why? More sponsors, more visibility, more sponsors, more money, more spectators. If you want starcraft2 to be a niche game go on with this attitude. You'll have a good time jerking off on korean starcraft with only 10k viewers at 4 in the morning while all your friends will be playing/watching any other game that is sane. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i like the HSC , however, i want an ongoing league with points and big events similar to Tennis or Auto Racing. WCS 2016 gives me that. Perfect, in Tennis you would watch grand slams right? Afreeca/SpotTv are waiting your money! | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:47 sAsImre wrote: This is exactly on point. There is no compensation for the koreans and everything good in WCS 2016 is for the foreigners. Sad when it was possible to do something for both scenes. Yes. Agreed as well. We really need a few Global Events with good prize pool and the SSL back to where it was last year to compensate. Then if Blizzard could held a few extra events similar to the Kespa Cup or give money to TB for a few Shoutcrafts (oh, how I loved this!) then it will help the KR scene. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote: Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:54 Silvana wrote: Yes. Agreed as well. We really need a few Global Events with good prize pool and the SSL back to where it was last year to compensate. Then if Blizzard could held a few extra events similar to the Kespa Cup or give money to TB for a few Shoutcrafts (oh, how I loved this!) then it will help the KR scene. Tons of ideas have been proposed but what KR needs is something for the B teamers/ppl who don't go past ro32 in code S whatever it is. Kespa Cup/Shoutcrafts are really good for the viewer but don't really solve the scene problems. We need more olimoleague type of stuff. Or just a better olimoleague even if it's already an awesome tournament. | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:57 sAsImre wrote: Tons of ideas have been proposed but what KR needs is something for the B teamers/ppl who don't go past ro32 in code S whatever it is. Kespa Cup/Shoutcrafts are really good for the viewer but don't really solve the scene problems. We need more olimoleague type of stuff. Or just a better olimoleague even if it's already an awesome tournament. And what has Blizzard to do with that ? Private companies can invest in those kind of leagues. If they don't, it is just probably not profitable at all or their target-market is too small. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:01 Ppjack wrote: And what has Blizzard to do with that ? Private companies can invest in those kind of leagues. If they don't, it is just probably not profitable at all or their target-market is too small. They're trying to do the exact same thing for the worse side of the competition. And I don't even think the system will do that well, it'll be more a rich gets richer thing with a few newcomers. | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:57 sAsImre wrote: Tons of ideas have been proposed but what KR needs is something for the B teamers/ppl who don't go past ro32 in code S whatever it is. Kespa Cup/Shoutcrafts are really good for the viewer but don't really solve the scene problems. We need more olimoleague type of stuff. Or just a better olimoleague even if it's already an awesome tournament. That would be a dream scenario! I also believe that if Proleague was Bo7 again then the teams would need more practice partners and thus hire more rookies, and give the B-teamers more exposure too. But even Proleague is in a shaky state nowadays :'( | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:01 Ppjack wrote: And what has Blizzard to do with that ? Private companies can invest in those kind of leagues. If they don't, it is just probably not profitable at all or their target-market is too small. You can say the same for the foreign scene. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:02 Silvana wrote: That would be a dream scenario! I also believe that if Proleague was Bo7 again then the teams would need more practice partners and thus hire more rookies, and give the B-teamers more exposure too. But even Proleague is in a shaky state nowadays :'( Bo7 6 teams in LotV would be the best right now but it's not likely at all for PL. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote: Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant its Bizzard's money and they can hand out money any way they see fit. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote: You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
So one IEM, one Dreamhack and one Red Bull (and Blizzcon) for Korean on foreigner action At least | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:45 Ppjack wrote: I used this word by analogy with the welfare-foreigner-wcs term that is used. Don't be so picky. You know I mean that it was unfair since the chances given are not equal given the korean environment being way better for players to practice. When there is no equality of chances, the system is flawed. That is where the state usually comes into play, and try adjusting it by injecting inputs and positive-discrimination in the system. It is what has been done with the current wcs system by blizzard. Private organisations are still chosing their own rules it is up to them. The word is correctly used when applied to foreigners though. Picky? Words have a certain meaning, if your intended meaning is not represented by the word you are using use another one. It should not be a guessing game as to what you mean when you use a word with a set definition. Yes the chances are equal. The only thing you cant reasonably be expected t to get as a foreigner is the same skill level practice partners as koreans have because you have now forbiden them from participating in the foreign scene. Even if you were right, which you are not, your point would be mute since having petter and/or more practice is irrelevant. Starcraft is supose to be a highly competative game. You can't make that claim with a straight face when you are artificially keeping a bunch of lesser players competative by removing their competition. Blizzard is picking winners and losers at this point which should not be their role. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote: The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word It isn't really based on race, it is based on skill and opportunity to get to that skill level. Koreans aren't banned because they are koreans. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:05 Penev wrote: It should be mandatory for the parties that organize the WCS events to at least offer one actual global event. So one IEM, one Dreamhack and one Red Bull (and Blizzcon) for Korean on foreigner action At least Yeah if WCS Global are a thing the system is actually pretty good minus the reduced content in Korea (which is probably not a blizzard decision considering what's going on with the Starleague). However if we got one I'd consider it to be good... | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:07 The_Red_Viper wrote: It isn't really based on race, it is based on skill and opportunity to get to that skill level. Koreans aren't banned because they are koreans. Masa was banned from the DH qualifier rofl. | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:05 Penev wrote: It should be mandatory for the parties that organize the WCS events to at least offer one actual global event. So one IEM, one Dreamhack and one Red Bull (and Blizzcon) for Korean on foreigner action At least That would be so damn sweet | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
Blizzard wants to keep the hype going in Canada despite how crap all the players are. They want to keep Canadians spending lots of money on their games. Blizzard creates a system so Canadians can hold up trophies ... high 5 each other and yell and scream like they are at a hockey game. its all about having fun playing games and Blizzard maximizing profit. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:08 sAsImre wrote: Masa was banned from the DH qualifier rofl. Well that's stupid i agree, but the main idea here should be quite obvious tbh. As i said before, the execution is somewhat questionable in some regards though. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:07 The_Red_Viper wrote: It isn't really based on race, it is based on skill and opportunity to get to that skill level. Koreans aren't banned because they are koreans. If you believe that I have a oceanside property in Arizona to sell you | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:10 The_Red_Viper wrote: Well that's stupid i agree, but the main idea here should be quite obvious tbh. As i said before, the execution is somewhat questionable in some regards though. The execution and idea expressed by blizzard/esl/dh is clear. Nationality matters. Not skill. That's your own interpretation. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote: The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word No that is not the definition of racisme. Please stop trying to shut down discussion with inflamatory retoric, especially when you aren't even using it right. | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:06 ddayzy wrote: The word is correctly used when applied to foreigners though. Picky? Words have a certain meaning, if your intended meaning is not represented by the word you are using use another one. It should not be a guessing game as to what you mean when you use a word with a set definition. Yes the chances are equal. The only thing you cant reasonably be expected t to get as a foreigner is the same skill level practice partners as koreans have because you have now forbiden them from participating in the foreign scene. Even if you were right, which you are not, your point would be mute since having petter and/or more practice is irrelevant. Starcraft is supose to be a highly competative game. You can't make that claim with a straight face when you are artificially keeping a bunch of lesser players competative by removing their competition. Blizzard is picking winners and losers at this point which should not be their role. Totally picky indeed. If you prefer, see the foreign wcs system as special olympics. It is fair and some people are allowed in it some are not. Environemental advantage is the same as physical advantage in this case. The bonus point for you, is that by using this positive-discrimination Blizzard has a chance to widen his audience and market. I don't think they would throw money in it just for the sake of being so gentle and ethical. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote: The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word Korean is not a race. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:14 ddayzy wrote: No that is not the definition of racisme. Please stop trying to shut down discussion with inflamatory retoric, especially when you aren't even using it right. Whatever Klansman, don't shoot the messenger User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:12 sAsImre wrote: The execution and idea expressed by blizzard/esl/dh is clear. Nationality matters. Not skill. That's your own interpretation. Nah i don't agree at all. Polt is a good example. Everybody loves him because he actually tries to be entertaining (speak english, etc) The problem is that most koreans don't do that, foreigners (for obvious reasons do exactly that). In the end it's all about entertainment and not competetive integrity, but that shouldn't be new. It looks racist because in this instant we have a weird situation, ONE country is way better than anyone else. It's even weirder because the viewers in that country don't even care about their players all that much. Calling it racist misses the point entirely. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:14 Ppjack wrote: Totally picky indeed. If you prefer, see the foreign wcs system as special olympics. It is fair and some people are allowed in it some are not. Environemental advantage is the same as physical advantage in this case. The bonus point for you, is that by using this positive-discrimination Blizzard has a chance to widen his audience and market. I don't think they would throw money in it just for the sake of being so gentle and ethical. You were talking about showing foreign players more respect and now you are comparing them to the special olympic? Do you have a another meaning for the word respect as well? Physical advantage? You are not about to sugest that faster runners should be bared from competing in competitions because it is unfair to the slower runners? Positive discrimwhaaaaat.....? You think Blizzard is widening it's audience by offering lower quality Starcraft to their audience? | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:17 showstealer1829 wrote: Whatever Klansman, don't shoot the messenger Allow me to translate your text into english "I'm not worth talking to". | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:23 ddayzy wrote: You were talking about showing foreign players more respect and now you are comparing them to the special olympic? Do you have a another meaning for the word respect as well? Physical advantage? You are not about to sugest that faster runners should be bared from competing in competitions because it is unfair to the slower runners? Positive discrimwhaaaaat.....? You think Blizzard is widening it's audience by offering lower quality Starcraft to their audience? positive-discrimination. no fucking idea how to say that in english, but that is a thing. we will see the audiences of such said low-quality starcraft. i accept happily to be contradicted, that's the point of a forum/debate, but your tone makes me want to kill the next fly passing next to me. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:25 ddayzy wrote: Allow me to translate your text into english "I'm not worth talking to". Allow me to translate your text into english "I can't face the truth so I'll back out of the argument" | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:28 Ppjack wrote: positive-discrimination. no fucking idea how to say that in english, but that is a thing. we will see the audiences of such said low-quality starcraft. i accept happily to be contradicted, that's the point of a forum/debate, but your tone makes me want to kill the next fly passing next to me. Quite frankly I have a hard time understanding what you mean at times and I suspect the language barrier is making what you write sound slightly more silly then it is. You also skip past 90% of my argument without answering it which makes it hard to discuss anything so the frustration is mutal. The best thing to do at that this point is probably to call it a day. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On January 22 2016 07:26 showstealer1829 wrote: You're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant I'm not sure how you project all of that onto me when I haven't said anything, but could you please stop shitting up this thread please? I'm surprised you haven't gotten hit for trolling yet. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:30 showstealer1829 wrote: Allow me to translate your text into english "I can't face the truth so I'll back out of the argument" You are not trying to have a argument, you want to circumvent the argument by calling anyone who disagree with you racist. Which would be offensive if you didn't missuse it in such a obvious and hilarious way, but let's not kid ourselves, we both kno what you are doing... | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: Nah i don't agree at all. Polt is a good example. Everybody loves him because he actually tries to be entertaining (speak english, etc) The problem is that most koreans don't do that, foreigners (for obvious reasons do exactly that). In the end it's all about entertainment and not competetive integrity, but that shouldn't be new. It looks racist because in this instant we have a weird situation, ONE country is way better than anyone else. It's even weirder because the viewers in that country don't even care about their players all that much. Calling it racist misses the point entirely. The only reason Polt is in is because he has a visa. Nothing about being included in the scene (I guess MaSa isn't canadian enough right). If it was based on english skills Solar would be way more legit than Polt. You should stop trying to demonstrate that the ban isn't nationality based when the MaSa case happened. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
Of course they don't know the game like we do, but a lot of their criticism and subjective feeling about the game are justified because SC2 does objectively have some pretty stupid things that do make it a "clickfest", like the arbitrary macro mechanics and lack of a lot of utility function in the UI and control that would make it easier to manage. Also, at the level that most players enter the game, playing speedy far outweighs playing strategically smart, by a ton actually. TBH if these things were gone I think the game would automatically become exactly 120% more awesome, because the sick Korean APM would go into many multipronged unit micro battles which are infinitely more exciting to watch (and also to play) than seeing someones APM being pumped into putting down mules and checking how many drones they have at each expansion. As long as these things exist, the game's community will remain relatively small imo and slowly fizzle out (now that no more expansions are on the horizon anymore), even with a magic skin marketplace and stuff, I don't think it's going to have quite the pull a game like CS:GO or LoL or Dota 2 has (not even nearly), purely because of the gameplay. Although I sure do hope I'm proven wrong. | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
Why is it OK to reinforce nationalism? I personally believe the less nationalist we are the better. I am not saying we souldn't look for people to which we can relate or identify, I'm saying we should try to change the fundamentals for that relation and identification: instead of basing it on nationality or language (things we don't choose when we are born), we should try to base it on more personal things like similar hobbies, attitudes, ways to approach the game, etc. (which we can choose) | ||
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jtp118
United States137 Posts
On January 22 2016 03:31 NonY wrote: What exactly do you mean when you say the game died four years ago? Still today you can play ladder at any time of day and match against someone better than you within minutes. And if you happen to be really good at the game, you'll be flown out to tournaments all year and can play in front of live crowds and win a lot of money. So competitively, it's still doing well. Strategically, there's a ton of stuff to figure out in every matchup and different things to figure out on every map. How to use certain units is still being figured out. And mechanics can always be improved. So gameplay-wise, it's still doing well. For viewers, there are still more games being played than the vast majority of fans even have time to watch. And those games still contain top-notch mechanics and strategy and tactics and new things. I really don't understand how a player of the game or a viewer of tournaments can feel like it's dead right now. We must be thinking of completely different things, especially if it's been dead for four years. How does looking at viewer numbers affect any of these things? Let the people who have to worry about that worry about that and enjoy the game while it's alive, which won't be forever, while it still has plenty to offer. Look, I understand your point ... I think it's just equivocation on the word "dead." I'm a Halo fan, and arguably Halo was "dead" in 2012-2014 but you could still play in tournaments and find competitive games online, so it "wasn't dead," according to your definition ...? Viewer numbers and scene growth are important. What I'm trying to say is that the competitive SC2 scene has been contracting and/or stagnant since 2012. Orgs such as Cloud9 and TSM have not bothered picking up SC2 players because there's no point; EG and Liquid cut their player salaries by 80%. I literally can't remember the last time a new player entered the highest level of the Korean or foreign scenes. SC2 is dead compared to what it was and to what it could have been. The fact that it continues to exist at a steadily declining level (unlike SSBM, LoL, Dota 2, CS:GO, Smite ...) means that perhaps it's comatose rather than "dead." To say that it's doing well competitively doesn't mean much; games like Shadowrun and Halo:CE are still played competitively, with a constantly evolving metagame, by a tiny amount of people ... and yes, very good SC2 players are rewarded financially, though not as much as in 2012. Salaries are lower and prize pools are (overall) lower. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:54 sAsImre wrote: The only reason Polt is in is because he has a visa. Nothing about being included in the scene (I guess MaSa isn't canadian enough right). If it was based on english skills Solar would be way more legit than Polt. You should stop trying to demonstrate that the ban isn't nationality based when the MaSa case happened. It is nationality based because that is the easiest solution to the problem. Not because blizzard is trying to be racist. On January 22 2016 09:08 Silvana wrote: Since we have a few people discussing in good terms here, I'll make this question: Why is it OK to reinforce nationalism? I personally believe the less nationalist we are the better. I am not saying we souldn't look for people to which we can relate or identify, I'm saying we should try to change the fundamentals for that relation and identification: instead of basing it on nationality or language (things we don't choose when we are born), we should try to base it on more personal things like similar hobbies, attitudes, ways to approach the game, etc. (which we can choose) It is "ok" because of the situation we are in. Fact is: 1. Koreans are way better than anyone else because they already have a huge infrastructure in place. 2. Koreans don't try all that hard to be entertaining for people who don't speak their language (you could argue that most korean players don't even try to be entertaining in their own language) 3. Sc2 (any esport/sport) is mostly entertainment Can you see the problem? If people in general (i mean you know that i am not one of those , i just play devil's advocate here) don't like to watch people they don't even understand, there is no competition in the first place. This isn't even about racism, this is about tournaments/teams/korean players never trying to make korean players accessible for the mainstream audience. We on teamliquid are the hardcore audience, we mostly (and that's not even true haha) care for the gameplay, people in general care about personalities first. You need a balance of success and personality in sports to become a "star player" We could have the situation where even the mainstream would care for Zest, herO, Maru, etc. But that's not where we are now. The only logical approach is to have a tournament scene only for foreigners (even though i think it's way too late now most likely). The current execution is still questionable though (removing two starleagues in korea, removing any real international tournaments, etc) | ||
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:44 Djzapz wrote: I think people are saying SC2 is dying because it is. I don't know that you can successfully argue that it goes the other way around. If you're actually under the impression that the "SC2 is dying" concern is coming from no where and it has no foundation in reality, and that the concern by itself is undermining the game, you've got some serious work to do to prove that. Let me say it this way: games that are actually doing good don't have that systemic issue of passionate players raising the concerns about the game "dying". This is true. It has been slowly dying sadly. Each expansion less and less friends come back. LotV I was the only one who even bothered, not even my training partners came. It's not even like people WANT SC2 to die. It's that they are concerned because the game IS dying. On January 21 2016 06:47 TheSayo182 wrote: imho the main problem is the game itself...it is not fun to play and hard to learn I think this is the main problem that needs to be solved if SC2 is going to survive. It needs to become a game that the majority of people who try it will enjoy - how SC1 was. SC2 is a game you need to go extremely hard in to enjoy and even then it is so volatile that many times it don't even feel fun or fair. Blizzard has repaired so many games that had a subpar release and made them amazing games. BW, Frozen Throne, D2's expansion, made it in to new, much more enjoyable games. Even the modern releases which were even worse - D3, Hearthstone. D3 is now a game that many people are going back to every season, and HS is one of the top streamed games after being called too casual and RNG to ever be fun. SC2... with more expansions than any of those games... has devolved if anything. Players steadily going down. Pros leaving. Reputation getting ruined more and more. I do not think they can steer this ship another way without drastic measures. Beta seemed like they were taking drastic measures... then they just gave up before release and gave us this. Blizzard... the company who was known for delaying a game until it was "ready". I wish that was still their motto, because SC2 LotV would have needed a LOT more work before it to actually be "ready". Which, btw, I believe was their intent. Original store page said released March 2016. It would still be in beta right now. They said at beginning of LotV beta its going to be "much longer and bigger than any of their previous ones"... the amount of time in LotV beta was within 30 days of the time in HotS beta... They rushed LotV and this is the result. We should not be surprised the game is not doing well. | ||
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
On January 22 2016 09:17 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is nationality based because that is the easiest solution to the problem. Not because blizzard is trying to be racist. It is "ok" because of the situation we are in. Fact is: 1. Koreans are way better than anyone else because they already have a huge infrastructure in place. 2. Koreans don't try all that hard to be entertaining for people who don't speak their language (you could argue that most korean players don't even try to be entertaining in their own language) 3. Sc2 (any esport/sport) is mostly entertainment People WATCH sports because they want to be entertained. People PLAY sports because they love the competition. Sports scenes are made for the PLAYERS NOT THE AUDIENCE. It is their duty to protect their PLAYERS, protection of them should not be of more importance than increasing viewership. Is this guy serious? And are we seriously not going to address this outrageous comment? | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 22 2016 09:17 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is nationality based because that is the easiest solution to the problem. Not because blizzard is trying to be racist. It is "ok" because of the situation we are in. Fact is: 1. Koreans are way better than anyone else because they already have a huge infrastructure in place. 2. Koreans don't try all that hard to be entertaining for people who don't speak their language (you could argue that most korean players don't even try to be entertaining in their own language) 3. Sc2 (any esport/sport) is mostly entertainment Can you see the problem? If people in general (i mean you know that i am not one of those , i just play devil's advocate here) don't like to watch people they don't even understand, there is no competition in the first place. This isn't even about racism, this is about tournaments/teams/korean players never trying to make korean players accessible for the mainstream audience. We on teamliquid are the hardcore audience, we mostly (and that's not even true haha) care for the gameplay, people in general care about personalities first. You need a balance of success and personality in sports to become a "star player" We could have the situation where even the mainstream would care for Zest, herO, Maru, etc. But that's not where we are now. The only logical approach is to have a tournament scene only for foreigners (even though i think it's way too late now most likely). The current execution is still questionable though (removing two starleagues in korea, removing any real international tournaments, etc) I'd be more comfortable with a solution that wasn't about nationality. I think the old system was pretty good, they could have still split the system with WCS Global and SSL/GSL and 8-8 spots for blizzcon. I guess the problem was ESL giving up on WCS. But blocking out players by nationality is not consistent with my liberal Western values. I'd expect China, Iran or Russia to do solve their issues like that, not an American company. Working and residency criteria, things that are based on qualification and can be achieved by everyone, yes. Birth certificates? No. | ||
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
On January 22 2016 09:45 Penev wrote: He just means it's a nationality. Can we please stop this stupid focusing on that word? Really reads more like "Korean is not a race". Doesn't it?... Ignoring that word is what got this system to where it is now. While African Americans are being killed by cops lets keep ignoring that word. While Michigan poisons Flint lets ignore that word. While Trump incites hate lets ignore that word. Since appeasing racial exclusionary policies works soooooo well.... EDIT: This isn't supporting the notion that supporting the current WCS system is being racist. I don't agree with that sentiment, you can support Trump without being racist but that doesn't make Trump not racist. | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 22 2016 09:45 Penev wrote: He just means it's a nationality. Can we please stop this stupid focusing on that word? I guess not, wow | ||
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scoo2r
Canada90 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 22 2016 09:49 Big J wrote: I'd be more comfortable with a solution that wasn't about nationality. I think the old system was pretty good, they could have still split the system with WCS Global and SSL/GSL and 8-8 spots for blizzcon. I guess the problem was ESL giving up on WCS. But blocking out players by nationality is not consistent with my liberal Western values. I'd expect China, Iran or Russia to do solve their issues like that, not an American company. Working and residency criteria, things that are based on qualification and can be achieved by everyone, yes. Birth certificates? No. It is only about nationality (well the solution is about nationality) because the problem we face is created in a way the current system (ban koreans) kinda works. I would have been happy with the system if wcs would be the same as last year, just fully region locked. We still could enjoy international tournaments (assuming these tournaments aren't a main reason we have the current solution, which probably isn't true though) and foreigners would have their own tournament system. As i said before, we only talk about this right now because korean players, tournaments, etc FAILED to market korean players in an interesting way. It probably wasn't worth it though, would cost too much money. Still, i don't see a good way to all the problems sc2 faces, at the end of the day the game probably isn't popular enough (worldwide AND in korea) | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On January 22 2016 09:17 The_Red_Viper wrote: Can you see the problem? If people in general (i mean you know that i am not one of those , i just play devil's advocate here) don't like to watch people they don't even understand, there is no competition in the first place. This isn't even about racism, this is about tournaments/teams/korean players never trying to make korean players accessible for the mainstream audience. We on teamliquid are the hardcore audience, we mostly (and that's not even true haha) care for the gameplay, people in general care about personalities first. You need a balance of success and personality in sports to become a "star player" You have a very practical approach and my question was very.. "philosophical" ^.^ I understand people have trouble connecting with those that don't speak their language and don't share their culture. But instead of making isolated scenes for each "group", shouldn't we work toward making each other connect via what actually brought us together? I mean, if we were talking about what we should teach kids in school, it would make sense to have separate study plans for every region, due to cultural differences. But we are here because of Starcraft, your nationality and language shouldn't have any little bit of impact on how you enjoy the game. To me, the fact that people gives so much importance to things like language, looks, culture, etc. means that we are not that much interested in Starcraft per se, but the show around it. And by show I don't mean the competition, I mean the players' behaviors outside the game. So what? Do we really care about the game as much as we claim? Or we are here just because of the people on it? Starcraft is a game and thus it's meant to entertain, but I think we lost the balance on this. We are care more about the people playing it than the game itself. It's more a show than a competition. I am not a sports person so you guys tell me: does this happen too in traditional sports? Do Messi or Ronaldo have fans mostly because of their personalities? Or for the way they play football? Edit: I'm derailing the thread so hard lol | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
