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On January 13 2016 14:52 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 11:38 crazedrat wrote:On January 12 2016 06:02 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On January 11 2016 03:04 EatingBomber wrote:On January 11 2016 00:31 Aegwynn wrote:On January 10 2016 23:56 Charoisaur wrote:On January 10 2016 23:47 Aegwynn wrote:
Would they consider increasing overlord speed for the first 5 seconds of the game? It is literally impossible to scout terran on certain maps, playing a zvt blindly isn't very strategic. And the bigger problem is with zvz which is too random maybe you could scout with a drone ...? or is that to much to ask? That can add even more randomness to the zvz, because drone scouting will leave you behind in mirror openings And obviously you can't drone scout terran because everything you need to see happens after the 2nd supply depot How will using 1 Drone to scout leave you behind? I think the information gathered, including the basic openings, is worth far more than having less than 100 minerals gathered than your opponent, more than easily made up for. Also, there are numerous ways to scout a Terran. A fast Lair/Pneuatized Carapace is one of them. cuz zerg eco is exponential and seeing an enemy drone scout as a zerg gives you almost as much info as drone scouting yourself - theres a reason nobody does it in high level zvz ZvZ is very volatile now and an early 1 drone scout is actually stronger with how the econ is changed. Because you start with 12 workers and cap at 16. People are going 17 hatch / overdroning to about 19 before transfering. By that time the drone is coming back. What you lose now is much less than before. Then you consider the value of having the information. Also, dealing with exponential curves, the higher overall worker count dilutes the cost, and larvae / map control put a cap on production so even in an ideal sense it is not actually such an exponential curve. Even if he does blindly open hatch, if you really are worried about the minerals, you know his gas timing so you adjust yours, you are fine. I like how you explain to a top-5 greatest foreigner how scouting works. Confidence. 
The metagame is always changing.
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On January 12 2016 19:26 GreenHealing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 06:02 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On January 11 2016 03:04 EatingBomber wrote:On January 11 2016 00:31 Aegwynn wrote:On January 10 2016 23:56 Charoisaur wrote:On January 10 2016 23:47 Aegwynn wrote:
Would they consider increasing overlord speed for the first 5 seconds of the game? It is literally impossible to scout terran on certain maps, playing a zvt blindly isn't very strategic. And the bigger problem is with zvz which is too random maybe you could scout with a drone ...? or is that to much to ask? That can add even more randomness to the zvz, because drone scouting will leave you behind in mirror openings And obviously you can't drone scout terran because everything you need to see happens after the 2nd supply depot How will using 1 Drone to scout leave you behind? I think the information gathered, including the basic openings, is worth far more than having less than 100 minerals gathered than your opponent, more than easily made up for. Also, there are numerous ways to scout a Terran. A fast Lair/Pneuatized Carapace is one of them. cuz zerg eco is exponential and seeing an enemy drone scout as a zerg gives you almost as much info as drone scouting yourself - theres a reason nobody does it in high level zvz Zerg economy being exponential has nothing to do with single drone, it just means that 1 drone is a lot less valuable than for other races.
it being exponential means each worker is more valuable in the early game other than for the minerals to build another base - the more minerals you have the more you can spend on drones (until no larvae left) - t + p are limited to 1 at a time per nex/cc. and in a standard zerg build order you are limited by minerals before being limited by larvae -> the more eco you get
On January 12 2016 21:41 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 06:02 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On January 11 2016 03:04 EatingBomber wrote:On January 11 2016 00:31 Aegwynn wrote:On January 10 2016 23:56 Charoisaur wrote:On January 10 2016 23:47 Aegwynn wrote:
Would they consider increasing overlord speed for the first 5 seconds of the game? It is literally impossible to scout terran on certain maps, playing a zvt blindly isn't very strategic. And the bigger problem is with zvz which is too random maybe you could scout with a drone ...? or is that to much to ask? That can add even more randomness to the zvz, because drone scouting will leave you behind in mirror openings And obviously you can't drone scout terran because everything you need to see happens after the 2nd supply depot How will using 1 Drone to scout leave you behind? I think the information gathered, including the basic openings, is worth far more than having less than 100 minerals gathered than your opponent, more than easily made up for. Also, there are numerous ways to scout a Terran. A fast Lair/Pneuatized Carapace is one of them. cuz zerg eco is exponential and seeing an enemy drone scout as a zerg gives you almost as much info as drone scouting yourself - theres a reason nobody does it in high level zvz Thanks for posting scarlett. Could you explain for a gold zerg what information you get by seeing the scout? That they go hatch first?
