Making a list like this was always problematic. With nearly 5 years of gameplay there is a huge amount of information to parse. First, there is prestige of a tournament, measuring and making judgements on the GSL as compared to international LANS, tournament formats, and paths taken to the Championships. Next, the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats: the increased talent pool in modern times, the mass migration of KeSPA pros, and then the mass retirement of former KeSPA players and ESF players. Consistency over a long period of time as compared to peak/clutch has often been considered one of the most important measures, but their effect on the game itself is equally important. We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
Another thing to keep in mind is the tiering of tournaments. A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments. Blizzcon is at the highest because after 2013 it became the end all for the year, increasing the amount of pressure to win it. GSL is next as it has had the best format since Jan 2011, has the most preparation per round and has the best competition. The format and amount of players is what puts it slightly above the other Korean LANs like OSL, SSL, KeSPA/Hot6ix Cup, WCS KR 2012 and WCG KR. International tournaments are roughly below them, though depending on the player pool it can go all the way up being very close to GSL levels of prestige if many top players attended the event.
It is inevitable that many will argue for or against the inclusion or exclusion of certain players in the overall top 15 depending on what criteria you’ve used to judge their placing. However, as there is no definitive list to argue for or against, this is my attempt to codify a list of the all time greats as of this very moment.
“I don’t see the Ro8 as a win, it’s something you have to do.”
If I had to sum up VortiX’s career into one word it would be "Almost." He was always on the verge of almost being the consensus best foreigner in the world. He almost made it to the IEM Singapore Finals. He almost beat Golden to get to another Ro4 in WCS EU. He almost could have won IEM Cologne if Mvp wasn’t Mvp. He almost beat Stephano to become the winner of WCS EU 2012. Always just almost there, almost.
Instead VortiX ran out of steam, which was a shame really. He had the consistency of Nerchio. He was a top 5 foreigner for 2+ years and had consistently top results in WCS and multiple LANs. He was able to resoundingly overturn the community’s initial impressions of him as a PatchZerg by being one of the few top Zerg players from the end of 2012 to stay consistently at the top for nearly 2 years afterwards. LucifroN was always the more hyped of the brothers, but it was VortiX who had the staying power, VortiX who had the results, and VortiX who ultimately got the respect.
But VortiX lost interest in the game and moved on to Heroes of the Storm where he no longer had to constantly kill his brother in ritual combat in every tournament they played together. But the regret still lingers on. Perhaps if he had gone full time sooner, perhaps if he had more support to travel, perhaps if he had played just a little longer, he could have gotten there. Instead, just almost.
Playstyle:
VortiX was generally an aggressive macro player who liked to play the mid-to-late game. He was mostly focused on himself and was thus mostly immune to mind games and famously said, “Never mindgame a Spaniard” after his victory over Mvp and MMA in the Ro16 of WCS EU. If there was any failing it was that he could never make use of his preparation time as well as his opponents, causing him to lose out regularly in the WCS EU playoff stages. A very consistent player who always played each game with exact precision.
Difference between Vortix and Thorzain:
Vortix was a bit of a conundrum. Most of the players below him won lans. Bunny, DIMAGA, Lilbow, Thorzain, Jinro. However Vortix beat more top 10 players than all of them and has even beaten more than some of the players that placed ahead of him as well. Beyond his small 2012 stint, he even did it during a time when Zerg was slightly weaker than the other 2 races. All of that places him ahead of Thorzain, especially when you consider that most of Thorzain's victories were from a Terran dominant meta. Even excluding that, Vortix had a higher consistent peak than Thorzain that lasted longer (nearly 2 years compared to Thorzain's 1).
Nerchio’s role in SC2 is a bit of an enigma. He came from an amateur BW background and is one of Poland’s top 2 best players (the other being MaNa). He did fairly well from 2011. He peaked in 2012, and has since been churning out very steady results in 2013, 2014 and 2015. That’s not what makes him strange. What makes him strange is the consistency of it all. Nerchio for whatever reason, unlike the vast majority of pro SC2 players out there always puts up the exact same result for every year of SC2 that he’s played. In 2011 to mid 2012 he put up a bunch of Ro8s, something you’d expect from a top foreigner. In the latter half of 2012, when he peaked, he started picking up top placings and winning events. In 2013 he got 9-12th in nearly every event he went to and stayed exactly decent for the rest of his career.
Nerchio’s career is a strange one and needs to be studied. Not because of its success (though he was very successful), but how he attained that success. His training is atypical of Koreans and even most foreigners. He spent most of his time playing online cups for his practice, some ladder and less custom games (when it came to WCS for preparation). More than that he was a part-time student for a majority of his career which may have correlated to his much more relaxed mindset when it came to competition. We can even see other pro players do well after switching from full time to part-time player like Kane or Petraeus. An interesting parable of a player that provides an example that blindly following the Korean practice regime may not lead to certain success for the foreigner scene.
Playstyle:
Nerchio’s strength has always been in his calm calculation, his decision making and his precision. When watching his games both online and offline, his builds and decision making are almost always the same. His peak happened to coincide with the BL/infestor era, which naturally played into Nerchio’s hands as he liked to play strategically with a late game focus (much like Stephano).
Difference between Nerchio and Vortix:
In terms of consistency, the two players are fairly close in terms of consistency as Nerchio's run started at the latter half of 2011 to the end of 2012, while Vortix's was at the very end of 2012 the half way of 2014. In terms of pure players beaten, Vortix had beaten more top 10 players. He even played during a harder era in HotS for Zerg, while Nerchio's peak was during 2012 bl/infestor.
However Nerchio was still able to close and win lans, whereas all Vortix could manage were just high placings. That combined with the peak relative to their times and overall achievements meant that Nerchio barely edged out Vortix.
#8 | MaNa, The Pride of a Player
Achievements:
2nd WCS S3 2015
Top 8 IEM WC 2013
2nd ASUS Rog 2011
1st DH Summer 2012
Top 8 ASUS Summer 2012
Top 8 DH Winter 2012
3rd IEM Cologne 2011
2nd ESWC 2011
Top 4 DH Bucharest 2012
1st ESWC 2012
1st Who’s the Best European
2nd HSC II
2nd DH Winter 2010
“I chose the life of a pro gamer and a pro gamer gives his best to make the people that believe in him proud.” - MaNa
Keep trying. If there was ever any lesson you could take from MaNa’s career as an SC2 player it would be that. Keep trying. To understand the character of MaNa it is important to understand the context of his origins. He started incredibly young and was a BW player. We joke now about the dead game of SC2, but the foreign scene in BW was actually dead. The only person who could make a real living off of BW was Tasteless with his casting in Korea. For everyone else and especially the players, there were no salaries, no tournaments, no prize money, no streams. It was essentially a hobby, but one that consumed all of your time and attention if you wanted to be good at it.
That was probably part of the reason why he didn’t go all out from the very beginning in SC2. It was something he loved, but at the end of the day it is an insane risk and one very few people are willing to jump the chasm for. Yet even without going full time, he was still one of the better foreigners and had gotten multiple 2nd place finishes within his first year of play. In a sense he was a foreign Kong.
By 2012, MaNa had gone full time and won his first two LANs against DIMAGA and Stephano, the two players that had stopped him the previously. 2012 was the best year of MaNa’s career and if NaNiwa hadn’t been around, he would have been crowned the best foreign Protoss of that year.
Which brings us to HotS. In HotS MaNa struggled a lot more than previously. Both 2013 and 2014 were arguably his worst playing years as he was unable to finish highly in any of the top tournaments. He was always in the middle to upper tier of foreigners, but could never quite close out and get the big result. Until the very last WCS season of 2015 where he made a miracle run to get all the way to the finals.
There were a lot of things that made that run memorable. From the incredibly hard fought, almost miraculous wins that MaNa had to pull in nearly every round to get there to the fact that it was the season where it would be hosted in his home country of Poland. To me what makes it the most memorable is that MaNa did it nearly 3 years after his peak of skill. Nearly 3 years of turmoil, 3 years of constant practice, 3 years of middling results. Yet MaNa stayed true to his words and created one more miracle run for all of his fans in Poland who had believed in him the entire time. And the first step to that miracle was to keep trying. Over and over again, every day for nearly three years. and for that kind of mental strength, MaNa has my respect.
Playstyle:
Essentially there are three aspects in MaNa's play that he has used throughout his career to make his runs. First is that he not only makes builds, but thinks about them both in the context of the meta and the person he’s playing against and how the style would clash favoring one player over another. Secondly it is his decisiveness. He very rarely fumbles around at critical moments in the game, and while a decision he makes could be wrong, the decisiveness with which he makes that decision is often what allows him to win the game anyway. And finally, he is adaptable. He is just as willing to go towards the late game as he is to bust out a Soul Train or all-in, making it very hard to read on any given day what kind of build or style he will go for.
Difference between MaNa and Nerchio:
MaNa's career peak spans a similar time as Nerchio's. Even their fall off was the same as they both went into HotS where neither was a championship contending player, but still good enough to make it into the second group stages of WCS. The big difference is that MaNa used Protoss from 2011-2012 which was weaker than Zerg and more importantly he came back at the very end of HotS to get 2nd place at WCS Season 3 2015, clenching this spot over his eternal rival.
#7 | Idra, “This is a joke. Fuck you.”
Achievements:
Top 8 GSL Jan. 2011
Top 8 MLG Providence
Top 4 MLG Orlando
Top 4 MLG Columbus
2nd IEM Cologne 2010
1st MLG DC 2010
6th IEM WC 2011
7th MLG Dallas 2011
1st IEM Guangzhou 2011
"This means that an intelligent zerg will go 2 hatch, my build was designed to take advantage of that and so lost because he went 3 hatch. Going 3 hatch is utterly retarded for the reasons I just explained so yes I did lose because he did something dumb." - Idra on his loss to F91
Khaldor: Why would he leave with a 20k bank, even you wouldn’t leave in such a position. Idra: Don’t challenge me, you’d be surprised Cast from ASUS Rog - Goswer vs LucifroN
In nearly 5 years of play, there has not been a single American player that has outdone Idra in results (unless you count HuK as an American). Given what we know of Idra’s history and career, it was largely almost all hard work. He spent years grinding away in the CJ house in their B-team with nothing to show for it, so when the beta turned on, he switched over full time to SC2. After leaving the house, he continued that work ethic so long as he remained competitive.
And that coming year, Idra would fulfill his potential as he was immediately lauded as the best foreigner out of the beta and remained one of the best foreigners throughout 2011. Yet what drew fans to Idra wasn’t just his results, but also his theatrics. He was blunt, honest and had held no particular reservations when it came to voicing his opinions about anything, particularly balance and the way people played.
Or it could have been the way his tournaments always played out. Idra was always a very strong mechanical player with great understanding of the game, but especially the late game. Because of that it often felt like his opponents would catch him off guard with all-ins, clever builds or surprise attacks, in part just to infuriate him. Every time Idra won, a large crowd would gather. Every time he lost, an even larger crowd would gather for the resulting rage, which Idra often provided.
Idra’s skill made him a player people liked to watch. Idra’s personality made him a player everyone wanted to both win and lose in equal measure. As for Idra himself, the only thing that seemed to motivate him was his own competitive drive. He never hid the fact that he didn’t particularly like SC2 at all, but he was good at it and he liked competition. The kind of competition where both players went to the late game and the player with both the better mechanics and the better decision making won. When asked what his favorite games were, they were often always those types of games, his victory against Bomber or Nestea at MLG, his ladder game against Mvp, but never games like his victory against Boxer or his victory against elfi.
And when that competitive ambition burned out, he left the SC2 scene and left a hole that no foreign player could ever fill.
Playstyle:
Idra was a very mechanical player that loved to macro. However his specialty was oddly specific. It was long macro Zerg vs Bio games. Particularly muta ling bling games. Even though he was well known as a macro player, he did mix in all-ins like roach ling all ins vs Protoss or 6 pools, but it was never something he pulled out very often.
He also has a very analytical mind for the game and if you had ever listened in any of his casts, he seemed perfectly fine with advising players to go all-in to secure an easy victory that he couldn’t get normally. He analyzed games with a clinical objectivity that was at odds with his normal disdain of Protoss. The biggest example I can think of was his completely neutral and analytical cast of Hitman, arguably the cheesiest Protoss America had ever created. Which made it an odd dichotomy. Outside of the game, he could analyze when and why and how an all-in worked, but could never implement it himself. He often said a player was bad, but when in a significant disadvantage in a game, he’d rage quit rather than use his skill to make a comeback. A unique player who had the tools to win, but who often made you think his biggest obstacle was himself.