The first question probably comes down to a lot of factors, the second one is mostly because there is an emotional conncection (even if it makes very little sense because let's be real, nobody really KNOWS the people we cheer for) Becoming a fan is way easier when you can identify with the "star" somehow though. (is he entertaining? does he play for the football team you are a fan of/KT rolster ( ), etc) So yes i absolutely think most people (all people?) watch sports/esports because of the emotional connection, the gameplay is almost irrelevant at some point. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On January 22 2016 10:44 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think this all comes down to fandom itself. Why do we choose someone we cheer for? Why do we keep cheering for him? The first question probably comes down to a lot of factors, the second one is mostly because there is an emotional conncection (even if it makes very little sense because let's be real, nobody really KNOWS the people we cheer for) Becoming a fan is way easier when you can identify with the "star" somehow though. (is he entertaining? does he play for the football team you are a fan of/KT rolster ( ), etc) So yes i absolutely think most people (all people?) watch sports/esports because of the emotional connection, the gameplay is almost irrelevant at some point. I used to be extremely passionate about certain players, so much so that them losing would affect my mood for the rest of the day. These days I couldn't care less who beats who, and because of that I don't feel very invested in anything anymore. Watching the pro scene for me is kind of like an old habit you just can't completely drop for whatever reason. I will say that I do enjoy playing LotV more so than I did the other two expansions. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 22 2016 10:02 MaCRo.gg wrote: Really reads more like "Korean is not a race". Doesn't it?... Ignoring that word is what got this system to where it is now. While African Americans are being killed by cops lets keep ignoring that word. While Michigan poisons Flint lets ignore that word. While Trump incites hate lets ignore that word. Since appeasing racial exclusionary policies works soooooo well.... EDIT: This isn't supporting the notion that supporting the current WCS system is being racist. I don't agree with that sentiment, you can support Trump without being racist but that doesn't make Trump not racist. it is ATVI's and Blizzard's cash. they are creating excitement in parts of the world that will buy their games in the future in proportion with future projected buying patterns. not in proportion with where the best players are. South Korea is not where they generate the most revenue. ATVI and Blizzard are in the business of SELLING VIDEO GAMES... not running leagues... the WCS is just a money loser designed to generate hype for future ATVI games and hype for stuff like that Nova campaign. if someone wants to create this pie-in-the-sky, ideal, super-fair amazing league they can get a tourney license from Blizz and have a blast. the probability of generating a profit is zero so no one will ever do this. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Anyone who tries to act like a conversation-limiting post is in any way a true "cover-all" above this line is a certified inferior being | ||
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Antonidas
United States105 Posts
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
The feeling when waiting for GSL to come on air with the k-pop. Those were the days. And here I thought that was only the beginning, from there it would only get bigger. And look at the scene today. I'm not sure what goes on in Blizz headquarters. If there are in it for the really long run so that when SC3 gets released in 15-20 years the foreign scene will be on par with Korea. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 22 2016 09:31 Doodsmack wrote: Well this wasn't the most positive introduction of SC2 to ESPN lol. IIRC the Blizzcon was on ESPN :-) | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On January 21 2016 06:21 WrathSCII wrote: Nice article, it was an interesting read. But the problem is what will actually be done to save the Korean scene? From what I see, Blizzard seems to aim to downgrade the Korean scene to be in the same level as the international one instead the other way... The problem isn't the WCS System, the problem is the game itself. Its too versatile, sometimes a single unit type or something hidden is enough to surprise and kill the opponent rather then control itself. All the abilities and casts, mechanics that prevent battles in a war game (e.g. forcefields) and some other stuff and mechanics or that they fail to make interesting changes or compositions viable for years (like mech in TvP) . While it is great that all races are completely different in SC2, some things shouldn't be THAT different, since it is never ever possible to balance that out. | ||
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On January 22 2016 18:29 Pr0wler wrote: I can't see how WCS "bans" Koreans from participating. They can participate, but they need a valid visa and to actually live in the region. Nobody stops a korean player to apply for Athlete visa and to move to the USA or China in order to play in the WCS circuit. Nobody is saying "Koreans can't participate". How can you call this racism is beyond me. Simple. Koreans are the best, cause they exercise daily in the most competitive sorroundings. They have their staff there (coach) and other things that make them the best. FORCING them to move to another country or even continent in order to be able to compete takes a lot of opportunities away. And this is something that is in no other sport. As a football player you can participate in the champions league, in the league you play and at the world cup at the same time. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On January 22 2016 19:39 Rollora wrote: Simple. Koreans are the best, cause they exercise daily in the most competitive sorroundings. They have their staff there (coach) and other things that make them the best. FORCING them to move to another country or even continent in order to be able to compete takes a lot of opportunities away. And this is something that is in no other sport. As a football player you can participate in the champions league, in the league you play and at the world cup at the same time. As a football player you are forced to live in Europe in order to participate in the CL. Every region has their own equivalent. In the same way we have WCS Korea - for anyone who lives in Korea and WCS circuit for people that live outside of Korea. So you are saying that forcing me to move to Korea in order to play in their league is different than forcing them to move to China, Honk Kong or Taiwan in order to participate in our league. And that is racism against the Koreans... Interesting. If anything they are still privileged, because in the "World cup" at Blizzcon, they receive 8 spots (for one country) and the rest of the world gets 8. It would be much fairer if we had a region for every continent and each region gets 2 or 3 spots, but SC2 is just too small to support such system. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 22 2016 20:19 Pr0wler wrote: As a football player you are forced to live in Europe in order to participate in the CL. Every region has their own equivalent. In the same way we have WCS Korea - for anyone who lives in Korea and WCS circuit for people that live outside of Korea. So you are saying that forcing me to move to Korea in order to play in their league is different than forcing them to move to China, Honk Kong or Taiwan in order to participate in our league. If anything they are still privileged, because in the "World cup" at Blizzcon, they receive 8 spots (for one country) and the rest of the world gets 8. WCS Korea is open to anyone regardless of residency and citizenship. The only requirement is to be in Korea when you have to play offline. The problem is that events that weren't locked last year - IEM, Dreamhack, whatever - are locked by WCS requirements now. And that's going to be the vast majority of SC2 events this year. The biggest national SC2 scene is locked out of 66%+ events unless they leave behind everything at home and go to another country. Meanwhile, everyone else is allowed to play in 100% of SC2 events as long as they qualify. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On January 22 2016 20:26 Elentos wrote: WCS Korea is open to anyone regardless of residency and citizenship. The only requirement is to be in Korea when you have to play. The problem is that events that weren't locked last year - IEM, Dreamhack, whatever - are locked by WCS requirements now. And that's going to be the vast majority of SC2 events this year. The biggest national SC2 scene is locked out of 66%+ events unless they leave behind everything at home and go to another country. Meanwhile, everyone else is allowed to play in 100% of SC2 events as long as they qualify. ...And as long as they travel to Korea every week. OK. Let me spend 3k euro + 26h of flight time every week. Thats convenient. It doesn't take a lot of opportunities at all... Just my entire life. For the longest time Koreans were allowed to participate in every fucking tournament, while their system is closed for foreigners(not de jure, but de facto). I didn't see you scream "racism"... | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 22 2016 20:45 Pr0wler wrote: For the longest time Koreans were allowed to participate in every fucking tournament, while their system is closed for foreigners(not de jure, but de facto). I didn't see you scream "racism"... I didn't call anything racist. But the fact that many non-Koreans have gone to Korea and played in those leagues even when WCS was already a thing just shows that calling the Korean system "closed" is bullshit. "Koreans were allowed to participate in every tournament"? No more than any other person from any other country on the planet. Or do you think it's more convenient to be a Korean, go to America and play in the old WCS than it is to be a non-Korean, go to Korea and play in GSL? Both would be making sacrifices by giving up the live in their home country for some time. How is one better off than the other? How is that unfair? How is the Korean scene anywhere close to as locked as the WCS? Now, if you are from any country except South Korea, you can go everywhere to play everything in terms of SC2. The vast majority of tournaments are open to you and even convenient since you don't have to become a resident in Europe to play in Dreamhack Leipzig or some shit like that. If you are from South Korea, you're not as lucky, because you also have to spend a few months getting visas and such before you can do anything outside of "your system". | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On January 22 2016 20:45 Pr0wler wrote: ...And as long as they travel to Korea every week. OK. Let me spend 3k euro + 26h of flight time every week. Thats convenient. It doesn't take a lot of opportunities at all... Just my entire life. For the longest time Koreans were allowed to participate in every fucking tournament, while their system is closed for foreigners(not de jure, but de facto). I didn't see you scream "racism"... So Koreans 'only' have to get athlete visa or permanently move to play WCS and you say that's fine. But then you complain about the difficulty of having to play offline in Korea to play GSL/SSL.. Does not compute. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On January 22 2016 21:12 Elentos wrote: I didn't call anything racist. But the fact that many non-Koreans have gone to Korea and played in those leagues even when WCS was already a thing just shows that calling the Korean system "closed" is bullshit. "Koreans were allowed to participate in every tournament"? No more than any other person from any other country on the planet. Or do you think it's more convenient to be a Korean, go to America and play in the old WCS than it is to be a non-Korean, go to Korea and play in GSL? A bullshit statement, de facto and de jure. "Many non-Koreans have gone there". How many exactly ? All of them actually had to live there... So tell me how it is different from the present situation. Most of the European and American tournaments are one weekend long. It's much easier to participate in a weekend long tournament and travel once, than playing in a several months long league and travel every week. On January 22 2016 21:16 Phredxor wrote: So Koreans 'only' have to get athlete visa or permanently move to play WCS and you say that's fine. But then you complain about the difficulty of having to play offline in Korea to play GSL/SSL.. Does not compute. EXACTLY what I'm saying. Now we are on equal footing so no "racism". | ||
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On January 22 2016 20:19 Pr0wler wrote: As a football player you are forced to live in Europe in order to participate in the CL. Every region has their own equivalent. In the same way we have WCS Korea - for anyone who lives in Korea and WCS circuit for people that live outside of Korea. So you are saying that forcing me to move to Korea in order to play in their league is different than forcing them to move to China, Honk Kong or Taiwan in order to participate in our league. And that is racism against the Koreans... Interesting. If anything they are still privileged, because in the "World cup" at Blizzcon, they receive 8 spots (for one country) and the rest of the world gets 8. It would be much fairer if we had a region for every continent and each region gets 2 or 3 spots, but SC2 is just too small to support such system. is it required to live in EU in order to participate in CL and local leagues or is it because you should live close to where your team is doing its training sessions AFAIR David Backham was playing in the US/MLS but during the break he played in Italy no problem. I am just against Koreans not participating in foreign leagues cause when I watch a tournament I want the best players playing. And not see a foreigner victory because of no better player participating. Overall this hurts the niveau of foreigner leagues. But I can also understand that some ppl want to have different leagues and player(skills/styles) for each region. I just won't watch any foreign WCS anymore, what would the point be in watching "B-Class" players or whatever you wanna call it. I only have a limited time I can and want to watch SC2 Tourneys, and in that case I wanna watch the best games possible | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:58 heishe wrote: SC2 competitive is just not fun for most people, hardcore RTS players included. It's easy to get the feeling SC2 players somehow represent the majority of RTS enthusiasts, but if you ever go outside of Starcraft focused communities like TL or the Starcraft subreddit, people will generally say good things about the campaign gameplay variety but otherwise mostly shit on the game as being a clickfest where mindless speed outweighs strategy, which is like 90% of the reason the vast majority of people play RTS games. Of course they don't know the game like we do, but a lot of their criticism and subjective feeling about the game are justified because SC2 does objectively have some pretty stupid things that do make it a "clickfest", like the arbitrary macro mechanics and lack of a lot of utility function in the UI and control that would make it easier to manage. Also, at the level that most players enter the game, playing speedy far outweighs playing strategically smart, by a ton actually. TBH if these things were gone I think the game would automatically become exactly 120% more awesome, because the sick Korean APM would go into many multipronged unit micro battles which are infinitely more exciting to watch (and also to play) than seeing someones APM being pumped into putting down mules and checking how many drones they have at each expansion. As long as these things exist, the game's community will remain relatively small imo and slowly fizzle out (now that no more expansions are on the horizon anymore), even with a magic skin marketplace and stuff, I don't think it's going to have quite the pull a game like CS:GO or LoL or Dota 2 has (not even nearly), purely because of the gameplay. Although I sure do hope I'm proven wrong. Please do provide some examples of where most RTS fans shit on Starcraft. Personally I have played quite a few other RTS over the years and the worst thing I can ever remembered being said about Starcraft 2 was that they did not like it as much as their favorite RTS or they did not like it as much as Broodwar. No other RTS have been close to the sales number Starcraft 2 has, no other RTS has been close to selling well. So the argument that it is not the RTS genre but Starcraft specificly that's unpopular falls flat on it's face. The rest of your post contradicts itself. The parts you want to see removed, correct saturation in each situation, weighing wether or not resources should go to further the economy or army, choosing and building the right tech is the strategic part of the game you claim is lacking. The part you want to see promoted, micro battles, is where click speed is most important. In the lower league it is efficient production that is most important, contrary to what you seem to be implying. | ||
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MrMischelito
347 Posts
On January 22 2016 14:59 sCCrooked wrote: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone who tries to act like a conversation-limiting post is in any way a true "cover-all" above this line is a certified inferior being lol, burn on topic: stuchiu's articles are often hard about dropping a wall of facts (e.g. tournament placings). while it's in some way informative and impressive, it's also quite rocky to read. does stu also write outside of starcraft? I wonder how that would read... | ||
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
On January 22 2016 13:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote: it is ATVI's and Blizzard's cash. they are creating excitement in parts of the world that will buy their games in the future in proportion with future projected buying patterns. not in proportion with where the best players are. South Korea is not where they generate the most revenue. ATVI and Blizzard are in the business of SELLING VIDEO GAMES... not running leagues... the WCS is just a money loser designed to generate hype for future ATVI games and hype for stuff like that Nova campaign. if someone wants to create this pie-in-the-sky, ideal, super-fair amazing league they can get a tourney license from Blizz and have a blast. the probability of generating a profit is zero so no one will ever do this. I think we have a misunderstanding. I'm fine with WCS being what ever it wants it to be. It is Blizzard's money. They can limit or have 0 Koreans for all their events and I couldn't care less. What I do have a problem with is Blizzard giving monetary incentive for all other tournaments to NOT have Koreans in them. I just don't see the increase in Korean scene funding as a justifiable trade-off. If they want to have these "anti-Korean" policies, they should rather have all the WCS money go to a separate welfare tournament for the foreigners like the 2012 WCS. I don't think any of the "pro-Korean" posters on here think Korean scene should be artificially propped up by Blizzard, they just want Koreans to be able attend their tournaments. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 22 2016 16:51 papaz wrote: SC2 e-sports growth or lack of is such a disappointment. I remembered the hype when the game got relesed and GSL announced. We had Fruitdealer, Artosis and Tasteless casting (Artosis even playing). The feeling when waiting for GSL to come on air with the k-pop. Those were the days. And here I thought that was only the beginning, from there it would only get bigger. And look at the scene today. I'm not sure what goes on in Blizz headquarters. If there are in it for the really long run so that when SC3 gets released in 15-20 years the foreign scene will be on par with Korea. the RTS genre is not worth their valuable time. Morhaime, Pearce, et al are too talented to waste their time on a group of people that spends no money. the entire genre is going down. there is nothing BLizzard can do about it. in fact, there is nothing ATVI and EA and Microsoft combined can do about it. its over. consumer tastes changed. Same thing happened with the dot-eating maze game genre. Games like LadyBug and MsPacman were far better than Pacman and it didn't matter. Everyone quit playing because consumer tastes changed. Nothing ever came close to making the cash Pacman did. And, really Pacman is not that great a game and it made 7 billion, but it hit consumers at just the right time. Game Quality is not the final word on the financial success of a game.. and without financial success the entire AAA business model goes away It is interesting watching the genre's #1 heavyweight attempt to deal with shifting consumer tastes. EA and Microsoft have already given up. Blizzard is by far the best company at making RTS games and the abuse they take from their "fans" is hilarious. The threats to David Kim. The insults. These people should fire up a copy of Grey Goo or Act of Aggression. Or maybe play the new F2P online-only Command and Conquer game made by Victory Studios. Or play some Age of Empires Online. Then they'll see how good Blizzard really is. The quality of SC2's game play is irrelevant. The Quality of the WCS Rule Set is irrelevant. Consumers are bored with RTS games. | ||
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desRow
Canada2654 Posts
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esdf
Croatia736 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 22 2016 23:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote: the RTS genre is not worth their valuable time. Morhaime, Pearce, et al are too talented to waste their time on a group of people that spends no money. the entire genre is going down. there is nothing BLizzard can do about it. in fact, there is nothing ATVI and EA and Microsoft combined can do about it. its over. consumer tastes changed. Same thing happened with the dot-eating maze game genre. Games like LadyBug and MsPacman were far better than Pacman and it didn't matter. Everyone quit playing because consumer tastes changed. Nothing ever came close to making the cash Pacman did. And, really Pacman is not that great a game and it made 7 billion, but it hit consumers at just the right time. Game Quality is not the final word on the financial success of a game.. and without financial success the entire AAA business model goes away It is interesting watching the genre's #1 heavyweight attempt to deal with shifting consumer tastes. EA and Microsoft have already given up. Blizzard is by far the best company at making RTS games and the abuse they take from their "fans" is hilarious. The threats to David Kim. The insults. These people should fire up a copy of Grey Goo or Act of Aggression. Or maybe play the new F2P online-only Command and Conquer game made by Victory Studios. Or play some Age of Empires Online. Then they'll see how good Blizzard really is. The quality of SC2's game play is irrelevant. Consumers are bored with RTS games. Microsoft has shifted its focus on the Xbox. EA is a shit company. And they don't seem to be interested in eSports. Grey Goo and AoA were projects that wanted to be shit. Their design-philosphy was "we want to make a game without taking any lessons from other games, in particular we want it to be as far as possible from the successful multiplayer games out there." And hey look, the games were shit. Mission accomplished I guess. (the fact that they didn't have money for good development to begin with didn't help either) Moving on, LotV sold a million copies in 24 hours (not including presales). People out there are eager for RTS games. They just don't want to play a multiplayer that has nothing to do with the way they envision to play strategy games. When most of the players from other successful esports genre's tell you that your game is too hard to be fun - players that have the passion and endurance to become total freaks in their respective games - then everything has been said. From 2010: http://www.pcgamer.com/5-lessons-starcraft-2-could-learn-from-supcom-2/ Imagine if you just had to set your Barracks to producing marines as fast as it could for as long as you had the money - you could take your eyes off of the Barracks and actually take care of that second expansion, finance your end-game push. Sure, some people could do that in their sleep, but some people choose StarCraft over sleep. What about the rest of us? That last sentence tells you exactly where SC2 went wrong. The 95%, the rest of us, that would love to build armies and bases and let them fight, but don't want to micromanage every single little shit in the game so that it just does what you envision it to do. What you need is a big company to produce such a game. Not a shitty half-year development CnC from EA with no support, not a shitty game that tries to recreate 90s-feelings and not an elite game whose expansions cater to making too hard things even harder. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On January 22 2016 23:23 MaCRo.gg wrote: I think we have a misunderstanding. I'm fine with WCS being what ever it wants it to be. It is Blizzard's money. They can limit or have 0 Koreans for all their events and I couldn't care less. What I do have a problem with is Blizzard giving monetary incentive for all other tournaments to NOT have Koreans in them. I just don't see the increase in Korean scene funding as a justifiable trade-off. If they want to have these "anti-Korean" policies, they should rather have all the WCS money go to a separate welfare tournament for the foreigners like the 2012 WCS. I don't think any of the "pro-Korean" posters on here think Korean scene should be artificially propped up by Blizzard, they just want Koreans to be able attend their tournaments. Blizzard was actually willing to pay to increase the Prize Pool for "Global" events. It's the "Circuit" events, which ended up replacing the ESL-run leagues, that would be locked off. The problem is that ESL has pretty much chosen not to take Blizzard up with the IEMs. The only thing they needed was like 25k USD & 4 more flights to qualify. (This is per the public website that Blizzard put up. We don't know the behind the scenes situation.) The reality is that most of the organizers looked at the situation and viewed locking out the Koreans as the "better" course of action. There's a lot of parties involved in this situation. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 23 2016 00:23 Taf the Ghost wrote: Blizzard was actually willing to pay to increase the Prize Pool for "Global" events. It's the "Circuit" events, which ended up replacing the ESL-run leagues, that would be locked off. The problem is that ESL has pretty much chosen not to take Blizzard up with the IEMs. The only thing they needed was like 25k USD & 4 more flights to qualify. (This is per the public website that Blizzard put up. We don't know the behind the scenes situation.) The reality is that most of the organizers looked at the situation and viewed locking out the Koreans as the "better" course of action. There's a lot of parties involved in this situation. Actually it says that Blizzard is willing to up the prize pool for Circuit events from 25k to 50k when requested, but it says nothing about Blizzard contributing to the prize pools for Global events. And since Global events need 50k+ prize pools... well, let's just say there won't be many. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
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ErectedZenith
325 Posts
On January 23 2016 00:29 deacon.frost wrote: The sad thing is, that I think Wolf said in some interview, that SC2 in Korea was on a rise. Right now we have 6.5 team in Proleague, 1 KeSPA cup and 2x2 seasons of leagues. That's pretty bad result for 2016. Yeah, not everything is Blizzard/WCS fault, but still, 2x2 seasons? Damn it, most foreigners will get more time than the best players on the planet! Dude, the man got to say these things to keep his job. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 23 2016 00:21 Big J wrote: Microsoft has shifted its focus on the Xbox. EA is a shit company. And they don't seem to be interested in eSports. Grey Goo and AoA were projects that wanted to be shit. Their design-philosphy was "we want to make a game without taking any lessons from other games, in particular we want it to be as far as possible from the successful multiplayer games out there." And hey look, the games were shit. Mission accomplished I guess. (the fact that they didn't have money for good development to begin with didn't help either) Moving on, LotV sold a million copies in 24 hours (not including presales). People out there are eager for RTS games. They just don't want to play a multiplayer that has nothing to do with the way they envision to play strategy games. When most of the players from other successful esports genre's tell you that your game is too hard to be fun - players that have the passion and endurance to become total freaks in their respective games - then everything has been said. From 2010: http://www.pcgamer.com/5-lessons-starcraft-2-could-learn-from-supcom-2/ Imagine if you just had to set your Barracks to producing marines as fast as it could for as long as you had the money - you could take your eyes off of the Barracks and actually take care of that second expansion, finance your end-game push. Sure, some people could do that in their sleep, but some people choose StarCraft over sleep. What about the rest of us? That last sentence tells you exactly where SC2 went wrong. The 95%, the rest of us, that would love to build armies and bases and let them fight, but don't want to micromanage every single little shit in the game so that it just does what you envision it to do. What you need is a big company to produce such a game. Not a shitty half-year development CnC from EA with no support, not a shitty game that tries to recreate 90s-feelings and not an elite game whose expansions cater to making too hard things even harder. Starcraft 2 is the only successful RTS game in recent years and that is with a long history, a big existing player base and the Blizzard brand and advertisement behind it. There is absolutly nothing out there indicating that people want RTS games, the only thing that is proven by the information you provided was that people wanted a new Starcraft expansion. Thats the only thing the data you present show, When I'm in the mood to play a RTS I'm enjoying every second I spend with Starcraft 2, but it is not often I find myself in that mood this days and that has nothing to do with the game itself. I would argue that the skill needed to do well in Starcraft was it's biggest strenght and not, like you are implying, it's biggest weakness. The main reason I played Starcraft as much as I did at a point in my life and the main reason I still come back to it is because it is so damn hard. There are so many small thing you can improve and work on which I enjoy, you can really go deep and when you execute it well it feels so damn rewarding, and you know that there is not many other out there who could do what you just did. Like Bloodborn I enjoyed it because it was hard, not despite it. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
If Blizzard wants a Hearthstone level success again, then they would need to transform Starcraft into a casual game with drastic cuts in APM requirements, consisting of static macro choices and mostly army management. That might be polarizing for a lot of people. | ||
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
On January 23 2016 00:23 Taf the Ghost wrote: Blizzard was actually willing to pay to increase the Prize Pool for "Global" events. It's the "Circuit" events, which ended up replacing the ESL-run leagues, that would be locked off. The problem is that ESL has pretty much chosen not to take Blizzard up with the IEMs. The only thing they needed was like 25k USD & 4 more flights to qualify. (This is per the public website that Blizzard put up. We don't know the behind the scenes situation.) The reality is that most of the organizers looked at the situation and viewed locking out the Koreans as the "better" course of action. There's a lot of parties involved in this situation. I'm pretty confident that it is the Global events that don't get a increase and the Circuit events that do get a pay increase. I'm pretty sure that Global events need 100k prize pool at least to qualify. Can you source me where it says otherwise? Because I'm sure I'm reading the correct rules... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 23 2016 00:41 ddayzy wrote: Starcraft 2 is the only successful RTS game in recent years and that is with a long history, a big existing player base and the Blizzard brand and advertisement behind it. There is absolutly nothing out there indicating that people want RTS games, the only thing that is proven by the information you provided was that people wanted a new Starcraft expansion. Thats the only thing the data you present show, When I'm in the mood to play a RTS I'm enjoying every second I spend with Starcraft 2, but it is not often I find myself in that mood this days and that has nothing to do with the game itself. I would argue that the skill needed to do well in Starcraft was it's biggest strenght and not, like you are implying, it's biggest weakness. The main reason I played Starcraft as much as I did at a point in my life and the main reason I still come back to it is because it is so damn hard. There are so many small thing you can improve and work on which I enjoy, you can really go deep and when you execute it well it feels so damn rewarding, and you know that there is not many other out there who could do what you just did. Like Bloodborn I enjoyed it because it was hard, not despite it. Strategy games without a focus on the mechanic aspect from mobile games to Civilization 5 (sold as much as Wings of Liberty!) are hugely popular. Age of Empires 2 has gotten support and expansions in 2015, because the game is still rolling fueled by the insane RTS-game vacuum that is going on at the moment. Desert Strike and Nexus Wars, two RTS-esque games that plainly take the mechanical skill out of SC2 probably surpass regular SC2 in popularity. DotA, a game that took WC3 and removed the macro parts of it and just focused on the one thing everybody loved about the muliplayer, the unit combats with the hero focus, eventually surpassed WC3 in popularity. In general the notion that RTS games need to be hard so that people love them goes against everything we know about games. Games aren't fun because they are hard. If a game is worth being an esport it's going to be hard because the competition makes it hard anyways. Even fucking hearthstone is an esport. | ||
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KrOeastbound
England59 Posts
