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On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:23 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:10 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 06:40 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:20 Ppjack wrote:
[quote]
If in your world cheering for your own country or your home team is racist, you must not really enjoy any kind of sport except few matches a year.
edit: I just want the foreign players to be able to catch up. And anyway, cheering for someone is the opposite of rational. Just don't judge me on it and don't insult me at the same time... wtf No supporting your country isn't racist. Supporting a system that excludes a whole country because your country can only beat them 1 time out of 20 is. whoa... whoa...whoa? i'm racist because i support the WCS 2016? really? Did I stutter? lol, when u put together a better league system let me know and i'll take a look at it. as of now i'm supporting the most entertaining option at my disposal, namely, WCS 2016. have fun claiming i'm racist though  I don't need to claim it. Your support of the system speaks for itself i'm an entertainment consumer with a budget of $1,000 a year... if u can do a better job you can take my cash. so far, you offer me no alternative. SC2:LotV and WCS 2016 are my best options so i'm taking them and backing them with my cash. When you have something better.. lemme know. Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word
No that is not the definition of racisme. Please stop trying to shut down discussion with inflamatory retoric, especially when you aren't even using it right.
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On January 22 2016 08:06 ddayzy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 07:45 Ppjack wrote:On January 22 2016 07:03 ddayzy wrote:On January 22 2016 06:58 Ppjack wrote:On January 22 2016 06:52 Silvana wrote:On January 22 2016 06:46 Ctone23 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:40 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:20 Ppjack wrote:On January 22 2016 06:18 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:17 Ppjack wrote:[quote] Man I would be as pissed if the only country producing this level of infrastructure for players was Australia. Don't try to make me say something I did not say. I don't have to, you did it yourself If in your world cheering for your own country or your home team is racist, you must not really enjoy any kind of sport except few matches a year. edit: I just want the foreign players to be able to catch up. And anyway, cheering for someone is the opposite of rational. Just don't judge me on it and don't insult me at the same time... wtf No supporting your country isn't racist. Supporting a system that excludes a whole country because your country can only beat them 1 time out of 20 is. So we shouldn't cheer for our favorite player if they happen to be foreigner because they are essentially being "gifted"? I see this "racism" rhetoric popping up a lot recently and quite frankly if you feel that strongly about it, Blizzard is the company to talk to. Blizzard is the one who changed the system, just because I want to see Bunny or Uthermal do really well this year doesn't make me a racist at all and I'm getting sick of that term being thrown around so lightly. There's a difference between cheering for a player a supporting an unfair system that helps said player. I love Bunny and Snute for example, and I'm kinda happy they're gonna do better this year with the new system, but I still can think the system is wrong in some fundamentals and unfair. Do you see the difference? The system is believed to be an incentitive for foreigners to go pro. Then few events should be there to mesure the best foreigners with koreans. What do you not like ? I really liked the old WCS system, but it was just not fair that players profiting from it where not helping the foreign scene (barely playing on the ladder, flying to korea to prepare, ...) It was welfare for them since they profit from high training environment and come to foreignland to take the money. Now at least something is done and tried. Don't know if it is going to work, but it is done. This is bizzaro-logic, what you are saying makes no sense. The best players winning tournaments is welfare because they are training with the best players whaaaaaa..? The definition of welfare is receiving financial aid from the government or from a private organization because of hardship and need. How on Gods green earth can you make that definition fit with what you jsut said? I used this word by analogy with the welfare-foreigner-wcs term that is used. Don't be so picky. You know I mean that it was unfair since the chances given are not equal given the korean environment being way better for players to practice. When there is no equality of chances, the system is flawed. That is where the state usually comes into play, and try adjusting it by injecting inputs and positive-discrimination in the system. It is what has been done with the current wcs system by blizzard. Private organisations are still chosing their own rules it is up to them. The word is correctly used when applied to foreigners though. Picky? Words have a certain meaning, if your intended meaning is not represented by the word you are using use another one. It should not be a guessing game as to what you mean when you use a word with a set definition. Yes the chances are equal. The only thing you cant reasonably be expected t to get as a foreigner is the same skill level practice partners as koreans have because you have now forbiden them from participating in the foreign scene. Even if you were right, which you are not, your point would be mute since having petter and/or more practice is irrelevant. Starcraft is supose to be a highly competative game. You can't make that claim with a straight face when you are artificially keeping a bunch of lesser players competative by removing their competition. Blizzard is picking winners and losers at this point which should not be their role.