Difference between Idra and MaNa:
Idra's achievements were slightly behind MaNa in the grand scheme of things, like Nerchio. However a majority of Idra's wins came during the early phases of WoL when Zerg was weak. Idra was also much stronger relative to his competition compared to either Nerchio or MaNa. All 3 had similar careers, however Idra played against better players during his runs, in a worse meta and the difference in skill between the times of their peaks wasn't large enough to justify putting either Nerchio or MaNa ahead of Idra.
#6 | Sen, The Last of His Age
Achievements:
3rd Blizzcon 2011
3rd NASL 1
Top 4 WCS Worlds 2012
6th Blizzcon 2010
3rd NASL 2
1st TWOP 2014
3rd PPSL
Top 4 3rd Hong Kong eSports Tournament 2015
3rd TesL S2 2015
2nd TesL S4 2013
2nd TesL S3 2013
2nd TesL S2 2013
1st ECL 2013
Top 4 Star Wars S3
Top 4 Hong Kong eSports 2013
3rd TWOP 2013
2nd Star Wars 7
“I want Sen to win because I like him, he’s like White-Ra.” - Stephano about Sen in WCS 2015
At the age of 28, Sen is now the oldest competing foreigner in the world and has been so since DIMAGA’s retirement in 2013. Yet that isn’t the full story. Sen has been playing competitive RTS since 2004. Before SC2 came out he spent 6 years playing BW as the best TW player and one of the best foreigners. When we think about SC2 careers now, a vast majority of them have ended in 2-3 years. Sen’s BW “career” if you could call it that was already twice as long as a normal SC2 career. He then joined SC2 where he had a similar year to Idra in his 2010/2011 years of play. He got multiple 3rd places, so many to the point that many started calling it the Day9 curse because Sen had once called Day9 a noob.
Yet what makes Sen truly amazing are the next three years. Sen, compared to all of the other great foreign players, has gone to almost the fewest international LANs despite being a competitive player in SC2. The reasons are three fold. He lives in Taiwan and much like Chinese/SEA players, it is too expensive to fly around the world to justify playing a LAN. The second reason is related to the first; very few teams can justify paying a player to fly across the world which is why we rarely saw any players from that region until the creation of WCS. The final reason is that most international tournaments like IEM group the Chinese and SEA/TW qualifiers with Korean qualifiers, or have them compete against Korea in an overall Asian qualifier. This meant that Taiwanese players often had to defeat championship contenders just to qualify for the main event, reducing the odds of attending. They never received the opportunities that EU and NA players received from IEM LANs, and teams in CN/SEA/TW could not afford to send their players to open bracket tournaments unless they were held in their home region.
Yet despite all of those inherent limitations, Sen has made the most of his opportunities and in the years of 2012, 2013 and 2014, Sen always put up one big performance. In 2012 he showed up to WCS Worlds and got 4th place by beating 2 Korean players to get there. In 2013, he got 3rd in TWOP by defeating TY. In 2014 he won both a Major and a Premier tournament and was the only foreigner to win a Premier in HotS up to that point. All of this at an age where players years younger than him with better opportunities retired years before. He is in many ways the NesTea of the foreign world, a player who is pushing the upper boundaries of how old a SC2 pro player can be and stay competitive. An incredible foreigner that proves his worth again and again.
Playstyle:
Sen is an anomaly in his playstyle. He switches often from the muta ling bling style to the mass roaches without rhyme or reason, often going against what is considered to be the favored meta at the time. It is backed by his strong mechanics which is why he was able to out-multitask HerO in their WCS 2012 match. Generally speaking however, he has always had a weakness against Protoss and has generally tried to get over it with very strange builds and timings (in his PPSL run he proxy hached NaNiwa’s wall multiple times to take that series). Because of his lack of international presence, you never really know exactly what Sen will bring out at any time.
Difference between Idra and Sen:
They had similar 2010/2011 years with Idra having a higher peak. Both fell off a bit going into 2012, but the rest of Sen's career has Sen continually keep putting up high placings at lans over and over. Combine that with the fact that Sen played in many more metas Sen has played in and increasing difficulty made this a clear easy difference between the two players.
I think it should be mentioned that MaNa made it to Code S in GSL Season 4 2012. Personally I would have rated him quite higher and Idra lower. Idra peaked lower than Jinro in early WoL and then just dragged on longer, but with little success as well.
On January 04 2016 05:40 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So top 5 from here has to be
5. Scarlett 4. Snute 3. Huk 2. Naniwa 1. Stephano
Agreed, unless they put Snute ahead of HuK... but HuK should still definitely be ahead of Scarlett, and I can't think of anyone else besides these 5 who are deserving of the Top 5.
On January 04 2016 06:25 Big J wrote: I think it should be mentioned that MaNa made it to Code S in GSL Season 4 2012. Personally I would have rated him quite higher and Idra lower. Idra peaked lower than Jinro in early WoL and then just dragged on longer, but with little success as well.
Not true at all, Jinro peaked higher yes, but that's it. His peak didn't last long at all, and after that Idra had what, 2 great MLG runs and 3 or 4 tournament wins of varying importance. Terran was pretty heavily favoured and zerg was pretty damn bad at those times, and at the same time jinro was pioneering a new macro style that was kinda unheard of at the time(because it just wasnt really necessary). Despite this, one of those GSL runs for Jinro was kinda made on the back of a failed early pool from Idra. and if I remember correctly, that failure could've been attributed to shit soundproofing and a single marine living with 1hp or something lol. Jinro definitely doesn't deserve higher if that's what you meant, certainly not higher than Idra
Also I guess TLO doesn't make the cut. Looking at his results page this is a little disappointing, though he obviously lacks "that one" Premier championship.
On January 04 2016 07:09 Big J wrote: Also I guess TLO doesn't make the cut. Looking at his results page this is a little disappointing, though he obviously lacks "that one" Premier championship.
I like TLO but he loses to bad players all the time like State or pucK or whoever that was in Dreamhack. He has never come close to winning anything major.
It always seems like TLO is overthinking and trying to be too "meta" instead of just playing well and killing the opponent.
Idra 7th? You give credit to his early MLG results where he mostly faced NA players?
2 great MLG runs and 3 or 4 tournament wins of varying importance. Terran was pretty heavily favoured
Not really. Foreign terrans were basically nonexistant since early 2011. It was always a much harder race to play on a macrolevel whereas macro-zerg was more intuitive.
Serious? You give credit to his early MLG results where he only faced NA players?
He played good in GSL too. He was really good in the beginning, but he was his own biggest enemy.
If IdrA continued playing and had a better mindset he probably could've been #1 on this list.
It was always painful to watch IdrA, because you could exactly see the point where his will breaks. Especially versus inferior opponents who cheesed him.
2 great MLG runs and 3 or 4 tournament wins of varying importance. Terran was pretty heavily favoured
Not really. Foreign terrans were basically nonexistant since early 2011. It was always a much harder race to play on a macrolevel whereas macro-zerg was more intuitive.
Most of his impressive ZvT wins were against Koreans. He beat Mvp in a macro game on steppes of war, won a Bo5 vs Puma that led to him winning IEM, and won Bo7 extended series against Bomber and Boxer.
On January 04 2016 07:13 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Okay, Marinelord is going to be #1 on this list now right?
Online tournament with tired koreans.
Don't get me wrong it is a great achievement, but he needs to win big LAN tournaments to make the top 5.
Also it is already too late for that. The top 5 are (in no order) HuK, Scarlett, Stephano, Snute, Naniwa. If they now put in Marinelord they need to throw one out of the top 5 and then the whole list would be wrong since we already have 15-6 best players.
On January 04 2016 07:18 Foki wrote: So if the Top 5 are Scarlett, HuK, Snute, Naniwa and Stephano... Where is TLO? I think he definitely deserves a place in the top 15 foreigners...
Sorry to say but TLO doesn't deserve to be in the best foreigners just for being nice and humble.
TLO was never really strong and never had any major achievements.
Serious? You give credit to his early MLG results where he only faced NA players?
2 great MLG runs and 3 or 4 tournament wins of varying importance. Terran was pretty heavily favoured
Not really. Foreign terrans were basically nonexistant since early 2011. It was always a much harder race to play on a macrolevel whereas macro-zerg was more intuitive.
Most of his impressive ZvT wins were against Koreans. He beat Mvp in a macro game on steppes of war, won a Bo5 vs Puma that led to him winning IEM, and won Bo7 extended series against Bomber and Boxer.
No he won again MVP that failed a 2 rax on Steppes of War (yes rly, the RNG gods were agaisnt him I guess) and still lost the series quite convincly.
I give him the win against Puma though, since Puma actually was decent at the time.
With regards to Bomber, a ton of foreigners has beat him. And more importantly, he lost to a ton of koreans multiple times (which reduces his overall w/r %).
When weighting early MLG results that highly I feel you could make a case for Incontrol in top 30 or something like that.
2 great MLG runs and 3 or 4 tournament wins of varying importance. Terran was pretty heavily favoured
Not really. Foreign terrans were basically nonexistant since early 2011. It was always a much harder race to play on a macrolevel whereas macro-zerg was more intuitive.
Are you trying to say that in the early seasons of GSL, terran was not favoured vs zerg? Were we living on the same earth back then? Terran was a bit favoured on most of the maps even playing macro games, but terran had so many early game things they could do that macro terran was just barely necessary
EDIT: As for the weighing of MLGs, im pretty sure they're looking at MLG Columbus and Orlando, not the DC one that Idra won. Orlando was the one where the entire top8 was korea except for Idra and Huk, with koreans like polt, boxer, rain and Hero not making top8
On January 04 2016 07:13 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Okay, Marinelord is going to be #1 on this list now right?
Online tournament with tired koreans.
Don't get me wrong it is a great achievement, but he needs to win big LAN tournaments to make the top 5.
Also it is already too late for that. The top 5 are (in no order) HuK, Scarlett, Stephano, Snute, Naniwa. If they now put in Marinelord they need to throw one out of the top 5 and then the whole list would be wrong since we already have 15-6 best players.
On January 04 2016 07:18 Foki wrote: So if the Top 5 are Scarlett, HuK, Snute, Naniwa and Stephano... Where is TLO? I think he definitely deserves a place in the top 15 foreigners...
On January 04 2016 07:18 Foki wrote: So if the Top 5 are Scarlett, HuK, Snute, Naniwa and Stephano... Where is TLO? I think he definitely deserves a place in the top 15 foreigners...
Why?
Well, TLO has seeming consistency going for him. He made every season of WCS Premier as one of very few players. And at his best he could take series of some incredible players (like when he beat Bomber at IEM Sao Paolo). And he is Nostradario.
But in the end his peaks were never high enough, and his consistency is dubious because his WCS results were in a continuous up and down. So outside of top 15 is fine I think.
On January 04 2016 07:18 Foki wrote: So if the Top 5 are Scarlett, HuK, Snute, Naniwa and Stephano... Where is TLO? I think he definitely deserves a place in the top 15 foreigners...
Why?
Well, TLO has seeming consistency going for him. He made every season of WCS Premier as one of very few players. And at his best he could take series of some incredible players (like when he beat Bomber at IEM Sao Paolo). And he is Nostradario.
But in the end his peaks were never high enough, and his consistency is dubious because his WCS results were in a continuous up and down. So outside of top 15 is fine I think.
7 top8 3 top5 1 top4 1 top3 1 Major Tournament title in early WoL 2 GSL participations (first two GSLs) more price money than Idra, Jinro, Bunny and probably others on the list 9 consecutive WCS Premier seasons, i.e. all of them. Don't know how you can say his WCS results were up and down, because then literally everyone else's were too because they didn't even qualify everytime.
He is probably top3 or top5 when it comes to the number of deep Premier runs, which doesn't even count the consistency with which he qualified and placed top12 or top16, the only thing he doesn't have is a finals/championship.
On January 04 2016 07:18 Foki wrote: So if the Top 5 are Scarlett, HuK, Snute, Naniwa and Stephano... Where is TLO? I think he definitely deserves a place in the top 15 foreigners...
Why?
Well, TLO has seeming consistency going for him. He made every season of WCS Premier as one of very few players. And at his best he could take series of some incredible players (like when he beat Bomber at IEM Sao Paolo). And he is Nostradario.
But in the end his peaks were never high enough, and his consistency is dubious because his WCS results were in a continuous up and down. So outside of top 15 is fine I think.