On January 23 2016 00:21 Big J wrote: Microsoft has shifted its focus on the Xbox. EA is a shit company. And they don't seem to be interested in eSports. Grey Goo and AoA were projects that wanted to be shit. Their design-philosphy was "we want to make a game without taking any lessons from other games, in particular we want it to be as far as possible from the successful multiplayer games out there." And hey look, the games were shit. Mission accomplished I guess. (the fact that they didn't have money for good development to begin with didn't help either) Moving on, LotV sold a million copies in 24 hours (not including presales). People out there are eager for RTS games. They just don't want to play a multiplayer that has nothing to do with the way they envision to play strategy games. When most of the players from other successful esports genre's tell you that your game is too hard to be fun - players that have the passion and endurance to become total freaks in their respective games - then everything has been said. From 2010: http://www.pcgamer.com/5-lessons-starcraft-2-could-learn-from-supcom-2/ Imagine if you just had to set your Barracks to producing marines as fast as it could for as long as you had the money - you could take your eyes off of the Barracks and actually take care of that second expansion, finance your end-game push. Sure, some people could do that in their sleep, but some people choose StarCraft over sleep. What about the rest of us? That last sentence tells you exactly where SC2 went wrong. The 95%, the rest of us, that would love to build armies and bases and let them fight, but don't want to micromanage every single little shit in the game so that it just does what you envision it to do. What you need is a big company to produce such a game. Not a shitty half-year development CnC from EA with no support, not a shitty game that tries to recreate 90s-feelings and not an elite game whose expansions cater to making too hard things even harder. I agree with some of your points. The indie scene regarding RTS has not been doing the genre justice and also Blizz has in some regards done a fairly bad job in continued development of Sc2. I am not saying Sc2 should be up there with LoL or CS:GO in terms of popularity, but fuck man, it should doing better than what it has over the last three or so years. As good as Blizz have been for the RTS genre in the past I really would like to see Valve try and develop an RTS. I just feel like they are a better right now for competitive games where as Blizz seem to be completely lop sided on casual pandering: WoW, Hearthstone, Heroes etc and Sc2 just doesn't really fit in with what they are about. Failing that it will be a wait for some indie developers to reinvigorate the genre. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 23 2016 00:21 Big J wrote: Microsoft has shifted its focus on the Xbox. MS shifts its focus towards long term profit. MS saw Ensemble's games were good but not making enough money. Ensemble was closed for money reasons. how is Age of Empires Online doing? On January 23 2016 00:21 Big J wrote: EA is a shit company. Black and Morten are from EA.. lots of talent there. EA makes a ton of revenue selling video games. EA is all about money. When they turn your back on your genre and stick with pumping out NHL games you know what few your genre's consumers spend ZERO cash. EA knows that the NHL series long term prospects are better than the RTS genre. As a result, EA Canada exists... Victory Games does not exist. How many people do you know that bought NHL '16 ? On January 23 2016 00:21 Big J wrote: Grey Goo and AoA were projects that wanted to be shit. they had a small budget because no one wants to invest in the genre because even Blizzard is making fuck-all from the genre. On January 23 2016 00:21 Big J wrote: Moving on, LotV sold a million copies in 24 hours (not including presales). People out there are eager for RTS games. a million copies for a game that is not even full box price. with 30 missions countless new features. 1 million copies is not enough to support a AAA level game. Sigaty announced nothing coming out of Blizz will compete in the SC2 space of at least 10 years. Blizzard has already abandoned the prospect of developing a new AAA level RTS game. Everyone is gone. Blizzard, MS, and EA are all gone. you can point fingers at everyone else though but a 1 line explanation is all that is required. Consumers are bored with the RTS Genre. People labelling the vast majority of RTS games coming out in the past 8 years as lousy is a symptom of the boredom. Developers are busy making fun games that make money and don't care about us. I do not blame them one bit. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 23 2016 00:56 KrOeastbound wrote: I agree with some of your points. The indie scene regarding RTS has not been doing the genre justice and also Blizz has in some regards done a fairly bad job in continued development of Sc2. I am not saying Sc2 should be up there with LoL or CS:GO in terms of popularity, but fuck man, it should doing better than what it has over the last three or so years. As good as Blizz have been for the RTS genre in the past I really would like to see Valve try and develop an RTS. I just feel like they are a better right now for competitive games where as Blizz seem to be completely lop sided on casual pandering: WoW, Hearthstone, Heroes etc and Sc2 just doesn't really fit in with what they are about. Failing that it will be a wait for some indie developers to reinvigorate the genre. As far as I know the problem with indie RTS games is that there is no engine you can develop it on. Blizzard is probably the only company that has an engine worth of a modern times RTS games and they are not giving it away. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On January 22 2016 14:59 sCCrooked wrote: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone who tries to act like a conversation-limiting post is in any way a true "cover-all" above this line is a certified inferior being So far, the conversation has been discontinued, so it seems limiting the conversation is valid. After all, what are mod warnings for? | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On January 23 2016 01:05 Big J wrote: As far as I know the problem with indie RTS games is that there is no engine you can develop it on. Blizzard is probably the only company that has an engine worth of a modern times RTS games and they are not giving it away. This is so not true. Any major engine could easily support a RTS, from their view and style of netcode they have very few technical requirements from an engine POV. UE4 even comes with some sample projects that are very similar to RTS,and both UE4 and Unity have many assets dedicated to RTS. RTS's simply declined in popularity since mobas became popular. We seen a lot of evolution in the moba-style game genre over the years. RTS's have not evolved with the times. Partly because the community is so damn elitist they think every part of the design has to be as complex and "hard to play" as possible, not realizing that "hard to play" != a top tournament game. The best tournament games are easy to pick up, intuitive to play, fun to play while learning, and a high skill cap so hard to master. RTS's in their current design are hard to pick up, not very intuitive unless you played one seriously in the past, frustrating to learn, with a very high skill cap. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 23 2016 00:55 Big J wrote: Strategy games without a focus on the mechanic aspect from mobile games to Civilization 5 (sold as much as Wings of Liberty!) are hugely popular. Age of Empires 2 has gotten support and expansions in 2015, because the game is still rolling fueled by the insane RTS-game vacuum that is going on at the moment. Desert Strike and Nexus Wars, two RTS-esque games that plainly take the mechanical skill out of SC2 probably surpass regular SC2 in popularity. DotA, a game that took WC3 and removed the macro parts of it and just focused on the one thing everybody loved about the muliplayer, the unit combats with the hero focus, eventually surpassed WC3 in popularity. In general the notion that RTS games need to be hard so that people love them goes against everything we know about games. Games aren't fun because they are hard. If a game is worth being an esport it's going to be hard because the competition makes it hard anyways. Even fucking hearthstone is an esport. Strategy games != RTS. Civ 5 is not an RTS. It's a turn-based strategy game, which is an entirely different (and well regarded) genre, if you didn't know, which also means any of the mechanical requirements of an RTS like StarCraft simply do not exist. Civ 5 is also a more accessible version of the Civ 3 / 4 formula (which are widely considered to be better games by franchise veterans) that's also on Steam and frequently on sale for very cheap. That explains its popularity. Age of Empires 2 is a game that is only one year younger than StarCraft 1. It used to be comparably popular over here in Europe back in the early 00s, and the Age of Empires series has a legacy of reverence comparable to the StarCraft franchise, despite the failings of AoE3. AoE2 HD is also on Steam, features new DLC campaigns and is often on sale for very cheap. I would also like to point out that AoE2 is also very harsh to get into as a multiplayer game, with high level plays also being very micro-intensive and multitasking-intensive, although mostly in terms of ranged unit control rather than spells or abilities as in the Blizzard games. I know this is TL and many people haven't played other RTS than StarCraft or consider them to be competitive at all, but trust me (or don't, go look it up), AoE2 is not an easy game at all. Desert Strike, Nexus Wars and their ilk have been around long before SC2. Also they're not RTS. DotA is not RTS. Hearthstone being an eSport is kind of a strange thing to touch upon. It wasn't intended as such; my hunch is that it became an eSport simply because people enjoyed watching it on Twitch and that was capitalized upon. If you ask people who have actually played. you will note that you can't actually compete at a decent level without spending hundreds of hours grinding for the cards you need to make whatever decks are being played at that time. And the only people who can win games without needing those cards are the people who already have thousands of hours of practice and intimate knowledge of the game meta to begin with. So not really different from the skill floor requirement of SC and such games. I realise my post may come across as a bit condescending but I speak as someone who has been in love with the RTS genre since the 90s and has played a few dozen of these games. I don't see the "interest" that you claim to see. SC2 is doing as well as it is solely because of Blizzard's efforts and the Blizzard brand. Every other RTS released in the past 3 or so years seems to have done very poorly either commercially or was a disappointment in the eyes of most RTS enthusiasts or both. Planetary Annihilation? Overpriced, buggy, incomplete. Grey Goo? Decent, but disappointing given the premise. Act of Aggression? Same. Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak? So far seems to be doing okay but that's based on the strength of its single player campaign (not unlike SC2 mind you) which has long been a hallmark of the Homeworld franchise. Otherwise the game has very poor AI opponents and very few skirmish / multiplayer maps. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 23 2016 00:55 Big J wrote: Strategy games without a focus on the mechanic aspect from mobile games to Civilization 5 (sold as much as Wings of Liberty!) are hugely popular. Age of Empires 2 has gotten support and expansions in 2015, because the game is still rolling fueled by the insane RTS-game vacuum that is going on at the moment. Desert Strike and Nexus Wars, two RTS-esque games that plainly take the mechanical skill out of SC2 probably surpass regular SC2 in popularity. DotA, a game that took WC3 and removed the macro parts of it and just focused on the one thing everybody loved about the muliplayer, the unit combats with the hero focus, eventually surpassed WC3 in popularity. In general the notion that RTS games need to be hard so that people love them goes against everything we know about games. Games aren't fun because they are hard. If a game is worth being an esport it's going to be hard because the competition makes it hard anyways. Even fucking hearthstone is an esport. Are you seriously trying to pass off the popularity of non RTS games as proof that RTS is a popular genre? You still are providing zero data backing up your claims. Your last paragraph is just half untrue and half irrelevant. Why do you think games like Bloodborne are popular? No games do not have to be difficult to be popular, but being hard does not automatically make them unpopular either, which you seem to suget. If you remove the core mechanics from the game to make it more popular, it did very well saleswise, you are not bringing the game to a new audience you are making a new game for a different audience. If what you want to play is Civilization you allready have Civilization, which is not even in the same genre. | ||
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
On January 23 2016 00:55 Big J wrote: Age of Empires 2 has gotten support and expansions in 2015, because the game is still rolling fueled by the insane RTS-game vacuum that is going on at the moment. I don't agree, but I can confirm that AOE2 is actually reviving quiet a bit. One of the bigger Steam communities around and improving online infrastructure. To my knowledge it isn't being played "competitively" anymore, but few "retired professionals" and casters produce couple hours of content weekly. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 23 2016 01:27 MaCRo.gg wrote: I don't agree, but I can confirm that AOE2 is actually reviving quiet a bit. One of the bigger Steam communities around and improving online infrastructure. To my knowledge it isn't being played "competitively" anymore, but few "retired professionals" and casters produce couple hours of content weekly. There are still team tournaments with hundreds of thousands of USD in prize pool. Or at least there were a few months ago. There are also showmatches between top players which have money on the line. But yeah contrary to what some people on TL might think, AoE2 is a super hard game to be good at. Maybe not BW hard, but hard nonetheless. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Whatever, believe what you want. I will be there when the Warcraft 4 hype takes over. I will be there if a creative game like Project Atlas goes to the top. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 23 2016 01:40 Big J wrote: We're getting into the stupid zone. I'm saying there is a vacuum in the RTS genre, but in general the demand for such games is there as indicated by the popularity of games that come as close as possible to the RTS genre. Then you make walls of texts that those games are not RTS genre... lol. Tell me something I didn't post upfront. Whatever, believe what you want. I will be there when the Warcraft 4 hype takes over. I will be there if a creative game like Project Atlas goes to the top. Did you miss the last part of my post? Did you miss the part where *RTS games are still coming out* but don't do well at all, either commercially or in terms of critical acclaim or playerbase? Out of curiosity, have you purchased and/or played any of the games I mentioned at the end of my previous post? If so, how did you feel about them? If there were such a vacuum wouldn't people be flocking to play those? Or is it because they're all somehow terrible games, every single one of them? Yes, WarCraft 4 hype will be very real if it ever happens, because it's a Blizzard game in a series with a long standing legacy of being excellent and also hits a nostalgia sweet spot for many people. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 23 2016 01:44 207aicila wrote: Did you miss the last part of my post? Did you miss the part where *RTS games are still coming out* but don't do well at all, either commercially or in terms of critical acclaim or playerbase? Out of curiosity, have you purchased and/or played any of the games I mentioned at the end of my previous post? If so, how did you feel about them? If there were such a vacuum wouldn't people be flocking to play those? Or is it because they're all somehow terrible games, every single one of them? Yes, WarCraft 4 hype will be very real if it ever happens, because it's a Blizzard game in a series with a long standing legacy of being excellent and also hits a nostalgia sweet spot for many people. I haven't played any of those, why would I even try them? Grey Goo canceled it's beta, I'm not going to pay $50 for a game that didn't even have a beta, sorry. Not to mention that the whole design was a mess. Like that one race that needs to connect everything and is meant to turtle for 50mins? That was kind of the description of the race, why would I want to play with or against that? Or the goo, which can wabble through units and over terrain and then split into units in the opponent's base. I have enough experience with Warpgates to know that this is just bad. Also, in general all units were pretty unmicroable by design and that's the complete opposite of what I want. Act of Aggression introduced a whole faction like 3 weeks before release. That was all I needed to know. A CS:GO player also wouldn't switch to some rushed out, cheap, third class production if there were no big shooters around anymore. A bad game is going to be bad and unsucessful, regardless of the genre. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 23 2016 01:40 Big J wrote: We're getting into the stupid zone. I'm saying there is a vacuum in the RTS genre, but in general the demand for such games is there as indicated by the popularity of games that come as close as possible to the RTS genre. Then you make walls of texts that those games are not RTS genre... lol. Tell me something I didn't post upfront. Whatever, believe what you want. I will be there when the Warcraft 4 hype takes over. I will be there if a creative game like Project Atlas goes to the top. Is the stupid zone where you go when you claim the popularity of other genres is proof that the RTS genre is popular? One of your examples, Dota, even disproves your point. The RTS version of the game, Warcraft, was surpased in popularity by the moba it made possible. In that case the RTS game lost out to the moba game. Your text is disproving your own point.. You should try to bow out more gracefully. Now you just sound bitter that you got called out with the "I will show you!" shtick. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 23 2016 01:40 Big J wrote: We're getting into the stupid zone. I'm saying there is a vacuum in the RTS genre, but in general the demand for such games is there as indicated by the popularity of games that come as close as possible to the RTS genre. Then you make walls of texts that those games are not RTS genre... lol. Tell me something I didn't post upfront. Whatever, believe what you want. I will be there when the Warcraft 4 hype takes over. I will be there if a creative game like Project Atlas goes to the top. there is no money in this vacuum. 12 to 15 year olds are getting their "big army fighting" fix by playing Mobile Strike , Boom Beach and Clash of CLans. they are spending far less time with their PCs than their fathers did. its over. will there be a small group of RTS enthusiasts making MODs and organizing C&C:Generals tournaments? Yes! there is also an active NHL '94 competitive community and a Super Tecmo Bowl Community. This is the future. This is where AoE2 is right now. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 23 2016 01:53 ddayzy wrote: Is the stupid zone where you go when you claim the popularity of other genres is proof that the RTS genre is popular? One of your examples, Dota, even disproves your point. The RTS version of the game, Warcraft, was surpased in popularity by the moba it made possible. In that case the RTS game lost out to the moba game. Your text is disproving your own point.. You should try to bow out more gracefully. Now you just sound bitter that you got called out with the "I will show you!" shtick. Sorry babyboy, but you haven't even shown a single argument yourself why the genre cannot be popular. All you do is go around discount arguments, without bringing arguments why noone wants RTS games. And when you are out of arguments because a game was popular or will be popular you just say it's a matter of company and legacy. You know what? I even agree with this. It's always a matter of who makes it. It's the center of my argument that current RTS games suck because they were produced by shitty companies. The games themselves were stupidly bad and produced with too little time and budget. Also, I was trying not to go there, but since you are hammering on it: MobA's are officially a subgenre of RTS. And that's not for you to discuss, it's everywhere you look. From it's Wikipedia article, to DotA 2's reception as "Valves first RTS" to gaming magazines ranking them as RTS games. Games like AoA or GG have been marketed as "traditional RTS games", so that the average customer knew the distinction from the currently much more popular ActionRTS games. Those games are not what we are looking for in these discussions so I'm usually not interested in this discussion, but since you keep on insisting on exact definitions, the reality is that the RTS genre was never as successful as right now, led by MobAs. We only discount them on forums like TL because in these discussions we usually look out for RTS games with a bigger build-up aspect. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 23 2016 02:02 Big J wrote: Sorry babyboy, but you haven't even shown a single argument yourself why the genre cannot be popular. All you do is go around discount arguments, without bringing arguments why noone wants RTS games. And when you are out of arguments because a game was popular or will be popular you just say it's a matter of company and legacy. You know what? I even agree with this. It's always a matter of who makes it. It's the center of my argument that current RTS games suck because they were produced by shitty companies. The games themselves were stupidly bad and produced with too little time and budget. Also, I was trying not to go there, but since you are hammering on it: MobA's are officially a subgenre of RTS. And that's not for you to discuss, it's everywhere you look. From it's Wikipedia article, to DotA 2's reception as "Valves first RTS" to gaming magazines ranking them as RTS games. Games like AoA or GG have been marketed as "traditional RTS games", so that the average customer knew the distinction from the currently much more popular ActionRTS games. Those games are not what we are looking for in these discussions so I'm usually not interested in this discussion, but since you keep on insisting on exact definitions, the reality is that the RTS genre was never as successful as right now, led by MobAs. We only discount them on forums like TL because in these discussions we usually look out for RTS games with a bigger build-up aspect. Except that nobody is asking for RTS games, close to non are made and those who are made sells very poorly. The market has spoken loud and clear. Starcrafts RTS formula is the only exception so for you to claim that changing it's uniqly popular gameplay in a way that would still keep it within the same genre would make it more popular is suported by air. Unless you think the direction of RTS is become a subgenre of itself how is this relevant? | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On January 22 2016 08:58 heishe wrote: Of course they don't know the game like we do, but a lot of their criticism and subjective feeling about the game are justified because SC2 does objectively have some pretty stupid things that do make it a "clickfest", like the arbitrary macro mechanics and lack of a lot of utility function in the UI and control that would make it easier to manage. Also, at the level that most players enter the game, playing speedy far outweighs playing strategically smart, by a ton actually. TBH if these things were gone I think the game would automatically become exactly 120% more awesome, because the sick Korean APM would go into many multipronged unit micro battles which are infinitely more exciting to watch (and also to play) than seeing someones APM being pumped into putting down mules and checking how many drones they have at each expansion. FWIW this is pretty much exactly why I stopped playing. Mechanics far outweigh strategy in Starcraft 2, and there is very little strategic flexibility or variation in either the matchups or maps. The only real "strategic" question: is my opponent cheesing or no? If no, then you know exactly everything that's going to happen in the game from start to finish and there's nothing you can do about it except execute more cleanly/faster than the other guy and for god's sake don't look away from your minimap for more than 5 seconds. LOTV only made this problem worse by adding lots of new micro mechanics to the mayhem. This isn't why I play "strategy" games so I've moved on. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
Game quality is only 1 small factor in determining a game's profitability... and if you're on the wrong side of shifting consumer tastes you're fucked no matter what you do. which is why ATVI, EA and MS have stopped making new RTS games after having profited from them year after year after year after year after... now, if you'll excuse me i'm going to plug in my pinball machine and see how many free extra balls i can win... its way more fun than Space Invaders. I have no idea how that boring piece of shit made any money with so many bitchin' Pinball Machines available to play! On January 23 2016 02:56 BaronVonOwn wrote: FWIW this is pretty much exactly why I stopped playing. Mechanics far outweigh strategy in Starcraft 2, and there is very little strategic flexibility or variation in either the matchups or maps. The only real "strategic" question: is my opponent cheesing or no? If no, then you know exactly everything that's going to happen in the game from start to finish and there's nothing you can do about it except execute more cleanly/faster than the other guy and for god's sake don't look away from your minimap for more than 5 seconds. LOTV only made this problem worse by adding lots of new micro mechanics to the mayhem. This isn't why I play "strategy" games so I've moved on. you are not alone in this perspective. many people with this perspective are happily playing CoH1 and CoH2. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 23 2016 02:56 BaronVonOwn wrote: FWIW this is pretty much exactly why I stopped playing. Mechanics far outweigh strategy in Starcraft 2, and there is very little strategic flexibility or variation in either the matchups or maps. The only real "strategic" question: is my opponent cheesing or no? If no, then you know exactly everything that's going to happen in the game from start to finish and there's nothing you can do about it except execute more cleanly/faster than the other guy and for god's sake don't look away from your minimap for more than 5 seconds. LOTV only made this problem worse by adding lots of new micro mechanics to the mayhem. This isn't why I play "strategy" games so I've moved on. What exactly do you mean by strategic decision? How you split your units, which you make and every little decision like that is a strategic decision. If you chees in ZvZ then strategic decision would be what kind of chees you go for, how early your pool and gas is, how many banelings you make, how many ravagers, when can you start making workers again, how many can you get away with, do you need a spine and much much more. What you seem to want is a slower game where decision making is alpha and omega and no that is not Starcraft, it never was and I hope it never will be. | ||
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Jealous
10140 Posts
On January 23 2016 02:56 BaronVonOwn wrote: FWIW this is pretty much exactly why I stopped playing. Mechanics far outweigh strategy in Starcraft 2, and there is very little strategic flexibility or variation in either the matchups or maps. The only real "strategic" question: is my opponent cheesing or no? If no, then you know exactly everything that's going to happen in the game from start to finish and there's nothing you can do about it except execute more cleanly/faster than the other guy and for god's sake don't look away from your minimap for more than 5 seconds. LOTV only made this problem worse by adding lots of new micro mechanics to the mayhem. This isn't why I play "strategy" games so I've moved on. You shouldn't have been playing "Real Time" Strategy games in the first place if you have a problem with the necessary actions that need to be made in respect to Real Time. TBS is more for you. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On January 23 2016 04:05 ddayzy wrote: What exactly do you mean by strategic decision? How you split your units, which you make and every little decision like that is a strategic decision. If you chees in ZvZ then strategic decision would be what kind of chees you go for, how early your pool and gas is, how many banelings you make, how many ravagers, when can you start making workers again, how many can you get away with, do you need a spine and much much more. What you seem to want is a slower game where decision making is alpha and omega and no that is not Starcraft, it never was and I hope it never will be. I'm not surprised that after 5 years of SC2, a lot of people don't know what strategic gameplay is. If you think building a gas extractor @13 drones instead of @18 constitutes compelling strategic decisionmaking I'm really terrified by the low standards consumers have for video games these days. Instead of asking "how many" banelings to make, I want to be asking whether I'm going to be playing with melee ground (ling/bane/ultra), ranged ground (hydra/roach/lurker), or air. If I'm protoss I'd like to choose between templar tech, robo, or stargate. Terran should be able to choose between barracks, mech, or air. Combinations should also be possible, of course. That's just unit comps. Then there's the problem of playstyles. Zerg is funneled into aggressive play with poor defensive options, whereas protoss has always been forced onto the defensive with little ability to control the map or trade units. Lastly the maps themselves are so cookie-cutter and uninteresting. Your pattern of expansions is laid out for you with no strategic dilemmas, and you hardly spend any time contesting strategic areas of the map compared to even "non-strategy" games like Counter-Strike or League of Legends, to say nothing of Civ, XCOM, chess, etc. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 23 2016 05:21 BaronVonOwn wrote: That's just unit comps. Then there's the problem of playstyles. Zerg is funneled into aggressive play with poor defensive options Conveniently forgetting the year and a half (or was it closer to two years?) of swarm host turtle play... it must have been so traumatic that your mind blocked it out entirely, haha. What about the period of spine forest into brood lord infestor slowroll that preceded that? On January 23 2016 05:21 BaronVonOwn wrote: whereas protoss has always been forced onto the defensive with little ability to control the map or trade units. Yeah you're right, Protoss has always been forced to play defensively, you know except for all the years where the best Protoss strategies relied on cheese, two base all-inning or otherwise hitting a very aggressive timing attack. Nevermind the Adept bullshit going on right now. Honestly I would tend to agree with the general sentiment of your post, if not for the condescending tone and objectively wrong arguments that you chose to support it. Except the map part, maps have been pretty boring for a while now. On January 23 2016 05:21 BaronVonOwn wrote: and you hardly spend any time contesting strategic areas of the map compared to even "non-strategy" games like Counter-Strike or League of Legends, to say nothing of Civ, XCOM, chess, etc. Also I just find these random namedrops really funny... Mostly because it would be ironic if you were referring to Civ 5 and XCOM:EU, which are by far the more popular games these days, because Civ 5 is considered a dumbed down mainstream-ification of Civ 3 / 4 by series veterans; likewise XCOM:EU compared to the original game. Couldn't help but point that out. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 23 2016 05:21 BaronVonOwn wrote: I'm not surprised that after 5 years of SC2, a lot of people don't know what strategic gameplay is. If you think building a gas extractor @13 drones instead of @18 constitutes compelling strategic decisionmaking I'm really terrified by the low standards consumers have for video games these days. Instead of asking "how many" banelings to make, I want to be asking whether I'm going to be playing with melee ground (ling/bane/ultra), ranged ground (hydra/roach/lurker), or air. If I'm protoss I'd like to choose between templar tech, robo, or stargate. Terran should be able to choose between barracks, mech, or air. Combinations should also be possible, of course. That's just unit comps. Then there's the problem of playstyles. Zerg is funneled into aggressive play with poor defensive options, whereas protoss has always been forced onto the defensive with little ability to control the map or trade units. Lastly the maps themselves are so cookie-cutter and uninteresting. Your pattern of expansions is laid out for you with no strategic dilemmas, and you hardly spend any time contesting strategic areas of the map compared to even "non-strategy" games like Counter-Strike or League of Legends, to say nothing of Civ, XCOM, chess, etc. And that person is you. I'm sorry but what you are saying here is utter nonsens. That is a strategic decision, it is a incredible important decision because it is gonna limit what you can and can't do from there one. If your tech requires gas when you can tech depends on when you take the gas, the same goes for units. If you commit to gas early you might not have enough minerals to do other things. This is hard decision to make that effects what you can do later and it will depend on what your oponent is doing unless you are planning on doing, since you like chess, a forcing move. That is one minor minor thing you do in a game of Starcraft and it has such a huge impact on your build and game. If you like chess you would surely appreciate how complicated that is. The situation you are describing in your second paragraph is allready in a game, and is one of many many decisions you must make during the game. You have to decide on that and on how many of each unit you are gonna make. What is your point with this paragraph? I'm sorry? Zerg had Swarm Host and have Lurkers. They were and are perfectly capable of playing defensivly. As Protoss you have mothership core with recall, blink stalkers, warp prisme, observers and the ability to warp in on the other end of the map? Protoss who spent half of the last patch cannon rushing don't ahve offensive options or map control? What on earth are you talking about? Of course there will be a optimal way of expanding, that will be the case no matter how the map are made. Yet there are gold bases, people taking secret base and you can choose to expand towards or away from your oponent giving players options. Potential base spots are no strategic spaceswhaaaaaa...? Saying games like League of Legends and Counter Strike are not strategic is stupid. If you think Civilization requires more strategical decisions then Starcraft you have never understod Starcraft at all. Please provide me with a list of all the strategic decisions you make in a game of Civilization and I will do the same for Starcraft and we can compere.. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 23 2016 01:05 Big J wrote: As far as I know the problem with indie RTS games is that there is no engine you can develop it on. Blizzard is probably the only company that has an engine worth of a modern times RTS games and they are not giving it away. Blizzard has given it away. make your own RTS game on their MODKit any time you want. and there is Valve's response to the world builder. https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dota_2_Workshop_Tools/Addon_Overview Valve will license anything.. including their Dota2 engine. the Source 2 engine is free for developers don't liek these options? how about another Valve product: Unreal4? https://www.unrealengine.com/faq https://www.unrealengine.com/custom-licensing the 22 year old versions of IceFrog, Daniel Buntin, David Crane, Jon Van Canagham and Sid Meier has so many more tools at their disposal than they did years ago; these talented, creative game designers are out there.. just as they were 10,20, 30 and even 40 years ago. None of them are making RTS games. | ||
