TvZ is doable but we can't really win TvP. I think Terrans can't make it through because of TvP. As a whole, I don't think Terran is a good race in SC2.
What do you think needs to be done in order for Terrans to become stronger?
I think we need an adept nerf. There are so many scenarios where we can't block even though we know it's coming. Either that or make cyclones stronger. Please revive Terran somehow.
I want to avoid Protoss if possible. Based on the current balance, I feel like I would want to face a Zerg. If possible, I'm hoping Protoss players won't come near me (laughs).
I really like the adept. I can win almost all my games if I utilize adepts in PvT so I can see why Terrans feel that adepts are OP. If Blizzard does end up nerfing the adept, then I hope they only do a small one since PvT mid-game will become stronger for Terrans otherwise. Because the thing is, a lot of nerfs will cause problems for PvT, but it will also make things really difficult for PvZ.
I don't think this matchup is really balanced. I really dislike PvZ. I dislike it so much that I just sigh while being unable to even properly explain why.
How do you feel about the racial balance for LotV?
I feel that the balance right now is headed towards the SC:BW path. It's difficult for Terran to win against Protoss and it's difficult for Protoss to win against Zerg. From a Protoss' perspective, ravages are OP and lurkers are OP. Of course, for PvT, adepts are OP as well (laughs). Personally, I feel that a patch needs to occur. But then again, believing in the players and leaving things alone is also another way to go.
Who do you want to avoid for the Ro16?
Rather than say there's a player I want to avoid, I'd rather just avoid a certain race. LotV is so similar to SC:BW balance-wise that I think it will be difficult to face a Zerg. If possible, I would hope to face a Terran. Maru is 50/50 (laughs).
Zerg is too weak. So many people have been saying that Zerg is strong so people are thinking this. But if you look at ladder, there's only one Zerg in the top ten. Protoss and Terran are both experimenting a lot so it's become difficult for Zergs. I'm actually frustrated about this notion that Zerg is really strong. Personally, I have difficulties when facing Terran and I feel that the balance is going down the SC:BW way.
I think it is interesting that they say the game is 'going down a bw path' T>Z>P>T confirmed? Not entirely sure this is the case tbh, but maybe the meta in korea really is like that in general
balance right now is headed towards the SC:BW path
is good right? I mean, I have had to hear that it should go that way for 5 years, so... It's good right? /sarcasm
But really, It's interesting to see that each race's player has a different opinion about how the balance is at the moment, would have liked to see more opinions though.
On December 19 2015 09:44 sh0ck wrote: LOL at "zerg is too weak" ...and from Solar no less
I think LotV Z is rather easy than strong. Like with roach/ravager you don't need to have stellar control or be a tactical genius to make it work but the potential is quite limited, contrary to adepts (in harassement) and tankivacs for exemple.
On December 19 2015 09:44 sh0ck wrote: LOL at "zerg is too weak" ...and from Solar no less
I think LotV Z is rather easy than strong. Like with roach/ravager you don't need to have stellar control or be a tactical genius to make it work but the potential is quite limited, contrary to adepts (in harassement) and tankivacs for exemple.
That's not true you need to have a quite good drop defence against good players and you also need to have a decent army control because of tanks and liberators. And the more bases you get the harded it gets to defend them. Ling /Bane/Muta in HotS was way easier to play than Roach/Ravager/Infestor nowdays.
On December 19 2015 09:44 vult wrote: Terrans: Terran is too weak. Protosses: Protoss can't win vs. Zerg. Zergs: Zerg too weak.
Gotta love progamers. :D
Well considering Terran's performance against both races. Along with Protoss' performance vs Zerg. And the fact that Solar is complaining while having won two tournaments in LOTV already... It's pretty safe to assume that the general consensus is that Zerg is strong, Terran is weak and that Zerg players are scared of the incoming nerfs.
On December 19 2015 09:44 vult wrote: Terrans: Terran is too weak. Protosses: Protoss can't win vs. Zerg. Zergs: Zerg too weak.
