|
On January 22 2016 09:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 08:54 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:12 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:08 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote:
[quote]
Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant
You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word It isn't really based on race, it is based on skill and opportunity to get to that skill level. Koreans aren't banned because they are koreans. Masa was banned from the DH qualifier rofl. Well that's stupid i agree, but the main idea here should be quite obvious tbh. As i said before, the execution is somewhat questionable in some regards though. The execution and idea expressed by blizzard/esl/dh is clear. Nationality matters. Not skill. That's your own interpretation. Nah i don't agree at all. Polt is a good example. Everybody loves him because he actually tries to be entertaining (speak english, etc) The problem is that most koreans don't do that, foreigners (for obvious reasons do exactly that). In the end it's all about entertainment and not competetive integrity, but that shouldn't be new. It looks racist because in this instant we have a weird situation, ONE country is way better than anyone else. It's even weirder because the viewers in that country don't even care about their players all that much. Calling it racist misses the point entirely. The only reason Polt is in is because he has a visa. Nothing about being included in the scene (I guess MaSa isn't canadian enough right). If it was based on english skills Solar would be way more legit than Polt. You should stop trying to demonstrate that the ban isn't nationality based when the MaSa case happened. It is nationality based because that is the easiest solution to the problem. Not because blizzard is trying to be racist. Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 09:08 Silvana wrote:
Since we have a few people discussing in good terms here, I'll make this question:
Why is it OK to reinforce nationalism? I personally believe the less nationalist we are the better.
I am not saying we souldn't look for people to which we can relate or identify, I'm saying we should try to change the fundamentals for that relation and identification: instead of basing it on nationality or language (things we don't choose when we are born), we should try to base it on more personal things like similar hobbies, attitudes, ways to approach the game, etc. (which we can choose) It is "ok" because of the situation we are in. Fact is: 1. Koreans are way better than anyone else because they already have a huge infrastructure in place. 2. Koreans don't try all that hard to be entertaining for people who don't speak their language (you could argue that most korean players don't even try to be entertaining in their own language) 3. Sc2 (any esport/sport) is mostly entertainment
People WATCH sports because they want to be entertained. People PLAY sports because they love the competition.
Sports scenes are made for the PLAYERS NOT THE AUDIENCE. It is their duty to protect their PLAYERS, protection of them should not be of more importance than increasing viewership.
On January 22 2016 08:15 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:23 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 07:10 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 06:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 22 2016 06:40 showstealer1829 wrote:
[quote]
No supporting your country isn't racist. Supporting a system that excludes a whole country because your country can only beat them 1 time out of 20 is. whoa... whoa...whoa? i'm racist because i support the WCS 2016? really? Did I stutter? lol, when u put together a better league system let me know and i'll take a look at it. as of now i'm supporting the most entertaining option at my disposal, namely, WCS 2016. have fun claiming i'm racist though  I don't need to claim it. Your support of the system speaks for itself i'm an entertainment consumer with a budget of $1,000 a year... if u can do a better job you can take my cash. so far, you offer me no alternative. SC2:LotV and WCS 2016 are my best options so i'm taking them and backing them with my cash. When you have something better.. lemme know. Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word Korean is not a race.
Is this guy serious? And are we seriously not going to address this outrageous comment?
|
He just means it's a nationality. Can we please stop this stupid focusing on that word?