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KrOeastbound
England59 Posts
Sc2 has also had some high points and fun times. I have found memories of the game during WoL personally. Oh yeah someone in this thread was saying Pac-Man is dead? the legend never dies! ;D http://store.steampowered.com/app/236450/ | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 23 2016 06:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Blizzard has given it away. make your own RTS game on their MODKit any time you want. and there is Valve's response to the world builder. https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dota_2_Workshop_Tools/Addon_Overview Valve will license anything.. including their Dota2 engine. the Source 2 engine is free for developers don't liek these options? how about another Valve product: Unreal4? https://www.unrealengine.com/faq https://www.unrealengine.com/custom-licensing the 22 year old versions of IceFrog, Daniel Buntin, David Crane, Jon Van Canagham and Sid Meier has so many more tools at their disposal than they did years ago; these talented, creative game designers are out there.. just as they were 10,20, 30 and even 40 years ago. None of them are making RTS games. The Unreal engine is from Epic, not from Valve | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 23 2016 09:26 KrOeastbound wrote: People can white knight ActiBlizz all they want but seriously now why is Sc2 not doing particularly well even in Korea? BW is still one of the most popular games there, so the RTS doommongery doesn't really cut it in this instance, neither does the other excuses. Hard to accept, but maybe Sc2 is just not good enough to be a really popular game even with the downward trend/poor performance of RTS games in AAA developers and smaller studios/indie. Could be many things from the design of the game, devs out of their depth with a proper competitive game and not moving with the times or just Sc2 being low priority at Activision board meetings. I wouldn't like to say which one and it's not all doom and gloom as Sc2 has also had some high points and fun times. I have found memories of the game during WoL personally. Oh yeah someone in this thread was saying Pac-Man is dead? the legend never dies! ;D http://store.steampowered.com/app/236450/ the linked game above has nothing to do with the arcade Pacman game released in 1981. Nothing. in the 1981 arcade coin-op game you can use the same memorized pattern to go from the 3rd board to the 9th Key. i could teach my grandmother to break 200,000 in arcade Pacman in less than a day. Despite how crap the game was it pulled in 7 Billion. No other dot-eating-maze-game that came out after it came even close. The games coming out after Pacman were really good... and made fuck all. Kotick knows all this way better than anyone and is aligning ATVI's resources accordingly. No more RTS games. Kotick is a genius of monetization and has determined RTS games can't be monetized. So we're getting Guitar Hero, Skylanders, Moar WoW, Hearthstone. etc etc. they can be monetized. it doesn't matter that a some group of people are playing a 17 year old RTS game and spending $0. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 23 2016 06:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Blizzard has given it away. make your own RTS game on their MODKit any time you want. and there is Valve's response to the world builder. https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dota_2_Workshop_Tools/Addon_Overview Valve will license anything.. including their Dota2 engine. the Source 2 engine is free for developers don't liek these options? how about another Valve product: Unreal4? https://www.unrealengine.com/faq https://www.unrealengine.com/custom-licensing the 22 year old versions of IceFrog, Daniel Buntin, David Crane, Jon Van Canagham and Sid Meier has so many more tools at their disposal than they did years ago; these talented, creative game designers are out there.. just as they were 10,20, 30 and even 40 years ago. None of them are making RTS games. So I'm really not well-versed in these these software questions, I can only tell you what I heard which is why I said afaik. I'm happy to be proven wrong here if you can find me some good sources that state that some cheaply available modern engine is well-suited for RTS development, so that indie developers could use it. Now to your points in specific: Blizzard has not given it away as far as I know. If you mean the editor, the deal is if you make something with the editor it belongs to them. So an indie company cannot develop a game in the editor. I don't know about Valve's world builder, but I could see it being a similar deal to blizzard's. Also in both of them you probably have to rely heavily on workarounds to make your own ideas work and it will never be quite the same as making a game from scratch. Don't know if the unreal engine is good for it. But I remember some comments about the Frostbite engine which would have been used in the cancelled CnC and that the developers had to put in tons of work to adapt it for an RTS. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On January 23 2016 04:05 ddayzy wrote: What exactly do you mean by strategic decision? How you split your units, which you make and every little decision like that is a strategic decision. If you chees in ZvZ then strategic decision would be what kind of chees you go for, how early your pool and gas is, how many banelings you make, how many ravagers, when can you start making workers again, how many can you get away with, do you need a spine and much much more. What you seem to want is a slower game where decision making is alpha and omega and no that is not Starcraft, it never was and I hope it never will be. On January 23 2016 04:16 Jealous wrote: You shouldn't have been playing "Real Time" Strategy games in the first place if you have a problem with the necessary actions that need to be made in respect to Real Time. TBS is more for you. I just quoted these two but there are multiple other responses like this in the thread, and I have to say this shitty behavior you just displayed doesn't help with keeping new players. Someone just explains why they stopped playing in a calm manner without insulting anyone and your inner SC2 fanboy gets offended, so you get defensive and basically insult them with some completely nonsensical and pseudo psychological garbage. Similar treatment of anyone who suggests changes to the game because they don't like a certain aspect of the game is seen all the time on here, Bnet forums and the Starcraft subreddit, even if the suggestions would make perfect sense and wouldn't change the nature of the game at all. It seems all actual discussion about the content and balance of the game revolves around the endless balance whines of diamond players who think a balance patch is going to carry them to masters league, or spoiled terrans who are mad discussing that they can't exactly replicate a playstyle from brood war. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 23 2016 11:21 heishe wrote: I just quoted these two but there are multiple other responses like this in the thread, and I have to say this shitty behavior you just displayed doesn't help with keeping new players. Someone just explains why they stopped playing in a calm manner without insulting anyone and your inner SC2 fanboy gets offended, so you get defensive and basically insult them with some completely nonsensical and pseudo psychological garbage. Similar treatment of anyone who suggests changes to the game because they don't like a certain aspect of the game is seen all the time on here, Bnet forums and the Starcraft subreddit, even if the suggestions would make perfect sense and wouldn't change the nature of the game at all. It seems all actual discussion about the content and balance of the game revolves around the endless balance whines of diamond players who think a balance patch is going to carry them to masters league, or spoiled terrans who are mad discussing that they can't exactly replicate a playstyle from brood war. Telling people who don't want to make decisions in real time that a REAL TIME strategy game might not be for them and pointing out the multitude of strategical decisions made in a game of Starcraft to someone claiming there are non is nonsens how? If the change you want for Starcraft is to take out the real time aspect you not only want to change the game you want it to change genre which is dumb. Your post is so dishonest it makes me wonder about your motives. Pointing out factual errors in someones argument and providing counter arguments is shitty behaviour? Then what would your petulant rant constitute? You are free to dislike whatever you want but when you say what you dislike is that there is no strategical decisions in Starcraft I'm also free to point out that you are factually wrong and the multitude of strategical decisions made in a game of Starcraft. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
On January 22 2016 23:23 MaCRo.gg wrote: I think we have a misunderstanding. I'm fine with WCS being what ever it wants it to be. It is Blizzard's money. They can limit or have 0 Koreans for all their events and I couldn't care less. What I do have a problem with is Blizzard giving monetary incentive for all other tournaments to NOT have Koreans in them. I just don't see the increase in Korean scene funding as a justifiable trade-off. If they want to have these "anti-Korean" policies, they should rather have all the WCS money go to a separate welfare tournament for the foreigners like the 2012 WCS. I don't think any of the "pro-Korean" posters on here think Korean scene should be artificially propped up by Blizzard, they just want Koreans to be able attend their tournaments. The actual problem is neither nor. It is the almost yearly changing policy of blizzard. But I am pretty sure Blizzard isn't gonna keep doing that. The recent changes of course ejected some players that were specifically adapted to the previous system. The same happened before with non Koreans when they suddenly invited Koreans into WCS EU and US. It will take some time to cure but it will in the end. More interesting is the debate about mechanical demands vs. strategical depth and variety of SC2. While LOTV has improved SC2, this is still one of the major things to discuss. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 23 2016 10:51 Big J wrote: If you mean the editor, the deal is if you make something with the editor it belongs to them. Blizzard's ownership of your work is debateable depending on where you live. Microsoft does not own Starcraft1 despite the fact that is was made with Microsoft development tools. The guy making Dota1 now works for Valve and made Dota2. Blizzard did not go after IceFrog with the claim they owned his work. On January 23 2016 10:51 Big J wrote: Also in both of them you probably have to rely heavily on workarounds to make your own ideas work and it will never be quite the same as making a game from scratch. the DOTA1 idea worked great on the WC3 worldbuilder and it is not as good as the SC2 worldbuilder. However, if you disagree, the WC3 worldbuilder is still available for use today. In conclusion: the problem with making a new RTS game is not cost. The problem is that no one from Bob Kotick to Gabe Newell to Andrew Wilson believes you can generate revenue in the genre. Even Blizzard has stopped developing new RTS games. Blizzcon 2015 was Starcraft's Swan Song. | ||
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TwiggyWan
France329 Posts
On January 23 2016 05:21 BaronVonOwn wrote: I'm not surprised that after 5 years of SC2, a lot of people don't know what strategic gameplay is. If you think building a gas extractor @13 drones instead of @18 constitutes compelling strategic decisionmaking I'm really terrified by the low standards consumers have for video games these days. Instead of asking "how many" banelings to make, I want to be asking whether I'm going to be playing with melee ground (ling/bane/ultra), ranged ground (hydra/roach/lurker), or air. If I'm protoss I'd like to choose between templar tech, robo, or stargate. Terran should be able to choose between barracks, mech, or air. Combinations should also be possible, of course. That's just unit comps. Then there's the problem of playstyles. Zerg is funneled into aggressive play with poor defensive options, whereas protoss has always been forced onto the defensive with little ability to control the map or trade units. Lastly the maps themselves are so cookie-cutter and uninteresting. Your pattern of expansions is laid out for you with no strategic dilemmas, and you hardly spend any time contesting strategic areas of the map compared to even "non-strategy" games like Counter-Strike or League of Legends, to say nothing of Civ, XCOM, chess, etc. Have you tried supreme commander forged alliance? Also i agree with your idea. SC/SC2 lacks impactful choices to be made. It's either you make the good one, or the bad one(example:unit compositions) . Each option you get should have advantages and weaknesses so that you'd have to think which one to choose and not just blindly rely on your last 100 games played. (example : attack A or B in CSGO, or do a tech rush vs T1 spam in supcom FA). The part I like the most is in Best of X series, where players get to study their opponent, plan their builds for specific points in the set, etc.. But unfortunately, who here plays Best of X often? Are SC/SC2 cool games? Probably yes. Are they strategic?Not really, but it's fine, if you like it. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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ErectedZenith
325 Posts
On January 24 2016 01:41 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Wow, all you guys saying SC2 has no strategy. Do you even play the game? When you did play the game, you must literally play blind, no scouting, follow an exacting build order down to a T, without any regard to responding to any changing circumstances, and then get fustrated. We need to define what "strategy" is. SC2 definitely have some form of planning and decision making involved. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 24 2016 01:51 ErectedZenith wrote: We need to define what "strategy" is. SC2 definitely have some form of planning and decision making involved. Strategy is well defined enough. Just about any definition is adequate. 1- "a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim." 2- "the art of planning and directing overall military operations and movements in a war or battle." 3- "a plan for military operations and movements during a war or battle." 4- "the skill of making or carrying out plans to achieve a goal" 5- "is a high level plan to achieve one or more goals under conditions of uncertainty" People who say SC2 has no strategy are actually being inflammatory. What they're saying is that the strategic depth is limited, which may be the case in comparison with other games - or not. Either way it's arguable. Perhaps those who say that are arguing from ignorance though. To give an example, I'm a big fan of counter-strike, which is touted by many as a game with incredible strategic depth, which is true to an extent. Some teams watch other teams play, they figure out tendencies and "counter-strat". Others use raw skill and simple tactics to win, with just about no overall strategy. So there are teams with very elaborate strategies spanning multiple rounds, and well-rehearsed tactics, and some of those get obliterated by raw mechanical skill. Many people, myself included, feel like the strategic portion of the game, while very important, often gets overshadowed by the mechanics and the general "reactive" feel to the general decisionmaking process. Yet if we're serious, BW had a lot of that too. BO wins, mind games, reactive plays (which IMO were at least less based on unit composition). So there is strategy, but are viewers given the tools to appreciate it? I dunno. | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
On January 24 2016 01:51 ErectedZenith wrote: We need to define what "strategy" is. SC2 definitely have some form of planning and decision making involved. Do we even need to define it to address BaronVonOwn's concerns though? He states a bunch of things don't exist in the game that actually do exist in the game. It's like if I say "fruits aren't on the menu because there are no bananas, oranges and apples" and then you look over at the other table and see people eating bananas, oranges, and apples. How do you even respond to that? Say that we need to define what a fruit is? Maybe he's got something good to teach us but the way he's gone about it so far isn't making sense to me. If you're gonna come to a hardcore SC2 forum and say SC2 doesn't have strategy, then you ought to have a pretty tight argument and logic and say exactly what you mean. Instead he's just made himself look like someone who never reached an understanding of competitive play. I think if you look at anything that involves strategy like other games or business or politics you can find analogues to it in SC2. And just like other things that involve strategy, strategy can end up not mattering much due to other factors having a bigger influence on the outcome. Or all other things are equal and strategy determines the outcome. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
In the general wide-sense any game is a strategy game and any game playing in real-time + Show Spoiler + I guess we have to talk about simulated real-time here to be precise since even SC2 like any other computer program is actually turn-based, the turns just happen way too fast In that light I believe that when someone says that a game is lacking strategy they refer to the decisions that are largely execution independent. Since the prevalence of such decisions (let's call them "internal decisions") are a defining difference of what we understand as strategy game genre (and it's subgenre's like RTS), compared to (let's call them "external") decisions which are based on execution which any game played in real-time naturally have. (e.g. the decision to attack an opponent in a shooter, which in theory has just as high of a chance of killing you, but practically might be surprised by your initiative). | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
. Well it is true anyone with common sense can see that it has been occurring for a long time. What I'm a bit more worried about is whether there will be any new RTS to replace it? I think the genre is still pretty interesting, but I hope there is a more user-friendly version that doesn't require such extreme requirements for high APM (at least for most of us).If there was a more strategic, tactical form of RTS that was not so fast paced, but not to the point of being turn based like a normal strategy game, I think that might be fun. It would be pretty hard to design though | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On January 24 2016 01:51 ErectedZenith wrote: We need to define what "strategy" is. SC2 definitely have some form of planning and decision making involved. EVERY game has planning and decisionmaking in some way. Even people speed-running Super Mario Bros. have a strategy. My argument is about the quality, quantity, and types of choices available. Strategy games are set apart by the fact that you command many units, and usually also build bases and units too. So you would expect that a lot of the interesting choices involve which units and buildings to make. The other half would be when to make them and where to put them. I'm saying that SC2 is lacking the first half, choosing among units and buildings. Each matchup has an "optimal" unit comp / deathball which cannot be strongly countered by another unit comp. If you don't build this comp at best you're playing at a disadvantage and at worst you're giving yourself a free loss. There's a lot of broken tech paths, units, and false choices in this game, it could even be the majority by this point. For example protoss has 3 very distinct late-game tech paths: stargate, robotics, twilight. Did you choose twilight tech? Your prize is a widow mine in your mineral line, better luck next game. Or let's take zerg after lair. Your options are a hydra den, spire, or infestor pit. Who the fuck is going to use infestors or swarm hosts as a key part of their army/strategy after all the nerfs? So what people have been falling back on is the other half, timings. Well guess what? Almost every game has decisionmaking revolving around time or hitting timing windows because time is so basic. Even poker players time their decisions to send false signals to their opponents. That's really not a distinctive game feature or something to be proud of. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On January 24 2016 05:58 BaronVonOwn wrote: EVERY game has planning and decisionmaking in some way. Even people speed-running Super Mario Bros. have a strategy. My argument is about the quality, quantity, and types of choices available. Strategy games are set apart by the fact that you command many units, and usually also build bases and units too. So you would expect that a lot of the interesting choices involve which units and buildings to make. The other half would be when to make them and where to put them. I'm saying that SC2 is lacking the first half, choosing among units and buildings. Each matchup has an "optimal" unit comp / deathball which cannot be strongly countered by another unit comp. If you don't build this comp at best you're playing at a disadvantage and at worst you're giving yourself a free loss. There's a lot of broken tech paths, units, and false choices in this game, it could even be the majority by this point. For example protoss has 3 very distinct late-game tech paths: stargate, robotics, twilight. Did you choose twilight tech? Your prize is a widow mine in your mineral line, better luck next game. Or let's take zerg after lair. Your options are a hydra den, spire, or infestor pit. Who the fuck is going to use infestors or swarm hosts as a key part of their army/strategy after all the nerfs? So what people have been falling back on is the other half, timings. Well guess what? Almost every game has decisionmaking revolving around time or hitting timing windows because time is so basic. Even poker players time their decisions to send false signals to their opponents. That's really not a distinctive game feature or something to be proud of. Infestors are used in every MU right now in Korea, and Neural Parasite got buffed in LotV. Zerg are not nearly as locked in to a few set in stone compositions as the other races, IMO. They're only locked in to roach/rav or LBM or what have you if you're being aggressive in the early game. Otherwise pretty much every single unit except SH is eminently useful and could form the core of an army. | ||
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
On January 24 2016 07:31 Scrubwave wrote: Blizzard made their bed with decisions regarding sc2 design and now they're getting fucked in it. Well aside from my personal gripe I think the real reason SC2 doesn't appeal to new players is that it was designed to please mainly the most hardcore players. In the group of friends I played Brood War with, I was the only one who played "competitively" like 1v1's on Lost Temple. Everyone else played BGH or money maps and that was true of 90% of Brood War players. Even my friends who were Brood War veterans were all too afraid to play the SC2 1v1 ladder. Hardcore players liked to look down on these filthy casuals but is it funny anymore? I think forcing all players, new or otherwise, into that hypercompetitive, extremely difficult gameplay was a huge mistake but it's all history now. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On January 24 2016 05:58 BaronVonOwn wrote: So basically you lost a game because you didn't know how to deal with widow mine drops and you rage quit the game forever and then you came here to claim that sc2 has no strategy. Only that you admit it does, but apparently you couldn't make any interesting choices regarding which units or buildings to make to counter widow mine drops. Really?EVERY game has planning and decisionmaking in some way. Even people speed-running Super Mario Bros. have a strategy. My argument is about the quality, quantity, and types of choices available. Strategy games are set apart by the fact that you command many units, and usually also build bases and units too. So you would expect that a lot of the interesting choices involve which units and buildings to make. The other half would be when to make them and where to put them. I'm saying that SC2 is lacking the first half, choosing among units and buildings. Each matchup has an "optimal" unit comp / deathball which cannot be strongly countered by another unit comp. If you don't build this comp at best you're playing at a disadvantage and at worst you're giving yourself a free loss. There's a lot of broken tech paths, units, and false choices in this game, it could even be the majority by this point. For example protoss has 3 very distinct late-game tech paths: stargate, robotics, twilight. Did you choose twilight tech? Your prize is a widow mine in your mineral line, better luck next game. Or let's take zerg after lair. Your options are a hydra den, spire, or infestor pit. Who the fuck is going to use infestors or swarm hosts as a key part of their army/strategy after all the nerfs? So what people have been falling back on is the other half, timings. Well guess what? Almost every game has decisionmaking revolving around time or hitting timing windows because time is so basic. Even poker players time their decisions to send false signals to their opponents. That's really not a distinctive game feature or something to be proud of. There's so many things wrong with your assertations. Apparently there is an optimal unit composition to play the game. Because in BaronVonOwn's world, every game is 20 min no rush, wait till we econ up and get the perfect comp to smash into your perfect comp. Unless you get widow mine dropped. All them broken tech paths. Them dirty GSL protosses, building twilight councils, how dare they! Protoss late game is only allowed one of three tech buildings. No combinations allowed. But then how does the optimal deathball gets built? Add disguised protoss balance whine. Hilarious. Oh and the aforementioned widow mine ends your game. No one makes infestors. Do you even play this game? No? Better claim that an apple is an orange. Therefore there is no strategy in SC2 but timings. Can't tell if trolling, or just wants to balance whine about protoss. | ||
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Livemau
United States7 Posts
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
On January 24 2016 08:22 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So basically you lost a game because you didn't know how to deal with widow mine drops and you rage quit the game forever and then you came here to claim that sc2 has no strategy. Only that you admit it does, but apparently you couldn't make any interesting choices regarding which units or buildings to make to counter widow mine drops. Really? There's so many things wrong with your assertations. Apparently there is an optimal unit composition to play the game. Because in BaronVonOwn's world, every game is 20 min no rush, wait till we econ up and get the perfect comp to smash into your perfect comp. Unless you get widow mine dropped. All them broken tech paths. Them dirty GSL protosses, building twilight councils, how dare they! Protoss late game is only allowed one of three tech buildings. No combinations allowed. But then how does the optimal deathball gets built? Add disguised protoss balance whine. Hilarious. Oh and the aforementioned widow mine ends your game. No one makes infestors. Do you even play this game? No? Better claim that an apple is an orange. Therefore there is no strategy in SC2 but timings. Can't tell if trolling, or just wants to balance whine about protoss. You have to admit, there are *a lot* of situations in SC2 where a person just cheeses you out of the game. Didn't SOS do that *three* times in the world championship, winning in less than 2 minutes or so? In general if you don't have a way of scouting your opponent (and no terran scans since they need the minerals, unless they're okay possibly being behind in economy), then they can come at you with some 7-gate all in that catches you by complete surprise and you have no way to hold it off. Unless you play as safe as possible, but then you're screwed when you discover your opponent is playing the heavy economy game. Its stuff like that which ultimately makes SC2 unfun...and I know that its not just me, because it happens to pro players on their streams *all the time*, in particular with MC's unstoppable 2-base all-ins (or really from any protoss). | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 24 2016 08:22 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So basically you lost a game because you didn't know how to deal with widow mine drops and you rage quit the game forever and then you came here to claim that sc2 has no strategy. Only that you admit it does, but apparently you couldn't make any interesting choices regarding which units or buildings to make to counter widow mine drops. Really? There's so many things wrong with your assertations. Apparently there is an optimal unit composition to play the game. Because in BaronVonOwn's world, every game is 20 min no rush, wait till we econ up and get the perfect comp to smash into your perfect comp. Unless you get widow mine dropped. All them broken tech paths. Them dirty GSL protosses, building twilight councils, how dare they! Protoss late game is only allowed one of three tech buildings. No combinations allowed. But then how does the optimal deathball gets built? Add disguised protoss balance whine. Hilarious. Oh and the aforementioned widow mine ends your game. No one makes infestors. Do you even play this game? No? Better claim that an apple is an orange. Therefore there is no strategy in SC2 but timings. Can't tell if trolling, or just wants to balance whine about protoss. Maybe he's an Avilo fan | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 24 2016 03:51 Big J wrote: I think defining what someone means by "strategy" is a good start because the general consensus would be the game theoretical one imo (like Djzapz tries to refer to), and in that one it makes no sense to talk about distinctions like strategy or real-time strategy games from other genres: In the general wide-sense any game is a strategy game and any game playing in real-time + Show Spoiler + I guess we have to talk about simulated real-time here to be precise since even SC2 like any other computer program is actually turn-based, the turns just happen way too fast In that light I believe that when someone says that a game is lacking strategy they refer to the decisions that are largely execution independent. Since the prevalence of such decisions (let's call them "internal decisions") are a defining difference of what we understand as strategy game genre (and it's subgenre's like RTS), compared to (let's call them "external") decisions which are based on execution which any game played in real-time naturally have. (e.g. the decision to attack an opponent in a shooter, which in theory has just as high of a chance of killing you, but practically might be surprised by your initiative). This is again nonsens. There allready is a definition for that word so no, you don't have to make up a new one. No SC2 is not turned based. No those games would not be rts games. To be a rts game constitutes more then just including the two components this genre puts most weight on in your game play. There is a whole host of other criterias not in the actual name. Again, a definition of that word allready exist and it is not what you are pretending it to be here. Your last paragraph is down right hilarious, What on gods green earth do you mean by execution independent? What you are actually writing is that strategic decisions is decisions are arbetrary and that what you do is not related to your decisions which makes no sense on any level, so I assume you mena something else then what you are actually saying. | ||
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lestye
United States4163 Posts