Totally picky indeed.
If you prefer, see the foreign wcs system as special olympics. It is fair and some people are allowed in it some are not. Environemental advantage is the same as physical advantage in this case.
The bonus point for you, is that by using this positive-discrimination Blizzard has a chance to widen his audience and market. I don't think they would throw money in it just for the sake of being so gentle and ethical.
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On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:23 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:10 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 06:40 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:20 Ppjack wrote:
[quote]
If in your world cheering for your own country or your home team is racist, you must not really enjoy any kind of sport except few matches a year.
edit: I just want the foreign players to be able to catch up. And anyway, cheering for someone is the opposite of rational. Just don't judge me on it and don't insult me at the same time... wtf No supporting your country isn't racist. Supporting a system that excludes a whole country because your country can only beat them 1 time out of 20 is. whoa... whoa...whoa? i'm racist because i support the WCS 2016? really? Did I stutter? lol, when u put together a better league system let me know and i'll take a look at it. as of now i'm supporting the most entertaining option at my disposal, namely, WCS 2016. have fun claiming i'm racist though I don't need to claim it. Your support of the system speaks for itself i'm an entertainment consumer with a budget of $1,000 a year... if u can do a better job you can take my cash. so far, you offer me no alternative. SC2:LotV and WCS 2016 are my best options so i'm taking them and backing them with my cash. When you have something better.. lemme know. Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word
Korean is not a race.
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On January 22 2016 08:14 ddayzy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:23 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:10 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 06:40 showstealer1829 wrote:
[quote]
No supporting your country isn't racist. Supporting a system that excludes a whole country because your country can only beat them 1 time out of 20 is. whoa... whoa...whoa? i'm racist because i support the WCS 2016? really? Did I stutter? lol, when u put together a better league system let me know and i'll take a look at it. as of now i'm supporting the most entertaining option at my disposal, namely, WCS 2016. have fun claiming i'm racist though I don't need to claim it. Your support of the system speaks for itself i'm an entertainment consumer with a budget of $1,000 a year... if u can do a better job you can take my cash. so far, you offer me no alternative. SC2:LotV and WCS 2016 are my best options so i'm taking them and backing them with my cash. When you have something better.. lemme know. Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word No that is not the definition of racisme. Please stop trying to shut down discussion with inflamatory retoric, especially when you aren't even using it right.
Whatever Klansman, don't shoot the messenger
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 22 2016 08:12 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 08:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:08 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:23 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:[quote] lol, when u put together a better league system let me know and i'll take a look at it. as of now i'm supporting the most entertaining option at my disposal, namely, WCS 2016. have fun claiming i'm racist though I don't need to claim it. Your support of the system speaks for itself i'm an entertainment consumer with a budget of $1,000 a year... if u can do a better job you can take my cash. so far, you offer me no alternative. SC2:LotV and WCS 2016 are my best options so i'm taking them and backing them with my cash. When you have something better.. lemme know. Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word It isn't really based on race, it is based on skill and opportunity to get to that skill level. Koreans aren't banned because they are koreans. Masa was banned from the DH qualifier rofl. Well that's stupid i agree, but the main idea here should be quite obvious tbh. As i said before, the execution is somewhat questionable in some regards though. The execution and idea expressed by blizzard/esl/dh is clear. Nationality matters. Not skill. That's your own interpretation.
Nah i don't agree at all. Polt is a good example. Everybody loves him because he actually tries to be entertaining (speak english, etc)
The problem is that most koreans don't do that, foreigners (for obvious reasons do exactly that). In the end it's all about entertainment and not competetive integrity, but that shouldn't be new.
It looks racist because in this instant we have a weird situation, ONE country is way better than anyone else. It's even weirder because the viewers in that country don't even care about their players all that much.
Calling it racist misses the point entirely.