7 top8 3 top5 1 top4 1 top3 1 Major Tournament title in early WoL 2 GSL participations (first two GSLs) more price money than Idra, Jinro, Bunny and probably others on the list 9 consecutive WCS Premier seasons, i.e. all of them. Don't know how you can say his WCS results were up and down, because then literally everyone else's were too because they didn't even qualify everytime.
He is probably top3 or top5 when it comes to the number of deep Premier runs, which doesn't even count the consistency with which he qualified and placed top12 or top16, the only thing he doesn't have is a finals/championship.
What I meant by the WCS remark is that he was having drastic shifts in form a lot. Sometimes top 8, other times RO32. This year he had that group where he went from getting completely owned on 1 day to crushing iaguz in the rematch on the next. Like, it looks consistent from the outside because he got into every season but internally it's much more fluctuating.
I love TLO but I can see how there wouldn't be space on this list for him despite all he did in his career. Especially since he never won anything that big.
I don't think you should count earnings at all really, that would just minimalize the impact of early accomplishments so much. For example, Huk got fucking 5k for WINNING an MLG in which he defeated Thestc, MKP, MC etc, whereas today that is what you would get for getting into premier league
IdrA higher than both VortiX and Nerchio? Or even higher than Jinro? He had big mouth about imbalances but during early GSL worse results than Jinro and he beat a few koreans when zerg was utterly strong, meh.
On January 04 2016 07:59 Aocowns wrote: I don't think you should count earnings at all really, that would just minimalize the impact of early accomplishments so much. For example, Huk got fucking 5k for WINNING an MLG in which he defeated Thestc, MKP, MC etc, whereas today that is what you would get for getting into premier league
I don't believe that earnings are actually considered here.
The first step was to take out criteria that I considered irrelevant in the making of the lists. Those criteria were: Money won Online Tournaments/Qualifiers
On January 04 2016 07:18 Foki wrote: So if the Top 5 are Scarlett, HuK, Snute, Naniwa and Stephano... Where is TLO? I think he definitely deserves a place in the top 15 foreigners...
Why?
Well, TLO has seeming consistency going for him. He made every season of WCS Premier as one of very few players. And at his best he could take series of some incredible players (like when he beat Bomber at IEM Sao Paolo). And he is Nostradario.
But in the end his peaks were never high enough, and his consistency is dubious because his WCS results were in a continuous up and down. So outside of top 15 is fine I think.
7 top8 3 top5 1 top4 1 top3 1 Major Tournament title in early WoL 2 GSL participations (first two GSLs) more price money than Idra, Jinro, Bunny and probably others on the list 9 consecutive WCS Premier seasons, i.e. all of them. Don't know how you can say his WCS results were up and down, because then literally everyone else's were too because they didn't even qualify everytime.
He is probably top3 or top5 when it comes to the number of deep Premier runs, which doesn't even count the consistency with which he qualified and placed top12 or top16, the only thing he doesn't have is a finals/championship.
I guess the problem for TLO is probably that he just never was a top 3-5 top foreigner at any point in time (besides maybe early WOL).
On January 04 2016 08:22 HugoBallzak wrote: Has foreigner terran EVER been favored in anything? List of foreigner terrans who won anything notable:
thorzain bunny
I mean that was always my initial point; that even though Korean terrans continued to perform very well in 2011, foreign terrans didn't, and thus I wouldn't give extra credit to a Zerg or protoss relative to a terran player.
But yeh, when we are talking about Jinro's 2010/very early 2011 results, I think its fair to discredit his results sligthly in favor of racial imbalance.
On January 04 2016 05:40 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So top 5 from here has to be
5. Scarlett 4. Snute 3. Huk 2. Naniwa 1. Stephano
Agreed, unless they put Snute ahead of HuK... but HuK should still definitely be ahead of Scarlett, and I can't think of anyone else besides these 5 who are deserving of the Top 5.
huk above snute is legit, i agree with SGTK
also stuchiuu said it was the hardest part for him and i understand, since chosing between mana and nerchio has been tough i suppose
On January 04 2016 07:37 t3tsubo wrote: Sepaking fo the Marinelord 5-0, I'm sad QXC won't make the list even though the pull off the first foreigner vs korea sc2 all kill.
I think that achievement is still vastly overrated. It should be noted for what it is: A foreigner terran beating Mvp in bo1 and not losing a few additional games to weak opponents. But the rest of the series (BBi, dreamerTT and horror) could have been the early rounds of a Go4. If IM would have taken that match seriously and send their whole real team out (Nestea, Losira, Yonghwa, YoDa and korean Happy in addition to Mvp), that match would have ended very differently and everybody knew that back then.
Don't get me wrong, a foreigner terran defeating Mvp is something, that should be noted, especially in 2011, so in combination with the "easy" wins I'd rate it about as high as GoOdy 2-0 MMA or Sjow 2-1 Life(maybe a slight bit higher) and probably higher than some of the TSL 3 upsets (GoOdy 2-1 Nestea, Adelscott 2-0 Mvp) . But for example DIMAGA ending Nesteas undefeated ZvZ-streak was a much bigger thing back then. Also keep in mind that in the same season of GSTL ThorZaIN and Fenix both did get tripple kills against partially more established players. (Just naming upsets here, ofc. a few other results were more impressive, but also more expected).
On January 04 2016 07:37 t3tsubo wrote: Sepaking fo the Marinelord 5-0, I'm sad QXC won't make the list even though the pull off the first foreigner vs korea sc2 all kill.
I think that achievement is still vastly overrated. It should be noted for what it is: A foreigner terran beating Mvp in bo1 and not losing a few additional games to weak opponents. But the rest of the series (BBi, dreamerTT and horror) could have been the early rounds of a Go4. If IM would have taken that match seriously and send their whole real team out (Nestea, Losira, Yonghwa, YoDa and korean Happy in addition to Mvp), that match would have ended very differently and everybody knew that back then.
Don't get me wrong, a foreigner terran defeating Mvp is something, that should be noted, especially in 2011, so in combination with the "easy" wins I'd rate it about as high as GoOdy 2-0 MMA or Sjow 2-1 Life(maybe a slight bit higher) and probably higher than some of the TSL 3 upsets (GoOdy 2-1 Nestea, Adelscott 2-0 Mvp) . But for example DIMAGA ending Nesteas undefeated ZvZ-streak was a much bigger thing back then. Also keep in mind that in the same season of GSTL ThorZaIN and Fenix both did get tripple kills against partially more established players. (Just naming upsets here, ofc. a few other results were more impressive, but also more expected).
Adel Mvp was incredibly funny (Mvp got his reaper surrounded by probes and stuff like that) because koreans weren't used at all to lag back then. It's not even an achievement.
On January 04 2016 07:37 t3tsubo wrote: Sepaking fo the Marinelord 5-0, I'm sad QXC won't make the list even though the pull off the first foreigner vs korea sc2 all kill.
I think that achievement is still vastly overrated. It should be noted for what it is: A foreigner terran beating Mvp in bo1 and not losing a few additional games to weak opponents. But the rest of the series (BBi, dreamerTT and horror) could have been the early rounds of a Go4. If IM would have taken that match seriously and send their whole real team out (Nestea, Losira, Yonghwa, YoDa and korean Happy in addition to Mvp), that match would have ended very differently and everybody knew that back then.
Don't get me wrong, a foreigner terran defeating Mvp is something, that should be noted, especially in 2011, so in combination with the "easy" wins I'd rate it about as high as GoOdy 2-0 MMA or Sjow 2-1 Life(maybe a slight bit higher) and probably higher than some of the TSL 3 upsets (GoOdy 2-1 Nestea, Adelscott 2-0 Mvp) . But for example DIMAGA ending Nesteas undefeated ZvZ-streak was a much bigger thing back then. Also keep in mind that in the same season of GSTL ThorZaIN and Fenix both did get tripple kills against partially more established players. (Just naming upsets here, ofc. a few other results were more impressive, but also more expected).
Adel Mvp was incredibly funny (Mvp got his reaper surrounded by probes and stuff like that) because koreans weren't used at all to lag back then. It's not even an achievement.
MVP's TvP was also really bad for a long period as well. I think he first got it fixed until he beat Naniwa.
I dont think Mvp ever had TvP fixed. He was using a bunch of mind games predicated on his opponents psychosis, their knowledge of him and basically just sucker punched his way past naniwa, parting and squirtle.
Mvp didnt know how to play TvP, but he knew how to play bo5s, bo7s and the player.
On January 04 2016 09:32 stuchiu wrote: I dont think Mvp ever had TvP fixed. He was using a bunch of mind games predicated on his opponents psychosis, their knowledge of him and basically just sucker punched his way past naniwa, parting and squirtle.
Mvp didnt know how to play TvP, but he knew how to play bo5s, bo7s and the player.
For me this is what describes the best players and not "he knew how to play tvp" xD
On January 04 2016 09:32 stuchiu wrote: I dont think Mvp ever had TvP fixed. He was using a bunch of mind games predicated on his opponents psychosis, their knowledge of him and basically just sucker punched his way past naniwa, parting and squirtle.
Mvp didnt know how to play TvP, but he knew how to play bo5s, bo7s and the player.
That was also my impression at the time, and I kept waiting for him to lose in actual macro games since it didn't feel like his unit control was good enough, but I still can't argue that he kept being relevant for much longer than what I thought.
Well, not too much surprise in the top 5, unless Scarlett didn't make the list at all and there's someone else in there. Either way, might be putting Scarlett a bit too high IMO. No premier tournament win
On January 04 2016 10:08 Big J wrote: zzz... you made me rewatch Mvp games. Such a strategical player, no Terran ever impressed me like that again. INnoVation comes close I guess.
Yeh, and I would even give him credit for inventing bio splitting though it was Marineking that popularized it.
There is no way that the top five at this point is nor Scarlett, Snute, Huk, Nani, Stephano I guess it is the order. At this point we can all assume Scarlett based off of results will be 5. That leaves Huk and Snute for 3/4 and Nani/Steph for 1/2. My final prediction is 5. Scarlett 4. Snute 3. Huk 2. Nani 1. Stephano
I think 1/2 is the hardest though because Naniwa could just as easily take it
I enjoyed these rankings so far and their write ups! Great work!
Based off of this, my final five would probably go:
1) Naniwa 2) Stephano 3) HuK 4) Snute 5) Scarlett
The biggest case I can make for Naniwa is how long he has lasted in this scene and at one point was basically considered the best foreigner we had seen in a long time during his GSL runs. I know Stephano had his tenure of success but I honestly think Naniwa went all out when trying to be the best player in the world at one point. We never got to see Stephano go to Korea for a long period of time and really train in that environment, while we saw players like HuK and Naniwa take the plunge and get incredible results.
Stephano only made it through GSL Code S Ro32 once, then got knocked out of Code A immediately afterwards. He did post a 6-5 record in Proleague, which is extremely solid with the EG-Liquid alliance that went on that year, but I'm not sure if that can compare to Naniwa's two GSL Ro8 runs, one ro32, and three Code A runs. Stephano definitely trumps Naniwa in prize money earned between the two, but I never got the sense that he faced nearly the competition and kept his skill level to what Nani did.
I remember my last event as a referee for MLG during the Fall 2012 Championships, and the fact that Naniwa was the only foreigner in the Top 16 that tournament (getting 9-12th) right when the Kespa switch had happened felt incredible and an achievement in itself. Naniwa has typically seemed to play in the tournaments where in my humble opinion, a high amount of Korean pros seem to dominate, and he is always in the mix as our one foreign hope to pull through.
If Stephano would not have ended his career so early, I think a solid argument could be made between the two on who deserves that title, but if you look at the results between him and Nani, and the level of competition that was at the events to two participated in, how could one not say Naniwa has battled through tougher tournaments and still performed well?
I think people will argue Naniwa because of his aggressive behavior that he presented himself as while Stephano was always the fan favorite of the two. I would say they are the two undisputed best foreigners we have seen in SC2 thus far, I am excited to see who is selected as The Greatest Foreigner.
I feel like there's a consensus on 5-3 - Scarlett 5, Snute 4, Huk 3. The only real question is whether Naniwa or Stephano takes #1. But then, that's always been the case.
Honorable mentions that didn't quite crack the Top 15: TLO, qxc, White-Ra, and Lucifron.