|
On January 22 2016 09:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 08:54 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:12 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:08 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 07:50 showstealer1829 wrote:
[quote]
Like I said to the other guy you're actively supporting a system that bars players from one nation competing freely because they're better than your boys. That is racist, how you choose to justify that racism is irrelevant
You misuse the word "racist", pls stop. Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is) Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though. The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word It isn't really based on race, it is based on skill and opportunity to get to that skill level. Koreans aren't banned because they are koreans. Masa was banned from the DH qualifier rofl. Well that's stupid i agree, but the main idea here should be quite obvious tbh. As i said before, the execution is somewhat questionable in some regards though. The execution and idea expressed by blizzard/esl/dh is clear. Nationality matters. Not skill. That's your own interpretation. Nah i don't agree at all. Polt is a good example. Everybody loves him because he actually tries to be entertaining (speak english, etc) The problem is that most koreans don't do that, foreigners (for obvious reasons do exactly that). In the end it's all about entertainment and not competetive integrity, but that shouldn't be new. It looks racist because in this instant we have a weird situation, ONE country is way better than anyone else. It's even weirder because the viewers in that country don't even care about their players all that much. Calling it racist misses the point entirely. The only reason Polt is in is because he has a visa. Nothing about being included in the scene (I guess MaSa isn't canadian enough right). If it was based on english skills Solar would be way more legit than Polt. You should stop trying to demonstrate that the ban isn't nationality based when the MaSa case happened. It is nationality based because that is the easiest solution to the problem. Not because blizzard is trying to be racist. Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 09:08 Silvana wrote:
Since we have a few people discussing in good terms here, I'll make this question:
Why is it OK to reinforce nationalism? I personally believe the less nationalist we are the better.
I am not saying we souldn't look for people to which we can relate or identify, I'm saying we should try to change the fundamentals for that relation and identification: instead of basing it on nationality or language (things we don't choose when we are born), we should try to base it on more personal things like similar hobbies, attitudes, ways to approach the game, etc. (which we can choose) It is "ok" because of the situation we are in. Fact is: 1. Koreans are way better than anyone else because they already have a huge infrastructure in place. 2. Koreans don't try all that hard to be entertaining for people who don't speak their language (you could argue that most korean players don't even try to be entertaining in their own language) 3. Sc2 (any esport/sport) is mostly entertainment Can you see the problem? If people in general (i mean you know that i am not one of those  , i just play devil's advocate here) don't like to watch people they don't even understand, there is no competition in the first place. This isn't even about racism, this is about tournaments/teams/korean players never trying to make korean players accessible for the mainstream audience. We on teamliquid are the hardcore audience, we mostly (and that's not even true haha) care for the gameplay, people in general care about personalities first. You need a balance of success and personality in sports to become a "star player" We could have the situation where even the mainstream would care for Zest, herO, Maru, etc. But that's not where we are now. The only logical approach is to have a tournament scene only for foreigners (even though i think it's way too late now most likely). The current execution is still questionable though (removing two starleagues in korea, removing any real international tournaments, etc)
I'd be more comfortable with a solution that wasn't about nationality. I think the old system was pretty good, they could have still split the system with WCS Global and SSL/GSL and 8-8 spots for blizzcon. I guess the problem was ESL giving up on WCS. But blocking out players by nationality is not consistent with my liberal Western values. I'd expect China, Iran or Russia to do solve their issues like that, not an American company. Working and residency criteria, things that are based on qualification and can be achieved by everyone, yes. Birth certificates? No.
|
On January 22 2016 09:45 Penev wrote:
He just means it's a nationality. Can we please stop this stupid focusing on that word?
Really reads more like "Korean is not a race". Doesn't it?...
Ignoring that word is what got this system to where it is now.
While African Americans are being killed by cops lets keep ignoring that word.
While Michigan poisons Flint lets ignore that word.
While Trump incites hate lets ignore that word.
Since appeasing racial exclusionary policies works soooooo well....
EDIT: This isn't supporting the notion that supporting the current WCS system is being racist. I don't agree with that sentiment, you can support Trump without being racist but that doesn't make Trump not racist.
|
On January 22 2016 09:45 Penev wrote:
He just means it's a nationality. Can we please stop this stupid focusing on that word?
I guess not, wow
|
Nice article, but it really ignored the reasons for those players retiring.
|
On January 22 2016 09:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 09:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:54 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:12 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:08 sAsImre wrote:On January 22 2016 08:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2016 08:05 showstealer1829 wrote:On January 22 2016 07:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
You misuse the word "racist", pls stop.
Maybe the system isn't completely fair, but it isn't fair from the get go (koreans have a way easier time to actually get to that level, that's just how it is)
Giving foreigners the opportunity to do sc2 fulltime is great, at the same time removing 2 starleagues in korea and probably a lot of international tournaments is bad execution of the main idea though.