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On January 22 2016 08:14 Ppjack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 08:06 ddayzy wrote:On January 22 2016 07:45 Ppjack wrote:On January 22 2016 07:03 ddayzy wrote:On January 22 2016 06:58 Ppjack wrote:On January 22 2016 06:52 Silvana wrote:On January 22 2016 06:46 Ctone23 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:40 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:20 Ppjack wrote:On January 22 2016 06:18 showstealer1829 wrote:
[quote]
I don't have to, you did it yourself If in your world cheering for your own country or your home team is racist, you must not really enjoy any kind of sport except few matches a year. edit: I just want the foreign players to be able to catch up. And anyway, cheering for someone is the opposite of rational. Just don't judge me on it and don't insult me at the same time... wtf No supporting your country isn't racist. Supporting a system that excludes a whole country because your country can only beat them 1 time out of 20 is. So we shouldn't cheer for our favorite player if they happen to be foreigner because they are essentially being "gifted"? I see this "racism" rhetoric popping up a lot recently and quite frankly if you feel that strongly about it, Blizzard is the company to talk to. Blizzard is the one who changed the system, just because I want to see Bunny or Uthermal do really well this year doesn't make me a racist at all and I'm getting sick of that term being thrown around so lightly. There's a difference between cheering for a player a supporting an unfair system that helps said player. I love Bunny and Snute for example, and I'm kinda happy they're gonna do better this year with the new system, but I still can think the system is wrong in some fundamentals and unfair. Do you see the difference? The system is believed to be an incentitive for foreigners to go pro. Then few events should be there to mesure the best foreigners with koreans. What do you not like ? I really liked the old WCS system, but it was just not fair that players profiting from it where not helping the foreign scene (barely playing on the ladder, flying to korea to prepare, ...) It was welfare for them since they profit from high training environment and come to foreignland to take the money. Now at least something is done and tried. Don't know if it is going to work, but it is done. This is bizzaro-logic, what you are saying makes no sense. The best players winning tournaments is welfare because they are training with the best players whaaaaaa..? The definition of welfare is receiving financial aid from the government or from a private organization because of hardship and need. How on Gods green earth can you make that definition fit with what you jsut said? I used this word by analogy with the welfare-foreigner-wcs term that is used. Don't be so picky. You know I mean that it was unfair since the chances given are not equal given the korean environment being way better for players to practice. When there is no equality of chances, the system is flawed. That is where the state usually comes into play, and try adjusting it by injecting inputs and positive-discrimination in the system. It is what has been done with the current wcs system by blizzard. Private organisations are still chosing their own rules it is up to them. The word is correctly used when applied to foreigners though. Picky? Words have a certain meaning, if your intended meaning is not represented by the word you are using use another one. It should not be a guessing game as to what you mean when you use a word with a set definition. Yes the chances are equal. The only thing you cant reasonably be expected t to get as a foreigner is the same skill level practice partners as koreans have because you have now forbiden them from participating in the foreign scene. Even if you were right, which you are not, your point would be mute since having petter and/or more practice is irrelevant. Starcraft is supose to be a highly competative game. You can't make that claim with a straight face when you are artificially keeping a bunch of lesser players competative by removing their competition. Blizzard is picking winners and losers at this point which should not be their role. Totally picky indeed. If you prefer, see the foreign wcs system as special olympics. It is fair and some people are allowed in it some are not. Environemental advantage is the same as physical advantage in this case. The bonus point for you, is that by using this positive-discrimination Blizzard has a chance to widen his audience and market. I don't think they would throw money in it just for the sake of being so gentle and ethical.
You were talking about showing foreign players more respect and now you are comparing them to the special olympic? Do you have a another meaning for the word respect as well?
Physical advantage? You are not about to sugest that faster runners should be bared from competing in competitions because it is unfair to the slower runners?
Positive discrimwhaaaaat.....?
You think Blizzard is widening it's audience by offering lower quality Starcraft to their audience?
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On January 22 2016 08:17 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 08:14 ddayzy wrote:On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:23 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:10 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
[quote]
whoa... whoa...whoa?
i'm racist because i support the WCS 2016? really? Did I stutter? lol, when u put together a better league system let me know and i'll take a look at it. as of now i'm supporting the most entertaining option at my disposal, namely, WCS 2016. have fun claiming i'm racist though I don't need to claim it. Your support of the system speaks for itself i'm an entertainment consumer with a budget of $1,000 a year... if u can do a better job you can take my cash. so far, you offer me no alternative. SC2:LotV and WCS 2016 are my best options so i'm taking them and backing them with my cash. When you have something better.. lemme know. Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word No that is not the definition of racisme. Please stop trying to shut down discussion with inflamatory retoric, especially when you aren't even using it right. Whatever Klansman, don't shoot the messenger
Allow me to translate your text into english "I'm not worth talking to".
