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Mute City2363 Posts
On January 20 2016 18:00 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 17:54 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On January 20 2016 17:48 noobPride wrote:
I really hope the foreign scene makes up for the death of Korean SC2
I also think this is actually the best time to throw a foreign team into PL, with an early meta and the game still evolving and definitely not figured out by anyone (just look at HOTS powerhouses and how quite a few of them have dropped off the radar)
Finding a team of foreigners who will be competitive, and also willing to give up that WCS $$$ is unlikelyimpossible Fixed that for you.
It was an understatement 
On January 20 2016 18:00 Horiken wrote:
I thought 2016 WCS system is OK, because Korean SC2 scene seems getting better and better since 2014. They have SSL/GSL and solid solid proleague, so i thought they can do well without foreign tournament. But after Prime matchfix and Sonic scandal, Korean SC2 is in huge trouble, new WCS system may be finishing blow.
How has the Korean scene got better since 2014? For every new player who's emerged, you can name 10 who have retired. Look at the fact that half the competitive player pool is now out of action in GSL for half a year; they might be getting $2k for making Code A, but on top of minimal salaries that's a laughable annual wage.
Anyone who thinks the Korean scene is healthy after the WCS changes is kidding themselves
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Guess the chances for 8 team PL are about zero
percent right now 
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55566 Posts
On January 20 2016 18:06 JonnySC2 wrote:Guess the chances for 8 team PL are about zero percent right now
They were already. KeSPA was only debating whether they go ahead with SBENU and have 7 teams or whether they ditch SBENU and go with 6.
Personally, I hope they let the team play regardless of sponsoring because the players would be too fucked otherwise.
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On January 20 2016 18:13 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 18:06 JonnySC2 wrote:Guess the chances for 8 team PL are about zero percent right now They were already. KeSPA was only debating whether they go ahead with SBENU and have 7 teams or whether they ditch SBENU and go with 6. Personally, I hope they let the team play regardless of sponsoring because the players would be too fucked otherwise.
Well I'm sure they would be let to play. But without sponsor no mney, who wants to play in PL without getting paid?
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You guys broke my dream hard, anyway I'll go on about it because hope doesn't hurt.
What do you think would create more hype and attract more viewers and interest into SC2? "Decaffeinated" tourneys (is this even valid English? in Spanish we use it to describe stuff with little interest) where only foreigners play each other and even then a Korean resident in NA/EU may win the whole thing? Or a western guy competing head to head with a korean with real chances to win?
I mean, look at Champions League. Arguably, the 10th best team in Spain's Liga or Premier League will probably better than the best Macedonian or Austrian team (no offense), but everyone agrees that there should be a limit on how many teams from the same country play. Let me remind everyone that there was a time when only the league champion played the next year's European Cup. That meant that Barça or R.Madrid (or both if the championship was won by someone else) missed one edition every year. That was crazy.
In SC2 I don't think Koreans should flood all foreign tournaments because it doesn't make sense from a product/marketing/viewership standpoint. But the option should be there to see how far away foreginers are when compared to Koreans. Wasn't it great when sjow beat life or when lilbow owned Hydra in last WCS finals?
I know (sadly) that it's not gonna happen, but still I am ready to convince anyone that it would actually be a good move to gather very good foreigners in a team and, yes, send them to Korea to compete. Giving away easy WCS money and such would be a minor loss compared to how big they'd become if they performed well, and sponsor-wise why would it be a bad move? Have your brand reach a market by advertising in one of its deepest rooted cultural entertainment?