On January 24 2016 08:22 Dangermousecatdog wrote: So basically you lost a game because you didn't know how to deal with widow mine drops and you rage quit the game forever and then you came here to claim that sc2 has no strategy. Only that you admit it does, but apparently you couldn't make any interesting choices regarding which units or buildings to make to counter widow mine drops. Really? There's so many things wrong with your assertations. Apparently there is an optimal unit composition to play the game. Because in BaronVonOwn's world, every game is 20 min no rush, wait till we econ up and get the perfect comp to smash into your perfect comp. Unless you get widow mine dropped. All them broken tech paths. Them dirty GSL protosses, building twilight councils, how dare they! Protoss late game is only allowed one of three tech buildings. No combinations allowed. But then how does the optimal deathball gets built? Add disguised protoss balance whine. Hilarious. Oh and the aforementioned widow mine ends your game. No one makes infestors. Do you even play this game? No? Better claim that an apple is an orange. Therefore there is no strategy in SC2 but timings. Can't tell if trolling, or just wants to balance whine about protoss. my strategy didn't work because my defenses were inadequate and I let cloaked units destroy my base. Clearly there's no strategy involved, ignore my shoddy execution. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 24 2016 05:58 BaronVonOwn wrote: EVERY game has planning and decisionmaking in some way. Even people speed-running Super Mario Bros. have a strategy. My argument is about the quality, quantity, and types of choices available. Strategy games are set apart by the fact that you command many units, and usually also build bases and units too. So you would expect that a lot of the interesting choices involve which units and buildings to make. The other half would be when to make them and where to put them. I'm saying that SC2 is lacking the first half, choosing among units and buildings. Each matchup has an "optimal" unit comp / deathball which cannot be strongly countered by another unit comp. If you don't build this comp at best you're playing at a disadvantage and at worst you're giving yourself a free loss. There's a lot of broken tech paths, units, and false choices in this game, it could even be the majority by this point. For example protoss has 3 very distinct late-game tech paths: stargate, robotics, twilight. Did you choose twilight tech? Your prize is a widow mine in your mineral line, better luck next game. Or let's take zerg after lair. Your options are a hydra den, spire, or infestor pit. Who the fuck is going to use infestors or swarm hosts as a key part of their army/strategy after all the nerfs? So what people have been falling back on is the other half, timings. Well guess what? Almost every game has decisionmaking revolving around time or hitting timing windows because time is so basic. Even poker players time their decisions to send false signals to their opponents. That's really not a distinctive game feature or something to be proud of. This is completly false. There are some unit compositions that work better versus other unit compositions thus your decision on what to build should be, in part, based on what your oponent has. That doesn't mean there is only one unit you can build to win. It depends on what you want to do, your strategy, in respons to what your oponent is doing, his strategy. This gives the game more strategic depth. What you seem to sugest is that you want to build something completly arbitrary without any regards to what your oponent has. If what you build doesnt matter then it is no longer a strategic decision. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 24 2016 09:53 radscorpion9 wrote: You have to admit, there are *a lot* of situations in SC2 where a person just cheeses you out of the game. Didn't SOS do that *three* times in the world championship, winning in less than 2 minutes or so? In general if you don't have a way of scouting your opponent (and no terran scans since they need the minerals, unless they're okay possibly being behind in economy), then they can come at you with some 7-gate all in that catches you by complete surprise and you have no way to hold it off. Unless you play as safe as possible, but then you're screwed when you discover your opponent is playing the heavy economy game. Its stuff like that which ultimately makes SC2 unfun...and I know that its not just me, because it happens to pro players on their streams *all the time*, in particular with MC's unstoppable 2-base all-ins (or really from any protoss). If cheeses was a auto win, like you seem to sugest, then every game would be nothing but chees. Last time I actually kept notes I did better versus chees then I did in longer games. I would also dispute your claim that playing against chees is not fun. Some of the most intense games I have had has been low eco baneling versus baneling battles or trying to stop a cannon rush. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
lmao, they are making clickbait out of stu's work :/ | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 24 2016 19:56 Musicus wrote: https://twitter.com/ESPN_Esports/status/691170095574323200 lmao, they are making clickbait out of stu's work :/ I couldn't care less about how ESPN market their material, but it kind of bothers me that people seem to conflate the tweet with the author of the article  | ||
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GizmoPT
Portugal3040 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On January 24 2016 20:52 Zealously wrote: I couldn't care less about how ESPN market their material, but it kind of bothers me that people seem to conflate the tweet with the author of the article Everybody thinks that stuchiu is saying it's WCS' faul that Flash, MMA, Rain, Fanta retired. Clearly it's not and clearly he doesn't say that. He says the system doesn't help and it doesn't. I'd really like people who say Korea is fine, to tell me what an upcoming player who is not on a Proleague team, didn't qualify for SSL and lost to a pro like Inno/Zest/Maru/Life in Code A, is supposed to do. That player is fucked and has nothing to play in until the next SSL/GSL qualifier in half a year. That the new WCS system doesn't help this player is a fact. People are just minsunderstanding the message. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On January 24 2016 21:01 GizmoPT wrote: thats what you get when you make article like that.. gg There is nothing wrong with the article. Sadly, it seems that the majority are over sensitive to anything said that could have the smallest negative meaning towards their game. People retire for their own reasons. The problem is that there are no new talent to replace the old one. Imagine in BW it was the time for Boxer and NaDa to move on but there were no FlaSh or FanTaSy to replace them. Is this a WCS system's fault? Not entirely but it is definitely playing a role. Not about banning Koreans from weekend tournaments, but about the lack of compensation for that loss. The money argument is invalid. People are not showing interest in StarCraft II for a reason thus we are not seeing new names coming. That is what the article is trying to say. | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 24 2016 21:19 Musicus wrote: Everybody thinks that stuchiu is saying it's WCS' faul that Flash, MMA, Rain, Fanta retired. Clearly it's not and clearly he doesn't say that. He says the system doesn't help and it doesn't. I'd really like people who say Korea is fine, to tell me what an upcoming player who is not on a Proleague team, didn't qualify for SSL and lost to a pro like Inno/Zest/Maru/Life in Code A, is supposed to do. That player is fucked and has nothing to play in until the next SSL/GSL qualifier in half a year. That the new WCS system doesn't help this player is a fact. People are just minsunderstanding the message. I also definitely get the feeling that some people are almost trying to be offended. Both Nathanias and Apollo essentially shit on stu's entire writing career (or at least his writing ability) on Twitter, and I'd expect them to at least read with two eyes before getting upset. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On January 24 2016 21:58 Zealously wrote: I also definitely get the feeling that some people are almost trying to be offended. Both Nathanias and Apollo essentially shit on stu's entire writing career (or at least his writing ability) on Twitter, and I'd expect them to at least read with two eyes before getting upset. I think they don't even realise who wrote this. How often did they say on stream that people should check the TL article on this or that before and how good they are. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 24 2016 22:08 Musicus wrote: I think they don't even realise who wrote this. How often did they say on stream that people should check the TL article on this or that before and how good they are. I don't think they read the whole article. Especially Apollo comes off as a condescending asshole whenever he talks about the new WCS and the Korean scene on Twitter. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Then again most of the people who attacked the article on twitter have their livelihoods which depend on WCS welfare. so all in all, i can comfortable say that blizzard is absolutely appalling in the way they do things. now the community is taking the backlash of their poor decision making. i encourage people to actually read the article instead of getting twisted panties over a tweet I don't think they read the whole article. Especially Apollo comes off as a condescending asshole whenever he talks about the new WCS and the Korean scene on Twitter. context? | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 24 2016 22:15 Incognoto wrote: Poor Stu, getting completely attacked by people who don't even know the context of the article; nor did they even fucking bother to read it. Then again most of the people who attacked the article on twitter have their livelihoods which depend on WCS welfare. so all in all, i can comfortable say that blizzard is absolutely appalling in the way they do things. now the community is taking the backlash of their poor decision making. i encourage people to actually read the article instead of getting twisted panties over a tweet Yeah it really sucks; certainly doesn't help how disgustingly clickbait-y the ESPN twitter made it sound when they linked it. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 24 2016 22:08 Musicus wrote: I think they don't even realise who wrote this. How often did they say on stream that people should check the TL article on this or that before and how good they are. People say all sorts of stupid things when they feel their livelihood is threatened. Those two have a big investment in the foreign scene, I can understand why they would get upset when they feel, wrongly, that it is under attack. They should however be able to see the situation clearly. The system might help them, I say might because I'm not sure the long term effect of sacrificing Korea for the foreign scene will be positive for either, but it is hurting others. No the system alone is not the reason for a decline in Starcrafts populrity, it is not even the main reason, and neither does the article say so. It is just one more hurdle in front of potential korean players. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 24 2016 22:15 Incognoto wrote: Poor Stu, getting completely attacked by people who don't even know the context of the article; nor did they even fucking bother to read it. Then again most of the people who attacked the article on twitter have their livelihoods which depend on WCS welfare. so all in all, i can comfortable say that blizzard is absolutely appalling in the way they do things. now the community is taking the backlash of their poor decision making. i encourage people to actually read the article instead of getting twisted panties over a tweet context? I agree the system itself is a very poor decision on Blizzards part, but their guilt does not extend to how people react to comments or articles about it. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves. The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes. I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague) | ||
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GizmoPT
Portugal3040 Posts
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RvB
Netherlands6205 Posts
On January 24 2016 21:19 Musicus wrote: Everybody thinks that stuchiu is saying it's WCS' faul that Flash, MMA, Rain, Fanta retired. Clearly it's not and clearly he doesn't say that. He says the system doesn't help and it doesn't. I'd really like people who say Korea is fine, to tell me what an upcoming player who is not on a Proleague team, didn't qualify for SSL and lost to a pro like Inno/Zest/Maru/Life in Code A, is supposed to do. That player is fucked and has nothing to play in until the next SSL/GSL qualifier in half a year. That the new WCS system doesn't help this player is a fact. People are just minsunderstanding the message. To be fair in BW you wouldn't have anything if you weren't on a team either. The only difference is that you had 1 more starleague a year (though not in the last 2 years). | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 24 2016 22:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: See my problem with this article is that i don't see why the wcs system should be tailored around "supporting new talent in south korea". It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves. The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes. I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague) The KeSPA teams work on that. There are online tournaments for amateurs etc. The problem is that there's now almost no opportunity to showcase new talent offline. And that's in part due to the WCS changes forcing Koreans out of IEMs and Dreamhacks, and in part due to the Korean leagues being reduced to 2 seasons a piece. Take Proleague for example. In BO5 format, more often than not, the reason you saw new and inexperienced players get playtime was A) it's a weaker team, they can take the risk; or B) it's a stronger team, A-team players are off to some tournament somewhere outside of Korea. Option A will always be a thing, as long as new players come up (which isn't really happening much atm). Option B is pretty much dead. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On January 24 2016 22:31 RvB wrote: To be fair in BW you wouldn't have anything if you weren't on a team either. The only difference is that you had 1 more starleague a year (though not in the last 2 years). But now Blizzard is involved at it's all part of WCS. They are arguing that they do not want a BW situation, so I think we should improve the system everywhere and make it better for all players. Not just outside of Korea. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18397 Posts
On January 24 2016 22:32 Elentos wrote: The KeSPA teams work on that. There are online tournaments for amateurs etc. The problem is that there's now almost no opportunity to showcase new talent. And that's in part due to the WCS changes forcing Koreans out of IEMs and Dreamhacks, and in part due to the Korean leagues being reduced to 2 seasons a piece. Take Proleague for example. In BO5 format, more often than not, the reason you saw new and inexperienced players get playtime was A) it's a weaker team, they can take the risk; or B) it's a stronger team, A-team players are off to some tournament somewhere outside of Korea. Option A will always be a thing, as long as new players come up. Option B is pretty much dead. How does IEM/DH help prosper talent in Korea? Only the best or the richest could go there. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 24 2016 22:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: See my problem with this article is that i don't see why the wcs system should be tailored around "supporting new talent in south korea". It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves. The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes. I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague) If you genuinely want answers and aren't just baiting, here's why: SK is a very cutthroat environment that's fantastic for taking in talent and producing very skilled players, but it doesn't have enough money for all of these very skilled players; these are the same players that in the past would travel to international events and destroy everyone who does not come from the same environment, that's how good they are. With this new system, they are no longer able to do so, meaning an SC2 progaming career is increasingly less sustainable for these skilled players, because there are fewer and fewer premier tournaments in Korea. The money needs to come from somewhere, and SC2 is not doing as well in Korea as many of you seem to think, or Wolf tweets about, it's just not the case. So to my mind, and that of others, it's taking away the potential livelihood of many very skilled players and redistributing it to others who are less deserving, simply for an artificial balance of nationalities, which I think is completely wrong. But this is TL and like 10 people are gonna jump and be like "nuh uh foreigners can be good too [insert person who literally trained in Korea for 6 months and played in the gsl and/or progleague] see?" and other asinine bullshit that i cant be fucked to respond to. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 24 2016 22:34 sharkie wrote: How does IEM/DH help prosper talent in Korea? Only the best or the richest could go there. I talk about it in the 2nd paragraph. They open up lineup spots in Proleague. They force teams to field other players than the ones they field every week. In 2015 Proleague IEM Katowice was the only thing that forced KT to deviate from fielding Flash/Life/Stats/TY/Zest every week, for example. It was one of the few times CJ didn't field herO and Jin Air didn't field Maru. Plus there's always a chance someone unexpected goes through the online qualifiers, I do seem to recall upsets happening. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 24 2016 22:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: See my problem with this article is that i don't see why the wcs system should be tailored around "supporting new talent in south korea". It makes very little sense to me, south korea has EVERYTHING already in place. They have the kespa teams which play in proleague, it is in their best interest to find new talent themselves. The same wasn't true for the foreign scene, because there wasn't even the incentive to play sc2 at all before the changes. I can see that we have a problem in korea with newcomers, but i think blizzard should not be the one who has to deal with it at all, south korean teams have that responsibility, especially because they actually should care (proleague) Why would there be a insentive for proleague teams to foster and pay talent which have zero competitions to compete in? They allready have big enough squads for proleague, if they compete in gsl they are just additional competition to their existing players. I sincerly doubt it is even remotly economically viable for them to pay a living wage to players without any competitions to compete in. If those players could compete and get money and torunament experience it might be possible but Blizzard denied them that possibility. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 24 2016 22:34 sharkie wrote: How does IEM/DH help prosper talent in Korea? Only the best or the richest could go there. If you look at the players competing in foreign torunaments over the last years you will quickly notice that this is nto true, | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 24 2016 22:32 Elentos wrote: The KeSPA teams work on that. There are online tournaments for amateurs etc. The problem is that there's now almost no opportunity to showcase new talent offline. And that's in part due to the WCS changes forcing Koreans out of IEMs and Dreamhacks, and in part due to the Korean leagues being reduced to 2 seasons a piece. Take Proleague for example. In BO5 format, more often than not, the reason you saw new and inexperienced players get playtime was A) it's a weaker team, they can take the risk; or B) it's a stronger team, A-team players are off to some tournament somewhere outside of Korea. Option A will always be a thing, as long as new players come up (which isn't really happening much atm). Option B is pretty much dead. If the Kespa teams actually work on it i don't see the problem. You talk about chance to see the new players, why is that even necessary? It's good enough if they train with the team and get better (till they get the chance to play in proleague) Why don't these newcomers play in olimoleague (or other online cups)? The point is that i really don't think blizzard should be responsible for this in an ecosystem which is already in place for the most part. Either the ecosystem is interested in finding new players (and there actually are young people interested in playing the game, which might actually be the main problem here) or it is not. Could there be more done in korea? Yes, but that should be on Kespa/the teams. On January 24 2016 22:34 207aicila wrote: If you genuinely want answers and aren't just baiting, here's why: SK is a very cutthroat environment that's fantastic for taking in talent and producing very skilled players, but it doesn't have enough money for all of these very skilled players; these are the same players that in the past would travel to international events and destroy everyone who does not come from the same environment, that's how good they are. With this new system, they are no longer able to do so, meaning an SC2 progaming career is increasingly less sustainable for these skilled players, because there are fewer and fewer premier tournaments in Korea. The money needs to come from somewhere, and SC2 is not doing as well in Korea as many of you seem to think, or Wolf tweets about, it's just not the case. So to my mind, and that of others, it's taking away the potential livelihood of many very skilled players and redistributing it to others who are less deserving, simply for an artificial balance of nationalities, which I think is completely wrong. But this is TL and like 10 people are gonna jump and be like "nuh uh foreigners can be good too [insert person who literally trained in Korea for 6 months and played in the gsl and/or progleague] see?" and other asinine bullshit that i cant be fucked to respond to. You talk about players which are already progamers, it's more about new players though (which would never be able to travel to these foreign events in the first place) If Korea isn't interested in sc2 to the extent that we can have teams with 15 players each, then that's the sad reality. I don't think blizzard has to do even more (they pretty much already sponsor all of korea ...), the scene has to adapt in this case. Which means: Less players overall. That sucks for anybody who loves korean sc2 (let me be clear here, i am one of those ), but that's the reality we have to deal with.On January 24 2016 22:45 ddayzy wrote: Why would there be a insentive for proleague teams to foster and pay talent which have zero competitions to compete in? They allready have big enough squads for proleague, if they compete in gsl they are just additional competition to their existing players. I sincerly doubt it is even remotly economically viable for them to pay a living wage to players without any competitions to compete in. If those players could compete and get money and torunament experience it might be possible but Blizzard denied them that possibility. What do you mean? If players retire from proleague squads it should be natural to replace them, no? There will be a point where korean sc2 teams need new players for proleague alone, if that isn't the case right now because the scene simply is too small, then so be it i guess. Some may argue that blizzard is already artificially creating and keeping the scene, i simply find it very naive and irrational to argue that they should do even more, especially when Kespa/the teams could do more themselves. | ||
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corydoras
161 Posts
And he deserves apologies from Apollo and especially Nathanias. I'm really appalled now because both Apollo and Nate are among my favourite casters :/ | ||
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GizmoPT
Portugal3040 Posts
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On January 24 2016 23:37 corydoras wrote: Holy smokes. I don't wanna be in stuchiu's skin now. One of the best if not the best SC2 community writers is being crapped on by two of the leading casters only because ESPN made a clickbaiting tweet. I hope it doesn't discourage stu from writing as much as he does. And he deserves apologies from Apollo and especially Nathanias. I'm really appalled now because both Apollo and Nate are among my favourite casters :/ Did Nathanias say anything else than just calling the article awful? Like why? Just bashing does no good. I enjoyed the article btw, you write very well Stuchiu! | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
What do you mean? If players retire from proleague squads it should be natural to replace them, no? There will be a point where korean sc2 teams need new players for proleague alone, if that isn't the case right now because the scene simply is too small, then so be it i guess. Some may argue that blizzard is already artificially creating and keeping the scene, i simply find it very naive and irrational to argue that they should do even more, especially when Kespa/the teams could do more themselves. This is a very basic concept if you have any experience with economics. If people want to go pro at something they need to be able to live off it. Having a talent sustained talent pool with people practicing several hours a day in the hope they might get a spot when a proleague team finally needs a replacement is not a plan for the future any sensible person would choose, If you treat it like a hobby you won't be good enough, people quit school to focus on this game. When there is two or three open spots on proleague teams in a given year, and there are allready a few established players without any teams, there is no way you would try to make a career here and you can't do it as a hobby. The solution, according to you, is for proleague to somehow give them a financial incentive. For that to be a viable solution it needs to be possible economically. I sincerly doubt proleague teams have the resources required to keep a bunch of new players on retainer for when they will need them. Unless there is a way for the proleague teams to make money of their extra players there is no way they can pay them and if they can't pay them there is no reason for those players to keep playing at a high enough level. One way to do that would be to allow them to play in overseas tournaments. With that in place even if a player didn't get into a kespa team they could start playing in foreign tournaments. Please do explain what economically viable solutions kespa could come up with on their own? I'm not sure you understand what the words naive and irrational mean. Please explain how wanting Blizzard to support the scene as a whole as oposed to just one part of it is naive and irrational. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 24 2016 23:55 GizmoPT wrote: He can be a great writer even the best.. but first SC2 article being negative isn't good no matter how you spin it, That's actually a fair point tbh. I can see why it was written, but it's extremely negative for a first one on espn. On January 24 2016 23:58 ddayzy wrote: This is a very basic concept if you have any experience with economics. If people want to go pro at something they need to be able to live off it. Having a talent sustained talent pool with people practicing several hours a day in the hope they might get a spot when a proleague team finally needs a replacement is not a plan for the future any sensible person would choose, If you treat it like a hobby you won't be good enough, people quit school to focus on this game. When there is two or three open spots on proleague teams in a given year, and there are allready a few established players without any teams, there is no way you would try to make a career here and you can't do it as a hobby. The solution, according to you, is for proleague to somehow give them a financial incentive. For that to be a viable solution it needs to be possible economically. I sincerly doubt proleague teams have the resources required to keep a bunch of new players on retainer for when they will need them. Unless there is a way for the proleague teams to make money of their extra players there is no way they can pay them and if they can't pay them there is no reason for those players to keep playing at a high enough level. One way to do that would be to allow them to play in overseas tournaments. With that in place even if a player didn't get into a kespa team they could start playing in foreign tournaments. Please do explain what economically viable solutions kespa could come up with on their own? I'm not sure you understand what the words naive and irrational mean. Please explain how wanting Blizzard to support the scene as a whole as oposed to just one part of it is naive and irrational. You realize that this is the reason why blizzard gave foreigners something to play in? Because there was no incentive for foreigners to become pro. There IS actually stuff in korea which might be interesting for new players, be it a place in a proleague team or advancing to code A. That's pretty much how it was done in korea since BW tbh, people wanted to get good at the game to get on a team and be in proleague. That's how the korean scene functions since forever. Right now people simply choose lol over starcraft. That players don't get paid for training absurd amounts of hours is another topic entirely, but it isn't a new one and it apparently didn't matter in the past. You still didn't give a good argument on why blizzard should feel the need to do extra stuff for korea alone, they already do a lot and the rest simply comes down to the korean ecosystem. | ||
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munch
Mute City2363 Posts
On January 24 2016 23:56 DJHelium wrote: https://twitter.com/ApolloSC2/status/691272358531850240 Did Nathanias say anything else than just calling the article awful? Like why? Just bashing does no good. I enjoyed the article btw, you write very well Stuchiu! | ||
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corydoras
161 Posts
On January 24 2016 23:59 The_Red_Viper wrote: That's actually a fair point tbh. I can see why it was written, but it's extremely negative for a first one on espn. It is a fair point. Which was, however, not the point Apollo and Nate appeared to be making. Anyway, Apollo apologized so now I can only hope that Nate's 'shitter' tweet gets revoked one way or another. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:06 corydoras wrote: It is a fair point. Which was, however, not the point Apollo and Nate appeared to be making. Anyway, Apollo apologized so now I can only hope that Nate's 'shitter' tweet gets revoked one way or another. Nah sure, apollo and nathanias simply didn't read it at all (that's at least the way you have to see it if you don't wanna call them stupid/untrustworthy) | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
The irony is that it seems he is shitting on stuchiu just for the chance to be an ass lol. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:10 Musicus wrote: https://twitter.com/nathaniastv/status/691276656623751169 So he called the article awful without reading it? :3 | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:10 Musicus wrote: https://twitter.com/nathaniastv/status/691276656623751169 rofl, Nathanias earlier today (talking about tweet+article): edit: what above wrote | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:10 Silvana wrote: Calling stuchiu "a shitter who did it for the chance to be an ass" says more about you than about stuchiu, Nathanias. The irony is that it seems he is shitting on stuchiu just for the chance to be an ass lol. Haha yeah exactly. Now he says he didn't comment on it because he didn't read it while tweeting this: On January 25 2016 00:12 Silvana wrote: Haha nice try. But he explicitly said "both are awful" https://twitter.com/nathaniastv/status/691173835169742848 edit: silvana too fast for me  | ||
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corydoras
161 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:10 Musicus wrote: https://twitter.com/nathaniastv/status/691276656623751169 If you read the whole thread of tweets, I'm not so sure about this explanation. But at least it indicates Nate sees where he went wrong and that's a start... | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:13 corydoras wrote: If you read the whole thread of tweets, I'm not so sure about this explanation. But at least it indicates Nate sees where he went wrong and that's a start... He sees where he went wrong? Then apologize, don't pretend you didn't do anything wrong... | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:15 Musicus wrote: https://twitter.com/nathaniastv/status/691278248106418176 gotta be quick on the twitter! I feel an apology to Stuchiu is in order, heh | ||
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corydoras
161 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:14 Silvana wrote: He sees where he went wrong? Then apologize, don't pretend you didn't do anything wrong... I'm trying to be optimistic. I mean: he could keep defending the whole 'shitter' patch he was trying to attach to stuchiu. Now he's just trying to defend himself. Maybe not in the most appropriate way, but it seems he knows he's guilty | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
But I can't help and often feel like his work is tainted with a kind of nostalgia/desilusion that bothers me. I don't even talk about his tweets, which I don't agree with 50% of them, 50 other % I don't even get the point of relating everything to korean scene. (eg: last tweet to harstem). Anyway for a first article on ESPN, the tone and subject chosen was not great. Plus the huge clickbait it was obviously asking for a shitstorm on twitter. edit: noone does that in any other esport, even in Lol where korea dominates almost as hard | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