Gotta love progamers. :D
Well considering Terran's performance against both races. Along with Protoss' performance vs Zerg. And the fact that Solar is complaining while having won two tournaments in LOTV already... It's pretty safe to assume that the general consensus is that Zerg is strong, Terran is weak and that Zerg players are scared of the incoming nerfs.
He won two tournaments? What's there to complain about the micro requirement differences for Terran and Zerg are pretty transparent.
Not only the ladder, but only the top 10... As I expected terrans struggled more vs Protoss, being murdered by them in GSL Pre-Season. TvZ doable because you can kill them in early/mid on most maps and turtle + multidrop on other maps?
And yeah the Zerg has it easier with roach ravager on seras ruins cross pos for example, tankivac saves the day tho.
On December 19 2015 09:44 vult wrote: Terrans: Terran is too weak. Protosses: Protoss can't win vs. Zerg. Zergs: Zerg too weak.
Gotta love progamers. :D
Well considering Terran's performance against both races. Along with Protoss' performance vs Zerg. And the fact that Solar is complaining while having won two tournaments in LOTV already... It's pretty safe to assume that the general consensus is that Zerg is strong, Terran is weak and that Zerg players are scared of the incoming nerfs.
Solar won one big tournament and he didn't really won it as much as Parting threw it. So it's a pretty misleading thing to say. The only thing safe to assume is that T is pretty weak vs P and nothing more. Terrans did whine about ultras as if you can't beat them but now many starting to learn how to play with ghosts and starting to do quite well against that. It's like the medivacboost at the start of HotS. Protoss did whine that it's way to strong and what happen than? Oh they learned how to fucking play against it.
On December 19 2015 09:44 vult wrote: Terrans: Terran is too weak. Protosses: Protoss can't win vs. Zerg. Zergs: Zerg too weak.
Gotta love progamers. :D
Well considering Terran's performance against both races. Along with Protoss' performance vs Zerg. And the fact that Solar is complaining while having won two tournaments in LOTV already... It's pretty safe to assume that the general consensus is that Zerg is strong, Terran is weak and that Zerg players are scared of the incoming nerfs.
Solar won one big tournament and he didn't really won it as much as Parting threw it. So it's a pretty misleading thing to say. The only thing safe to assume is that T is pretty weak vs P and nothing more. Terrans did whine about ultras as if you can't beat them but now many starting to learn how to play with ghosts and starting to do quite well against that. It's like the medivacboost at the start of HotS. Protoss did whine that it's way to strong and what happen than? Oh they learned how to fucking play against it.
I'm sure Terrans will learn to play against Adepts and PO too.
I can agree that Terran might have problems with Adepts in earlygame. I think making Adepts 3-shot workers or remove 10 HP is good, then maybe compensate it with a stronger attack speed upgrade.
On December 19 2015 12:53 TheoMikkelsen wrote: I can agree that Terran might have problems with Adepts in earlygame. I think making Adepts 3-shot workers or remove 10 HP is good, then maybe compensate it with a stronger attack speed upgrade.
I'd say just remove the shade and buff its shield slightly... Shade is whats causing the real problem due to you needing double the size of army to combat harass as you need to deal with it beign on both of mineral line.
On December 19 2015 10:50 GGzerG wrote: Going down the SC BW Path sounds good to me.
pretty sure he means in regard to T>Z>P>T dynamic thats going on right now.
I wonder if that is also to do with x unit is op but I have y unit in my race that is op Because so many players keep mentioning bw balance, I think this type of balance is even what they wanted
On December 19 2015 10:50 GGzerG wrote: Going down the SC BW Path sounds good to me.
pretty sure he means in regard to T>Z>P>T dynamic thats going on right now.
I wonder if that is also to do with x unit is op but I have y unit in my race that is op Because so many players keep mentioning bw balance, I think this type of balance is even what they wanted
Totally agree and I think that's the direction the balance should go instead of nerfing strong units, keep them so they can be the signature of race and balance around weak units/map etc.