Anyway not gonna happen
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can't even afford to change the name back to Startale
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 20 2016 18:04 thecrazymunchkin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 18:00 Phredxor wrote:On January 20 2016 17:54 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On January 20 2016 17:48 noobPride wrote:
I really hope the foreign scene makes up for the death of Korean SC2
I also think this is actually the best time to throw a foreign team into PL, with an early meta and the game still evolving and definitely not figured out by anyone (just look at HOTS powerhouses and how quite a few of them have dropped off the radar)
Finding a team of foreigners who will be competitive, and also willing to give up that WCS $$$ is unlikelyimpossible Fixed that for you. It was an understatement Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 18:00 Horiken wrote:
I thought 2016 WCS system is OK, because Korean SC2 scene seems getting better and better since 2014. They have SSL/GSL and solid solid proleague, so i thought they can do well without foreign tournament. But after Prime matchfix and Sonic scandal, Korean SC2 is in huge trouble, new WCS system may be finishing blow. How has the Korean scene got better since 2014? For every new player who's emerged, you can name 10 who have retired. Look at the fact that half the competitive player pool is now out of action in GSL for half a year; they might be getting $2k for making Code A, but on top of minimal salaries that's a laughable annual wage. Anyone who thinks the Korean scene is healthy after the WCS changes is kidding themselves
The audience numbers were getting bigger, so it looked that Korean SC2 scenes was getting better. Not sure from whom I saw this information though..
But even PL/GSL/SSL audience was getting bigger. No more empty places, unless that was payed crowd of course 
And yes, that thing about players is said, but teams need less players and the Korean SC2 scene is over-saturated. New WCS thingy didn't help with that, that's right
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55566 Posts
On January 20 2016 18:15 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 18:13 Elentos wrote:On January 20 2016 18:06 JonnySC2 wrote:Guess the chances for 8 team PL are about zero percent right now They were already. KeSPA was only debating whether they go ahead with SBENU and have 7 teams or whether they ditch SBENU and go with 6. Personally, I hope they let the team play regardless of sponsoring because the players would be too fucked otherwise. Well I'm sure they would be let to play. But without sponsor no mney, who wants to play in PL without getting paid?
It's not like they have much of a choice if they want their career to keep going. There's 2 seasons each of GSL and S2SL, and 1 confirmed KeSPA Cup. Players who don't get into either league/are eliminated early have literally nothing to do for months if they don't play Proleague.
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Mute City2363 Posts
On January 20 2016 18:16 noobPride wrote:
You guys broke my dream hard, anyway I'll go on about it because hope doesn't hurt.
What do you think would create more hype and attract more viewers and interest into SC2? "Decaffeinated" tourneys (is this even valid English? in Spanish we use it to describe stuff with little interest) where only foreigners play each other and even then a Korean resident in NA/EU may win the whole thing? Or a western guy competing head to head with a korean with real chances to win?
I mean, look at Champions League. Arguably, the 10th best team in Spain's Liga or Premier League will probably better than the best Macedonian or Austrian team (no offense), but everyone agrees that there should be a limit on how many teams from the same country play. Let me remind everyone that there was a time when only the league champion played the next year's European Cup. That meant that Barça or R.Madrid (or both if the championship was won by someone else) missed one edition every year. That was crazy.
In SC2 I don't think Koreans should flood all foreign tournaments because it doesn't make sense from a product/marketing/viewership standpoint. But the option should be there to see how far away foreginers are when compared to Koreans. Wasn't it great when sjow beat life or when lilbow owned Hydra in last WCS finals?
I know (sadly) that it's not gonna happen, but still I am ready to convince anyone that it would actually be a good move to gather very good foreigners in a team and, yes, send them to Korea to compete. Giving away easy WCS money and such would be a minor loss compared to how big they'd become if they performed well, and sponsor-wise why would it be a bad move? Have your brand reach a market by advertising in one of its deepest rooted cultural entertainment?
Anyway not gonna happen
People keep bringing up football to defend the WCS system when it's actually the worst analogy possible.
In football, teams are based in one country / region, where they compete; but essentially there are no limits on who they can sign (some exceptions granted, like in Germany / Italy, but not wholly applicable to this situation).
What does that equate to in Starcraft? Exactly what we had in 2013/14, where teams signed Koreans and sent them to play in the regions where that team was based.
Stop using football as an analogy
On January 20 2016 18:18 deacon.frost wrote:The audience numbers were getting bigger, so it looked that Korean SC2 scenes was getting better. Not sure from whom I saw this information though.. But even PL/GSL/SSL audience was getting bigger. No more empty places, unless that was payed crowd of course And yes, that thing about players is said, but teams need less players and the Korean SC2 scene is over-saturated. New WCS thingy didn't help with that, that's right
The issue isn't even that it's oversaturated; it's that there's no inflow of talent at all. It might look 'healthy' now, but what do you reckon is going to happen in a couple of years when the current generation head off to the military?