On January 04 2016 11:14 Baggins wrote: There is no way that the top five at this point is nor Scarlett, Snute, Huk, Nani, Stephano I guess it is the order. At this point we can all assume Scarlett based off of results will be 5. That leaves Huk and Snute for 3/4 and Nani/Steph for 1/2. My final prediction is 5. Scarlett 4. Snute 3. Huk 2. Nani 1. Stephano
I think 1/2 is the hardest though because Naniwa could just as easily take it
On January 04 2016 11:14 Baggins wrote: There is no way that the top five at this point is nor Scarlett, Snute, Huk, Nani, Stephano I guess it is the order. At this point we can all assume Scarlett based off of results will be 5. That leaves Huk and Snute for 3/4 and Nani/Steph for 1/2. My final prediction is 5. Scarlett 4. Snute 3. Huk 2. Nani 1. Stephano
I think 1/2 is the hardest though because Naniwa could just as easily take it
Can't decide myself for Naniwa or Stephano as best foreigner title.
I am a Naniwa fan. Based on pure results and money earned, Stephano seems the obvious choice. But still, Naniwa feels right-er for best foreigner title.
I believe his thirst for being the best is a quality Stephano didn't have (as much), and that really puts him up there for me.
On January 04 2016 14:25 alukarD wrote: Enjoyed it so far. Thank you.
Can't decide myself for Naniwa or Stephano as best foreigner title.
I am a Naniwa fan. Based on pure results and money earned, Stephano seems the obvious choice. But still, Naniwa feels right-er for best foreigner title.
I believe his thirst for being the best is a quality Stephano didn't have (as much), and that really puts him up there for me.
I think that Batle in Berlin should be added to Nerchio's notable results if Vasacast Invitational or Who's the Best Foreigner were mentioned.
Good list overall. One could argue about particular placements but it was pretty clear those are players deserving spots 6-10 and honestly it's not that important (or memorable) who's tenth and who's sixth. It will be much more significant for 1-5.
Kinda sad that Idra is 7th, but then I have to agree, that all the players above him(unless there's some Liquid bias it's Sen(duh :D), Snute, Scarlett, Huk, Nani and Stephano) have better results.
Idra could be easily #1, I was always awed by his mechanics and his ability to look so fluid with his builds even when something went wrong. But then again, he was mentally unstable
I guess it's kinda sad that most of the players are Zergs...
On January 04 2016 14:25 alukarD wrote: Enjoyed it so far. Thank you.
Can't decide myself for Naniwa or Stephano as best foreigner title.
I am a Naniwa fan. Based on pure results and money earned, Stephano seems the obvious choice. But still, Naniwa feels right-er for best foreigner title.
I believe his thirst for being the best is a quality Stephano didn't have (as much), and that really puts him up there for me.
What is this? Definitely not Stephanos fault if he didnt care about being the best. Some people like rather being "one of the best" than "the best". Because "the best" is always controversial.
Read the other article, it says that online results and money have no influence here.
edit: doesnt matter which ranking list, Stephano and Naniwa are always top2. "most dramatical players" or "biggest celebrete players" and whatever else.
On January 04 2016 18:36 deacon.frost wrote: Kinda sad that Idra is 7th, but then I have to agree, that all the players above him(unless there's some Liquid bias it's Sen(duh :D), Snute, Scarlett, Huk, Nani and Stephano) have better results.
Idra could be easily #1, I was always awed by his mechanics and his ability to look so fluid with his builds even when something went wrong. But then again, he was mentally unstable
I guess it's kinda sad that most of the players are Zergs...
His ZvP was too bad for that. Also, his multitasking was very subpar post 2011.
On January 04 2016 18:36 deacon.frost wrote: Kinda sad that Idra is 7th, but then I have to agree, that all the players above him(unless there's some Liquid bias it's Sen(duh :D), Snute, Scarlett, Huk, Nani and Stephano) have better results.
Idra could be easily #1, I was always awed by his mechanics and his ability to look so fluid with his builds even when something went wrong. But then again, he was mentally unstable
I guess it's kinda sad that most of the players are Zergs...
His ZvP was too bad for that. Also, his multitasking was very subpar post 2011.
On January 04 2016 14:25 alukarD wrote: Enjoyed it so far. Thank you.
Can't decide myself for Naniwa or Stephano as best foreigner title.
I am a Naniwa fan. Based on pure results and money earned, Stephano seems the obvious choice. But still, Naniwa feels right-er for best foreigner title.
I believe his thirst for being the best is a quality Stephano didn't have (as much), and that really puts him up there for me.
What is this? Definitely not Stephanos fault if he didnt care about being the best. Some people like rather being "one of the best" than "the best". Because "the best" is always controversial.
Read the other article, it says that online results and money have no influence here.
edit: doesnt matter which ranking list, Stephano and Naniwa are always top2. "most dramatical players" or "biggest celebrete players" and whatever else.
Snute and Scarlett are both miles ahead of NaNiwa lol, NaNiwa is barely top 5 thanks to him being a drama queen
On January 04 2016 18:07 stardog wrote: I think that Batle in Berlin should be added to Nerchio's notable results if Vasacast Invitational or Who's the Best Foreigner were mentioned.
Good list overall. One could argue about particular placements but it was pretty clear those are players deserving spots 6-10 and honestly it's not that important (or memorable) who's tenth and who's sixth. It will be much more significant for 1-5.
It's a bit of a difference in the opposition. To win Vasacast Invitational, Vortix had to beat SeleCT, ToD, MMA, Stardust and Jjakji, with Jaedong, Oz, Kas, Happy, MaNa and others also in the composition.
In Battle in Berlin, Nerchio and Stephano were the two big favorites and Stephano lost to GoOdy in the semifinal, so they didn't play eachother. The field had 8 good european players in it, but it isn't comparable to Vasacast Invitational (trust me, as a GoOdy-fan, I wish it would be, since that would make his second place even more meaningful).
On January 04 2016 14:25 alukarD wrote: Enjoyed it so far. Thank you.
Can't decide myself for Naniwa or Stephano as best foreigner title.
I am a Naniwa fan. Based on pure results and money earned, Stephano seems the obvious choice. But still, Naniwa feels right-er for best foreigner title.
I believe his thirst for being the best is a quality Stephano didn't have (as much), and that really puts him up there for me.
What is this? Definitely not Stephanos fault if he didnt care about being the best. Some people like rather being "one of the best" than "the best". Because "the best" is always controversial.
Read the other article, it says that online results and money have no influence here.
edit: doesnt matter which ranking list, Stephano and Naniwa are always top2. "most dramatical players" or "biggest celebrete players" and whatever else.
Snute and Scarlett are both miles ahead of NaNiwa lol, NaNiwa is barely top 5 thanks to him being a drama queen
I can see a point being made for Snute ahead of Naniwa, but Scarlett? Come on, this one isn't really even close, Naniwa is ahead of her in every relevant aspect. GSL, Premier tournament win(s), h2h, earnings, WCS points (even in Scarletts best year). Can you provide a single argument, why Scarlett should be ahead of Nani?
Hmm I was sure that Stephano would be number one and Naniwa would be number two but seeing as the writers takes racial strength during their respective peaks in to consideration I guess it is possible Naniwa could be number one.
On January 04 2016 14:25 alukarD wrote: Enjoyed it so far. Thank you.
Can't decide myself for Naniwa or Stephano as best foreigner title.
I am a Naniwa fan. Based on pure results and money earned, Stephano seems the obvious choice. But still, Naniwa feels right-er for best foreigner title.
I believe his thirst for being the best is a quality Stephano didn't have (as much), and that really puts him up there for me.
What is this? Definitely not Stephanos fault if he didnt care about being the best. Some people like rather being "one of the best" than "the best". Because "the best" is always controversial.
Read the other article, it says that online results and money have no influence here.
edit: doesnt matter which ranking list, Stephano and Naniwa are always top2. "most dramatical players" or "biggest celebrete players" and whatever else.
Snute and Scarlett are both miles ahead of NaNiwa lol, NaNiwa is barely top 5 thanks to him being a drama queen
Scarlett shouldn't even be top 5 and everything that has been said about Mana and Nerchio and why they are behind IdrA (lol) can be said about Snute too. As much as I dislike him, Naniwa is the clear number 2 with quite some room between him and #1 Stephano and him and #3 HuK.
On January 04 2016 20:45 Gullis wrote: Hmm I was sure that Stephano would be number one and Naniwa would be number two but seeing as the writers takes racial strength during their respective peaks in to consideration I guess it is possible Naniwa could be number one.
If that will be the case, Nanihaters will burn this place down I am sure.
Stephano will be 1st anyways because he is a likeable guy. I remember Naniwa is more feared by the Koreans(very subjective) + he has the passion. Maybe Leenock blocked this guy harder than it looks like but considering peeks I'd put Naniwa on top because I am biased.
On January 04 2016 14:25 alukarD wrote: Enjoyed it so far. Thank you.
Can't decide myself for Naniwa or Stephano as best foreigner title.
I am a Naniwa fan. Based on pure results and money earned, Stephano seems the obvious choice. But still, Naniwa feels right-er for best foreigner title.
I believe his thirst for being the best is a quality Stephano didn't have (as much), and that really puts him up there for me.
What is this? Definitely not Stephanos fault if he didnt care about being the best. Some people like rather being "one of the best" than "the best". Because "the best" is always controversial.
Read the other article, it says that online results and money have no influence here.
edit: doesnt matter which ranking list, Stephano and Naniwa are always top2. "most dramatical players" or "biggest celebrete players" and whatever else.
Snute and Scarlett are both miles ahead of NaNiwa lol, NaNiwa is barely top 5 thanks to him being a drama queen
Scarlett shouldn't even be top 5 and everything that has been said about Mana and Nerchio and why they are behind IdrA (lol) can be said about Snute too. As much as I dislike him, Naniwa is the clear number 2 with quite some room between him and #1 Stephano and him and #3 HuK.
She lacks trophies and results overall, but she was really good in that game. She has to be in the top there. After the "Holy Trinity" (Huk, Stephano, Naniwa), but on the top.
Edit> I would like to note that I personally hate her style and never liked her(she has weird voice, my ears!! ). And she had bad hair cut back then But I still think she should be in the top 5.
#10 Vortix - lol, he abuse 2 years of imba infestors and now he just switched to another game bcuz of nerf #9 Nerchio - really underrated, for me its top 3 after Stephano and Naniwa #8 Mana - sometimes delivering good games, good place imo #7 Idra - only achivements scored in NA server with 1-2 exceptions #6 Sen - dont know China? scene
PLS dont talk about TLO, he never scored good result. Beside of him, more valueable player is KAS. Wonder if Lucifron and White-ra can make it.
On January 04 2016 20:44 Xoronius wrote: It's a bit of a difference in the opposition. To win Vasacast Invitational, Vortix had to beat SeleCT, ToD, MMA, Stardust and Jjakji, with Jaedong, Oz, Kas, Happy, MaNa and others also in the composition.
In Battle in Berlin, Nerchio and Stephano were the two big favorites and Stephano lost to GoOdy in the semifinal, so they didn't play eachother. The field had 8 good european players in it, but it isn't comparable to Vasacast Invitational (trust me, as a GoOdy-fan, I wish it would be, since that would make his second place even more meaningful).
That's fair but Who's The Best European was similar to the Battle in Berlin - let's gather some of the best Europeans and throw them into a pit. WtBE had better format with group stage but BiB was offline which is even more meaningful. True, Stephano underperformed, but he was there so it shouldn't affect the tournament's prestige.
Not that it matters much and shouldn't make a big difference in this ranking but I think it was a solid trophy.
On January 04 2016 21:22 Niejadek wrote: #10 Vortix - lol, he abuse 2 years of imba infestors and now he just switched to another game bcuz of nerf #9 Nerchio - really underrated, for me its top 3 after Stephano and Naniwa #8 Mana - sometimes delivering good games, good place imo #7 Idra - only achivements scored in NA server with 1-2 exceptions #6 Sen - dont know China? scene
PLS dont talk about TLO, he never scored good result. Beside of him, more valueable player is KAS. Wonder if Lucifron and White-ra can make it.
You do realize, that Vortix best year was 2014, right? When BL/infestor was long gone.
On January 04 2016 20:44 Xoronius wrote: It's a bit of a difference in the opposition. To win Vasacast Invitational, Vortix had to beat SeleCT, ToD, MMA, Stardust and Jjakji, with Jaedong, Oz, Kas, Happy, MaNa and others also in the composition.
In Battle in Berlin, Nerchio and Stephano were the two big favorites and Stephano lost to GoOdy in the semifinal, so they didn't play eachother. The field had 8 good european players in it, but it isn't comparable to Vasacast Invitational (trust me, as a GoOdy-fan, I wish it would be, since that would make his second place even more meaningful).