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On January 22 2016 08:23 ddayzy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 08:14 Ppjack wrote:On January 22 2016 08:06 ddayzy wrote:On January 22 2016 07:45 Ppjack wrote:On January 22 2016 07:03 ddayzy wrote:On January 22 2016 06:58 Ppjack wrote:On January 22 2016 06:52 Silvana wrote:On January 22 2016 06:46 Ctone23 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:40 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:20 Ppjack wrote:
[quote]
If in your world cheering for your own country or your home team is racist, you must not really enjoy any kind of sport except few matches a year.
edit: I just want the foreign players to be able to catch up. And anyway, cheering for someone is the opposite of rational. Just don't judge me on it and don't insult me at the same time... wtf No supporting your country isn't racist. Supporting a system that excludes a whole country because your country can only beat them 1 time out of 20 is. So we shouldn't cheer for our favorite player if they happen to be foreigner because they are essentially being "gifted"? I see this "racism" rhetoric popping up a lot recently and quite frankly if you feel that strongly about it, Blizzard is the company to talk to. Blizzard is the one who changed the system, just because I want to see Bunny or Uthermal do really well this year doesn't make me a racist at all and I'm getting sick of that term being thrown around so lightly. There's a difference between cheering for a player a supporting an unfair system that helps said player. I love Bunny and Snute for example, and I'm kinda happy they're gonna do better this year with the new system, but I still can think the system is wrong in some fundamentals and unfair. Do you see the difference? The system is believed to be an incentitive for foreigners to go pro. Then few events should be there to mesure the best foreigners with koreans. What do you not like ? I really liked the old WCS system, but it was just not fair that players profiting from it where not helping the foreign scene (barely playing on the ladder, flying to korea to prepare, ...) It was welfare for them since they profit from high training environment and come to foreignland to take the money. Now at least something is done and tried. Don't know if it is going to work, but it is done. This is bizzaro-logic, what you are saying makes no sense. The best players winning tournaments is welfare because they are training with the best players whaaaaaa..? The definition of welfare is receiving financial aid from the government or from a private organization because of hardship and need. How on Gods green earth can you make that definition fit with what you jsut said? I used this word by analogy with the welfare-foreigner-wcs term that is used. Don't be so picky. You know I mean that it was unfair since the chances given are not equal given the korean environment being way better for players to practice. When there is no equality of chances, the system is flawed. That is where the state usually comes into play, and try adjusting it by injecting inputs and positive-discrimination in the system. It is what has been done with the current wcs system by blizzard. Private organisations are still chosing their own rules it is up to them. The word is correctly used when applied to foreigners though. Picky? Words have a certain meaning, if your intended meaning is not represented by the word you are using use another one. It should not be a guessing game as to what you mean when you use a word with a set definition. Yes the chances are equal. The only thing you cant reasonably be expected t to get as a foreigner is the same skill level practice partners as koreans have because you have now forbiden them from participating in the foreign scene. Even if you were right, which you are not, your point would be mute since having petter and/or more practice is irrelevant. Starcraft is supose to be a highly competative game. You can't make that claim with a straight face when you are artificially keeping a bunch of lesser players competative by removing their competition. Blizzard is picking winners and losers at this point which should not be their role. Totally picky indeed. If you prefer, see the foreign wcs system as special olympics. It is fair and some people are allowed in it some are not. Environemental advantage is the same as physical advantage in this case. The bonus point for you, is that by using this positive-discrimination Blizzard has a chance to widen his audience and market. I don't think they would throw money in it just for the sake of being so gentle and ethical. You were talking about showing foreign players more respect and now you are comparing them to the special olympic? Do you have a another meaning for the word respect as well? Physical advantage? You are not about to sugest that faster runners should be bared from competing in competitions because it is unfair to the slower runners? Positive discrimwhaaaaat.....? You think Blizzard is widening it's audience by offering lower quality Starcraft to their audience?
positive-discrimination.
no fucking idea how to say that in english, but that is a thing.
we will see the audiences of such said low-quality starcraft.
i accept happily to be contradicted, that's the point of a forum/debate, but your tone makes me want to kill the next fly passing next to me.