Apart from adeptes being too strong, what army protoss really has if it plays without abusing adepts against bio liberator? Personally, I don't know how to abuse adepts in PvT and I don't intend to learn as it doesnt suit my playstyle and interest in SC. On the other hand, I feel like terrible terrans with terrible micro can just destroy my army because protoss doesn't have a solid endgame composition vs liberators ( of course I might be wrong, but from what I watched, pros get ahead with adept abuse and economy of lotv for protoss, not winning fights 200 vs 200 ).
On December 19 2015 12:53 TheoMikkelsen wrote: I can agree that Terran might have problems with Adepts in earlygame. I think making Adepts 3-shot workers or remove 10 HP is good, then maybe compensate it with a stronger attack speed upgrade.
I'd say just remove the shade and buff its shield slightly... Shade is whats causing the real problem due to you needing double the size of army to combat harass as you need to deal with it beign on both of mineral line.
wtf? remove shade? even as a terran I would stay that is foolish thing to take away. shade is an awesome mechanic, dont remove it.
Solar trolling worst than shellshock there haha. I have not seen enough TvP high level to say about that, TvZ seems as volatile as before but i agree it looks winnable for T.
As usual though Terran is also "weak" at the start of the expansion due to it takes Terrans longer to adapt to the new game, give it a couple more months and the Terrans will be back after figuring out some timings or new meta/comps.
On December 19 2015 12:53 TheoMikkelsen wrote: I can agree that Terran might have problems with Adepts in earlygame. I think making Adepts 3-shot workers or remove 10 HP is good, then maybe compensate it with a stronger attack speed upgrade.
I'd say just remove the shade and buff its shield slightly... Shade is whats causing the real problem due to you needing double the size of army to combat harass as you need to deal with it beign on both of mineral line.
wtf? remove shade? even as a terran I would stay that is foolish thing to take away. shade is an awesome mechanic, dont remove it.
Agree. Shade has its finesse and iam liking it. Props for blizzard tbh to implement this.
On December 19 2015 12:53 TheoMikkelsen wrote: I can agree that Terran might have problems with Adepts in earlygame. I think making Adepts 3-shot workers or remove 10 HP is good, then maybe compensate it with a stronger attack speed upgrade.
I'd say just remove the shade and buff its shield slightly... Shade is whats causing the real problem due to you needing double the size of army to combat harass as you need to deal with it beign on both of mineral line.
wtf? remove shade? even as a terran I would stay that is foolish thing to take away. shade is an awesome mechanic, dont remove it.
Agree. Shade has its finesse and iam liking it. Props for blizzard tbh to implement this.
Shade is a large part of why mass adept is broken at the moment.
On December 19 2015 19:51 Pandemona wrote: Solar trolling worst than shellshock there haha. I have not seen enough TvP high level to say about that, TvZ seems as volatile as before but i agree it looks winnable for T.
As usual though Terran is also "weak" at the start of the expansion due to it takes Terrans longer to adapt to the new game, give it a couple more months and the Terrans will be back after figuring out some timings or new meta/comps.
Well, it is hard to "figure something out" when in PvT when you are extremly limited in possible build order to not straight up die to atleast 5-10 different all ins / timings. Sure there might be room to do some testing, but as fast as you start to do something "not ordinary" as terran, you make yourself vurnearble to shit loads of Protoss attacks/harasses.
You really cant try "hey lets try a fast third and upgrades" or "lets try Raven-rush" or "tank drop". You need your 6 marines + Turrets. You need to Cyclone to stand a chance vs the Warp Prism. You need to wall your main to not die to Adepts instantly. You also need to be aware that makes you sensitive for Pylon all ins (MC vs Polt G2).
And the list goes on and on and on for what Terran needs to do.
Protoss on the other hand can just pick any build he chooses from and it is all up the Terran player to defend it or die. When Terran fails defending, we hear "you should had guessed different". Kind of.