That's fair but Who's The Best European was similar to the Battle in Berlin - let's gather some of the best Europeans and throw them into a pit. WtBE had better format with group stage but BiB was offline which is even more meaningful. True, Stephano underperformed, but he was there so it shouldn't affect the tournament's prestige.
Not that it matters much and shouldn't make a big difference in this ranking but I think it was a solid trophy.
Yeah, the offline component probably lifts it a bit; an inclusion probably couldn't hur. Also I didn't say, Stephano underperformed, I said Stephano lost to GoOdy. Given their personal record, that is something, that happens about halt the time they play, so I wouldn't call it underperforming.
Edit: Damn it, double post. forgot to copy/paste it into the other post, sry for that.
On January 04 2016 18:07 stardog wrote: I think that Batle in Berlin should be added to Nerchio's notable results if Vasacast Invitational or Who's the Best Foreigner were mentioned.
Good list overall. One could argue about particular placements but it was pretty clear those are players deserving spots 6-10 and honestly it's not that important (or memorable) who's tenth and who's sixth. It will be much more significant for 1-5.
A tournament that I didn't get paid for, e-sports hehe :D
On January 04 2016 20:45 Gullis wrote: Hmm I was sure that Stephano would be number one and Naniwa would be number two but seeing as the writers takes racial strength during their respective peaks in to consideration I guess it is possible Naniwa could be number one.
Considering part of the racial imbalance stemmed directly from Stephano (especially ZvP where he revolutionized the meta completely) he would most likely still be put as number one.
On January 04 2016 18:07 stardog wrote: I think that Batle in Berlin should be added to Nerchio's notable results if Vasacast Invitational or Who's the Best Foreigner were mentioned.
Good list overall. One could argue about particular placements but it was pretty clear those are players deserving spots 6-10 and honestly it's not that important (or memorable) who's tenth and who's sixth. It will be much more significant for 1-5.
A tournament that I didn't get paid for, e-sports hehe :D
Well, the first notable big winner in last 100 years(Red Army) got payed. Have you risen a Polish flag over the Reichstag? Maybe that's a condition to get payed
Just seems like there's something skewed about the human algorithm you've been using. Might be counting power of the race at the time, for too much? my top 10 would've probably looked like: Stephano Naniwa Huk Snute Sen MaNa Thorzain Nerchio Scarlett Idra Vortix.
Whereas your Scarlett at top 5, with no clue how to play finals of a tournament, sure her peak was high, but even when she was owning Koreans, she would've said Nerchio was the better Acer Zerg..
On January 04 2016 21:22 Niejadek wrote: #10 Vortix - lol, he abuse 2 years of imba infestors and now he just switched to another game bcuz of nerf #9 Nerchio - really underrated, for me its top 3 after Stephano and Naniwa #8 Mana - sometimes delivering good games, good place imo #7 Idra - only achivements scored in NA server with 1-2 exceptions #6 Sen - dont know China? scene
PLS dont talk about TLO, he never scored good result. Beside of him, more valueable player is KAS. Wonder if Lucifron and White-ra can make it.
I've never played Vortix but pretty much every time I've heard other pros talk about him it's with a shit ton of respect for how good he is, so I'm not that surprised he's up there.
On January 04 2016 21:22 Niejadek wrote: #10 Vortix - lol, he abuse 2 years of imba infestors and now he just switched to another game bcuz of nerf #9 Nerchio - really underrated, for me its top 3 after Stephano and Naniwa #8 Mana - sometimes delivering good games, good place imo #7 Idra - only achivements scored in NA server with 1-2 exceptions #6 Sen - dont know China? scene
PLS dont talk about TLO, he never scored good result. Beside of him, more valueable player is KAS. Wonder if Lucifron and White-ra can make it.
I've never played Vortix but pretty much every time I've heard other pros talk about him it's with a shit ton of respect for how good he is, so I'm not that surprised he's up there.
If I don't oversaw someone, Vortix also has the highest lifetime winrate against koreans out of any foreigner.
On January 04 2016 21:22 Niejadek wrote: #10 Vortix - lol, he abuse 2 years of imba infestors and now he just switched to another game bcuz of nerf #9 Nerchio - really underrated, for me its top 3 after Stephano and Naniwa #8 Mana - sometimes delivering good games, good place imo #7 Idra - only achivements scored in NA server with 1-2 exceptions #6 Sen - dont know China? scene
PLS dont talk about TLO, he never scored good result. Beside of him, more valueable player is KAS. Wonder if Lucifron and White-ra can make it.
I've never played Vortix but pretty much every time I've heard other pros talk about him it's with a shit ton of respect for how good he is, so I'm not that surprised he's up there.
If I don't oversaw someone, Vortix also has the highest lifetime winrate against koreans out of any foreigner.
If you take Offline Stephano is #1 and no one is even close and if you add Bo3+ it's not even funny
Scarlett shouldn't even be top 5 and everything that has been said about Mana and Nerchio and why they are behind IdrA (lol) can be said about Snute too. As much as I dislike him, Naniwa is the clear number 2 with quite some room between him and #1 Stephano and him and #3 HuK.
Snute had a long period where he was considered the best foreigner. Scarlett was also top 2 foreigner for a while.
On January 04 2016 21:22 Niejadek wrote: #10 Vortix - lol, he abuse 2 years of imba infestors and now he just switched to another game bcuz of nerf #9 Nerchio - really underrated, for me its top 3 after Stephano and Naniwa #8 Mana - sometimes delivering good games, good place imo #7 Idra - only achivements scored in NA server with 1-2 exceptions #6 Sen - dont know China? scene
PLS dont talk about TLO, he never scored good result. Beside of him, more valueable player is KAS. Wonder if Lucifron and White-ra can make it.
I've never played Vortix but pretty much every time I've heard other pros talk about him it's with a shit ton of respect for how good he is, so I'm not that surprised he's up there.
If I don't oversaw someone, Vortix also has the highest lifetime winrate against koreans out of any foreigner.
If you take Offline Stephano is #1 and no one is even close and if you add Bo3+ it's not even funny
I don't doubt, that Stephano overall is a greater player than Vortix. But the fact, that there is a metric, in which Vortix is nr. 1 is a strong argument for him overall deserving to be on this list.
Scarlett shouldn't even be top 5 and everything that has been said about Mana and Nerchio and why they are behind IdrA (lol) can be said about Snute too. As much as I dislike him, Naniwa is the clear number 2 with quite some room between him and #1 Stephano and him and #3 HuK.
Snute had a long period where he was considered the best foreigner. Scarlett was also top 2 foreigner for a while.
I think that perception was also created because of the big wave of retirments and semi-retirements in 2013-14 of top foreigners. The foreign competition fell off a bit at the pre-baguette times of HotS which put a bigger spotlight on those that were still performing well. But their actual placements at that time are probably worse than those of some of the players that swam in the wake of 2011-12 Stephano and Naniwa. I'd still rate Snute pretty high due to his extreme consistency at the very top of HotS competition, but I think with MaNa and Nerchio also being very consistent players for even longer and having higher placements to back it up Snute's spot in the top 5 becomes very arguable. Scarlett is a really hard case to rank at all. In terms of peak-skill there is no question she should be up there, you don't roll through S-class Koreans tournament after tournament without that. But she hardly has any results under her belt and that's by far the most important criterion for me in such a list and on top of that I wouldn't call her consistent.
he was the biggest "BW Elitist", you can possibly imagine with his comments like "the real game" and "makes everybody with a brain sad.." et al., yet all the guys who go full rage on that topic cheered him in his fan club like they didnt realize. Made me laugh sometimes :D
On January 04 2016 20:44 Xoronius wrote: It's a bit of a difference in the opposition. To win Vasacast Invitational, Vortix had to beat SeleCT, ToD, MMA, Stardust and Jjakji, with Jaedong, Oz, Kas, Happy, MaNa and others also in the composition.
In Battle in Berlin, Nerchio and Stephano were the two big favorites and Stephano lost to GoOdy in the semifinal, so they didn't play eachother. The field had 8 good european players in it, but it isn't comparable to Vasacast Invitational (trust me, as a GoOdy-fan, I wish it would be, since that would make his second place even more meaningful).
That's fair but Who's The Best European was similar to the Battle in Berlin - let's gather some of the best Europeans and throw them into a pit. WtBE had better format with group stage but BiB was offline which is even more meaningful. True, Stephano underperformed, but he was there so it shouldn't affect the tournament's prestige.
Not that it matters much and shouldn't make a big difference in this ranking but I think it was a solid trophy.
Yeah, the offline component probably lifts it a bit; an inclusion probably couldn't hur. Also I didn't say, Stephano underperformed, I said Stephano lost to GoOdy. Given their personal record, that is something, that happens about halt the time they play, so I wouldn't call it underperforming.
Edit: Damn it, double post. forgot to copy/paste it into the other post, sry for that.
I remember that game on metapolis (3rd map). If Goody came 5sec later he would lost that game pretty hard. He killed that spire few seconds before greater spire. Stephano's ~20 Corruptors did wait for it. Even if Stephano did put that spire at Mainbase or 3rd base he would have won that map too. Goody just run blindly to natural base.
Well, correct me if im wrong but i think naniwa was the last foreigner to ever qualify for code S. not only that but he made back to back round of 8's in code S, in addition to all the other stuff he's won making him not just one of the best foreigners but at the time one of the best players in the world period. All the other players on that list except huk got in due to seeds. And now that i think of it i might rate huk a little higher too because he had something like 6 or 7 code S appearances.
NaNiwa received a Code S seed for 2012 GSL Season 2
. Still weird having VortiX and Nerchio so low in the rankings, but I guess they'll still put Stephano #1 in order to make the ranking somehow serious.
Oh, Well still he made good use of his seed by getting to the round of 8 and the next season he actually earned the code S spot. Everyone else pissed their seed away by bombing out in the first round (except huk). And i guess this means huk is the only person to have earned his code s seeds on merit besides idra. Scarlett Snute Nerch Vortix etc have never even seen the inside of da gsl booth. So i might put huk at number 3 actually.
On January 05 2016 02:21 Woosixion wrote: Oh, Well still he made good use of his seed by getting to the round of 8 and the next season he actually earned the code S spot. Everyone else pissed their seed away by bombing out in the first round (except huk). And i guess this means huk is the only person to have earned his code s seeds on merit besides idra. Scarlett Snute Nerch Vortix etc have never even seen the inside of da gsl booth. So i might put huk at number 3 actually.
Not just HuK and Idra (and Jinro obv.); MaNa earned Code S as well, by making it through up&down groups.
O S1 (counting from Ro32): Idra, TLO O S2 (counting from Ro32): Idra, Loner O S3 (counting from Ro32): Idra, Ret, Jinro
Jan 11: Idra, Jinro Mar 11: Idra (W.O.), Jinro
GSL WC (whole tournament was seeded): HuK, White-Ra, DIMAGA, Sen, mOOnGLaDe, TT1, MorroW, Jinro May 11: Jinro, HuK GSL ST: Jinro, HuK Jul 11: HuK Aug 11: HuK Oct 11: HuK Nov 11: HuK S1 12: Idra (seed), Sen (seed) S2 12: Naniwa (seed) S3 12: Naniwa, ThorZaIN (seed) S4 12: MaNa, Naniwa S5 12: -- S1 13: HuK, Stephano (seed)
WCS KR S1 13: Stephano (W.O.)
So the last foreigners competing in GSL were HuK and Stephano. Stephano was the last one to qualify but withdrew in favor of WCS EU.
On January 05 2016 02:21 Woosixion wrote: Oh, Well still he made good use of his seed by getting to the round of 8 and the next season he actually earned the code S spot. Everyone else pissed their seed away by bombing out in the first round (except huk). And i guess this means huk is the only person to have earned his code s seeds on merit besides idra. Scarlett Snute Nerch Vortix etc have never even seen the inside of da gsl booth. So i might put huk at number 3 actually.
Not just HuK and Idra (and Jinro obv.); MaNa earned Code S as well, by making it through up&down groups.