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On January 22 2016 08:25 ddayzy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 08:17 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 08:14 ddayzy wrote:On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:23 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:10 showstealer1829 wrote:
[quote]
Did I stutter? lol, when u put together a better league system let me know and i'll take a look at it. as of now i'm supporting the most entertaining option at my disposal, namely, WCS 2016. have fun claiming i'm racist though I don't need to claim it. Your support of the system speaks for itself i'm an entertainment consumer with a budget of $1,000 a year... if u can do a better job you can take my cash. so far, you offer me no alternative. SC2:LotV and WCS 2016 are my best options so i'm taking them and backing them with my cash. When you have something better.. lemme know. Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word No that is not the definition of racisme. Please stop trying to shut down discussion with inflamatory retoric, especially when you aren't even using it right. Whatever Klansman, don't shoot the messenger Allow me to translate your text into english "I'm not worth talking to".
Allow me to translate your text into english "I can't face the truth so I'll back out of the argument"
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On January 22 2016 08:28 Ppjack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 08:23 ddayzy wrote:On January 22 2016 08:14 Ppjack wrote:On January 22 2016 08:06 ddayzy wrote:On January 22 2016 07:45 Ppjack wrote:On January 22 2016 07:03 ddayzy wrote:On January 22 2016 06:58 Ppjack wrote:On January 22 2016 06:52 Silvana wrote:On January 22 2016 06:46 Ctone23 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:40 showstealer1829 wrote:
[quote]
No supporting your country isn't racist. Supporting a system that excludes a whole country because your country can only beat them 1 time out of 20 is. So we shouldn't cheer for our favorite player if they happen to be foreigner because they are essentially being "gifted"? I see this "racism" rhetoric popping up a lot recently and quite frankly if you feel that strongly about it, Blizzard is the company to talk to. Blizzard is the one who changed the system, just because I want to see Bunny or Uthermal do really well this year doesn't make me a racist at all and I'm getting sick of that term being thrown around so lightly. There's a difference between cheering for a player a supporting an unfair system that helps said player. I love Bunny and Snute for example, and I'm kinda happy they're gonna do better this year with the new system, but I still can think the system is wrong in some fundamentals and unfair. Do you see the difference? The system is believed to be an incentitive for foreigners to go pro. Then few events should be there to mesure the best foreigners with koreans. What do you not like ? I really liked the old WCS system, but it was just not fair that players profiting from it where not helping the foreign scene (barely playing on the ladder, flying to korea to prepare, ...) It was welfare for them since they profit from high training environment and come to foreignland to take the money. Now at least something is done and tried. Don't know if it is going to work, but it is done. This is bizzaro-logic, what you are saying makes no sense. The best players winning tournaments is welfare because they are training with the best players whaaaaaa..? The definition of welfare is receiving financial aid from the government or from a private organization because of hardship and need. How on Gods green earth can you make that definition fit with what you jsut said? I used this word by analogy with the welfare-foreigner-wcs term that is used. Don't be so picky. You know I mean that it was unfair since the chances given are not equal given the korean environment being way better for players to practice. When there is no equality of chances, the system is flawed. That is where the state usually comes into play, and try adjusting it by injecting inputs and positive-discrimination in the system. It is what has been done with the current wcs system by blizzard. Private organisations are still chosing their own rules it is up to them. The word is correctly used when applied to foreigners though. Picky? Words have a certain meaning, if your intended meaning is not represented by the word you are using use another one. It should not be a guessing game as to what you mean when you use a word with a set definition. Yes the chances are equal. The only thing you cant reasonably be expected t to get as a foreigner is the same skill level practice partners as koreans have because you have now forbiden them from participating in the foreign scene. Even if you were right, which you are not, your point would be mute since having petter and/or more practice is irrelevant. Starcraft is supose to be a highly competative game. You can't make that claim with a straight face when you are artificially keeping a bunch of lesser players competative by removing their competition. Blizzard is picking winners and losers at this point which should not be their role. Totally picky indeed. If you prefer, see the foreign wcs system as special olympics. It is fair and some people are allowed in it some are not. Environemental advantage is the same as physical advantage in this case. The bonus point for you, is that by using this positive-discrimination Blizzard has a chance to widen his audience and market. I don't think they would throw money in it just for the sake of being so gentle and ethical. You were talking about showing foreign players more respect and now you are comparing them to the special olympic? Do you have a another meaning for the word respect as well? Physical advantage? You are not about to sugest that faster runners should be bared from competing in competitions because it is unfair to the slower runners? Positive discrimwhaaaaat.....? You think Blizzard is widening it's audience by offering lower quality Starcraft to their audience? positive-discrimination. no fucking idea how to say that in english, but that is a thing. we will see the audiences of such said low-quality starcraft. i accept happily to be contradicted, that's the point of a forum/debate, but your tone makes me want to kill the next fly passing next to me.