The definition of racist is someone who shows or supports discrimination or prejudice based on race. Please tell me how I'm misusing the word It isn't really based on race, it is based on skill and opportunity to get to that skill level. Koreans aren't banned because they are koreans. Masa was banned from the DH qualifier rofl. Well that's stupid i agree, but the main idea here should be quite obvious tbh. As i said before, the execution is somewhat questionable in some regards though. The execution and idea expressed by blizzard/esl/dh is clear. Nationality matters. Not skill. That's your own interpretation. Nah i don't agree at all. Polt is a good example. Everybody loves him because he actually tries to be entertaining (speak english, etc) The problem is that most koreans don't do that, foreigners (for obvious reasons do exactly that). In the end it's all about entertainment and not competetive integrity, but that shouldn't be new. It looks racist because in this instant we have a weird situation, ONE country is way better than anyone else. It's even weirder because the viewers in that country don't even care about their players all that much. Calling it racist misses the point entirely. The only reason Polt is in is because he has a visa. Nothing about being included in the scene (I guess MaSa isn't canadian enough right). If it was based on english skills Solar would be way more legit than Polt. You should stop trying to demonstrate that the ban isn't nationality based when the MaSa case happened. It is nationality based because that is the easiest solution to the problem. Not because blizzard is trying to be racist. On January 22 2016 09:08 Silvana wrote:
Since we have a few people discussing in good terms here, I'll make this question:
Why is it OK to reinforce nationalism? I personally believe the less nationalist we are the better.
I am not saying we souldn't look for people to which we can relate or identify, I'm saying we should try to change the fundamentals for that relation and identification: instead of basing it on nationality or language (things we don't choose when we are born), we should try to base it on more personal things like similar hobbies, attitudes, ways to approach the game, etc. (which we can choose) It is "ok" because of the situation we are in. Fact is: 1. Koreans are way better than anyone else because they already have a huge infrastructure in place. 2. Koreans don't try all that hard to be entertaining for people who don't speak their language (you could argue that most korean players don't even try to be entertaining in their own language) 3. Sc2 (any esport/sport) is mostly entertainment Can you see the problem? If people in general (i mean you know that i am not one of those , i just play devil's advocate here) don't like to watch people they don't even understand, there is no competition in the first place. This isn't even about racism, this is about tournaments/teams/korean players never trying to make korean players accessible for the mainstream audience. We on teamliquid are the hardcore audience, we mostly (and that's not even true haha) care for the gameplay, people in general care about personalities first. You need a balance of success and personality in sports to become a "star player" We could have the situation where even the mainstream would care for Zest, herO, Maru, etc. But that's not where we are now. The only logical approach is to have a tournament scene only for foreigners (even though i think it's way too late now most likely). The current execution is still questionable though (removing two starleagues in korea, removing any real international tournaments, etc) I'd be more comfortable with a solution that wasn't about nationality. I think the old system was pretty good, they could have still split the system with WCS Global and SSL/GSL and 8-8 spots for blizzcon. I guess the problem was ESL giving up on WCS. But blocking out players by nationality is not consistent with my liberal Western values. I'd expect China, Iran or Russia to do solve their issues like that, not an American company. Working and residency criteria, things that are based on qualification and can be achieved by everyone, yes. Birth certificates? No.
It is only about nationality (well the solution is about nationality) because the problem we face is created in a way the current system (ban koreans) kinda works.
I would have been happy with the system if wcs would be the same as last year, just fully region locked. We still could enjoy international tournaments (assuming these tournaments aren't a main reason we have the current solution, which probably isn't true though) and foreigners would have their own tournament system.
As i said before, we only talk about this right now because korean players, tournaments, etc FAILED to market korean players in an interesting way. It probably wasn't worth it though, would cost too much money.