I also find the Pylon Overcharge making it extremly hard to scout (Im playing in Master League). TvP for me has become much of a guessing game since the Reaper has extremly hard time keeping himself alive vs PylonCharge and Adepts.
balance right now is headed towards the SC:BW path
is good right? I mean, I have had to hear that it should go that way for 5 years, so... It's good right? /sarcasm
But really, It's interesting to see that each race's player has a different opinion about how the balance is at the moment, would have liked to see more opinions though.
Hehe, can't deny that thought came to me as well.
It's still hard to know how balanced the game is atm (look at all the Terrans advancing at HSC) but a case can be made for certain units that they're must builds which can be problematic in some cases. Adepts certainly come to mind in that regard.
On December 19 2015 09:44 vult wrote: Terrans: Terran is too weak. Protosses: Protoss can't win vs. Zerg. Zergs: Zerg too weak.
Gotta love progamers. :D
Well considering Terran's performance against both races. Along with Protoss' performance vs Zerg. And the fact that Solar is complaining while having won two tournaments in LOTV already... It's pretty safe to assume that the general consensus is that Zerg is strong, Terran is weak and that Zerg players are scared of the incoming nerfs.
additionally,parting was hungover and hasnt played nearly as much LotV as solar. at the end of hots PartinG was not close to Solars level. The fact that it was as close as it was, is absolutely stupid yet you have protosses bitching because they can no longer 7gate into autogg
On December 19 2015 22:21 Ctesias wrote: So progamers are just as biased as the viewers. Nothing new there.
2 out of 3 Protosses admitted to thinking that P>T, it is going somewhere.
actually it's incredible. When TvP was okish Rain was saying T was worse than blord/infestor. Admitting something in your race is broken often means there is a real problem (and if we nerf adepts we'll probably see the problem with liberators)
Great to see Solar speaking the truth. I have big respect for people that actually tell how it is. Zerg clearly was hurt by the larvae nerf and it is hard to defend mass adept/reaper.
Game got much faster. But overlord same speed. So overlord scout is very late. Drone and Ling no scout cause wall-in and strong early P/T units. Difficult time for Zerg.
Solar is an amazing player and I have to agree that Partin was very very very weak in finals and threw the game. If Parting was as good as Solar then Parting would've won tournament.
I hope David Kim makes smart decision and not listen to the wrong people.
I play zerg ladder. 85% win rate in ZvZ 40% win rate in ZvP 34% win rate in ZvT
Sometimes you play, and grandmaster opponent on korea strong. They know push timings when they hurt most. From playing on korea ladder GM I can tell you what happens in next time. Protoss will start building more phoenix. Zerg has to counter with Hydras then Protoss build Adepts with upgrade and win with timing push before Lurker finishes because Lurker den very late. It will come to other regions soon aswell. Believe my word
On December 19 2015 23:00 [PkF] Wire wrote: If adepts are broken, nerf them.
Good idea. I think life of adepts a little bit too high. Or damage against non-light units.
It is hard from my perspective. Are adepts good in PvT? If adept strong in PvT and PvZ then they need nerf very fast or integrity of starcraft 2 is in danger.
On December 19 2015 23:00 [PkF] Wire wrote: If adepts are broken, nerf them.
Good idea. I think life of adepts a little bit too high. Or damage against non-light units.
It is hard from my perspective. Are adepts good in PvT? If adept strong in PvT and PvZ then they need nerf very fast or integrity of starcraft 2 is in danger.
Adepts are too good early game but quite ok later on. A slight adept nerf aimed at PvT + some T buff would be good.
On December 19 2015 23:00 [PkF] Wire wrote: If adepts are broken, nerf them.
Good idea. I think life of adepts a little bit too high. Or damage against non-light units.
It is hard from my perspective. Are adepts good in PvT? If adept strong in PvT and PvZ then they need nerf very fast or integrity of starcraft 2 is in danger.
Adepts are too good early game but quite ok later on. A slight adept nerf aimed at PvT + some T buff would be good.
Augment shade cooldown would reduce the abuse imo.