Now you can debate whether it should help like TRV does, but that's a different topic. | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:25 Musicus wrote: I still wonder what Apollo finds debatable about Korea not seeing enough new talent for sc2 and that the new WCS doesn't help. Now you can debate whether it should help like TRV does, but that's a different topic. The answer probably lies in that (funny) reddit post he did back in the day when WCS changes were announced. I think it's something along the lines "Koreans get more prize money from Blizzard" and assuming that there will Global Events (LOL). | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:18 Ppjack wrote: (eg: last tweet to harstem). This is his last tweet to Harstem. I have no idea what you're talking about on that end. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:25 Musicus wrote: I still wonder what Apollo finds debatable about Korea not seeing enough new talent for sc2 and that the new WCS doesn't help. Now you can debate whether it should help like TRV does, but that's a different topic. I don't think people find it debatable as much as they just generally react poorly to inconvenient truths. This is the livinghood of a bunch of good people after all. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:29 Silvana wrote: The answer probably lies in that (funny) reddit post he did back in the day when WCS changes were announced. I think it's something along the lines "Koreans get more prize money from Blizzard" and assuming that there will Global Events (LOL). LOL indeed . That prize money will go to the Innos/Life/Zests who are already in a healthy spot anyway. Open qualifiers for lots of different tournaments is what Korea needs and so far it only has two less. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:32 Musicus wrote: LOL indeed . That prize money will go to the Innos/Life/Zests who are already in a healthy spot anyway. Open qualifiers for lots of different tournaments is what Korea needs and so far it only has two less.To be honest, did the 2015 solve this issue? I mean even when the weekend tournaments were opened, they were dominated by Inno / Life / Zest / sOs tier... | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:25 Musicus wrote: I still wonder what Apollo finds debatable about Korea not seeing enough new talent for sc2 and that the new WCS doesn't help. Now you can debate whether it should help like TRV does, but that's a different topic. Well, even stuchiu calls the article debatable. Though I agree, Korea not seeing much new talent and the new WCS not helping is barely debatable, I do think he'd have an easier time now if half the article wasn't about the retirements of people who didn't necessarily retire because of WCS. It'll cause people to stop reading and leave them with the wrong impression. | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:32 Musicus wrote: LOL indeed . That prize money will go to the Innos/Life/Zests who are already in a healthy spot anyway. Open qualifiers for lots of different tournaments is what Korea needs and so far it only has two less.Well Code A gave a nice amount of money to each player compared to previous years, so they've improved a bit in that aspect. What is fucking them so hard is that there's 1 less season of GSL and SSL, and that one doesn't even have Challenger anymore. This means the total prize money for this year, while bigger, is less distributed. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:36 Silvana wrote: Well Code A gave a nice amount of money to each player compared to previous years, so they've improved a bit in that aspect. What is fucking them so hard is that there's 1 less season of GSL and SSL, and that one doesn't even have Challenger anymore. This means the total prize money for this year, while bigger, is less distributed. Yep, the prize money beeing less top heavy is a good start. Now they just need to spread it out over more tournaments instead of less. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:35 Elentos wrote: Well, even stuchiu calls the article debatable. Though I agree, Korea not seeing much new talent and the new WCS not helping is barely debatable, I do think he'd have an easier time now if half the article wasn't about the retirements of people who didn't necessarily retire because of WCS. It'll cause people to stop reading and leave them with the wrong impression. Yeah for sure, the whole "retirement of the big 4" section made life hard for stuchiu :/. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:39 Musicus wrote: Yep, the prize money beeing less top heavy is a good start. Now they just need to spread it out over more tournaments instead of less. Well, it's not even that it's less top heavy but more like that the foundation was strengthened. The winner of Code S gets the same amount as last year, for example, but everyone below him now gets more reasonable amounts because the prize pool was upped (funnily enough GSL is still way less then any season of WCS last year). I think NASL sound guy finally found his match in ESPN twitter guy. | ||
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ETisME
12387 Posts
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:30 Elentos wrote: This is his last tweet to Harstem. https://twitter.com/TLstuchiu/status/689848055089082369 I have no idea what you're talking about on that end. It was PtitDrogo actually. But anyway, that's just me not being as hardcore, and Stuchiu tweets whatever he wants | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:46 Ppjack wrote: It was PtitDrogo actually. But anyway, that's just me not being as hardcore, and Stuchiu tweets whatever he wants https://twitter.com/TLstuchiu/status/690973247748202497 Eh, it's a throwback to one of the greatest tournaments ever in HotS that was defined by the epic run of Polt (using his own style others don't really play) against Protoss during a time where Protoss was really strong. And in the end there was one Protoss who beat him and won the tournament. It fits pretty well with uThermal's DH run if you think about it (and I'm not sure he could have found a comparable run ignoring Koreans)In other news: | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
A) Factually wrong, only Flash actually retired before the WCS announcement (though MMA would have retired regardless). B) As if these players didn't know about those things before they were announced. There were rumors about the changes well over a week before the official announcement C) The article makes a point to say the WCS changes are not the reason they retired, so what are those changes "used for" in that context? Nothing. The part about retirements is not about WCS changes. I get the tweet is a piece of shit but don't project things onto the article it doesn't say. | ||
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Jampackedeon
United States2053 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Starcraft is nate's livelihood so it makes sense that he wouldn't be interesting in giving it credence. I think that were I in his shoes (or any foreigner casters shoe's) I would do my best to not comment on the article. Perhaps be a bit more vocal about Blizzards (borderline racist) policies. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 01:37 Incognoto wrote: To be fair I think that Nathanias hasn't read the article in its entirety. Probably. Last thing he said was that he hadn't read it at all and who knows if he had time to read it since then. His tweet sounds like that if he read it, he stopped reading right under Fantasy's picture | ||
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On January 25 2016 01:37 Incognoto wrote: To be fair I think that Nathanias hasn't read the article in its entirety and is assuming that it's a "dead gaem" article (which it is not! on the contrary it's an article which signals a pretty big problem in how Blizzard is stifling the Korean scene). Starcraft is nate's livelihood so it makes sense that he wouldn't be interesting in giving it credence. I think that were I in his shoes (or any foreigner casters shoe's) I would do my best to not comment on the article. Perhaps be a bit more vocal about Blizzards (borderline racist) policies. Probably shouldn't comment on what the article is about without reading it. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
.Although this one is worth posting haha. So classy. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:00 Musicus wrote: Well shit just hit the fan when Thorin entered the conversation. Can't even link all those tweets here .Although this one is worth posting haha. https://twitter.com/LiquidTLO/status/691304335486144513 I mean it's not like people try hard to understand what Thorin is saying, best example being | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
To be honest, I don't find the tweet bad itself, pure clickbait. Nothing more, there is nothing "offensive" about it and this whole twitter drama is stupid... | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
I definitely agree with him on this particular issue though. | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:45 Elentos wrote: Well, it's not even that it's less top heavy but more like that the foundation was strengthened. The winner of Code S gets the same amount as last year, for example, but everyone below him now gets more reasonable amounts because the prize pool was upped (funnily enough GSL is still way less then any season of WCS last year). https://twitter.com/Liquid_Bunny/status/691249854270590976 I think NASL sound guy finally found his match in ESPN twitter guy. Maybe it's the same guy NASL sound guy pls | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On January 25 2016 01:48 DJHelium wrote: Probably shouldn't comment on what the article is about without reading it. Talking smack about things you don't know about is standard internet behavior. | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:09 royalroadweed wrote: Talking smack about things you don't know about is standard internet behavior. It's human behavior, made embarrassingly visible through the internet | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
Anyone from around the world can play in WCS and even Korean players can "buy in" so WCS is neither continental, nor national. Sometimes, I feel like Twitter is a problem for humanity. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:22 Elentos wrote: https://twitter.com/RotterdaM08/status/691304017335549954 Anyone from around the world can play in WCS and even Korean players can "buy in" so WCS is neither continental, nor national. Sometimes, I feel like Twitter is a problem for humanity. You really need to take a break from twitter and stop copying every tweet here man | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:22 Elentos wrote: https://twitter.com/RotterdaM08/status/691304017335549954 Anyone from around the world can play in WCS and even Korean players can "buy in" so WCS is neither continental, nor national. Sometimes, I feel like Twitter is a problem for humanity. But it's easier to justify this crap and lash out at anyone criticising it if you ignore that simple fact. Not gonna lie, lost a lot of respect for these community pillars for this... | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:24 WrathSCII wrote: You really need to take a break from twitter and stop copying every tweet here man I only take ones I have to say something about. You have no idea how this thread would look if every tweet was copied. Would be a giant mess | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:26 Elentos wrote: I only take ones I have to say something about. You have no idea how this thread would look if every tweet was copied. Would be a giant mess Don't worry I did not mean anything with what I said, I'm actually reading the tweets myself on twitter and can't believe those people are called "community figures". This is literally a -100 IQ level of tweeting... | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:31 WrathSCII wrote: Don't worry I did not mean anything with what I said, I'm actually reading the tweets myself on twitter and can't believe those people are called "community figures". This is literally a -100 IQ level of tweeting... That's why I think Twitter is a problem. "Important" people whose voices are heard/accepted and influence others say things that shouldn't be said in public. Like, they'd never have kindergarden arguments like these out in the open street when 5 people are watching, now they're doing this in front of hundreds. And it's not like they're random fans getting into arguments. They're people who are very much directly involved in the scene. I mean, it's like Lilbow at Blizzcon, really. | ||
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Jealous
10140 Posts
On January 25 2016 00:39 Musicus wrote: Yep, the prize money beeing less top heavy is a good start. Now they just need to spread it out over more tournaments instead of less. Maybe they should just give every player who enters any tournament prize money, and make it no less than 50% of what the winner gets. And they should get a "Participation" award. No, a trophy even! Like the ones that 8 year old basketball players get when every team in the league makes it to play-offs and their team goes 0-2 in the QF and loses. They still get a trophy, why can't our flunky foreign players? That would surely motivate them to come to tournaments and overlook the fact that the whole system was rigged so that they have more incentive to get rocked in front of an audience. But not rocked too hard. That would be too embarrassing. That's why, no Koreans please. Just prize money for everyone, good feels, national pride and fans' player hype without legitimate challenge and accomplishment. Yea, that is exactly what a competitive game needs. Behold, people, the fans of SC2 have spoken: | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:36 Elentos wrote: That's why I think Twitter is a problem. "Important" people whose voices are heard/accepted and influence others say things that shouldn't be said in public. Like, they'd never have kindergarden arguments like these out in the open street when 5 people are watching, now they're doing this in front of hundreds. And it's not like they're random fans getting into arguments. They're people who are very much directly involved in the scene. Their loss really. Those of us who have been following esports for a while know how Thorin is and that's no surprise, but when he's actually mostly correct, their reactions make them look like a bunch of pillocks, so they only stand to lose respect and credibility. | ||
Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:36 Elentos wrote: That's why I think Twitter is a problem. "Important" people whose voices are heard/accepted and influence others say things that shouldn't be said in public. Like, they'd never have kindergarden arguments like these out in the open street when 5 people are watching, now they're doing this in front of hundreds. And it's not like they're random fans getting into arguments. They're people who are very much directly involved in the scene. This is why Riot pretty much forces their pro players to go through social media training | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On January 25 2016 01:48 DJHelium wrote: Probably shouldn't comment on what the article is about without reading it. I read the article. "The Korean scene is slowly dying out and the new WCS 2016 system does nothin to help it." Who sets WCS 2016? Blizzard.. Honestly I just have popcorn here with me, seeing foreigners and those who cast them crying about how they're finally free from Korea's reign of terror. My respect for the foreign starcraft community descends a little more each day. I'm just hoping that the mediatic shit-storm makes Blizzards re-evaluate their policy. The mixing of Korea and the foreign land was really good for both scenes: Koreans and foreigners. We were starting to get to the point where it was slowly become ONE big huge scene and it was awesome to see. Now we have this big ugly divide. | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
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Jealous
10140 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:44 Incognoto wrote: I read the article. "The Korean scene is slowly dying out and the new WCS 2016 system does nothin to help it." Who sets WCS 2016? Blizzard.. Honestly I just have popcorn here with me, seeing foreigners and those who cast them crying about how they're finally free from Korea's reign of terror. My respect for the foreign starcraft community descends a little more each day. I'm just hoping that the mediatic shit-storm makes Blizzards re-evaluate their policy. The mixing of Korea and the foreign land was really good for both scenes: Koreans and foreigners. We were starting to get to the point where it was slowly become ONE big huge scene and it was awesome to see. Now we have this big ugly divide. Some public schools make no distinction between mentally handicapped students and regular students, mixing them freely in classes. The majority, however, put all the mentally handicapped in a Special Education class so that they don't disrupt regular students and waste their class time, while providing them with a caring and nurturing environment that doesn't place judgment or unfair expectations on them. This is ultimately better for the Special Education participants, because they can associate more freely with others who suffer from limited mental faculties without the social pressure of their more able peers. They have a lower chance for depression, and have higher self-esteem. The standards for success are lower, so everyone can succeed. This in turn is more convenient and rewarding for the parents/guardians/fans of these students. Blizzard simply took a system that was already in place elsewhere, saw the benefits, and applied it. EDIT: The above is a metaphor. | ||
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SmykuToronto
Poland269 Posts
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:54 Jealous wrote: Some public schools make no distinction between mentally handicapped students and regular students, mixing them freely in classes. The majority, however, put all the mentally handicapped in a Special Education class so that they don't disrupt regular students and waste their class time, while providing them with a caring and nurturing environment that doesn't place judgment or unfair expectations on them. This is ultimately better for the Special Education participants, because they can associate more freely with others who suffer from limited mental faculties without the social pressure of their more able peers; they have a lower chance for depression, and have higher self-esteem. Blizzard simply took a system already in place and saw the benefits. Bwahahahahahaaa! Btw, is that quote in your signature real? | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:52 Silvana wrote: I hate and I feel kinda embarrassed about the fact that our community figures, the ones that give visibility to our scene, act like the average random Joe Rage on the internet. I wish they were more professional. We need to push for better standards. They have to be over sensitive over every little shit. It all started with a stupid tweet from ESPN THAT ITSELF WAS NOT EVEN INSULTING OR ANYTHING. Yet lets enjoy the ride and go spam twitter with Bullshitting about to show that we care about the game. Now we are fighting each other and calling each other names and who slept with more girls than the other... just ugh. | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:44 Incognoto wrote: I read the article. "The Korean scene is slowly dying out and the new WCS 2016 system does nothin to help it." Who sets WCS 2016? Blizzard.. Honestly I just have popcorn here with me, seeing foreigners and those who cast them crying about how they're finally free from Korea's reign of terror. My respect for the foreign starcraft community descends a little more each day. I'm just hoping that the mediatic shit-storm makes Blizzards re-evaluate their policy. The mixing of Korea and the foreign land was really good for both scenes: Koreans and foreigners. We were starting to get to the point where it was slowly become ONE big huge scene and it was awesome to see. Now we have this big ugly divide. Do you watch League ? The only think that lacks in this WCS system is more than only one global event. If you want to watch koreans go watch korean leagues (and I do). But stop complaining about them being held out from every foreign tournament, everyone has its own and Blizzard tried. The purpose is to have a sustainable foreign scene in the long term (aka not dead game), not tournaments organized for koreans beneficiting of the korean ladder/infrastructures/organisations and so on, to come and grab the money. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
If foreigners were actually good at the game then this wouldn't be a problem. Now, foreigners being bad isn't a problem in itself, but it becomes a problem when you legitimately stigmatize a category of players from what are supposed to be open and global events. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:54 Jealous wrote: Some public schools make no distinction between mentally handicapped students and regular students, mixing them freely in classes. The majority, however, put all the mentally handicapped in a Special Education class so that they don't disrupt regular students and waste their class time, while providing them with a caring and nurturing environment that doesn't place judgment or unfair expectations on them. This is ultimately better for the Special Education participants, because they can associate more freely with others who suffer from limited mental faculties without the social pressure of their more able peers. They have a lower chance for depression, and have higher self-esteem. The standards for success are lower, so everyone can succeed. This in turn is more convenient and rewarding for the parents/guardians/fans of these students. Blizzard simply took a system that was already in place elsewhere, saw the benefits, and applied it. Well, now that is offensive... This thread is sad. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:59 Ppjack wrote: Do you watch League ? The only think that lacks in this WCS system is more than only one global event. If you want to watch koreans go watch korean leagues (and I do). But stop complaining about them being held out from every foreign tournament, everyone has its own and Blizzard tried. The purpose is to have a sustainable foreign scene in the long term (aka not dead game), not tournaments organized for koreans beneficiting of the korean ladder/infrastructures/organisations and so on, to come and grab the money. "If you want to watch koreans go watch korean leagues" until you can't because they all retire because there's not enough money for all the talent that's already there. Not some potential talent that may or may not come when these players stop shitposting on reddit/twitter and start practicing for real, but some talent that's already there and the best in the world, mind you. And we have no proof that this change will actually lead to a "sustainable foreign scene". In fact I don't understand your obsession with a "sustainable foreign scene". On January 25 2016 02:59 Incognoto wrote: Where there's smoke, there's fire. People wouldn't be whining so hard if there wasn't an actual problem somewhere. Namely, stifling Koreans because we don't like Asian people being better at Starcraft than white people. :/ If foreigners were actually good at the game then this wouldn't be a problem. Now, foreigners being bad isn't a problem in itself, but it becomes a problem when you legitimately stigmatize a category of players from what are supposed to be open and global events. Big +1 from me. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:54 Jealous wrote: Some public schools make no distinction between mentally handicapped students and regular students, mixing them freely in classes. The majority, however, put all the mentally handicapped in a Special Education class so that they don't disrupt regular students and waste their class time, while providing them with a caring and nurturing environment that doesn't place judgment or unfair expectations on them. This is ultimately better for the Special Education participants, because they can associate more freely with others who suffer from limited mental faculties without the social pressure of their more able peers. They have a lower chance for depression, and have higher self-esteem. The standards for success are lower, so everyone can succeed. This in turn is more convenient and rewarding for the parents/guardians/fans of these students. Blizzard simply took a system that was already in place elsewhere, saw the benefits, and applied it. Shots fired! | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:59 Incognoto wrote: Where there's smoke, there's fire. People wouldn't be whining so hard if there wasn't an actual problem somewhere. where there is smoke .. you have no idea where the actual fire is. people misdiagnose why they are pissed off or bored or unhappy a billion times a day on this planet. everything from the cocaine drug economy to the sugar-filled-soft-drink market rests upon the average person misdiagnosing why they are unhappy or bored. | ||
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Jealous
10140 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:01 Pr0wler wrote: Well, now that is offensive... This thread is sad. Sorry, was meant to be a metaphor. EDIT: Post revised to reflect this. | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:59 Incognoto wrote: Where there's smoke, there's fire. People wouldn't be whining so hard if there wasn't an actual problem somewhere. Namely, stifling Koreans because we don't like Asian people being better at Starcraft than white people. :/ If foreigners were actually good at the game then this wouldn't be a problem. Now, foreigners being bad isn't a problem in itself, but it becomes a problem when you legitimately stigmatize a category of players from what are supposed to be open and global events. Sigh here we go again - Not all foreigners are white - The Chinese suck just as much as the rest Whatever side of the discussion you're on, don't make it about race pls, because it's not about that | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:01 Pr0wler wrote: Well, now that is offensive... This thread is sad. well its a russian typing, what do you expect? User was warned for this post | ||
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Jealous
10140 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:08 Luolis wrote: well its a russian typing, what do you expect? The war ended in 1918, calm down brother. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
1918? Nice history m8 :D | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:06 Penev wrote: Sigh here we go again - Not all foreigners are white - The Chinese suck just as much as the rest Whatever side of the discussion you're on, don't make it about race pls, because it's not about that You're right, this has nothing to do with ethnicity. I should have been more precise about that point instead of being pointlessly vague. Basically my problem is that we're cutting the players who come from the strongest scene (Korea) out of events which are supposed to be open and global. The sole reason is that they're too good compared to the rest of the world. The Korean scene was already borderline stifled and thanks to Blizzard's meddling and pampering of foreigners, it is already more so. Sucks to be Korean if you want to play Starcraft! | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:01 207aicila wrote: "If you want to watch koreans go watch korean leagues" until you can't because they all retire because there's not enough money for all the talent that's already there. Not some potential talent that may or may not come when these players stop shitposting on reddit/twitter and start practicing for real, but some talent that's already there and the best in the world, mind you. And we have no proof that this change will actually lead to a "sustainable foreign scene". In fact I don't understand your obsession with a "sustainable foreign scene". Until you can prove that having only a korean scene where no foreigner can enter because of its own structure is good for starcraft2, I will support the developpment of foreign (aka fucking rest of the world) esport. Starcraft does not live in its own time. If any game can be as sustainable as cs:go or league in term of business opportunities and entertainment, you should always follow this path and developp your market as much as you can. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:13 Ppjack wrote: Until you can prove that having only a korean scene where no foreigner can enter because of its own structure is good for starcraft2, I will support the developpment of foreign (aka fucking rest of the world) esport. Is the fact that previous DreamHack events had better viewership proof enough? If not, I'm willing to wait to make the same argument when numbers are low for other events as well. On January 25 2016 03:13 Ppjack wrote: Starcraft does not live in its own time. If any game can be as sustainable as cs:go or league in term of business opportunities and entertainment, you should always follow this path and developp your market as much as you can. Oh I see, you're one of those esports zealots who thinks every game that doesn't have 50 million viewers (because League and CS:GO totally aren't exceptions) is dead or that somehow this is a feasible goal for SC2, a much more niche game in a niche and declining genre. Carry on then. Actually no, feel free to teach more about this scene that I have followed for almost 6 years (and BW for much longer before that), it's quite amusing. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:13 Ppjack wrote: Until you can prove that having only a korean scene where no foreigner can enter because of its own structure is good for starcraft2, I will support the developpment of foreign (aka fucking rest of the world) esport. Starcraft does not live in its own time. If any game can be as sustainable as cs:go or league in term of business opportunities and entertainment, you should always follow this path and developp your market as much as you can. There is nothing wrong with supporting the foreigner scene, however it must not be done in a way which is unfair to Korean players; especially not on the basis that Korean players are too good. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:12 Incognoto wrote: You're right, this has nothing to do with ethnicity. I should have been more precise about that point instead of being pointlessly vague. Basically my problem is that we're cutting the players who come from the strongest scene (Korea) out of events which are supposed to be open and global. The sole reason is that they're too good compared to the rest of the world. The Korean scene was already borderline stifled and thanks to Blizzard's meddling and pampering of foreigners, it is already more so. Sucks to be Korean if you want to play Starcraft! I'm still hoping for Blizz to intervene and make sure we have at least some global events where Koreans and foreigners meet.. You guys fought in WWI as well? WWII still a long time ago idd tho | ||
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HsDLTitich
Italy830 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:59 Ppjack wrote: Do you watch League ? The only think that lacks in this WCS system is more than only one global event. If you want to watch koreans go watch korean leagues (and I do). But stop complaining about them being held out from every foreign tournament, everyone has its own and Blizzard tried. The purpose is to have a sustainable foreign scene in the long term (aka not dead game), not tournaments organized for koreans beneficiting of the korean ladder/infrastructures/organisations and so on, to come and grab the money. So a european organization held a tournament in Europe, why were americans allowed to come and grab our money? This makes no sense. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:20 Penev wrote: I'm still hoping for Blizz to intervene and make sure we have at least some global events where Koreans and foreigners meet.. yes, that would be a lot more fair. it's fine to have some regional events, but you can't lock all koreans from starcraft events which don't take place in Korea. I think blizzard should seriously re-evaluate this aspect and look to provide all scenes with some proper treatment. We're looking at diminished viewer numbers in SC2 and attributing that to Koreans dominating foreigners. But that simply is not the case. | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:16 207aicila wrote: Is the fact that previous DreamHack events had better viewership proof enough? If not, I'm willing to wait to make the same argument when numbers are low for other events as well. Oh I see, you're one of those esports zealots who thinks every game that doesn't have 50 million viewers (because League and CS:GO totally aren't exceptions) is dead or that somehow this is a feasible goal for SC2, a much more niche game in a niche and declining genre. Carry on then. Actually no, feel free to teach more about this scene that I have followed for almost 6 years (and BW for much longer before that), it's quite amusing. I did not follow broodwar, and I think this korean dominance nostalgia is why this community is so split. Esport has evolved and we should do everything we can to make it global. Starcraft2 is already a niche game in itself (rts genre) don't make it more niche (only korean ecosystem viable) | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:21 HsDLTitich wrote: So a european organization held a tournament in Europe, why were americans allowed to come and grab our money? This makes no sense. Because starcraft is split between foreigners / korea. It Blizzard wanted to make it totally continentally locked, they could. That would just make no sense | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:19 WrathSCII wrote: Is it me or the shitposting slowly started to crawl here on this thread from twitter? Well duh, it's about WCS, it was going to happen eventually. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:19 WrathSCII wrote: Is it me or the shitposting slowly started to crawl here on this thread from twitter? I think it occurs whenever this topic comes up, it's a heated issue and one that rarely people seem to be reasonable on. | ||
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IceBerrY
Germany220 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:19 WrathSCII wrote: Is it me or the shitposting slowly started to crawl here on this thread from twitter? It is a long time trend on TL. If i want to see a discussion, i am prefering reddit. Sad but true. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
I'm not going to say that this change alone will destabilize Korea sc2 for 2016. The trend has been around for a while. But this change does not do anything to help and even makes the korea scene weaker. I honestly don't like the decision taken, but with shrinking budgets and decreased willingness on tournament hosts (such as DH) to have sc2 tournaments, this can be seen as a last ditch effort to stabilize the sc2 scene (maybe even grow it). If it does not help, then we'll just go through the motion of an ever shrinking scene that was expected anyway. I think the future of sc2 will lie with the hardcore and grassroot anyway. That said, I love you Jealous. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:22 Ppjack wrote: I did not follow broodwar, and I think this korean dominance nostalgia is why this community is so split. Esport has evolved and we should do everything we can to make it global. Starcraft2 is already a niche game in itself (rts genre) don't make it more niche (only korean ecosystem viable) That's an interesting strawman, but no, BW was not the only esport I followed before SC2, and I don't necessarily have any kind of nostalgia for that particular aspect, although I will tell you it sure created a shit ton of hype when people like ElkY or Legionnaire or IdrA actually went and competed with the Koreans. I've also followed esports like CS and Quake, whose scenes were fairly interesting in that it was only EU and NA but virtually impossible to play cross-continent at a high level due to latency. NA CS has a reputation of being quite inferior, whereas Quake was a lot more balanced usually. Anyway that's all beside the point, I simply don't give a shit about the nationality of who I'm watching, I just want to see as many top level games as I can. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:25 IceBerrY wrote: It is a long time trend on TL. If i want to see a discussion, i am prefering reddit. Sad but true. You mean Reddit where the collective opinion on a topic changes on a dime and if you're not 100% in agreement you'll get downvoted to oblivion and flamed by drama-fiending shitposters? I'll take a real discussion board any day of the week, well, any except NeoGAF. | ||