Still, i don't see a good way to all the problems sc2 faces, at the end of the day the game probably isn't popular enough (worldwide AND in korea)
|
On January 22 2016 09:17 The_Red_Viper wrote: Can you see the problem? If people in general (i mean you know that i am not one of those , i just play devil's advocate here) don't like to watch people they don't even understand, there is no competition in the first place. This isn't even about racism, this is about tournaments/teams/korean players never trying to make korean players accessible for the mainstream audience. We on teamliquid are the hardcore audience, we mostly (and that's not even true haha) care for the gameplay, people in general care about personalities first. You need a balance of success and personality in sports to become a "star player"
You have a very practical approach and my question was very.. "philosophical" ^.^
I understand people have trouble connecting with those that don't speak their language and don't share their culture. But instead of making isolated scenes for each "group", shouldn't we work toward making each other connect via what actually brought us together?
I mean, if we were talking about what we should teach kids in school, it would make sense to have separate study plans for every region, due to cultural differences. But we are here because of Starcraft, your nationality and language shouldn't have any little bit of impact on how you enjoy the game.
To me, the fact that people gives so much importance to things like language, looks, culture, etc. means that we are not that much interested in Starcraft per se, but the show around it. And by show I don't mean the competition, I mean the players' behaviors outside the game. So what? Do we really care about the game as much as we claim? Or we are here just because of the people on it?
Starcraft is a game and thus it's meant to entertain, but I think we lost the balance on this. We are care more about the people playing it than the game itself. It's more a show than a competition. I am not a sports person so you guys tell me: does this happen too in traditional sports? Do Messi or Ronaldo have fans mostly because of their personalities? Or for the way they play football?
Edit: I'm derailing the thread so hard lol
|
I think this all comes down to fandom itself. Why do we choose someone we cheer for? Why do we keep cheering for him?
The first question probably comes down to a lot of factors, the second one is mostly because there is an emotional conncection (even if it makes very little sense because let's be real, nobody really KNOWS the people we cheer for)
Becoming a fan is way easier when you can identify with the "star" somehow though. (is he entertaining? does he play for the football team you are a fan of/KT rolster (), etc)
So yes i absolutely think most people (all people?) watch sports/esports because of the emotional connection, the gameplay is almost irrelevant at some point.
|
On January 22 2016 10:44 The_Red_Viper wrote:I think this all comes down to fandom itself. Why do we choose someone we cheer for? Why do we keep cheering for him? The first question probably comes down to a lot of factors, the second one is mostly because there is an emotional conncection (even if it makes very little sense because let's be real, nobody really KNOWS the people we cheer for) Becoming a fan is way easier when you can identify with the "star" somehow though. (is he entertaining? does he play for the football team you are a fan of/KT rolster ( ), etc) So yes i absolutely think most people (all people?) watch sports/esports because of the emotional connection, the gameplay is almost irrelevant at some point.
I used to be extremely passionate about certain players, so much so that them losing would affect my mood for the rest of the day. These days I couldn't care less who beats who, and because of that I don't feel very invested in anything anymore. Watching the pro scene for me is kind of like an old habit you just can't completely drop for whatever reason.
I will say that I do enjoy playing LotV more so than I did the other two expansions.
|
On January 22 2016 10:02 MaCRo.gg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 09:45 Penev wrote:
He just means it's a nationality. Can we please stop this stupid focusing on that word? Really reads more like "Korean is not a race". Doesn't it?... Ignoring that word is what got this system to where it is now. While African Americans are being killed by cops lets keep ignoring that word. While Michigan poisons Flint lets ignore that word. While Trump incites hate lets ignore that word. Since appeasing racial exclusionary policies works soooooo well.... EDIT: This isn't supporting the notion that supporting the current WCS system is being racist. I don't agree with that sentiment, you can support Trump without being racist but that doesn't make Trump not racist.
it is ATVI's and Blizzard's cash. they are creating excitement in parts of the world that will buy their games in the future in proportion with future projected buying patterns. not in proportion with where the best players are. South Korea is not where they generate the most revenue.