On December 19 2015 23:00 [PkF] Wire wrote: If adepts are broken, nerf them.
Good idea. I think life of adepts a little bit too high. Or damage against non-light units.
It is hard from my perspective. Are adepts good in PvT? If adept strong in PvT and PvZ then they need nerf very fast or integrity of starcraft 2 is in danger.
Adepts are too good early game but quite ok later on. A slight adept nerf aimed at PvT + some T buff would be good.
Augment shade cooldown would reduce the abuse imo.
Definitely yeah. Far too easy to swing between harass points right now.
people who say that zerg is too strong, and saying things like solar won dh, how can zerg be weak?
did you even see the games vs parting?
solar won 2 macro games where parting let solar make a spire and save up for a big wave of mutas without scouting it whatsoever. the games where parting acutally scouted the spire he looked near to unbeatable. the other two map wins for solar where games where parting decided to cheese and even then made big mistakes.
solar didn't win because of zerg, he won because parting didn't scout properly and for some reason decided to allin.
On December 19 2015 23:39 johax wrote: people who say that zerg is too strong, and saying things like solar won dh, how can zerg be weak?
did you even see the games vs parting?
solar won 2 macro games where parting let solar make a spire and save up for a big wave of mutas without scouting it whatsoever. the games where parting acutally scouted the spire he looked near to unbeatable. the other two map wins for solar where games where parting decided to cheese and even then made big mistakes.
solar didn't win because of zerg, he won because parting didn't scout properly and for some reason decided to allin.
Good post from sweden. I quote because truth needs to be the dominant factor in starcraft and not bias.
On December 19 2015 23:39 johax wrote: people who say that zerg is too strong, and saying things like solar won dh, how can zerg be weak?
did you even see the games vs parting?
solar won 2 macro games where parting let solar make a spire and save up for a big wave of mutas without scouting it whatsoever. the games where parting acutally scouted the spire he looked near to unbeatable. the other two map wins for solar where games where parting decided to cheese and even then made big mistakes.
solar didn't win because of zerg, he won because parting didn't scout properly and for some reason decided to allin.
Good post from sweden. I quote because truth needs to be the dominant factor in starcraft and not bias.
Keep on the good posts
A zerg says that zerg isn't OP. Another zerg comes along and says that it is correct, and that we should avoid bias. As a zerg, listen to yourself cerebrate! :D
We are all biased. Ok that out of the way, good.
They all seem to agree with each other, right? At least after you subtract a bit of above mentioned bias from everyone.
Z >> P >>> T > Z
This can actually cause Zergs to come out on top, as the tosses kick out all the terrans through the strongest imbalance, and the zergs can rein over the remaining tosses and zergs. I actually made a mathematical model explaining that in a BW context many (8!) years ago, although at that point it was Z > P that was the strongest imbalance which caused T to come out on top. The model. That would fit with how T are ok with TvZ but complain about TvP, P are ok with PvT (or even admit P is favoured!), but complain about PvZ, and finally says everything is fine, but ZvT is too hard.
So yeah, then the solution would be to "fix" TvP, together with a matching nerf to Z to dampen the Z >> P a bit, but without letting the T > Z go out of control. Lurkers maybe?
On December 19 2015 23:39 johax wrote: people who say that zerg is too strong, and saying things like solar won dh, how can zerg be weak?
did you even see the games vs parting?
solar won 2 macro games where parting let solar make a spire and save up for a big wave of mutas without scouting it whatsoever. the games where parting acutally scouted the spire he looked near to unbeatable. the other two map wins for solar where games where parting decided to cheese and even then made big mistakes.
solar didn't win because of zerg, he won because parting didn't scout properly and for some reason decided to allin.
Good post from sweden. I quote because truth needs to be the dominant factor in starcraft and not bias.
Keep on the good posts
A zerg says that zerg isn't OP. Another zerg comes along and says that it is correct, and that we should avoid bias. As a zerg, listen to yourself cerebrate! :D
We are all biased. Ok that out of the way, good.