when you see a drone scout from the enemy it means they want to play reactive (or there is no reason to scout) -> they are playing defensive -> you can play greedier. if it's a fake drone scout and a 1base build or something it weakens their attack more than your increased greed (other than a 12pool + spine or some shit but thats awful and loses to anything)
On January 13 2016 11:38 crazedrat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 06:02 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On January 11 2016 03:04 EatingBomber wrote:On January 11 2016 00:31 Aegwynn wrote:On January 10 2016 23:56 Charoisaur wrote:On January 10 2016 23:47 Aegwynn wrote:
Would they consider increasing overlord speed for the first 5 seconds of the game? It is literally impossible to scout terran on certain maps, playing a zvt blindly isn't very strategic. And the bigger problem is with zvz which is too random maybe you could scout with a drone ...? or is that to much to ask? That can add even more randomness to the zvz, because drone scouting will leave you behind in mirror openings And obviously you can't drone scout terran because everything you need to see happens after the 2nd supply depot How will using 1 Drone to scout leave you behind? I think the information gathered, including the basic openings, is worth far more than having less than 100 minerals gathered than your opponent, more than easily made up for. Also, there are numerous ways to scout a Terran. A fast Lair/Pneuatized Carapace is one of them. cuz zerg eco is exponential and seeing an enemy drone scout as a zerg gives you almost as much info as drone scouting yourself - theres a reason nobody does it in high level zvz ZvZ is very volatile now and an early 1 drone scout is actually stronger with how the econ is changed. Because you start with 12 workers and cap at 16. People are going 17 hatch / overdroning to about 19 before transfering. By that time the drone is coming back. What you lose now is much less than before. Then you consider the value of having the information. Also, dealing with exponential curves, the higher overall worker count dilutes the cost, and larvae / map control put a cap on production so even in an ideal sense it is not actually such an exponential curve. Even if he does blindly open hatch, if you really are worried about the minerals, you know his gas timing so you adjust yours, you are fine.
there is so very rarely a situation you go gasless now though.. if you take gas then you will have 16 on mineral + 3 on gas without a scout and 20th drone rallied to natural as it finishes (and yea 17h is superior to 18h or 19h) - there is only a few seconds before gas finishes if hpg or a couple seconds before starting gas if hgp where you have more than 16 drones on minerals
~
the only thing worth seeing with a drone scout is 1base all in and it is easily defendable on any 2p map even if you dont see early with hatch pool gas ; on 4 player maps; yes it could help you - but you have to be lucky to go to correct base or you wont even see their build by the time you have to put down hatch or pool - with the current map pool the 4player maps also have less defendable naturals -> hatch first cant defend 14/14 well even if you know its coming after choosing build; anyways its better to just veto 4player maps if you dont wanna play zvz roulette
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-woops meant to edit mod plz DELETe-
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On January 14 2016 12:58 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 19:26 GreenHealing wrote:On January 12 2016 06:02 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On January 11 2016 03:04 EatingBomber wrote:On January 11 2016 00:31 Aegwynn wrote:On January 10 2016 23:56 Charoisaur wrote:On January 10 2016 23:47 Aegwynn wrote:
Would they consider increasing overlord speed for the first 5 seconds of the game? It is literally impossible to scout terran on certain maps, playing a zvt blindly isn't very strategic. And the bigger problem is with zvz which is too random maybe you could scout with a drone ...? or is that to much to ask? That can add even more randomness to the zvz, because drone scouting will leave you behind in mirror openings And obviously you can't drone scout terran because everything you need to see happens after the 2nd supply depot How will using 1 Drone to scout leave you behind? I think the information gathered, including the basic openings, is worth far more than having less than 100 minerals gathered than your opponent, more than easily made up for. Also, there are numerous ways to scout a Terran. A fast Lair/Pneuatized Carapace is one of them. cuz zerg eco is exponential and seeing an enemy drone scout as a zerg gives you almost as much info as drone scouting yourself - theres a reason nobody does it in high level zvz Zerg economy being exponential has nothing to do with single drone, it just means that 1 drone is a lot less valuable than for other races. it being exponential means each worker is more valuable in the early game other than for the minerals to build another base - the more minerals you have the more you can spend on drones (until no larvae left) - t + p are limited to 1 at a time per nex/cc. and in a standard zerg build order you are limited by minerals before being limited by larvae -> the more eco you get Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 21:41 Cascade wrote:On January 12 2016 06:02 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On January 11 2016 03:04 EatingBomber wrote:On January 11 2016 00:31 Aegwynn wrote:On January 10 2016 23:56 Charoisaur wrote:On January 10 2016 23:47 Aegwynn wrote:
Would they consider increasing overlord speed for the first 5 seconds of the game? It is literally impossible to scout terran on certain maps, playing a zvt blindly isn't very strategic. And the bigger problem is with zvz which is too random maybe you could scout with a drone ...? or is that to much to ask? That can add even more randomness to the zvz, because drone scouting will leave you behind in mirror openings And obviously you can't drone scout terran because everything you need to see happens after the 2nd supply depot How will using 1 Drone to scout leave you behind? I think the information gathered, including the basic openings, is worth far more than having less than 100 minerals gathered than your opponent, more than easily made up for. Also, there are numerous ways to scout a Terran. A fast Lair/Pneuatized Carapace is one of them. cuz zerg eco is exponential and seeing an enemy drone scout as a zerg gives you almost as much info as drone scouting yourself - theres a reason nobody does it in high level zvz Thanks for posting scarlett. Could you explain for a gold zerg what information you get by seeing the scout? That they go hatch first? when you see a drone scout from the enemy it means they want to play reactive (or there is no reason to scout) -> they are playing defensive -> you can play greedier. if it's a fake drone scout and a 1base build or something it weakens their attack more than your increased greed (other than a 12pool + spine or some shit but thats awful and loses to anything) Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 11:38 crazedrat wrote:On January 12 2016 06:02 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On January 11 2016 03:04 EatingBomber wrote:On January 11 2016 00:31 Aegwynn wrote:On January 10 2016 23:56 Charoisaur wrote:On January 10 2016 23:47 Aegwynn wrote:
Would they consider increasing overlord speed for the first 5 seconds of the game? It is literally impossible to scout terran on certain maps, playing a zvt blindly isn't very strategic. And the bigger problem is with zvz which is too random maybe you could scout with a drone ...? or is that to much to ask? That can add even more randomness to the zvz, because drone scouting will leave you behind in mirror openings And obviously you can't drone scout terran because everything you need to see happens after the 2nd supply depot How will using 1 Drone to scout leave you behind? I think the information gathered, including the basic openings, is worth far more than having less than 100 minerals gathered than your opponent, more than easily made up for. Also, there are numerous ways to scout a Terran. A fast Lair/Pneuatized Carapace is one of them. cuz zerg eco is exponential and seeing an enemy drone scout as a zerg gives you almost as much info as drone scouting yourself - theres a reason nobody does it in high level zvz ZvZ is very volatile now and an early 1 drone scout is actually stronger with how the econ is changed. Because you start with 12 workers and cap at 16. People are going 17 hatch / overdroning to about 19 before transfering. By that time the drone is coming back. What you lose now is much less than before. Then you consider the value of having the information. Also, dealing with exponential curves, the higher overall worker count dilutes the cost, and larvae / map control put a cap on production so even in an ideal sense it is not actually such an exponential curve. Even if he does blindly open hatch, if you really are worried about the minerals, you know his gas timing so you adjust yours, you are fine. there is so very rarely a situation you go gasless now though.. if you take gas then you will have 16 on mineral + 3 on gas without a scout and 20th drone rallied to natural as it finishes (and yea 17h is superior to 18h or 19h) - there is only a few seconds before gas finishes if hpg or a couple seconds before starting gas if hgp where you have more than 16 drones on minerals ~ the only thing worth seeing with a drone scout is 1base all in and it is easily defendable on any 2p map even if you dont see early with hatch pool gas ; on 4 player maps; yes it could help you - but you have to be lucky to go to correct base or you wont even see their build by the time you have to put down hatch or pool - with the current map pool the 4player maps also have less defendable naturals -> hatch first cant defend 14/14 well even if you know its coming after choosing build; anyways its better to just veto 4player maps if you dont wanna play zvz roulette
Well you can take a slower gas, don't have to go gasless. Prion and Ulrena I am not opening hatch, but gasless is good on Orbital. But on Dawn after scouting you take the gas at 1:40 ... faster gas isn't great there, you can oversaturate.. may as well scout, 13/12 can be good on Dawn, hard to scout with an ovi and bases are split... not good. Ruins you get an ovi scout in so it's not that bad, 50/50 chance, even late scout is better than no scout... diagonal surprise lings is not good. Central / Lerilak I am not opening hatch so I won't comment.
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EPT