ATVI and Blizzard are in the business of SELLING VIDEO GAMES... not running leagues... the WCS is just a money loser designed to generate hype for future ATVI games and hype for stuff like that Nova campaign.
if someone wants to create this pie-in-the-sky, ideal, super-fair amazing league they can get a tourney license from Blizz and have a blast. the probability of generating a profit is zero so no one will ever do this.
|
Anyone who talks about race or discrimination with regard to WCS below this line is a certified moron:
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
|
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who tries to act like a conversation-limiting post is in any way a true "cover-all" above this line is a certified inferior being
|
what if the racists on Twitch and other places Blizzard is accomidating for were just a small group of racists from the Bible Belt?
|
SC2 e-sports growth or lack of is such a disappointment. I remembered the hype when the game got relesed and GSL announced. We had Fruitdealer, Artosis and Tasteless casting (Artosis even playing).
The feeling when waiting for GSL to come on air with the k-pop. Those were the days.
And here I thought that was only the beginning, from there it would only get bigger.
And look at the scene today.
I'm not sure what goes on in Blizz headquarters. If there are in it for the really long run so that when SC3 gets released in 15-20 years the foreign scene will be on par with Korea.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 22 2016 09:31 Doodsmack wrote:
Well this wasn't the most positive introduction of SC2 to ESPN lol.
IIRC the Blizzcon was on ESPN :-)
|
I can't see how WCS "bans" Koreans from participating. They can participate, but they need a valid visa and to actually live in the region. Nobody stops a korean player to apply for Athlete visa and to move to the USA or China in order to play in the WCS circuit. Nobody is saying "Koreans can't participate". How can you call this racism is beyond me.
|
On January 21 2016 06:21 WrathSCII wrote:
Nice article, it was an interesting read. But the problem is what will actually be done to save the Korean scene? From what I see, Blizzard seems to aim to downgrade the Korean scene to be in the same level as the international one instead the other way...
The problem isn't the WCS System, the problem is the game itself. Its too versatile, sometimes a single unit type or something hidden is enough to surprise and kill the opponent rather then control itself.
All the abilities and casts, mechanics that prevent battles in a war game (e.g. forcefields) and some other stuff and mechanics or that they fail to make interesting changes or compositions viable for years (like mech in TvP) . While it is great that all races are completely different in SC2, some things shouldn't be THAT different, since it is never ever possible to balance that out.
|
On January 22 2016 18:29 Pr0wler wrote:
I can't see how WCS "bans" Koreans from participating. They can participate, but they need a valid visa and to actually live in the region. Nobody stops a korean player to apply for Athlete visa and to move to the USA or China in order to play in the WCS circuit. Nobody is saying "Koreans can't participate". How can you call this racism is beyond me.
Simple. Koreans are the best, cause they exercise daily in the most competitive sorroundings. They have their staff there (coach) and other things that make them the best. FORCING them to move to another country or even continent in order to be able to compete takes a lot of opportunities away.
And this is something that is in no other sport. As a football player you can participate in the champions league, in the league you play and at the world cup at the same time.
|
On January 22 2016 19:39 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 18:29 Pr0wler wrote:
I can't see how WCS "bans" Koreans from participating. They can participate, but they need a valid visa and to actually live in the region. Nobody stops a korean player to apply for Athlete visa and to move to the USA or China in order to play in the WCS circuit. Nobody is saying "Koreans can't participate". How can you call this racism is beyond me.
Simple. Koreans are the best, cause they exercise daily in the most competitive sorroundings. They have their staff there (coach) and other things that make them the best. FORCING them to move to another country or even continent in order to be able to compete takes a lot of opportunities away. And this is something that is in no other sport. As a football player you can participate in the champions league, in the league you play and at the world cup at the same time.
As a football player you are forced to live in Europe in order to participate in the CL. Every region has their own equivalent. In the same way we have WCS Korea - for anyone who lives in Korea and WCS circuit for people that live outside of Korea.
So you are saying that forcing me to move to Korea in order to play in their league is different than forcing them to move to China, Honk Kong or Taiwan in order to participate in our league. And that is racism against the Koreans... Interesting.
If anything they are still privileged, because in the "World cup" at Blizzcon, they receive 8 spots (for one country) and the rest of the world gets 8. It would be much fairer if we had a region for every continent and each region gets 2 or 3 spots, but SC2 is just too small to support such system.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