Quite frankly I have a hard time understanding what you mean at times and I suspect the language barrier is making what you write sound slightly more silly then it is. You also skip past 90% of my argument without answering it which makes it hard to discuss anything so the frustration is mutal. The best thing to do at that this point is probably to call it a day.
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On January 22 2016 07:26 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 07:24 NewSunshine wrote:On January 22 2016 07:10 showstealer1829 wrote:
Did I stutter? There's supporting the current WCS system, which I and many others don't do. Then there's being a racist, which he and I don't do(as far as I know). Then there's being an asshole, which I know for sure you've done. All different things. You're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant
I'm not sure how you project all of that onto me when I haven't said anything, but could you please stop shitting up this thread please? I'm surprised you haven't gotten hit for trolling yet.
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On January 22 2016 08:30 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 08:25 ddayzy wrote:On January 22 2016 08:17 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 08:14 ddayzy wrote:On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:23 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:[quote] lol, when u put together a better league system let me know and i'll take a look at it. as of now i'm supporting the most entertaining option at my disposal, namely, WCS 2016. have fun claiming i'm racist though I don't need to claim it. Your support of the system speaks for itself i'm an entertainment consumer with a budget of $1,000 a year... if u can do a better job you can take my cash. so far, you offer me no alternative. SC2:LotV and WCS 2016 are my best options so i'm taking them and backing them with my cash. When you have something better.. lemme know. Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word No that is not the definition of racisme. Please stop trying to shut down discussion with inflamatory retoric, especially when you aren't even using it right. Whatever Klansman, don't shoot the messenger Allow me to translate your text into english "I'm not worth talking to". Allow me to translate your text into english "I can't face the truth so I'll back out of the argument"
You are not trying to have a argument, you want to circumvent the argument by calling anyone who disagree with you racist. Which would be offensive if you didn't missuse it in such a obvious and hilarious way, but let's not kid ourselves, we both kno what you are doing...
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On January 22 2016 08:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 08:12 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:08 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:23 showstealer1829 wrote:
[quote]
I don't need to claim it. Your support of the system speaks for itself
i'm an entertainment consumer with a budget of $1,000 a year... if u can do a better job you can take my cash. so far, you offer me no alternative. SC2:LotV and WCS 2016 are my best options so i'm taking them and backing them with my cash. When you have something better.. lemme know. Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word It isn't really based on race, it is based on skill and opportunity to get to that skill level. Koreans aren't banned because they are koreans. Masa was banned from the DH qualifier rofl. Well that's stupid i agree, but the main idea here should be quite obvious tbh. As i said before, the execution is somewhat questionable in some regards though. The execution and idea expressed by blizzard/esl/dh is clear. Nationality matters. Not skill. That's your own interpretation. Nah i don't agree at all. Polt is a good example. Everybody loves him because he actually tries to be entertaining (speak english, etc) The problem is that most koreans don't do that, foreigners (for obvious reasons do exactly that). In the end it's all about entertainment and not competetive integrity, but that shouldn't be new. It looks racist because in this instant we have a weird situation, ONE country is way better than anyone else. It's even weirder because the viewers in that country don't even care about their players all that much. Calling it racist misses the point entirely.
The only reason Polt is in is because he has a visa. Nothing about being included in the scene (I guess MaSa isn't canadian enough right). If it was based on english skills Solar would be way more legit than Polt.
You should stop trying to demonstrate that the ban isn't nationality based when the MaSa case happened.
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SC2 competitive is just not fun for most people, hardcore RTS players included. It's easy to get the feeling SC2 players somehow represent the majority of RTS enthusiasts, but if you ever go outside of Starcraft focused communities like TL or the Starcraft subreddit, people will generally say good things about the campaign gameplay variety but otherwise mostly shit on the game as being a clickfest where mindless speed outweighs strategy, which is like 90% of the reason the vast majority of people play RTS games.
Of course they don't know the game like we do, but a lot of their criticism and subjective feeling about the game are justified because SC2 does objectively have some pretty stupid things that do make it a "clickfest", like the arbitrary macro mechanics and lack of a lot of utility function in the UI and control that would make it easier to manage. Also, at the level that most players enter the game, playing speedy far outweighs playing strategically smart, by a ton actually. TBH if these things were gone I think the game would automatically become exactly 120% more awesome, because the sick Korean APM would go into many multipronged unit micro battles which are infinitely more exciting to watch (and also to play) than seeing someones APM being pumped into putting down mules and checking how many drones they have at each expansion.