Stephano too qualified for WCS Korea Season 1 2013, he forfeit his spot to play in Europe though
On January 05 2016 02:52 Big J wrote: Foreigners in GSL:
O S1 (counting from Ro32): Idra, TLO O S2 (counting from Ro32): Idra, Loner O S3 (counting from Ro32): Idra, Ret, Jinro
Jan 11: Idra, Jinro Mar 11: Idra (W.O.), Jinro
GSL WC (whole tournament was seeded): HuK, White-Ra, DIMAGA, Sen, mOOnGLaDe, TT1, MorroW, Jinro May 11: Jinro, HuK GSL ST: Jinro, HuK Jul 11: HuK Aug 11: HuK Oct 11: HuK Nov 11: HuK S1 12: Idra (seed), Sen (seed) S2 12: Naniwa (seed) S3 12: Naniwa, ThorZaIN (seed) S4 12: MaNa, Naniwa S5 12: -- S1 13: HuK, Stephano (seed)
WCS KR S1 13: Stephano (W.O.)
So the last foreigners competing in GSL were HuK and Stephano. Stephano was the last one to qualify but withdrew in favor of WCS EU.
Wasn't it mana who was the last to qualify, albeit by getting a seed in up and downs. I thought stephano got his seed directly to code S
On January 05 2016 02:52 Big J wrote: Foreigners in GSL:
O S1 (counting from Ro32): Idra, TLO O S2 (counting from Ro32): Idra, Loner O S3 (counting from Ro32): Idra, Ret, Jinro
Jan 11: Idra, Jinro Mar 11: Idra (W.O.), Jinro
GSL WC (whole tournament was seeded): HuK, White-Ra, DIMAGA, Sen, mOOnGLaDe, TT1, MorroW, Jinro May 11: Jinro, HuK GSL ST: Jinro, HuK Jul 11: HuK Aug 11: HuK Oct 11: HuK Nov 11: HuK S1 12: Idra (seed), Sen (seed) S2 12: Naniwa (seed) S3 12: Naniwa, ThorZaIN (seed) S4 12: MaNa, Naniwa S5 12: -- S1 13: HuK, Stephano (seed)
WCS KR S1 13: Stephano (W.O.)
So the last foreigners competing in GSL were HuK and Stephano. Stephano was the last one to qualify but withdrew in favor of WCS EU.
Wasn't it mana who was the last to qualify, albeit by getting a seed in up and downs. I thought stephano got his seed directly to code S
edit, he also went through up and downs,
Stephano got a Code S seed for Season 1 WoL 2013, got knocked out in the Ro32 group and then requalified through Up & Downs for the next GSL which was transformed into WCS Korea Season 1. Then he forfeited his spot. I'd say that counts as "qualified". HuK and MaNa both got seeded into Up & Downs and qualified from there.
I never liked Naniwa neither Stephano, but I must agree that Stephano is the best foreigner BY FAR. There was an after and before from Stephano in the whole game and scene, and even if he got pwned few times badly by koreans, the Naniwa pwnage was even worse...
I can not see how Stephano could be lower than Naniwa in the rank... seriosly, Stephano #1.
The more I look at it, the more I think Mana should be higher. 6 premier tournament finals is pretty crazy for a foreigner, even if most of them didn't have that many Koreans in it, and the fact that he remains a pretty good player to this day is impressive. I feel like he's kind of robbed at 8th.
Does anyone else agree that Huk will be #2? Huk on paper just has so much more going for him in my opinion. The only thing Naniwa seems to have over him is simply this 'aura' of that he was one bad ass player that nearly everyone feared playing but at the end of the day his results don't speak as loudly as Huk's and certainly not as loudly as Stephano's. Also, I don't think we can entirely discount Huk's career after his era of dominance, he continues to be a relevant player in the foreign scene to this day and still manages to take down players many wouldn't expect him to.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
On January 05 2016 06:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: The more I look at it, the more I think Mana should be higher. 6 premier tournament finals is pretty crazy for a foreigner, even if most of them didn't have that many Koreans in it, and the fact that he remains a pretty good player to this day is impressive. I feel like he's kind of robbed at 8th.
Agreed, he has a second place finish in 2010 and one in 2015 and he never really dropped off the map at any one point within this timeframe. When it comes to foreign play.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Isn't that the korean warcraft 3 player?
I don't even know any SC2 player by that name.
HuK had a very good run with Dreamhack and Homestory Cup win back to back over koreans and I can honestly say that although I don't even like him.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Isn't that the korean warcraft 3 player?
I don't even know any SC2 player by that name.
HuK had a very good run with Dreamhack and Homestory Cup win back to back over koreans and I can honestly say that although I don't even like him.
You might be thinking of Lucifer? although Lucifron did play Warcraft 3. Lucifer = Korean Undead, Lucifron = Spanish Orc.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Isn't that the korean warcraft 3 player?
I don't even know any SC2 player by that name.
HuK had a very good run with Dreamhack and Homestory Cup win back to back over koreans and I can honestly say that although I don't even like him.
Thisguyright here. He was pretty good. Possibly even the best foreigner at his peak. Then again same is true for HuK so...
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
Right, because HuK managed to participate in the GSL 11 times and win major tournaments while LucifroN.....?
HuK has been around since the beginning and shown incredible results from 2010 - 2015. He's been consistent and has shown an amazing work ethic in Starcraft II that many foreigners have not shown, and his results clearly show he has been a Top 5 foreigner. And it's not even his results that show he is a better player than LucifroN, he just clearly his and has been a feared foreigner for any player during his tenure playing Starcraft.
I feel like you are just trying to pick a fight with people.
Loved the article on Idra! (but no hallucination joke?) It would be cool if you could reference the specific games with hyperlinks in your text, it would be so nice to rewatch those games.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
Right, because HuK managed to participate in the GSL 11 times and win major tournaments while LucifroN.....?
HuK has been around since the beginning and shown incredible results from 2010 - 2015. He's been consistent and has shown an amazing work ethic in Starcraft II that many foreigners have not shown, and his results clearly show he has been a Top 5 foreigner.
I feel like you are just trying to pick a fight with people.
I'm not looking to pick a fight with people hence why I won't post anymore here after this post. Let's agree to disagree? Maybe we can agree that there's no requirement (not even being somewhat decent at Starcraft like being in gm league) to sign up at this site and post whatever?
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
Right, because HuK managed to participate in the GSL 11 times and win major tournaments while LucifroN.....?
HuK has been around since the beginning and shown incredible results from 2010 - 2015. He's been consistent and has shown an amazing work ethic in Starcraft II that many foreigners have not shown, and his results clearly show he has been a Top 5 foreigner.
I feel like you are just trying to pick a fight with people.
I'm not looking to pick a fight with people hence why I won't post anymore here after this post. Let's agree to disagree? Maybe we can agree that there's no requirement (not even being somewhat decent at Starcraft like being in gm league) to sign up at this site and post whatever?
Anyway, good evening. Im going to bed.
All good! Don't sweat! I just feel like there is a general consensus among many readers here that HuK clearly deserves a Top 5 nod on this piece. There is no doubt that LucifroN was an incredible Terran during his prime and probably should have been in this Top 15 ranking somewhere. I just feel he was not a Top 5 foreigner considering the last five players we have yet to see announced (and who we assume will place).
On January 05 2016 04:25 nimdil wrote: It will be weird with Scarlett in top 5 without a single premier title to her name but all things considered there's no way around it.
I feel that nerchio and mana have more results to show than scarlet. They just didnt have the overhype going for them
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
Right, because HuK managed to participate in the GSL 11 times and win major tournaments while LucifroN.....?
HuK has been around since the beginning and shown incredible results from 2010 - 2015. He's been consistent and has shown an amazing work ethic in Starcraft II that many foreigners have not shown, and his results clearly show he has been a Top 5 foreigner.
I feel like you are just trying to pick a fight with people.
I'm not looking to pick a fight with people hence why I won't post anymore here after this post. Let's agree to disagree? Maybe we can agree that there's no requirement (not even being somewhat decent at Starcraft like being in gm league) to sign up at this site and post whatever?
Anyway, good evening. Im going to bed.
I, for one, was with you, right until you equated "being somewhat decent at Starcraft" with "being gm league"... Let's not be disingenuously hyperbolic here.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
How do you determine, who understands the game? To give and obvious example: If elfi does a weird build, that isn't supposed to work, but it works anyway; does that mean, he is a bad player, because he doesn't play the game, "how it is supposed to be played" or does it make him a genius, because he found a counter to the norm?
Judging greatness by anything gameplay-related will only give you an opinion, which is depending on the judge. Results are not influnenced by anyones opinion. Results are truly objective. Results are the only way to achieve greatness.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
I love your claim that you understand the game, and that everyone who disagrees with you obviously doesn't. They really add to your argument.
I'm not sure what metric you think should be used to determine if a given player is "greater" than another. Skill? Disregarding how difficult quantifying the skill of a player is, the fact that different players peaked at different times for different lengths of times in different environments makes the comparison extremely subjective. Would you rate someone who was top 3 in the world for 3 months in 2012 when his race was weak higher than someone who was top 5 in the world for 6 months in 2014 when his race was strong? I dunno.
Additionally there is the argument that greatness is what you are able to achieve in the game, not how much raw skill you have; you could be the best player in the world, but as long as you can't perform when it matters you don't deserve to be called great.
Results are both a more quantifiable and tangible metric (though even there the valuation of given results is somewhat subjective), and one that better reflects how great a player is.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
I love your claim that you understand the game, and that everyone who disagrees with you obviously doesn't. They really add to your argument.
I'm not sure what metric you think should be used to determine if a given player is "greater" than another. Skill? Disregarding how difficult quantifying the skill of a player is, the fact that different players peaked at different times for different lengths of times in different environments makes the comparison extremely subjective. Would you rate someone who was top 3 in the world for 3 months in 2012 when his race was weak higher than someone who was top 5 in the world for 6 months in 2014 when his race was strong? I dunno.
Additionally there is the argument that greatness is what you are able to achieve in the game, not how much raw skill you have; you could be the best player in the world, but as long as you can't perform when it matters you don't deserve to be called great.
Results are both a more quantifiable and tangible metric (though even there the valuation of given results is somewhat subjective), and one that better reflects how great a player is.
MVP was the greatest player in the world during GSL Season 2 2012; he was also the weakest player in the whole of Code S. There are plenty of reasons to love a player completely unrelated to results, but any argument on greatness and their place in the pantheon has to start there.
On January 05 2016 04:25 nimdil wrote: It will be weird with Scarlett in top 5 without a single premier title to her name but all things considered there's no way around it.
I feel that nerchio and mana have more results to show than scarlet. They just didnt have the overhype going for them
They all have about the same level of results, but you're right about the hype thing. My only disagreement with the writers so far is that 9th is too low for Nerchio.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
Right, because HuK managed to participate in the GSL 11 times and win major tournaments while LucifroN.....?
HuK has been around since the beginning and shown incredible results from 2010 - 2015. He's been consistent and has shown an amazing work ethic in Starcraft II that many foreigners have not shown, and his results clearly show he has been a Top 5 foreigner.
I feel like you are just trying to pick a fight with people.
I'm not looking to pick a fight with people hence why I won't post anymore here after this post. Let's agree to disagree? Maybe we can agree that there's no requirement (not even being somewhat decent at Starcraft like being in gm league) to sign up at this site and post whatever?
Anyway, good evening. Im going to bed.
No, let's not agree to disagree. Ranking Lucifron over Huk in a 'greatest foreigners' list is categorically and undeniably wrong.
Results? Huk by a landslide. Longevity? Huk by a landslide (from beta until now) Peak? Huk by a landslide. Fame? Huk by a landslide. Head to head? They've never faced each other so N/A.
On January 05 2016 07:15 Footler wrote: Does anyone else agree that Huk will be #2? Huk on paper just has so much more going for him in my opinion. The only thing Naniwa seems to have over him is simply this 'aura' of that he was one bad ass player that nearly everyone feared playing but at the end of the day his results don't speak as loudly as Huk's and certainly not as loudly as Stephano's. Also, I don't think we can entirely discount Huk's career after his era of dominance, he continues to be a relevant player in the foreign scene to this day and still manages to take down players many wouldn't expect him to.
I was thinking this as well the 8 GSL appearances kind of help his case. Everyone keeps pointing to earnings but MLG Orlando was 5k which some people get for getting into premier. All of the earnings debates are pretty weak based off of the years tournaments were held.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
Right, because HuK managed to participate in the GSL 11 times and win major tournaments while LucifroN.....?
HuK has been around since the beginning and shown incredible results from 2010 - 2015. He's been consistent and has shown an amazing work ethic in Starcraft II that many foreigners have not shown, and his results clearly show he has been a Top 5 foreigner.
I feel like you are just trying to pick a fight with people.