They all seem to agree with each other, right? At least after you subtract a bit of above mentioned bias from everyone.
Z >> P >>> T > Z
This can actually cause Zergs to come out on top, as the tosses kick out all the terrans through the strongest imbalance, and the zergs can rein over the remaining tosses and zergs. I actually made a mathematical model explaining that in a BW context many (8!) years ago, although at that point it was Z > P that was the strongest imbalance which caused T to come out on top. The model. That would fit with how T are ok with TvZ but complain about TvP, P are ok with PvT (or even admit P is favoured!), but complain about PvZ, and finally says everything is fine, but ZvT is too hard.
So yeah, then the solution would be to "fix" TvP, together with a matching nerf to Z to dampen the Z >> P a bit, but without letting the T > Z go out of control. Lurkers maybe?
It is good post, but sorry Solar is pro gamer who many experience and knows good.
Try play zerg. you need much apm for it to deflect attacks. very hard ^^
it is frustrating to defend reaper, liberator, adept, warp prism, oracle, medivac marines, medivac tanks, hellions, hellbats, dark templars.
On December 19 2015 23:39 johax wrote: people who say that zerg is too strong, and saying things like solar won dh, how can zerg be weak?
did you even see the games vs parting?
solar won 2 macro games where parting let solar make a spire and save up for a big wave of mutas without scouting it whatsoever. the games where parting acutally scouted the spire he looked near to unbeatable. the other two map wins for solar where games where parting decided to cheese and even then made big mistakes.
solar didn't win because of zerg, he won because parting didn't scout properly and for some reason decided to allin.
Good post from sweden. I quote because truth needs to be the dominant factor in starcraft and not bias.
Keep on the good posts
A zerg says that zerg isn't OP. Another zerg comes along and says that it is correct, and that we should avoid bias. As a zerg, listen to yourself cerebrate! :D
We are all biased. Ok that out of the way, good.
They all seem to agree with each other, right? At least after you subtract a bit of above mentioned bias from everyone.
Z >> P >>> T > Z
This can actually cause Zergs to come out on top, as the tosses kick out all the terrans through the strongest imbalance, and the zergs can rein over the remaining tosses and zergs. I actually made a mathematical model explaining that in a BW context many (8!) years ago, although at that point it was Z > P that was the strongest imbalance which caused T to come out on top. The model. That would fit with how T are ok with TvZ but complain about TvP, P are ok with PvT (or even admit P is favoured!), but complain about PvZ, and finally says everything is fine, but ZvT is too hard.
So yeah, then the solution would be to "fix" TvP, together with a matching nerf to Z to dampen the Z >> P a bit, but without letting the T > Z go out of control. Lurkers maybe?
It is good post, but sorry Solar is pro gamer who many experience and knows good.
Try play zerg. you need much apm for it to deflect attacks. very hard ^^
it is frustrating to defend reaper, liberator, adept, warp prism, oracle, medivac marines, medivac tanks, hellions, hellbats, dark templars.
Zerg has no harass. I want to harass enemy too
As much as I respect how good Solar is and how experienced he is, when he says "Zerg is too weak" as a general statement he's pretty much outright lying.
On December 19 2015 23:39 johax wrote: people who say that zerg is too strong, and saying things like solar won dh, how can zerg be weak?
did you even see the games vs parting?
solar won 2 macro games where parting let solar make a spire and save up for a big wave of mutas without scouting it whatsoever. the games where parting acutally scouted the spire he looked near to unbeatable. the other two map wins for solar where games where parting decided to cheese and even then made big mistakes.
solar didn't win because of zerg, he won because parting didn't scout properly and for some reason decided to allin.
Good post from sweden. I quote because truth needs to be the dominant factor in starcraft and not bias.
Keep on the good posts
A zerg says that zerg isn't OP. Another zerg comes along and says that it is correct, and that we should avoid bias. As a zerg, listen to yourself cerebrate! :D
We are all biased. Ok that out of the way, good.