As long as these things exist, the game's community will remain relatively small imo and slowly fizzle out (now that no more expansions are on the horizon anymore), even with a magic skin marketplace and stuff, I don't think it's going to have quite the pull a game like CS:GO or LoL or Dota 2 has (not even nearly), purely because of the gameplay. Although I sure do hope I'm proven wrong.
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Since we have a few people discussing in good terms here, I'll make this question:
Why is it OK to reinforce nationalism? I personally believe the less nationalist we are the better.
I am not saying we souldn't look for people to which we can relate or identify, I'm saying we should try to change the fundamentals for that relation and identification: instead of basing it on nationality or language (things we don't choose when we are born), we should try to base it on more personal things like similar hobbies, attitudes, ways to approach the game, etc. (which we can choose)
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On January 22 2016 03:31 NonY wrote:
What exactly do you mean when you say the game died four years ago? Still today you can play ladder at any time of day and match against someone better than you within minutes. And if you happen to be really good at the game, you'll be flown out to tournaments all year and can play in front of live crowds and win a lot of money. So competitively, it's still doing well. Strategically, there's a ton of stuff to figure out in every matchup and different things to figure out on every map. How to use certain units is still being figured out. And mechanics can always be improved. So gameplay-wise, it's still doing well. For viewers, there are still more games being played than the vast majority of fans even have time to watch. And those games still contain top-notch mechanics and strategy and tactics and new things. I really don't understand how a player of the game or a viewer of tournaments can feel like it's dead right now. We must be thinking of completely different things, especially if it's been dead for four years. How does looking at viewer numbers affect any of these things? Let the people who have to worry about that worry about that and enjoy the game while it's alive, which won't be forever, while it still has plenty to offer.
Look, I understand your point ... I think it's just equivocation on the word "dead." I'm a Halo fan, and arguably Halo was "dead" in 2012-2014 but you could still play in tournaments and find competitive games online, so it "wasn't dead," according to your definition ...? Viewer numbers and scene growth are important.
What I'm trying to say is that the competitive SC2 scene has been contracting and/or stagnant since 2012. Orgs such as Cloud9 and TSM have not bothered picking up SC2 players because there's no point; EG and Liquid cut their player salaries by 80%. I literally can't remember the last time a new player entered the highest level of the Korean or foreign scenes. SC2 is dead compared to what it was and to what it could have been. The fact that it continues to exist at a steadily declining level (unlike SSBM, LoL, Dota 2, CS:GO, Smite ...) means that perhaps it's comatose rather than "dead."
To say that it's doing well competitively doesn't mean much; games like Shadowrun and Halo:CE are still played competitively, with a constantly evolving metagame, by a tiny amount of people ... and yes, very good SC2 players are rewarded financially, though not as much as in 2012. Salaries are lower and prize pools are (overall) lower.
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On January 22 2016 08:54 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 08:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:12 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:08 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
[quote]
i'm an entertainment consumer with a budget of $1,000 a year... if u can do a better job you can take my cash. so far, you offer me no alternative.
SC2:LotV and WCS 2016 are my best options so i'm taking them and backing them with my cash. When you have something better.. lemme know. Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word It isn't really based on race, it is based on skill and opportunity to get to that skill level. Koreans aren't banned because they are koreans. Masa was banned from the DH qualifier rofl. Well that's stupid i agree, but the main idea here should be quite obvious tbh. As i said before, the execution is somewhat questionable in some regards though. The execution and idea expressed by blizzard/esl/dh is clear. Nationality matters. Not skill. That's your own interpretation. Nah i don't agree at all. Polt is a good example. Everybody loves him because he actually tries to be entertaining (speak english, etc) The problem is that most koreans don't do that, foreigners (for obvious reasons do exactly that). In the end it's all about entertainment and not competetive integrity, but that shouldn't be new. It looks racist because in this instant we have a weird situation, ONE country is way better than anyone else. It's even weirder because the viewers in that country don't even care about their players all that much. Calling it racist misses the point entirely. The only reason Polt is in is because he has a visa. Nothing about being included in the scene (I guess MaSa isn't canadian enough right). If it was based on english skills Solar would be way more legit than Polt. You should stop trying to demonstrate that the ban isn't nationality based when the MaSa case happened.