I'm not looking to pick a fight with people hence why I won't post anymore here after this post. Let's agree to disagree? Maybe we can agree that there's no requirement (not even being somewhat decent at Starcraft like being in gm league) to sign up at this site and post whatever?
Anyway, good evening. Im going to bed.
No, let's not agree to disagree. Ranking Lucifron over Huk in a 'greatest foreigners' list is categorically and undeniably wrong.
Results? Huk by a landslide. Longevity? Huk by a landslide (from beta until now) Peak? Huk by a landslide. Fame? Huk by a landslide. Head to head? They've never faced each other so N/A.
Out of curiosity how do you feel about your own ranking on the list?
EDIT: As far as Huk is concerned of course he's in the top 5. I assume it will be Scarlett Snute Huk Naniwa Stephano
but could totally understand why Huk would be second
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
Right, because HuK managed to participate in the GSL 11 times and win major tournaments while LucifroN.....?
HuK has been around since the beginning and shown incredible results from 2010 - 2015. He's been consistent and has shown an amazing work ethic in Starcraft II that many foreigners have not shown, and his results clearly show he has been a Top 5 foreigner.
I feel like you are just trying to pick a fight with people.
I'm not looking to pick a fight with people hence why I won't post anymore here after this post. Let's agree to disagree? Maybe we can agree that there's no requirement (not even being somewhat decent at Starcraft like being in gm league) to sign up at this site and post whatever?
Anyway, good evening. Im going to bed.
No, let's not agree to disagree. Ranking Lucifron over Huk in a 'greatest foreigners' list is categorically and undeniably wrong.
Results? Huk by a landslide. Longevity? Huk by a landslide (from beta until now) Peak? Huk by a landslide. Fame? Huk by a landslide. Head to head? They've never faced each other so N/A.
Out of curiosity how do you feel about your own ranking on the list?
EDIT: As far as Huk is concerned of course he's in the top 5. I assume it will be Scarlett Snute Huk Naniwa Stephano
but could totally understand why Huk would be second
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
Right, because HuK managed to participate in the GSL 11 times and win major tournaments while LucifroN.....?
HuK has been around since the beginning and shown incredible results from 2010 - 2015. He's been consistent and has shown an amazing work ethic in Starcraft II that many foreigners have not shown, and his results clearly show he has been a Top 5 foreigner.
I feel like you are just trying to pick a fight with people.
I'm not looking to pick a fight with people hence why I won't post anymore here after this post. Let's agree to disagree? Maybe we can agree that there's no requirement (not even being somewhat decent at Starcraft like being in gm league) to sign up at this site and post whatever?
Anyway, good evening. Im going to bed.
No, let's not agree to disagree. Ranking Lucifron over Huk in a 'greatest foreigners' list is categorically and undeniably wrong.
Results? Huk by a landslide. Longevity? Huk by a landslide (from beta until now) Peak? Huk by a landslide. Fame? Huk by a landslide. Head to head? They've never faced each other so N/A.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
Right, because HuK managed to participate in the GSL 11 times and win major tournaments while LucifroN.....?
HuK has been around since the beginning and shown incredible results from 2010 - 2015. He's been consistent and has shown an amazing work ethic in Starcraft II that many foreigners have not shown, and his results clearly show he has been a Top 5 foreigner.
I feel like you are just trying to pick a fight with people.
I'm not looking to pick a fight with people hence why I won't post anymore here after this post. Let's agree to disagree? Maybe we can agree that there's no requirement (not even being somewhat decent at Starcraft like being in gm league) to sign up at this site and post whatever?
Anyway, good evening. Im going to bed.
No, let's not agree to disagree. Ranking Lucifron over Huk in a 'greatest foreigners' list is categorically and undeniably wrong.
Results? Huk by a landslide. Longevity? Huk by a landslide (from beta until now) Peak? Huk by a landslide. Fame? Huk by a landslide. Head to head? They've never faced each other so N/A.
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Clearly Jinro knows nothing about Starcraft
he said he felt he didn't belong on the list he's obviously delusional
On January 05 2016 07:15 Footler wrote: Does anyone else agree that Huk will be #2? Huk on paper just has so much more going for him in my opinion. The only thing Naniwa seems to have over him is simply this 'aura' of that he was one bad ass player that nearly everyone feared playing but at the end of the day his results don't speak as loudly as Huk's and certainly not as loudly as Stephano's. Also, I don't think we can entirely discount Huk's career after his era of dominance, he continues to be a relevant player in the foreign scene to this day and still manages to take down players many wouldn't expect him to.
I was thinking this as well the 8 GSL appearances kind of help his case. Everyone keeps pointing to earnings but MLG Orlando was 5k which some people get for getting into premier. All of the earnings debates are pretty weak based off of the years tournaments were held.
On January 05 2016 08:54 DonDomingo wrote: [quote] No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
Right, because HuK managed to participate in the GSL 11 times and win major tournaments while LucifroN.....?
HuK has been around since the beginning and shown incredible results from 2010 - 2015. He's been consistent and has shown an amazing work ethic in Starcraft II that many foreigners have not shown, and his results clearly show he has been a Top 5 foreigner.
I feel like you are just trying to pick a fight with people.
I'm not looking to pick a fight with people hence why I won't post anymore here after this post. Let's agree to disagree? Maybe we can agree that there's no requirement (not even being somewhat decent at Starcraft like being in gm league) to sign up at this site and post whatever?
Anyway, good evening. Im going to bed.
No, let's not agree to disagree. Ranking Lucifron over Huk in a 'greatest foreigners' list is categorically and undeniably wrong.
Results? Huk by a landslide. Longevity? Huk by a landslide (from beta until now) Peak? Huk by a landslide. Fame? Huk by a landslide. Head to head? They've never faced each other so N/A.
On January 05 2016 08:54 DonDomingo wrote:
On January 05 2016 07:54 Splynn wrote:
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Clearly Jinro knows nothing about Starcraft
he said he felt he didn't belong on the list he's obviously delusional
:D
But really, I meant more like if someone didn't include me I wouldn't consider it super strange.
On January 05 2016 09:06 The_Templar wrote: [quote] Hmmm... seeing how many people in this thread are doing just that, you might be wrong.
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone or offending people, but you might just be underestimating how many people here have no clue
This ranking is based on results, and no matter how good you might think LucifroN is, his results in tournaments are worse than HuK's by a landslide.
Silly me, thinking a thread called "The Greatest Foreigners of All Time" would be about who are the greatest foreigners of all time and not who has won most.
Not that I blame people for judging by results. If you don't understand the game very well, how can you be expected to be able to tell who's the better player? Much easier to judge by results.
Right, because HuK managed to participate in the GSL 11 times and win major tournaments while LucifroN.....?
HuK has been around since the beginning and shown incredible results from 2010 - 2015. He's been consistent and has shown an amazing work ethic in Starcraft II that many foreigners have not shown, and his results clearly show he has been a Top 5 foreigner.
I feel like you are just trying to pick a fight with people.
I'm not looking to pick a fight with people hence why I won't post anymore here after this post. Let's agree to disagree? Maybe we can agree that there's no requirement (not even being somewhat decent at Starcraft like being in gm league) to sign up at this site and post whatever?
Anyway, good evening. Im going to bed.
No, let's not agree to disagree. Ranking Lucifron over Huk in a 'greatest foreigners' list is categorically and undeniably wrong.
Results? Huk by a landslide. Longevity? Huk by a landslide (from beta until now) Peak? Huk by a landslide. Fame? Huk by a landslide. Head to head? They've never faced each other so N/A.
On January 05 2016 08:54 DonDomingo wrote:
On January 05 2016 07:54 Splynn wrote:
On January 05 2016 07:50 DonDomingo wrote: It's pretty obvious who remain:
LucifroN, Stephano, NaNiwa, Snute & Scarlett.
Question is in which order!
If that is true then Huk is not in the top 15... And that is just wrong. I don't think Lucifron makes the cut here. He was really good, but doesn't quite have the results.
No-one in their right mind who isn't trolling who knows even just a little about Starcrafrt would rate Huk over LucifroN.
Clearly Jinro knows nothing about Starcraft
he said he felt he didn't belong on the list he's obviously delusional
:D
But really, I meant more like if someone didn't include me I wouldn't consider it super strange.
It's only going to get harder from here on in comparing across eras. No idea how you're meant to compare an insane level of success in GSL (however brief) to anything achieved in the WCS world from 2015 onwards
I'd rate IdrA #3 in my list for being able to keep up and be a top foreigner in a game that he didn't even like. Being super good with 0 passion? Now that's impressive
On January 05 2016 18:20 DinosaurPoop wrote: I'd rate IdrA #3 in my list for being able to keep up and be a top foreigner in a game that he didn't even like. Being super good with 0 passion? Now that's impressive
By this logic, Genius is the greatest player of all time
On January 05 2016 04:25 nimdil wrote: It will be weird with Scarlett in top 5 without a single premier title to her name but all things considered there's no way around it.
I feel that nerchio and mana have more results to show than scarlet. They just didnt have the overhype going for them
They all have about the same level of results, but you're right about the hype thing. My only disagreement with the writers so far is that 9th is too low for Nerchio.
He was damaged by BLord infestor age too much IMO. On the other hand - I couldn't find a player who's up there and is worse than Nerchio. In theory Scarlett, but she was really good and we haven't seen the top 5 yet, maybe she's not there
#1 is Stephano, he was one of only a few foreigners ever to legitimately be touted as the very best player in the world - a moniker he probably deserved. Could wreck-face like no other foreigner, tearing through Korea's finest like a flamethrower through a toilet paper factory.
#2 should be Huk, IMO. Like Stephano, he was touted as the best in the world from time to time, he won tournaments and really was the best protoss in the world for a stretch (followed by the mighty MC). He has also never truly dropped off. At the end of HotS he was still one of the best 5-10 foreigners, just like he has been since the frickin' beta. One of the highest peaks coupled an incredibly high "trough".
#3 would then be Naniwa - I'd have him only a little behind Huk. IMO though, his peak was lower and he wasn't as consistent over as long a time. Which is not to say he wasn't consistently brilliant for a pretty long time - but even in those times he was sometimes outshone by Huk and Stephano.
#4 here I'd have Scarlett. Her play just looked like there was a Korean behind the mouse and keyboard, superb player and in terms of pure peak skill, the best foreigner ever.
#5 then must be Snute who is awesome, but I'd have him just behind the other four.
On January 05 2016 18:20 DinosaurPoop wrote: I'd rate IdrA #3 in my list for being able to keep up and be a top foreigner in a game that he didn't even like. Being super good with 0 passion? Now that's impressive
By this logic, Genius is the greatest player of all time
On January 05 2016 18:36 althaz wrote: #1 is Stephano, he was one of only a few foreigners ever to legitimately be touted as the very best player in the world - a moniker he probably deserved. Could wreck-face like no other foreigner, tearing through Korea's finest like a flamethrower through a toilet paper factory.
#2 should be Huk, IMO. Like Stephano, he was touted as the best in the world from time to time, he won tournaments and really was the best protoss in the world for a stretch (followed by the mighty MC). He has also never truly dropped off. At the end of HotS he was still one of the best 5-10 foreigners, just like he has been since the frickin' beta. One of the highest peaks coupled an incredibly high "trough".
#3 would then be Naniwa - I'd have him only a little behind Huk. IMO though, his peak was lower and he wasn't as consistent over as long a time. Which is not to say he wasn't consistently brilliant for a pretty long time - but even in those times he was sometimes outshone by Huk and Stephano.
#4 here I'd have Scarlett. Her play just looked like there was a Korean behind the mouse and keyboard, superb player and in terms of pure peak skill, the best foreigner ever.
#5 then must be Snute who is awesome, but I'd have him just behind the other four.
Naniwa dominated years 2011 and 2013(from foreigner view ) and Huk dominated 2010 and was a threat in 2011. Naniwa's peak was actually longer - 2 years, Huk's peak was a year and something(2010 and partially 2011).
The bigger threat of those 2 for a longer time was Naniwa. Though Huk can get #2 by his GSL tries.
I think that the top 3 will be great topic for a flame war once revealed
On January 05 2016 18:36 althaz wrote: #2 should be Huk, IMO...At the end of HotS he was still one of the best 5-10 foreigners, just like he has been since the frickin' beta. One of the highest peaks coupled an incredibly high "trough".