They all seem to agree with each other, right? At least after you subtract a bit of above mentioned bias from everyone.
Z >> P >>> T > Z
This can actually cause Zergs to come out on top, as the tosses kick out all the terrans through the strongest imbalance, and the zergs can rein over the remaining tosses and zergs. I actually made a mathematical model explaining that in a BW context many (8!) years ago, although at that point it was Z > P that was the strongest imbalance which caused T to come out on top. The model. That would fit with how T are ok with TvZ but complain about TvP, P are ok with PvT (or even admit P is favoured!), but complain about PvZ, and finally says everything is fine, but ZvT is too hard.
So yeah, then the solution would be to "fix" TvP, together with a matching nerf to Z to dampen the Z >> P a bit, but without letting the T > Z go out of control. Lurkers maybe?
It is good post, but sorry Solar is pro gamer who many experience and knows good.
Try play zerg. you need much apm for it to deflect attacks. very hard ^^
it is frustrating to defend reaper, liberator, adept, warp prism, oracle, medivac marines, medivac tanks, hellions, hellbats, dark templars.
Zerg has no harass. I want to harass enemy too
As much as I respect how good Solar is and how experienced he is, when he says "Zerg is too weak" as a general statement he's pretty much outright lying.
On December 19 2015 23:39 johax wrote: people who say that zerg is too strong, and saying things like solar won dh, how can zerg be weak?
did you even see the games vs parting?
solar won 2 macro games where parting let solar make a spire and save up for a big wave of mutas without scouting it whatsoever. the games where parting acutally scouted the spire he looked near to unbeatable. the other two map wins for solar where games where parting decided to cheese and even then made big mistakes.
solar didn't win because of zerg, he won because parting didn't scout properly and for some reason decided to allin.
Good post from sweden. I quote because truth needs to be the dominant factor in starcraft and not bias.
Keep on the good posts
A zerg says that zerg isn't OP. Another zerg comes along and says that it is correct, and that we should avoid bias. As a zerg, listen to yourself cerebrate! :D
We are all biased. Ok that out of the way, good.
They all seem to agree with each other, right? At least after you subtract a bit of above mentioned bias from everyone.
Z >> P >>> T > Z
This can actually cause Zergs to come out on top, as the tosses kick out all the terrans through the strongest imbalance, and the zergs can rein over the remaining tosses and zergs. I actually made a mathematical model explaining that in a BW context many (8!) years ago, although at that point it was Z > P that was the strongest imbalance which caused T to come out on top. The model. That would fit with how T are ok with TvZ but complain about TvP, P are ok with PvT (or even admit P is favoured!), but complain about PvZ, and finally says everything is fine, but ZvT is too hard.
So yeah, then the solution would be to "fix" TvP, together with a matching nerf to Z to dampen the Z >> P a bit, but without letting the T > Z go out of control. Lurkers maybe?
It is good post, but sorry Solar is pro gamer who many experience and knows good.
Try play zerg. you need much apm for it to deflect attacks. very hard ^^
it is frustrating to defend reaper, liberator, adept, warp prism, oracle, medivac marines, medivac tanks, hellions, hellbats, dark templars.
Zerg has no harass. I want to harass enemy too
As much as I respect how good Solar is and how experienced he is, when he says "Zerg is too weak" as a general statement he's pretty much outright lying.
but Solar is progamer
So are the other players in the interview who state zerg isnt weak.
On December 19 2015 23:39 johax wrote: people who say that zerg is too strong, and saying things like solar won dh, how can zerg be weak?
did you even see the games vs parting?
solar won 2 macro games where parting let solar make a spire and save up for a big wave of mutas without scouting it whatsoever. the games where parting acutally scouted the spire he looked near to unbeatable. the other two map wins for solar where games where parting decided to cheese and even then made big mistakes.
solar didn't win because of zerg, he won because parting didn't scout properly and for some reason decided to allin.
Good post from sweden. I quote because truth needs to be the dominant factor in starcraft and not bias.