It is nationality based because that is the easiest solution to the problem. Not because blizzard is trying to be racist.
On January 22 2016 09:08 Silvana wrote:
Since we have a few people discussing in good terms here, I'll make this question:
Why is it OK to reinforce nationalism? I personally believe the less nationalist we are the better.
I am not saying we souldn't look for people to which we can relate or identify, I'm saying we should try to change the fundamentals for that relation and identification: instead of basing it on nationality or language (things we don't choose when we are born), we should try to base it on more personal things like similar hobbies, attitudes, ways to approach the game, etc. (which we can choose)
It is "ok" because of the situation we are in. Fact is:
1. Koreans are way better than anyone else because they already have a huge infrastructure in place.
2. Koreans don't try all that hard to be entertaining for people who don't speak their language (you could argue that most korean players don't even try to be entertaining in their own language)
3. Sc2 (any esport/sport) is mostly entertainment
Can you see the problem? If people in general (i mean you know that i am not one of those  , i just play devil's advocate here) don't like to watch people they don't even understand, there is no competition in the first place.
This isn't even about racism, this is about tournaments/teams/korean players never trying to make korean players accessible for the mainstream audience.
We on teamliquid are the hardcore audience, we mostly (and that's not even true haha) care for the gameplay, people in general care about personalities first.
You need a balance of success and personality in sports to become a "star player"
We could have the situation where even the mainstream would care for Zest, herO, Maru, etc. But that's not where we are now.
The only logical approach is to have a tournament scene only for foreigners (even though i think it's way too late now most likely). The current execution is still questionable though (removing two starleagues in korea, removing any real international tournaments, etc)
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I do think that StarCraft is the only RTS (brood war and sc2) that remains well known, and so it will remain in a niche. I think we have a good span of maybe 10 more years with some sc2 pro play. It could be less, but that will only be because someone like valve will make a f2p RTS that is extremely similar to BW and it will be fucking awesome. Similar things are happening with smash, where I expect a f2p melee-like fighter to take over the scene.
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Well this wasn't the most positive introduction of SC2 to ESPN lol.
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On January 21 2016 06:44 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 06:39 LastManProductions wrote:
If people keep saying SC2 will die, it will die. I think people are saying SC2 is dying because it is. I don't know that you can successfully argue that it goes the other way around. If you're actually under the impression that the "SC2 is dying" concern is coming from no where and it has no foundation in reality, and that the concern by itself is undermining the game, you've got some serious work to do to prove that. Let me say it this way: games that are actually doing good don't have that systemic issue of passionate players raising the concerns about the game "dying".
This is true. It has been slowly dying sadly. Each expansion less and less friends come back. LotV I was the only one who even bothered, not even my training partners came.
It's not even like people WANT SC2 to die. It's that they are concerned because the game IS dying.
On January 21 2016 06:47 TheSayo182 wrote:
imho the main problem is the game itself...it is not fun to play and hard to learn
I think this is the main problem that needs to be solved if SC2 is going to survive. It needs to become a game that the majority of people who try it will enjoy - how SC1 was. SC2 is a game you need to go extremely hard in to enjoy and even then it is so volatile that many times it don't even feel fun or fair.
Blizzard has repaired so many games that had a subpar release and made them amazing games. BW, Frozen Throne, D2's expansion, made it in to new, much more enjoyable games. Even the modern releases which were even worse - D3, Hearthstone. D3 is now a game that many people are going back to every season, and HS is one of the top streamed games after being called too casual and RNG to ever be fun.
SC2... with more expansions than any of those games... has devolved if anything. Players steadily going down. Pros leaving. Reputation getting ruined more and more.
I do not think they can steer this ship another way without drastic measures. Beta seemed like they were taking drastic measures... then they just gave up before release and gave us this. Blizzard... the company who was known for delaying a game until it was "ready".
I wish that was still their motto, because SC2 LotV would have needed a LOT more work before it to actually be "ready".
Which, btw, I believe was their intent. Original store page said released March 2016. It would still be in beta right now. They said at beginning of LotV beta its going to be "much longer and bigger than any of their previous ones"... the amount of time in LotV beta was within 30 days of the time in HotS beta... They rushed LotV and this is the result.
We should not be surprised the game is not doing well.
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