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IceBerrY
Germany220 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:30 207aicila wrote: You mean Reddit where the collective opinion on a topic changes on a dime and if you're not 100% in agreement you'll get downvoted to oblivion and flamed by drama-fiending shitposters? I'll take a real discussion board any day of the week, well, any except NeoGAF. Touché. On a serious note, i didn´t really mean it, it´s just that people on TL are arguing heavier, then i can remember. | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On January 25 2016 02:22 Elentos wrote: https://twitter.com/RotterdaM08/status/691304017335549954 Anyone from around the world can play in WCS and even Korean players can "buy in" so WCS is neither continental, nor national. Sometimes, I feel like Twitter is a problem for humanity. It is continental because all the NA players suck so much they don't even matter HEEEYOOOO | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:48 Deathstar wrote: Yeah posts like this make me think this is a racial issue. "Joking" or not, it misrepresents what the World Cup is and what WCS is. And deliberately so IMO. https://twitter.com/RotterdaM08/status/691307446011367425 Nah, he just means to say Spain and Brazil are the best nations in football so should be able to send more teams and the continent of Asia sucks so should be excluded (to make room for the extra teams the best are sending), sarcastically of course. But yeah, these analogies aren't helping much xD | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
Ya Apollo and Nate were way out of line, especially Nathanias who I've lost a lot of respect for over this. | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
It might be a bad sign but I aggree with him on a lot of things lol | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:48 Deathstar wrote: Yeah posts like this make me think this is a racial issue. "Joking" or not, it misrepresents what the World Cup is and what WCS is. And deliberately so IMO. https://twitter.com/RotterdaM08/status/691307446011367425 This is not racial issue but stupidity issue. We are not fighting over because Foreigners are having more tournaments to play and win, we support that. But we say that should not come at the cost of Koreans. But no, lets keep shit posting twitter, that will be better as a community figurehead. The article targets an issue with the Korean scene and that WCS changes ignores that and focuses only on the foreigners. What our glorious community figures do? Insulting and author the call him "shitter" while admitting not reading the article. Then slowly start saying "It was not my intention" "IT IS AN HONEST MISTAKE"... Now the whole twitter evolved and everyone joining their own sides and calling each other out over a tweet... A FUCKING TWEET! And the drama continues tonight on twitter... EDIT: fixed a typo... | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:55 Penev wrote: Nah, he just means to say Spain and Brazil are the best nations in football so should be able to send more teams and the continent of Asia sucks so should be excluded (to make room for the extra teams the best are sending), sarcastically of course. But yeah, these analogies aren't helping much xD Lets be honest, he's just salty the Netherlands didn't qualify for the EuroCup and fears that if it gets unlocked they'd never get into the worldcup looking at their level of play | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:56 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Oh so we're using this thread as the drama thread. Ya Apollo and Nate were way out of line, especially Nathanias who I've lost a lot of respect for over this. You go and put the results here now! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/502741-dreamhack-leipzig-day-3 | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:58 Musicus wrote: You go and put the results here now! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/502741-dreamhack-leipzig-day-3 NO! I had it as a link to liquipedia and someone changed it without my consent. I'm not updating it out of principle now | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:57 WrathSCII wrote: This is not racial issue but stupidity issue. We are not fighting over because Foreigners are having more tournaments to play and win, we support that. But we say that should not come at the cost of Koreans. But no, lets keep shit posting twitter, that will be better as a community figurehead. The article targets an issue with the Korean scene and that WCS changes ignores that and focuses only on the foreigners. What our glorious community figures do? Insulting and author and call him "shitter" while admitting not reading the article. Then slowly start saying "It was not my intention" "IT IS AN HONEST MISTAKE"... Now the whole twitter evolved and everyone joining their own sides and calling each other out over a tweet... A FUCKING TWEET! And the drama continues tonight on twitter... These are the kind of people supposedly representing our scene... | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:58 Arvendilin wrote: Lets be honest, he's just salty the Netherlands didn't qualify for the EuroCup and fears that if it gets unlocked they'd never get into the worldcup looking at their level of play I'm one of them D': But you're probably right | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:58 Arvendilin wrote: Lets be honest, he's just salty the Netherlands didn't qualify for the EuroCup and fears that if it gets unlocked they'd never get into the worldcup looking at their level of play i thought he was mad about their women's curling team losing to Canada 14-2 | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:57 WrathSCII wrote: This is not racial issue but stupidity issue. We are not fighting over because Foreigners are having more tournaments to play and win, we support that. But we say that should not come at the cost of Koreans. But no, lets keep shit posting twitter, that will be better as a community figurehead. The article targets an issue with the Korean scene and that WCS changes ignores that and focuses only on the foreigners. What our glorious community figures do? Insulting and author and call him "shitter" while admitting not reading the article. Then slowly start saying "It was not my intention" "IT IS AN HONEST MISTAKE"... Now the whole twitter evolved and everyone joining their own sides and calling each other out over a tweet... A FUCKING TWEET! And the drama continues tonight on twitter... My personal favorite is that the tweet implies that people want less opportunities for non-Korean players and more for Korean players instead of just more opportunities for Korean ones. Handcuff all of them so they stop shitposting on twitter, I say. | ||
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SmykuToronto
Poland269 Posts
Let's introduce a rule in World Cup allowing all countries except for Germany to participate. Everyone can make stupid analogies in favor of any argument. It seems that alternatives for WCS 2016 hit casters' pockets really hard if they defend it so fiercely. | ||
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On January 25 2016 03:48 Deathstar wrote: Yeah posts like this make me think this is a racial issue. "Joking" or not, it misrepresents what the World Cup is and what WCS is. And deliberately so IMO. https://twitter.com/RotterdaM08/status/691307446011367425 Isn't 2012 WCS the closest thing we've had to the World Cup? What we have now is quite far away from that. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:07 SmykuToronto wrote: Let's introduce a rule in World Cup allowing all countries except for Germany to participate. Everyone can make stupid analogies in favor of any argument. It seems that alternatives for WCS 2016 hit casters' pockets really hard if they defend it so fiercely. But Korea still is playing and gets a ton of Blizzcon spots....... And funny you mention the casters pockets when Nathanias lost his ESL job with this WCS change | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:07 Elentos wrote: My personal favorite is that the tweet implies that people want less opportunities for non-Korean players and more for Korean players instead of just more opportunities for Korean ones. Handcuff all of them so they stop shitposting on twitter, I say. He's saying Koreans already have it good in the sense they get 8 spots, as much as the whole rest of the world. In football some continents get more spots than others (as you know). The WCS - football analogy is hilariously confusing, I hope this twitter thread keeps extending | ||
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SmykuToronto
Poland269 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:14 jmbthirteen wrote: But Korea still is playing and gets a ton of Blizzcon spots....... And funny you mention the casters pockets when Nathanias lost his ESL job with this WCS change Maybe he would lose more with alternative. Apollo keeps tweeting how this system is for the best and how people don't know anything. | ||
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:21 DJHelium wrote: https://twitter.com/kenzi131/status/691339964089389056 First good tweet I read today, awesome! | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:21 DJHelium wrote: https://twitter.com/kenzi131/status/691339964089389056 That's good to hear | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
Not surprised by the response from the casters though. They can't really be negative about WCS. Disappointed in Nates response. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:21 DJHelium wrote: https://twitter.com/kenzi131/status/691339964089389056 https://twitter.com/kenzi131/status/691340122017509376 Thank you! Finally something positive that is not a shitpost in the stupid twitter war! | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:23 WrathSCII wrote: Thank you! Finally something positive that is not a shitpost in the stupid twitter war! How else would thoorin get a following than shitpost in twitter. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:17 Penev wrote: He's saying Koreans already have it good in the sense they get 8 spots, as much as the whole rest of the world. In football some continents get more spots than others (as you know). The WCS - football analogy is hilariously confusing, I hope this twitter thread keeps extending It's also a hilariously bad analogy. A tennis analogy would be way more appropriate - WCS is like tennis tournaments imo - but I guess no caster knows shit about tennis. On January 25 2016 04:21 DJHelium wrote: https://twitter.com/kenzi131/status/691339964089389056 https://twitter.com/kenzi131/status/691340122017509376 Canata is a hero tbh (kenzi too ofc). But yeah, I'm willing to give things time. It's just that the outlook right now is not the best for the Korean scene, and not even that great for SC2 in general. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16692 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:20 SmykuToronto wrote: Maybe he would lose more with alternative. Apollo keeps tweeting how this system is for the best and how people don't know anything. the pie is shrinking. it does not matter how Blizzard juggles the rules. the over all decline in major events means the over all amount of money paid to SC2 casters is falling; all these different proposed changes to league policies are just shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic. | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:25 Luolis wrote: How else would thoorin get a following than shitpost in twitter. By beeing generally super knowledgable and always stating his mind. I'm not big into other esports, but go read his articles about BroodWar they are pretty fucking damn amazing quality He knows a lot of stuff, a lot of minor stuff that you can easily overlook, his personality may split community views on him (i personally like it, but its super understandable how people would get angry at it) but his content is top notch | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:07 SmykuToronto wrote: Let's introduce a rule in World Cup allowing all countries except for Germany to participate. Everyone can make stupid analogies in favor of any argument. It seems that alternatives for WCS 2016 hit casters' pockets really hard if they defend it so fiercely. It's not like Korea is banned from participating, players with visas can play in foreign tournaments and they will be sending 8 players to Blizzcon who competed in Korea (50%). So this analogy doesn't really hold up at all. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:30 Arvendilin wrote: By beeing generally super knowledgable and always stating his mind. I'm not big into other esports, but go read his articles about BroodWar they are pretty fucking damn amazing quality He knows a lot of stuff, a lot of minor stuff that you can easily overlook, his personality may split community views on him (i personally like it, but its super understandable how people would get angry at it) but his content is top notch I know Thorin does alot of good content, but hes also a really big drama queen who seems to like being controversial for controversialitys sake, which makes me dislike him on another level than his content. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
Savage. | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:29 JimmyJRaynor wrote: all these different proposed changes to league policies are just shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic. Now this is a good analogy! | ||
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SmykuToronto
Poland269 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:33 Ansibled wrote: It's not like Korea is banned from participating, players with visas can play in foreign tournaments and they will be sending 8 players to Blizzcon who competed in Korea (50%). So this analogy doesn't really hold up at all. That's my point. As I said, "everyone can make stupid analogies in favor of any argument.". Rotti's analogy doesn't hold up either because WCS and World Cup or continental cups like Euro or Copa America are not comparable. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:30 Arvendilin wrote: By beeing generally super knowledgable and always stating his mind. I'm not big into other esports, but go read his articles about BroodWar they are pretty fucking damn amazing quality He knows a lot of stuff, a lot of minor stuff that you can easily overlook, his personality may split community views on him (i personally like it, but its super understandable how people would get angry at it) but his content is top notch How the fuck can you even dare to call a foreigner knowledgable? | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:36 Big J wrote: How the fuck can you even dare to call a foreigner knowledgable? Can Foreigners Even Have Knowledge? | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:34 Elentos wrote: https://twitter.com/SetGuitars2Kill/status/691340810135035904 Savage. SGTK may be entry level but he's definitely a rising star | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:25 Luolis wrote: How else would thoorin get a following than shitpost in twitter. You seriously think Thorin's point, not his arguing style or replies, but his main point, is wrong? Not even a fan or follower of the guy in any way, like I said previously, but it seems he's at least on the correct side of the argument this time. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
How could I know? | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:36 Big J wrote: How the fuck can you even dare to call a foreigner knowledgable? Psshhhh we all know foreigners are super knowledgeable they are just too lazy to get their mechanics up :^) EDIT: Okay That was too much, I apologize to Snute and all the other hardworking foreigners, but especially snute cuz he's cute and I don't want him to hate me | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:38 207aicila wrote: You seriously think Thorin's point, not his arguing style or replies, but his main point, is wrong? Not even a fan or follower of the guy in any way, like I said previously, but it seems he's at least on the correct side of the argument this time. Does he have a point to be wrong about? I'm having trouble telling what it's supposed to be from the way he's just flaming everyone. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7104 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:38 207aicila wrote: You seriously think Thorin's point, not his arguing style or replies, but his main point, is wrong? Not even a fan or follower of the guy in any way, like I said previously, but it seems he's at least on the correct side of the argument this time. ? I dont think i commented thorins point at all, but his arguing style and replies precisely. Theres many sides to the argument, and i cannot be bothered to argue which i think is the smartest thing to do. I just think thorin is an insufferable asshole | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:38 207aicila wrote: You seriously think Thorin's point, not his arguing style or replies, but his main point, is wrong? Not even a fan or follower of the guy in any way, like I said previously, but it seems he's at least on the correct side of the argument this time. Yes?! When I like to watch my local 5th league football team that doesn't force me to watch Austrian Bundesliga. Hell, it doesn't even force me to watch German Bundesliga or champions league. I'm still a football fan in that case. | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:38 207aicila wrote: You seriously think Thorin's point, not his arguing style or replies, but his main point, is wrong? Not even a fan or follower of the guy in any way, like I said previously, but it seems he's at least on the correct side of the argument this time. i'm always on his side when it comes to cs:go and I know no shit about league except the basics. But he is so far to be right.... he has an opinion that is totally not mine (and not only mine it seems) and makes so wrong points. Seriously, is it possible to have a discussion here or are people going to camp on their position ? We should order a sociological study on who is by essence in a side or the other, and who is actually trying to understand the changes and try to make the starcraft scene healthy and peren. Really | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:26 Elentos wrote: It's also a hilariously bad analogy. A tennis analogy would be way more appropriate - WCS is like tennis tournaments imo - but I guess no caster knows shit about tennis. Canata is a hero tbh (kenzi too ofc). But yeah, I'm willing to give things time. It's just that the outlook right now is not the best for the Korean scene, and not even that great for SC2 in general. Okay I have to come back just for this. I'd like to ban Novak Djokovic from the Grand Slams so Roger Federer could win for once | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:42 Ppjack wrote: i'm always on his side when it comes to cs:go and I know no shit about league except the basics. But he is so far to be right.... he has an opinion that is totally not mine (and not only mine it seems) and makes so wrong points. Seriously, is it possible to have a discussion here or are people going to camp on their position ? We should order a sociological study on who is by essence in a side or the other, and who is actually trying to understand the changes and try to make the starcraft scene healthy and peren. Really But a discussion is taking place. I have not found any convincing argument as to how these changes will not be severely detrimental to the SC2 scene (at least the top players, for those of us who actually care about them) and thus my enjoyment of the game. All these commentators and personalities acting like manchildren and saying "i swear its going to be awesome but we just cant tell you anything" is certainly not helping in any way. You are very much entitled to your opinion, but you presenting your opinion will not make me give less of a shit about the Korean scene and its tragic, slow death. | ||
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:07 SmykuToronto wrote: Let's introduce a rule in World Cup allowing all countries except for Germany to participate. Everyone can make stupid analogies in favor of any argument. It seems that alternatives for WCS 2016 hit casters' pockets really hard if they defend it so fiercely. According to Rotti, he's actually losing a lot of the income he gets from casting in this new system. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/42gkuj/i_really_dont_like_thorin_in_general_not_just/cza6ne8 And according to Nathanias, there is more on the way, but they are currently under NDA https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/42gkuj/i_really_dont_like_thorin_in_general_not_just/cza9ke3 So could it possibly be the casters like the WCS system because they genuinely find it to be a good system and they are excited for the other things in the future? Maybe, just maybe, they actually care about the scene... | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:46 showstealer1829 wrote: Okay I have to come back just for this. I'd like to ban Novak Djokovic from the Grand Slams so Roger Federer could win for once No need. Fed express will win at least one more! Have faith! | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:48 207aicila wrote: But a discussion is taking place. I have not found any convincing argument as to how these changes will not be severely detrimental to the SC2 scene (at least the top players, for those of us who actually care about them) and thus my enjoyment of the game. All these commentators and personalities acting like manchildren and saying "i swear its going to be awesome but we just cant tell you anything" is certainly not helping in any way. You are very much entitled to your opinion, but you presenting your opinion will not make me give less of a shit about the Korean scene and its tragic, slow death. While korean scene is dying, foreign scene was almost dead. Something is tried to be done about it. And I don't like the lack of GSL/SSL but I'm sure the korean ecosystem will adapt, create side tournaments, online leagues and such. And if we can have few global event a year à la Lol, everything will be awesome. That's my opinion, and I don't understand the people that are already bitching that korean scene is dead or whatever. I understand the concern, and th'tas why people must work in a good direction for the sustainability of every scene. Starcraft was not in a good state anymore, and when something is done to encourage people to watch / go pro a lot of people are blindly bitching. Just seeing the argument "esl casters are not legit cuz paid by blizz" makes me want to vomit. This community, and I said it before, has become hugely toxic, nostalgic of I don't know what. Koreans are not dying. They were not showing any interest in foreign tournament, why should we focus on them? While few koreans enjoyed the foreign scene, they have always been welcome and easily fan favorite. And the scene is not in the same shape it was in 2011 when starcraft 2 was the only relevant esport. Start acting like a real community and work on it. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:07 Ppjack wrote: While korean scene is dying, foreign scene was almost dead. Source? On January 25 2016 05:07 Ppjack wrote: While korean scene is dying, foreign scene was almost dead. Something is tried to be done about it. And I don't like the lack of GSL/SSL but I'm sure the korean ecosystem will adapt, create side tournaments, online leagues and such. You must be new here, the number of tournaments for the Korean scene has gone *down* over the years, not up. Interest has been waning except for the rare event (like TotalBiscuit's SHOUTCraft stuff and the OlimoLeague that himself and Olivia have helped create) and people have been retiring because of it. On January 25 2016 05:07 Ppjack wrote: That's my opinion, and I don't understand the people that are already bitching that korean scene is dead or whatever. I understand the concern, and th'tas why people must work in a good direction for the sustainability of every scene. It's fine to have that opinion, but you clearly do not understand, or do not care, about the severity of the situation. For those of us who have watched the premier tournaments slowly shrink in number, teams disband, and many online tournaments come to an end, it's disheartening. On January 25 2016 05:07 Ppjack wrote: Starcraft was not in a good state anymore, and when something is done to encourage people to watch / go pro a lot of people are blindly bitching. Do you seriously think there were so many people trying to break out into the scene, who haven't already been part of it for years now? Do you think this is going to cause a sudden outburst of new talent? I would love for that to be the case, I guess we'll have to wait and see. On January 25 2016 05:07 Ppjack wrote: Just seeing the argument "esl casters are not legit cuz paid by blizz" makes me want to vomit. I guess you're not familiar with the concept of "conflict of interest". On January 25 2016 05:07 Ppjack wrote: This community, and I said it before, has become hugely toxic, nostalgic of I don't know what. Koreans are not dying. They were not showing any interest in foreign tournament, why should we focus on them? While few koreans enjoyed the foreign scene, they have always been welcome and easily fan favorite. You what mate? Take a look at these tournaments. Note how many Korean players attended. Then tell me they were not showing any interest. On January 25 2016 05:07 Ppjack wrote: Start acting like a real community and work on it. Okay, Mr. joined in 2015... | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:15 207aicila wrote: You must be new here, the number of tournaments for the Korean scene has gone *down* over the years, not up. Interest has been waning except for the rare event (like TotalBiscuit's SHOUTCraft stuff and the OlimoLeague that himself and Olivia have helped create) and people have been retiring because of it. TB has nothing to do with the Olimoleague besides being a donation goal one time, That's all Olivia's work | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:00 StasisField wrote: And according to Nathanias, there is more on the way, but they are currently under NDA I wish we were told things in more timely fashion. Would probably help. I mean, WCS announcement after GSL qualifying processes start. Rumors about changes over a week in advance, especially surrounding HSC. IEM Taipei is this weekend, we know MC is playing and that's it. It always makes it seem like these people are like me, finishing projects on the last day they can. Except, you know, my projects aren't of relevance for thousands of people. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:24 showstealer1829 wrote: TB has nothing to do with the Olimoleague besides being a donation goal one time, That's all Olivia's work I thought he actually was a patron of the thing on Patreon, if that's not accurate then I apologize! But you're right, she deserves more credit than she usually gets for it. ^^ | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:27 207aicila wrote: I thought he actually was a patron of the thing on Patreon, if that's not accurate then I apologize! But you're right, she deserves more credit than she usually gets for it. ^^ Well he's a patron yes, but saying he had a hand in creating Olimoleague because of that is like saying everyone who donates did True....but at the same time not | ||
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Jealous
10140 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:07 Ppjack wrote: While korean scene is dying, foreign scene was almost dead. Something is tried to be done about it. And I don't like the lack of GSL/SSL but I'm sure the korean ecosystem will adapt, create side tournaments, online leagues and such. And if we can have few global event a year à la Lol, everything will be awesome. That's my opinion, and I don't understand the people that are already bitching that korean scene is dead or whatever. I understand the concern, and th'tas why people must work in a good direction for the sustainability of every scene. Starcraft was not in a good state anymore, and when something is done to encourage people to watch / go pro a lot of people are blindly bitching. Just seeing the argument "esl casters are not legit cuz paid by blizz" makes me want to vomit. This community, and I said it before, has become hugely toxic, nostalgic of I don't know what. Koreans are not dying. They were not showing any interest in foreign tournament, why should we focus on them? While few koreans enjoyed the foreign scene, they have always been welcome and easily fan favorite. And the scene is not in the same shape it was in 2011 when starcraft 2 was the only relevant esport. Start acting like a real community and work on it. I don't see the tragedy in the foreign scene dying. If it cannot sustain itself, it shouldn't be put on life support. This is sad to hear on the bedside of a dying friend who has been dying a slow death, but you have to objectively look at the situation not as his best friend but as a medical practitioner if you plan to make arguments. By using affirmative action to bolster the chances of subpar players and eliminating opportunities for players who are in the top 20 players in Korea (and therefore the world) at the moment, the system contradicts one of the fundamental tenets of competition. By doing this you are sending the message that "If you're not the best of the best, don't bother," to Koreans. It sends the message that "If you're one of the best foreigners, you'll get into a tournament you didn't deserve to be a part of because you're weaker than 50 players who weren't allowed in." That doesn't sound like a fair foundation to me. If the foreign scene hasn't gotten its shit together to produce players who can truly compete with Koreans in years, why should the foreign scene continue? It's being sustained by bureaucratic decisions and nationalistic fans alone, not skill. In a game of skill, skill is the only thing that should matter, imo. People have been complaining about "faceless" Koreans for years... And frankly, that's disheartening, because it is more important to be a fan of the game than of a player or a nation. What's best for the game is the highest level of play possible. By enforcing affirmative action, you're hurting the longevity of the furnaces that produce strong players, furnaces which don't exist in the foreign scene anyway. | ||
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IceBerrY
Germany220 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:00 StasisField wrote: According to Rotti, he's actually losing a lot of the income he gets from casting in this new system. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/42gkuj/i_really_dont_like_thorin_in_general_not_just/cza6ne8 And according to Nathanias, there is more on the way, but they are currently under NDA https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/42gkuj/i_really_dont_like_thorin_in_general_not_just/cza9ke3 So could it possibly be the casters like the WCS system because they genuinely find it to be a good system and they are excited for the other things in the future? Maybe, just maybe, they actually care about the scene... No they really hate the scene and don´t know anything! They will try do their best to destroy this game future. Srsly, what the hell? This guys know so much more than anyone of us, they work close with organizers and people behind the scene, it is just laughable to imply they are saying this because they are employes. Actually, if they want to stay sc2 caster it is theire only interest that this game is doing well, otherwise they can soon go to the job center. Rotti and Nate haven´t even a stable income and are still supportive of the WCS`s changes. I can´t relate to you all at all. I think the WCS´s changes are the way to go. I want this game to succeed. Keep crying how shit everything is and when you finally achieved your goal, there will be no sc2 left. Just so you know, many koreans think this is the right move, what does this tell if they get region locked out and still think it is good for the future? What do i know, i know nothing, but I have a choice. I keep watching sc2 and hope that it turns for the best, or i cry like a little baby, eventhough it won´t change a damn thing 2016, beside turning new people and sponsors away of this community. I am sorry for the foreigners and casters to deal with all this crap the next months. You will all do a great job to make this place unbearable, as you already did with the dreamhack threads. It really hurts. glhf, you win. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
Or maybe you just haven't been here long enough to be disappointed by Blizzard and their "we know best" solutions that tend to do more harm than good or come far too late to be relevant. Also Jealous' post is on point. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 25 2016 04:41 Big J wrote: Yes?! When I like to watch my local 5th league football team that doesn't force me to watch Austrian Bundesliga. Hell, it doesn't even force me to watch German Bundesliga or champions league. I'm still a football fan in that case. Euh not really. If you are a fan of the game which is played you, or rather a fan of the competition in said game, you should actually care for the highest lvl possible. If that's not the case, are you really into the gameplay? Or is it more of an emotional investment created by other factors primarily. I tend to agree with Thorin on this, because it makes a lot of sense | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