Not to detract from his first couple of years or so, but Ro.32 + 2 challenger exits in WCS 2015 would suggest not. It's difficult to suggest that he's been truly competitive since late 2012, but his longevity deserves some respect
#1 is Stephano, he was one of only a few foreigners ever to legitimately be touted as the very best player in the world - a moniker he probably deserved. Could wreck-face like no other foreigner, tearing through Korea's finest like a flamethrower through a toilet paper factory.
#2 should be Huk, IMO. Like Stephano, he was touted as the best in the world from time to time, he won tournaments and really was the best protoss in the world for a stretch (followed by the mighty MC). He has also never truly dropped off. At the end of HotS he was still one of the best 5-10 foreigners, just like he has been since the frickin' beta. One of the highest peaks coupled an incredibly high "trough".
I think you overrate the skillset these foreigners had. Stephano was never the best in the world, and Huk was probably never even in top10.
Stephano was the one guy the Koreans were afraid of. Not because he could defeat them, but because it would ruin the expectation that Korean players generally smashed foreigner face. He was the exception. He was one of them, and they feared him for that.
If The rest would be: Scarlett, Snute, Huk, Naniwa & Stephano (they all seem legit) where is the place for WhiteRa? This dude was ON FIRE during WOL. What About MarineLord after last NW3?
Jinro? Thorzain? IdrA? No idea honestly, but IdrA hates sc2 so I think maybe Thorzain? Jinro just hasn't competed in sooo long.
Vortix and Lucifron are doing well enogh in Heroes and the others are still active. I'm really curious .
Aaaah it is hard to predict :O
One can dream of Vortix or Lucifron. I always felt like they never reached their full potential, and they have such a huge raw talent.
I would not mind if it was Idra. That would be great for the NA scene and for the... entertainement overall
It would be indeed, but I just don't think it will happen.
I'm now 99% sure it's Thorzain after checking his twitter . I also think it's makes the most sense that Kaelaris would hear from Thorzain.
Edit: Kaelaris of course also has a lot of contact with Vortix and Lucifron through heroes, but I think they really like the game and are unlikely to quit.
On January 05 2016 22:40 cheekymonkey wrote: Stephano was the one guy the Koreans were afraid of. Not because he could defeat them, but because it would ruin the expectation that Korean players generally smashed foreigner face. He was the exception. He was one of them, and they feared him for that.
They respected and were just as afraid of Naniwa, especially during his GSL runs. The biggest question is if #1 is either Naniwa or Stephano at this point. Most people seem settled with 3-5 being Huk, Snute, and Scarlett.
On January 06 2016 02:04 pieroog wrote: If The rest would be: Scarlett, Snute, Huk, Naniwa & Stephano (they all seem legit) where is the place for WhiteRa? This dude was ON FIRE during WOL. What About MarineLord after last NW3?
MLord is good, but don't overjudge him based on 1 night. I expect him to be part of this discussion in a year, but not yet. White-Ra is probably just a bit short of top 15. I'd say (assuming, that Stephano, Naniwa, HuK, Snute and Scarlett are the top 5), that White-Ra, Xigua, TLO, Jim, Socke, Kas, Ret, Happy, Macseed and HasuObs are batteling for the rest of the top 20.
I don't think that you should read into Code S participation of foreigners too much as many of the seeds were given for free and the foreigners didn't actually qualify (Stephano was given a Code S seed, MaNa a Code A seed, I know Nerchio was offered a Code S seed too at one point, but it never got through his manager , Idr/dk about HuK or Naniwa)
marinelord skill is so good.. but i dont tihnk he will be around enough , to make it one of the best of all time.. although his achievement was one of the best for sure , he was planning to retire so there wont be much more tournaments to really judge..
I re-read Mvp's article for Greatest of all time, and It's probably the best SC2 related article I've ever read. I'd love for Naniwa or Stephano's (depending on who's first) to be half as good and really in dephts .
On January 06 2016 04:19 Ej_ wrote: I don't think that you should read into Code S participation of foreigners too much as many of the seeds were given for free and the foreigners didn't actually qualify (Stephano was given a Code S seed, MaNa a Code A seed, I know Nerchio was offered a Code S seed too at one point, but it never got through his manager , Idr/dk about HuK or Naniwa)
IdrA (and me) got it from points accrued during the first 3 GSLs (when GSL was 64 man events, since I only made it into the last GSL of 2010 I had to get top 8 minimum to get code S, IdrA had already secured it with his performances in GSL 1 and 2I think).
Huk got an invite for Code A but made it into code S through there.
I actually got an invite for code A too after I fell out, but I turned it down because I didn't think I deserved it as someone who'd lived there so long by then.
On January 06 2016 16:38 BronzeKnee wrote: Why does part 2 come before part 1? I'm relatively sure the #1 is before the #2 when counting up in the number line...
We had part 1 two weeks ago with #11- #15 greatest.
On January 06 2016 16:38 BronzeKnee wrote: Why does part 2 come before part 1? I'm relatively sure the #1 is before the #2 when counting up in the number line...
We had part 1 two weeks ago with #11- #15 greatest.
On January 06 2016 16:38 BronzeKnee wrote: Why does part 2 come before part 1? I'm relatively sure the #1 is before the #2 when counting up in the number line...
We had part 1 two weeks ago with #11- #15 greatest.
It's even linked in the article
I don't actually read these articles, I click thru the rankings then rage when I disagree with them.
If TL ever dumps their rankings like Playboy dumped their nudes, then people like me would have absolutely no reason to open threads like this.
On January 06 2016 16:38 BronzeKnee wrote: Why does part 2 come before part 1? I'm relatively sure the #1 is before the #2 when counting up in the number line...
We had part 1 two weeks ago with #11- #15 greatest.
It's even linked in the article
I don't actually read these articles, I click thru the rankings then rage when I disagree with them.
If TL ever dumps their rankings like Playboy dumped their nudes, then people like me would have absolutely no reason to open threads like this.
We also need Greatest Rivalries of SC2 part 2: Nerchio vs MaNa because this rank has added some fuel to the fire. I think it's even a better story than NaNi-Thorzain because it's much closer, much longer and still going strong.
On January 07 2016 02:44 stardog wrote: We also need Greatest Rivalries of SC2 part 2: Nerchio vs MaNa because this rank has added some fuel to the fire. I think it's even a better story than NaNi-Thorzain because it's much closer, much longer and still going strong.
It would be part 4 since we had life/dream and life/taeja.
#5 Showtime (for kicking out Mvp) #4 Major (the prophet) #3 Fenix (for joining IM by making nothing remarkable) #2 Tod (because casting is way cooler than playing)
On January 07 2016 02:44 stardog wrote: We also need Greatest Rivalries of SC2 part 2: Nerchio vs MaNa because this rank has added some fuel to the fire. I think it's even a better story than NaNi-Thorzain because it's much closer, much longer and still going strong.
It would be part 4 since we had life/dream and life/taeja.
On January 07 2016 02:44 stardog wrote: We also need Greatest Rivalries of SC2 part 2: Nerchio vs MaNa because this rank has added some fuel to the fire. I think it's even a better story than NaNi-Thorzain because it's much closer, much longer and still going strong.
On January 07 2016 02:44 stardog wrote: We also need Greatest Rivalries of SC2 part 2: Nerchio vs MaNa because this rank has added some fuel to the fire. I think it's even a better story than NaNi-Thorzain because it's much closer, much longer and still going strong.
On January 06 2016 16:38 BronzeKnee wrote: Why does part 2 come before part 1? I'm relatively sure the #1 is before the #2 when counting up in the number line...
We had part 1 two weeks ago with #11- #15 greatest.
It's even linked in the article
I don't actually read these articles, I click thru the rankings then rage when I disagree with them.
If TL ever dumps their rankings like Playboy dumped their nudes, then people like me would have absolutely no reason to open threads like this.
I loved it when we had power ranks more often. I just remember raging so hard after those fools said Innovation was so good and going to crush Maru, then Maru tore him a new one in the GSL semi-finals, totally swept him and made him look terrible (and naturally, I said Maru would win because I'm awesome, or because I'm biased against the elephants) and then Innovation was #1 in the power rank and Maru below him only a few days after Maru's GSL finals win.
Still doesn't make any sense to me. I guess we all have our biases.
On January 06 2016 16:38 BronzeKnee wrote: Why does part 2 come before part 1? I'm relatively sure the #1 is before the #2 when counting up in the number line...
We had part 1 two weeks ago with #11- #15 greatest.
It's even linked in the article
I don't actually read these articles, I click thru the rankings then rage when I disagree with them.
If TL ever dumps their rankings like Playboy dumped their nudes, then people like me would have absolutely no reason to open threads like this.
On January 07 2016 14:09 BronzeKnee wrote: I loved it when we had power ranks more often. I just remember raging so hard after those fools said Innovation was so good and going to crush Maru, then Maru tore him a new one in the GSL semi-finals, totally swept him and made him look terrible (and naturally, I said Maru would win because I'm awesome, or because I'm biased against the elephants) and then Innovation was #1 in the power rank and Maru below him only a few days after Maru's GSL finals win.
Still doesn't make any sense to me. I guess we all have our biases.
On January 06 2016 16:38 BronzeKnee wrote: Why does part 2 come before part 1? I'm relatively sure the #1 is before the #2 when counting up in the number line...
We had part 1 two weeks ago with #11- #15 greatest.
It's even linked in the article
I don't actually read these articles, I click thru the rankings then rage when I disagree with them.
If TL ever dumps their rankings like Playboy dumped their nudes, then people like me would have absolutely no reason to open threads like this.
Carry on.
You'll fit in well on the internet.
I try.
Maru > Innovation is usually correct but your logic also leads to ranking Seed above MC a year earlier.
This guy missed some important wins by Idra. He also won an IPL in 2001, making him the only foreigner to win an MLG, IEM, and IPL. He should be top 5.
On January 11 2016 20:05 sfbaydave wrote: This guy missed some important wins by Idra. He also won an IPL in 2001, making him the only foreigner to win an MLG, IEM, and IPL. He should be top 5.
Wow impressive he was the best american player, make him top 1 already
well, Avilo deserves to be #2 ... and he is better than Avilo.. so i don't know how much more proof you need more seriously, i don't think Idra deserves to be in the top 5... he is placed about where he should be on this list.
also, the prize pool for the 1st ever proof-of-concept IPL event was only $5000 and the entire thing from start to finish was online. so grouping that 1st IPL "event" in with the other IPLs held in Las Vegas and then saying "Idra won an IPL" is a big, big stretch.
"Idra's achievements were slightly behind MaNa in the grand scheme of things, like Nerchio. However a majority of Idra's wins came during the early phases of WoL when Zerg was weak."
On January 11 2016 23:47 Fullmetal_Bawie wrote: "Idra's achievements were slightly behind MaNa in the grand scheme of things, like Nerchio. However a majority of Idra's wins came during the early phases of WoL when Zerg was weak."
On January 11 2016 23:51 RvB wrote: BL infestor was in the end of WoL. Zerg was weak at the start lf WoL which is why Fruitdealers GSL win is considered so impressive.
I still think it was just the biggest throw by intotherainbow and also Ultralisks had that bug where they would splash incredibly, depending on how big the target it was hitting was. Definitely remember watching an Ultralisk wipe a mineral line, due to this bug... Still nonetheless he probably deserved to win.
Edit: nvm I must've been thinking about the semi finals, in the finals Fruitdealer actually just toys with him!
On January 13 2016 01:24 Nisticism wrote: I think the list is wrong but has some of the right players.
My list would be:
1. Stephano 2. Naniwa 3. Snute 4. Nerchio 5. Huk 6. Mana 7. Sen 8. Scarlett 9. Thorzain 10. Vortix/Lucifron.
Idra might be 11. He would be higher if we were counting more than just the sc2 career.
In that case, Grubby, ToD and Lucifron are easily Top3. All other former wc3 (except HoT) are not worth to count their wc3 performance in that ranking.
@Dingodile Firstly, that's why I didn't include Idra, secondly, starcraft was a lot more similar to starcraft 2 than warcraft 3 was to sc2. Seems obvious enough to me why I would mention Idra's broodwar career and not Grubby's and other's WC3 careers.
EPT![[image loading]](https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2852/9489658970_2ccd3de883_c.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/stuchiu/FGOAT/nerchio_2.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/stuchiu/FGOAT/MANA.gif)
![[image loading]](http://orig14.deviantart.net/34af/f/2011/272/5/f/idra_by_zemotion-d4ba7bm.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/lichter/others/senwins.jpg)
But I still think she should be in the top 5.
The old Idra-originating flames would burn anew.