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55566 Posts
On January 20 2016 18:18 deacon.frost wrote:And yes, that thing about players is said, but teams need less players and the Korean SC2 scene is over-saturated. New WCS thingy didn't help with that, that's right
The foreign scene is even more oversaturated technically. What is done? They're given more opportunities. Meanwhile in Korea, opportunities are reduced and there's barely any new players to begin with.
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On January 20 2016 18:04 thecrazymunchkin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 18:00 Phredxor wrote:On January 20 2016 17:54 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On January 20 2016 17:48 noobPride wrote:
I really hope the foreign scene makes up for the death of Korean SC2
I also think this is actually the best time to throw a foreign team into PL, with an early meta and the game still evolving and definitely not figured out by anyone (just look at HOTS powerhouses and how quite a few of them have dropped off the radar)
Finding a team of foreigners who will be competitive, and also willing to give up that WCS $$$ is unlikelyimpossible Fixed that for you. It was an understatement Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 18:00 Horiken wrote:
I thought 2016 WCS system is OK, because Korean SC2 scene seems getting better and better since 2014. They have SSL/GSL and solid solid proleague, so i thought they can do well without foreign tournament. But after Prime matchfix and Sonic scandal, Korean SC2 is in huge trouble, new WCS system may be finishing blow. How has the Korean scene got better since 2014? For every new player who's emerged, you can name 10 who have retired. Look at the fact that half the competitive player pool is now out of action in GSL for half a year; they might be getting $2k for making Code A, but on top of minimal salaries that's a laughable annual wage. Anyone who thinks the Korean scene is healthy after the WCS changes is kidding themselves
Do you remember 2012-2013 proleague? that was sooo bad. Production is not good, audience is very low. After SPOTV starts proleague, audience/viewers get bigger, offline final was great success both 2014/2015. Of course they may be viewbotting/audiencebotting kappa.
User was warned for this post
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You can blame a lot on the WCS changes but they aren't the reason SC2 is declining in Korea...
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Though that sponsorship cancellation is not so surprising, the fact that they announced to everyone (including the player I assume) that the would keep it is just so irresponsible.
I don't see what could be the benefits of pretending this apart from keeping the players is a (dark) grey area.
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55566 Posts
On January 20 2016 18:35 sharkie wrote:
You can blame a lot on the WCS changes but they aren't the reason SC2 is declining in Korea...
No, they're just the reason the players on SBENU can't afford to miss Proleague.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 20 2016 18:24 thecrazymunchkin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 18:16 noobPride wrote:
You guys broke my dream hard, anyway I'll go on about it because hope doesn't hurt.
What do you think would create more hype and attract more viewers and interest into SC2? "Decaffeinated" tourneys (is this even valid English? in Spanish we use it to describe stuff with little interest) where only foreigners play each other and even then a Korean resident in NA/EU may win the whole thing? Or a western guy competing head to head with a korean with real chances to win?
I mean, look at Champions League. Arguably, the 10th best team in Spain's Liga or Premier League will probably better than the best Macedonian or Austrian team (no offense), but everyone agrees that there should be a limit on how many teams from the same country play. Let me remind everyone that there was a time when only the league champion played the next year's European Cup. That meant that Barça or R.Madrid (or both if the championship was won by someone else) missed one edition every year. That was crazy.
In SC2 I don't think Koreans should flood all foreign tournaments because it doesn't make sense from a product/marketing/viewership standpoint. But the option should be there to see how far away foreginers are when compared to Koreans. Wasn't it great when sjow beat life or when lilbow owned Hydra in last WCS finals?
I know (sadly) that it's not gonna happen, but still I am ready to convince anyone that it would actually be a good move to gather very good foreigners in a team and, yes, send them to Korea to compete. Giving away easy WCS money and such would be a minor loss compared to how big they'd become if they performed well, and sponsor-wise why would it be a bad move? Have your brand reach a market by advertising in one of its deepest rooted cultural entertainment?