What the fuck do you think... And to the general answer: yes I joined TL in 2015, but have been lurking since the release of starcraft 2. I joined because I had to say something about the general mentality here that was so condescendend towards the foreign scene while I have been enjoying playing / watching the game for 6 years (with breaks). And while starcraft was my real esport revelation (beside war3 and cs via hltv at the time back in 2002-6) I became an esport fan. And I don't understand why people are that conservative and bitching about the state of the game while esport is becoming a real huge thing. Everything is tried and done in the good direction and korea is not dying, just learning to take care of its players by itself. Global events are very much needed but region lock is a step in the good direction if you want starcraft to stay relevant on the esport map | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:51 Ppjack wrote: No foreigners = no foreign tournaments. What the fuck do you think... And to the general answer: yes I joined TL in 2015, but have been lurking since the release of starcraft 2. I joined because I had to say something about the general mentality here that was so condescendend towards the foreign scene while I have been enjoying playing / watching the game for 6 years (with breaks). And while starcraft was my real esport revelation (beside war3 and cs via hltv at the time back in 2002-6) I became an esport fan. And I don't understand why people are that conservative and bitching about the state of the game while esport is becoming a real huge thing. Everything is tried and done in the good direction and korea is not dying, just learning to take care of its players by itself. Global events are very much needed but region lock is a step in the good direction if you want starcraft to stay relevant on the esport map Look here's the thing. Ultimately there are ways to implement region locking without completely shitting on the region that has the highest concentration of top level progamers. If they did it that way, I personally wouldn't have a problem with it, although some still would (because it's the internet). But they're not. You keep saying Korea isn't dying, that's just proving that you don't follow the scene closely enough. | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:49 207aicila wrote: Man it's like some of you have never heard of "conflict of interest". Sickening number of appeal to authority fallacies here. Or maybe you just haven't been here long enough to be disappointed by Blizzard and their "we know best" solutions that tend to do more harm than good or come far too late to be relevant. Also Jealous' post is on point. They made a work from their passion and now these guys should be less relevant than the average TL/reddit poster. That is so pathetic to read | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:53 Ppjack wrote: They made a work from their passion and now these guys should be less relevant than the average TL/reddit poster. That is so pathetic to read With the way they've handled the situation this evening, their credibility has definitely taken a hit, and rightfully so. Like I said, empty promises of "we can't tell you anything but it's going to be great" don't mean much, because we've already heard these many times before. You claim to have been around since 2010 but somehow you don't remember this? I wouldn't claim they're less relevant than the average netizen, but they've been very defensive about it without providing any real argument of any description. Very unprofessional and uninformative. Just because they work in the industry doesn't mean their word is the word of God, nor does it mean that they will always provide truthful answers. | ||
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:53 Ppjack wrote: They made a work from their passion and now these guys should be less relevant than the average TL/reddit poster. That is so pathetic to read conflict of interest. Seing how the community figures react to tweets and reddit threads, its quite obvious. (I am 30 now, maybe with 20 i would think differently, just saying maybe not all people have the same skills/experiences) @Jealous: Damn, i just saw your special needs comparison post, wp mate! | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:41 IceBerrY wrote: No they really hate the scene and don´t know anything! They will try do their best to destroy this game future. Srsly, what the hell? This guys know so much more than anyone of us, they work close with organizers and people behind the scene, it is just laughable to imply they are saying this because they are employes. Actually, if they want to stay sc2 caster it is theire only interest that this game is doing well, otherwise they can soon go to the job center. Rotti and Nate haven´t even a stable income and are still supportive of the WCS`s changes. I can´t relate to you all at all. I think the WCS´s changes are the way to go. I want this game to succeed. Keep crying how shit everything is and when you finally achieved your goal, there will be no sc2 left. Just so you know, many koreans think this is the right move, what does this tell if they get region locked out and still think it is good for the future? What do i know, i know nothing, but I have a choice. I keep watching sc2 and hope that it turns for the best, or i cry like a little baby, eventhough it won´t change a damn thing 2016, beside turning new people and sponsors away of this community. I am sorry for the foreigners and casters to deal with all this crap the next months. You will all do a great job to make this place unbearable, as you already did with the dreamhack threads. It really hurts. glhf, you win. Seriously for the 100000000000000000000000 times when you and the likes of you understand that the issue is not supporting the foreigners but the fuck over Koreans? But no, lets just keep blah blah WCS great blah blah foreigners awesome blah blah you are daed gaem spammers too negative blah blah... etc Seriously we are on the same side! we want the game to grow but we want something to compensate for the Koreans. Is that too much to ask now?! | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 25 2016 06:01 WrathSCII wrote: Seriously for the 100000000000000000000000 times when you and the likes of you understand that the issue is not supporting the foreigners but the fuck over Koreans? But no, lets just keep blah blah WCS great blah blah foreigners awesome blah blah you are daed gaem spammers too negative blah blah... etc Seriously we are on the same side! we want the game to grow but we want something to compensate for the Koreans. Is that too much to ask now?! Me and the like of me are not blindly supportive of the new WCS system. Just fighting the ambiant negativity. This system is not that bad imo and the flaws are to be discussed on worked on. For the better of starcraft. I remember the time when almost only BTTV was creating events, and the only good content to watch was few weekend tournaments and low quality streaming of korean leagues (or vods). I want to believe everything is done in the right direction, not perfect, but people are trying. And the negativity/conservative attitude is not only shown towards the wcs system, but towards foreigners in general. edit: kind of hard to follow the twitter game, reddit and tl at the same time.. what tf am i doing of my sunday evening | ||
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Jealous
10140 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:51 Ppjack wrote: No foreigners = no foreign tournaments. What the fuck do you think... And to the general answer: yes I joined TL in 2015, but have been lurking since the release of starcraft 2. I joined because I had to say something about the general mentality here that was so condescendend towards the foreign scene while I have been enjoying playing / watching the game for 6 years (with breaks). And while starcraft was my real esport revelation (beside war3 and cs via hltv at the time back in 2002-6) I became an esport fan. And I don't understand why people are that conservative and bitching about the state of the game while esport is becoming a real huge thing. Everything is tried and done in the good direction and korea is not dying, just learning to take care of its players by itself. Global events are very much needed but region lock is a step in the good direction if you want starcraft to stay relevant on the esport map We live in a modern era where large, highly-competitive, and prominent tournaments mostly net far more viewers online than they ever could support in person. With that in mind, what argument is there for keeping foreign tournaments that field weaker players than concurrently running Korean ones? You can just watch Korean ones on stream or VOD. There is (was?) almost always one going on. If you're operating on the assumption that more tournaments = good and fewer tournaments = bad, then you're arguing quantity over quality. You're arguing middle school gym class football against World Cup. If you had to choose between watching 10 of the former or 1 of the latter, would you really watch the 10? So why need foreign tournaments, why artificially raise demand for them and artificially decrease value of Korean ones? And let's not jump the gun; just because there will be no life support for the foreign scene does not mean that there will be no tournaments at all. In Brood War there have been and still are foreign tournaments despite the fact that any real money or global prestige has fled the scene over a decade go. A smaller scene is not necessarily a bad thing, either. In fact, it makes for on average a better one, as the remaining fans and players are on average more dedicated to one thing above all the little side things: the game. All the hype beasts, nationalistic and racist notions, and money-grubbing individuals will disappear by this point. Your final argument, which had no real argument at all and was more of a statement of opinion, leads me to believe that you care more about the prominence of StarCraft than of the quality of it. StarCraft will stay "relevant" because of the top level competitions, where top level competitors flaunt top level play. Not because of Minor Foreign Nation Tournament #6, where you see Foreign Player Z (#867 in the world by skill) vs. Foreign Player T (#467 in the world by skill). Region lock is good for StarCraft? It certainly did wonders for B.Net2.0, where any player who is serious about improving had to buy a Korean version of the game to play on Korean servers. You know, where the real competition and practice can be had, unlike the other servers where GM is below the level of a 15-year-old Korean Masters player who plays after his evening study classes. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:51 Ppjack wrote: Global events are very much needed but region lock is a step in the good direction if you want starcraft to stay relevant on the esport map How does that help Starcraft stay relevant as a esport? The viewer numbers, if I remember correctly, are down, not up, after the change. So outside of giving free money to players who are not competative on a globale scale what has it accomplished? | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
On January 25 2016 06:01 WrathSCII wrote: Seriously for the 100000000000000000000000 times when you and the likes of you understand that the issue is not supporting the foreigners but the fuck over Koreans? But no, lets just keep blah blah WCS great blah blah foreigners awesome blah blah you are daed gaem spammers too negative blah blah... etc Seriously we are on the same side! we want the game to grow but we want something to compensate for the Koreans. Is that too much to ask now?! Seriously, the conversation would flow much better if WCS defender stop assuming that disapproving WCS means give 0 support to the foreigners and leave all to Korea for grabs. It would also help if the WCS critics would stop calling racist and other names. I think on both sides, critics and defenders, there is a majority that thinks helping the foreigners is OK and WCS does a good job at it, but it does a poor job because it leaves the Koreans to rot and that part needs to be changed. Edit: edited double negation | ||
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Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
On January 25 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote: We live in a modern era where large, highly-competitive, and prominent tournaments mostly net far more viewers online than they ever could support in person. With that in mind, what argument is there for keeping foreign tournaments that field weaker players than concurrently running Korean ones? You can just watch Korean ones on stream or VOD. There is always one going on. If you're operating on the assumption that more tournaments = good and fewer tournaments = bad, then you're arguing quantity over quality. You're arguing middle school after school football against World Cup. If you had to choose between watching 10 of the former or 1 of the latter, would you really watch the 10? So why need foreign tournaments, why artificially raise demand for them and artificially decrease value of Korean ones? And let's not jump the gun; just because there will be no life support for the foreign scene does not mean that there will be no tournaments at all. In Brood War there have been and still are foreign tournaments despite the fact that any real money or global prestige has fled the scene over a decade go. A smaller scene is not necessarily a bad thing, either. In fact, it makes it for on average a better one, as the remaining fans and players are on average more dedicated to one thing above all the little side things: the game. All the hype beasts, nationalistic and racist notions, and money-grubbing individuals will disappear by this point. Your final argument, which had no real argument at all and was more of a statement of opinion, leads me to believe that you care more about the prominence of StarCraft than of the quality of it. StarCraft will stay "relevant" because of the top level competitions, where top level competitors flaunt top level play. Not because of Minor Foreign Nation Tournament #6, where you see Foreign Player Z (#867 in the world by skill) vs. Foreign Player T (#467 in the world by skill). Region lock is good for StarCraft? It certainly did wonders for B.Net2.0, where any player who is serious about improving had to buy a Korean version of the game to play on Korean servers. You know, where the real competition and practice can be had, unlike the other servers where GM is below the level of a 15-year-old Korean Masters player who plays after his evening study classes. I want to believe this is the start of a bigger player base/audience in foreignland. So people actually start paying good salaries again, sponsor come back and the state of starcraft in a dreamhack / iem / any big org, is not to ask. Starcraft will be there. Once it is done, along the development of other esports, money will be invested and eventually foreign players will catch up. If not, the system à la Lol with separate scenes (with sc2 NA scene must grow again) and then global events few times a year (let's say NA/EU/CN/KR) would happen and hype the fuck out of everyone. Quality will still be there, and quantity can't hurt. | ||
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On January 25 2016 06:14 Silvana wrote: Seriously, the conversation would flow much better if WCS defender stop assuming that disapproving WCS doesn't mean give 0 support to the foreigners and leave all to Korea for grabs. It would also help if the WCS critics would stop calling racist and other names. I think on both sides, critics and defenders, there is a majority that thinks helping the foreigners is OK and WCS does a good job at it, but it does a poor job because it leaves the Koreans to rot and that part needs to be changed. We can also still get back to this conversation in 6 months if it turns out that shit is really hitting the fan for Korea because they legit only have 5 tournaments to compete in outside of Proleague and nothing's working. After all, it's still the first month. But if there really is to be a conversation it would certainly help if people stop being consistently offended about everything. That includes us plebs as much as it does the pros and other community figures who are bitching on twitter. | ||
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ddayzy
259 Posts
On January 25 2016 06:15 Ppjack wrote: I want to believe this is the start of a bigger player base/audience in foreignland. So people actually start paying good salaries again, sponsor come back and the state of starcraft in a dreamhack / iem / any big org, is not to ask. Starcraft will be there. Once it is done, along the development of other esports, money will be invested and eventually foreign players will catch up. If not, the system à la Lol with separate scenes (with sc2 NA scene must grow again) and then global events few times a year (let's say NA/EU/CN/KR) would happen and hype the fuck out of everyone. Quality will still be there, and quantity can't hurt. Can you in anyway put up a coherent argument as to why you think this will happen? Foreign only tournaments are, in terms of game quality, worse then torunaments with koreans. Why do you think worse games will bring in more viewers? If people are not interested in lower skilled Starcraft to begin with more of it is not gonna help. Why do you think the quality will still be there? There are close to no new up and comming korean Starcraft players so as soon as the players who never win GSL and never get to play in proleague gets tiered and quit there are no new corks to plug the holes. | ||
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:41 IceBerrY wrote: No they really hate the scene and don´t know anything! They will try do their best to destroy this game future. Srsly, what the hell? This guys know so much more than anyone of us, they work close with organizers and people behind the scene, it is just laughable to imply they are saying this because they are employes. Actually, if they want to stay sc2 caster it is theire only interest that this game is doing well, otherwise they can soon go to the job center. Rotti and Nate haven´t even a stable income and are still supportive of the WCS`s changes. I can´t relate to you all at all. I think the WCS´s changes are the way to go. I want this game to succeed. Keep crying how shit everything is and when you finally achieved your goal, there will be no sc2 left. Just so you know, many koreans think this is the right move, what does this tell if they get region locked out and still think it is good for the future? What do i know, i know nothing, but I have a choice. I keep watching sc2 and hope that it turns for the best, or i cry like a little baby, eventhough it won´t change a damn thing 2016, beside turning new people and sponsors away of this community. I am sorry for the foreigners and casters to deal with all this crap the next months. You will all do a great job to make this place unbearable, as you already did with the dreamhack threads. It really hurts. glhf, you win. Wait, are you directing all of that at me? Did you fail to realize that I am on the side of these casters and agree with the 2016 system or did I jump to conclusions on who you're talking to? | ||
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Jealous
10140 Posts
On January 25 2016 06:15 Ppjack wrote: I want to believe this is the start of a bigger player base/audience in foreignland. So people actually start paying good salaries again, sponsor come back and the state of starcraft in a dreamhack / iem / any big org, is not to ask. Starcraft will be there. Once it is done, along the development of other esports, money will be invested and eventually foreign players will catch up. If not, the system à la Lol with separate scenes (with sc2 NA scene must grow again) and then global events few times a year (let's say NA/EU/CN/KR) would happen and hype the fuck out of everyone. Quality will still be there, and quantity can't hurt. You think it will create a bigger player base/audience than in the glory days, when foreign players were actually (somewhat) relevant? That is very optimistic. Obviously, I can't see the future, so I won't say it's not possible. However, you have to consider: how did SC2 end up in this situation in the first place? There was a time when foreigners were winning tournaments, sometimes even against Koreans (although no GSL or the like). There was a time when foreigners were actively playing in Korean tournaments, and even winning games there. Foreigners had teams, sponsors, streams, tournaments, everything they needed to be motivated to become the best. What ended up happening? + Show Spoiler [A hint] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gYkIi.jpg) Even when foreign players had all those things that you want to bring back, they still could not consistently rise above Koreans. The few that made impacts, such as Stephano, are just that: few. Compare the amount of foreign players who have been relevant on a global scale, that you would confidently place in the top 10 players at the time, to the amount of Korean players who have come and gone from that top 10. The ratio is undoubtedly heavily leaning towards Koreans. Foreign players catching up is simply not a realistic possibility. If it was, it would have happened by now. Isn't this the main underlying reason for this new system in the first place? @ddayzy, nailed it. EDIT: + Show Spoiler [Bonus] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2Bixreo.png) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 25 2016 05:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: Euh not really. If you are a fan of the game which is played you, or rather a fan of the competition in said game, you should actually care for the highest lvl possible. If that's not the case, are you really into the gameplay? Or is it more of an emotional investment created by other factors primarily. I tend to agree with Thorin on this, because it makes a lot of sense Other factors are part of it. Esports is about the whole package. If you are only into gameplay I encourage you to stop wasting your time watching and go play instead. That's the only way you actually experience gameplay, the esports part is about competition, personalities, emotions, racial bias and whatever someone enjoys about SC2. | ||
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IceBerrY
Germany220 Posts
On January 25 2016 06:01 WrathSCII wrote: Seriously for the 100000000000000000000000 times when you and the likes of you understand that the issue is not supporting the foreigners but the fuck over Koreans? But no, lets just keep blah blah WCS great blah blah foreigners awesome blah blah you are daed gaem spammers too negative blah blah... etc Seriously we are on the same side! we want the game to grow but we want something to compensate for the Koreans. Is that too much to ask now?! Not at all. I am watching GSL/SSL(yes SSL is still new) since the beginning of Hots and would be glad if there is a compensation for the 2 missing seasons of this tournament. Heck, if there would be more tournaments/weekly cups in korea it would be great. Now the question would be, how do you approach this problem, but with regards of seeing the whole picture aka keeping an eye on 99 percent of the rest of the countries? Somebody already mentioned implementing 2 Finals, maybe one for the very best koreans, and one for the rest of the world? Might be illusional. | ||
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IceBerrY
Germany220 Posts
On January 25 2016 06:23 StasisField wrote: Wait, are you directing all of that at me? Did you fail to realize that I am on the side of these casters and agree with the 2016 system or did I jump to conclusions on who you're talking to? When replying I realized you might thing i am directing it to you. My apologize, i hoped the last paragraph made it more clear that i wasn´t talking about you. Sorry. | ||
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
On January 25 2016 06:37 IceBerrY wrote: When replying I realized you might thing i am directing it to you. My apologize, i hoped the last paragraph made it more clear that i wasn´t talking about you. Sorry. All good haha! | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 25 2016 07:13 Incognoto wrote: I am super interested in what's under the NDA cover as well as future developments. I shall withhold saying that Blizzard are a bunch of racist idiots until I learn more about these developments. Well the only thing that wouldn't piss the community off even more would be the announcement of WCS Global Events. But given the history of Blizzard this year and who's saying it, I'm guessing something with the Circuit championships | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On January 25 2016 07:13 Incognoto wrote: I am super interested in what's under the NDA cover as well as future developments. I shall withhold saying that Blizzard are a bunch of racist idiots until I learn more about these developments. I don't hold much hope for that. Like Apollo and catz were saying WCS is gonna be great blah blah and then it turned out to be this. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On January 25 2016 07:26 Phredxor wrote: I don't hold much hope for that. Like Apollo and catz were saying WCS is gonna be great blah blah and then it turned out to be this. They seemed to be saying that Korea, or maybe actual global events, might be on the table. At least, that is my interpretation. I am hopeful for the future and shall reserve my criticism until I hear more about those developments, for sure! | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 25 2016 06:33 Big J wrote: Other factors are part of it. Esports is about the whole package. If you are only into gameplay I encourage you to stop wasting your time watching and go play instead. That's the only way you actually experience gameplay, the esports part is about competition, personalities, emotions, racial bias and whatever someone enjoys about SC2. I am not arguing that it is 'bad' or 'wrong' to watch lower level "gameplay" for factors which aren't about the lvl of play. I am a big JD fan and obviously don't watch him because he is the best of the best. I watch GSL/SSL/Proleague because it is the highest lvl and i care about the actual gameplay shown though. When people don't do this while still claiming they are fans of the game, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Obviously some form of fandom always begins to form, that is human. But it's still kinda flawed when people claim they love the game, not the person/team/whatever. (i don't wanna imply that one form of enjoyment is necessarily 'better' , i am not really interested in that side of the argument tbh) This can be seen everywhere though, be it mainstream sports, esports, entertainment industry in general, whatever. Something a little bit more on topic, i still fail to see why it is on blizzard to create the platform for korean up-and-comers tbh. At which point do we simply need to accept that the korean sc2 scene isn't important/big enough for young people? These kids play lol and want to become progamers in exactly that game. LoL is on OGN, sc2 is not. And as i said before, i strongly believe kespa/the teams have to find new talent on their own, not everything is part of wcs. | ||
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Kurbz
Australia88 Posts
Personally I'm hoping that SC2 goes f2p and has a player explosion, I just hope that if they do that they try and get rid of the noob traps the game is riddled with so that when we do get new players, they don't leave out of frustration. | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 25 2016 07:55 Kurbz wrote: Hi, pretty much lurker only here but I wanted to throw this out there (plz don't lynch me) I'd like to point out that in LoL, Korea absolutely dominates their global tournaments, they are the best players in the world by far. Yet.. NA and EU LCS (which is their version of WCS) both have much much higher viewership numbers despite being lower quality games (KR gets around 50k while NA/EU get around 200-300k), hell LCS team spots in NA and EU are being reportedly sold for 1 mil while some teams in korea struggle for sponsorship. Having said this I think this shows that people don't necessarily want to watch only the best people play. I know Sc2 and LoL are very different games but they are the only games I could think of that actually have region locking esports. Personally I'm hoping that SC2 goes f2p and has a player explosion, I just hope that if they do that they try and get rid of the noob traps the game is riddled with so that when we do get new players, they don't leave out of frustration. It's true that some Korean teams (Tigers, right?) struggle with finding sponsorships, but it's unfair not to mention that Korean teams also have some of the most significant sponsors in all of esports. SKT, KT and CJ, among others (I'm iffy on Samsung since they fucked up royally with White and Blue), have a lot of money to throw at LoL, and they do. I don't know that there are very many western teams with more significant sponsorships and salaries than SKT's A-squad, for example. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On January 25 2016 07:55 Kurbz wrote: Hi, pretty much lurker only here but I wanted to throw this out there (plz don't lynch me) I'd like to point out that in LoL, Korea absolutely dominates their global tournaments, they are the best players in the world by far. Yet.. NA and EU LCS (which is their version of WCS) both have much much higher viewership numbers despite being lower quality games (KR gets around 50k while NA/EU get around 200-300k), hell LCS team spots in NA and EU are being reportedly sold for 1 mil while some teams in korea struggle for sponsorship. Having said this I think this shows that people don't necessarily want to watch only the best people play. I know Sc2 and LoL are very different games but they are the only games I could think of that actually have region locking esports. Personally I'm hoping that SC2 goes f2p and has a player explosion, I just hope that if they do that they try and get rid of the noob traps the game is riddled with so that when we do get new players, they don't leave out of frustration. I could be wrong but that's probably because its broadcast on tv over there. So you won't get many koreans watching on twitch or whatever. And there's always timezone issues and such. That said i do love the EU vs NA banter/rivalry they have going on. Probably helps that their NA scene is half decent. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On January 25 2016 08:05 Incognoto wrote: If Starcraft 2 goes F2P I am going to riot... I paid all three expansions which cost €140. lol Neither BW nor WC3 are f2p still (officially anyway) so no need to worry | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On January 25 2016 08:05 Zealously wrote: It's true that some Korean teams (Tigers, right?) struggle with finding sponsorships, but it's unfair not to mention that Korean teams also have some of the most significant sponsors in all of esports. SKT, KT and CJ, among others (I'm iffy on Samsung since they fucked up royally with White and Blue), have a lot of money to throw at LoL, and they do. I don't know that there are very many western teams with more significant sponsorships and salaries than SKT's A-squad, for example. Just quick on the Samsung thing. Yea they are not a major sponsor in that in Korea the esports department of the samsung teams (they also spaonsor normal sports teams etc.) is known as the (not kidding) "dumpster child" of the teams Sooo yea, they almost get no funding etc. This is because the management of the esports team changed after the BW transition and was given to the same marketing team that handles normal sports, they get very little funding etc. for esports and don't really care about it | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 25 2016 08:24 Arvendilin wrote: Just quick on the Samsung thing. Yea they are not a major sponsor in that in Korea the esports department of the samsung teams (they also spaonsor normal sports teams etc.) is known as the (not kidding) "dumpster child" of the teams Sooo yea, they almost get no funding etc. This is because the management of the esports team changed after the BW transition and was given to the same marketing team that handles normal sports, they get very little funding etc. for esports and don't really care about it They did pretty well for themselves with the sister teams in 2014 though (yes I know they bought them off MVP), they weren't always dumpster teams | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 26 2016 02:00 Wolf wrote: I just found this and want to leave it here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwPYmyYlTSo Not sure if serious :/ Wolf I mean not the video. I know that was an April Fool's thing | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On January 26 2016 02:08 showstealer1829 wrote: Not sure if serious :/ Wolf I mean not the video. I know that was an April Fool's thing It's a joke until it's not a joke. While many players do not say so openly, their skype chats and personal chats are probably riddled with angry sentiments against koreans. "Why has blizzard not banned these koreans yet" is probably not uncommon among many foreign players. | ||
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CrayonPopChoa
Canada761 Posts
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On January 26 2016 02:32 CrayonPopChoa wrote: Now that the Europeans are dominating the foreigner scene, can we split the scene some more, so that the Americas can start winning? You think most of us in NA care about a WCS global finals with 8 Koreans 7 Europeans and maybe if we are lucky 1 NA? You think im going to care about a tournament where the people winning dont look like me and dont speak English OR look like me but barely speak English with with a terrible accent? No sir, I dont just need white people winning, I need white people with good English winning. Why cant we get our own scene? The only way my entire continent stops being a MEME for when somebody does something really stupid is if we get our own WCS. There will probably be Two NA reps. Polt and Hydra | ||
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KimJongIlJr
Korea (North)61 Posts
China is starting to do the same thing. They will get punished for it in SC3. Stupid. | ||
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ndralcasid
United States524 Posts
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Penev
28475 Posts
On January 26 2016 02:50 showstealer1829 wrote: There will probably be Two NA reps. Polt and Hydra Damn, I wanted to reply with "11 Koreans and 5 Europeans" (don't forget Violet) | ||
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