Anyway not gonna happen People keep bringing up football to defend the WCS system when it's actually the worst analogy possible. In football, teams are based in one country / region, where they compete; but essentially there are no limits on who they can sign (some exceptions granted, like in Germany / Italy, but not wholly applicable to this situation). What does that equate to in Starcraft? Exactly what we had in 2013/14, where teams signed Koreans and sent them to play in the regions where that team was based. Stop using football as an analogy Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 18:18 deacon.frost wrote:The audience numbers were getting bigger, so it looked that Korean SC2 scenes was getting better. Not sure from whom I saw this information though.. But even PL/GSL/SSL audience was getting bigger. No more empty places, unless that was payed crowd of course And yes, that thing about players is said, but teams need less players and the Korean SC2 scene is over-saturated. New WCS thingy didn't help with that, that's right The issue isn't even that it's oversaturated; it's that there's no inflow of talent at all. It might look 'healthy' now, but what do you reckon is going to happen in a couple of years when the current generation head off to the military?
You cannot grow a talent when you have enough players. We need more retirements to get some talents. It's a terrible thing to write :/
On January 20 2016 18:27 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 18:18 deacon.frost wrote:And yes, that thing about players is said, but teams need less players and the Korean SC2 scene is over-saturated. New WCS thingy didn't help with that, that's right The foreign scene is even more oversaturated technically. What is done? They're given more opportunities. Meanwhile in Korea, opportunities are reduced and there's barely any new players to begin with.
Indeed. I agree
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On January 20 2016 18:04 thecrazymunchkin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 18:00 Phredxor wrote:On January 20 2016 17:54 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On January 20 2016 17:48 noobPride wrote:
I really hope the foreign scene makes up for the death of Korean SC2
I also think this is actually the best time to throw a foreign team into PL, with an early meta and the game still evolving and definitely not figured out by anyone (just look at HOTS powerhouses and how quite a few of them have dropped off the radar)
Finding a team of foreigners who will be competitive, and also willing to give up that WCS $$$ is unlikelyimpossible Fixed that for you. It was an understatement Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 18:00 Horiken wrote:
I thought 2016 WCS system is OK, because Korean SC2 scene seems getting better and better since 2014. They have SSL/GSL and solid solid proleague, so i thought they can do well without foreign tournament. But after Prime matchfix and Sonic scandal, Korean SC2 is in huge trouble, new WCS system may be finishing blow. How has the Korean scene got better since 2014? For every new player who's emerged, you can name 10 who have retired. Look at the fact that half the competitive player pool is now out of action in GSL for half a year; they might be getting $2k for making Code A, but on top of minimal salaries that's a laughable annual wage. Anyone who thinks the Korean scene is healthy after the WCS changes is kidding themselves
I heard a rumor that Leenock has a part time job outside esports, I wouldn't be surprised if the Korean scene moves closer to the foreign scene in terms of dedication and we see the overall level of play drop due to the players not being supported as well as before.
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On January 20 2016 17:34 Thouhastmail wrote:
Legend responded, "We want to participate in Proleague with new sponsor."
On January 20 2016 17:40 WrathSCII wrote:
6-team ProLeague...
??
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Mute City2363 Posts
On January 20 2016 18:37 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 18:35 sharkie wrote:
You can blame a lot on the WCS changes but they aren't the reason SC2 is declining in Korea... No, they're just the reason the players on SBENU can't afford to miss Proleague.
Look at it this way. Imagine you dumped the whole Korean prize pool for the year into one tournament in January, and that it is the only tournament run for Koreans all year.
What do you reckon is going to happen? Will players hang around for another year practicing for a tournament in 2017?
Reduce the number of opportunities, and it's going to lead to retirements
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I mean the team exists and it's not going away (atleast for now). I really don't get why KeSPA is still holding out. So what if they rebrand mid season? It's still the same team and they want to compete.
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On January 20 2016 18:47 REyeM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2016 17:34 Thouhastmail wrote:
Legend responded, "We want to participate in Proleague with new sponsor." ??
"Want" is not equivalent for "Can"
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EPT