Keep on the good posts
A zerg says that zerg isn't OP. Another zerg comes along and says that it is correct, and that we should avoid bias. As a zerg, listen to yourself cerebrate! :D
We are all biased. Ok that out of the way, good.
They all seem to agree with each other, right? At least after you subtract a bit of above mentioned bias from everyone.
Z >> P >>> T > Z
This can actually cause Zergs to come out on top, as the tosses kick out all the terrans through the strongest imbalance, and the zergs can rein over the remaining tosses and zergs. I actually made a mathematical model explaining that in a BW context many (8!) years ago, although at that point it was Z > P that was the strongest imbalance which caused T to come out on top. The model. That would fit with how T are ok with TvZ but complain about TvP, P are ok with PvT (or even admit P is favoured!), but complain about PvZ, and finally says everything is fine, but ZvT is too hard.
So yeah, then the solution would be to "fix" TvP, together with a matching nerf to Z to dampen the Z >> P a bit, but without letting the T > Z go out of control. Lurkers maybe?
It is good post, but sorry Solar is pro gamer who many experience and knows good.
Try play zerg. you need much apm for it to deflect attacks. very hard ^^
it is frustrating to defend reaper, liberator, adept, warp prism, oracle, medivac marines, medivac tanks, hellions, hellbats, dark templars.
Zerg has no harass. I want to harass enemy too
As much as I respect how good Solar is and how experienced he is, when he says "Zerg is too weak" as a general statement he's pretty much outright lying.
but Solar is progamer
Stats is also a progamer, he's in fact been a progamer for much longer than Solar, and he says Zerg is very strong against Protoss. Solar says Zerg is too weak. They can't both be right.
Which is to say we shouldn't blindly Trust their opinions.
On December 19 2015 23:39 johax wrote: people who say that zerg is too strong, and saying things like solar won dh, how can zerg be weak?
did you even see the games vs parting?
solar won 2 macro games where parting let solar make a spire and save up for a big wave of mutas without scouting it whatsoever. the games where parting acutally scouted the spire he looked near to unbeatable. the other two map wins for solar where games where parting decided to cheese and even then made big mistakes.
solar didn't win because of zerg, he won because parting didn't scout properly and for some reason decided to allin.
Good post from sweden. I quote because truth needs to be the dominant factor in starcraft and not bias.
Keep on the good posts
A zerg says that zerg isn't OP. Another zerg comes along and says that it is correct, and that we should avoid bias. As a zerg, listen to yourself cerebrate! :D
We are all biased. Ok that out of the way, good.
They all seem to agree with each other, right? At least after you subtract a bit of above mentioned bias from everyone.
Z >> P >>> T > Z
This can actually cause Zergs to come out on top, as the tosses kick out all the terrans through the strongest imbalance, and the zergs can rein over the remaining tosses and zergs. I actually made a mathematical model explaining that in a BW context many (8!) years ago, although at that point it was Z > P that was the strongest imbalance which caused T to come out on top. The model. That would fit with how T are ok with TvZ but complain about TvP, P are ok with PvT (or even admit P is favoured!), but complain about PvZ, and finally says everything is fine, but ZvT is too hard.
So yeah, then the solution would be to "fix" TvP, together with a matching nerf to Z to dampen the Z >> P a bit, but without letting the T > Z go out of control. Lurkers maybe?
It is good post, but sorry Solar is pro gamer who many experience and knows good.
Try play zerg. you need much apm for it to deflect attacks. very hard ^^
it is frustrating to defend reaper, liberator, adept, warp prism, oracle, medivac marines, medivac tanks, hellions, hellbats, dark templars.
Zerg has no harass. I want to harass enemy too
As much as I respect how good Solar is and how experienced he is, when he says "Zerg is too weak" as a general statement he's pretty much outright lying.
but Solar is progamer
So are the other players in the interview who state zerg isnt weak.
There is one big difference !
First the other guys say Zerg is a bit too strong versus protoss, but then Solar says people have misconceptions about zerg !
So only Solar is right, because he is calling it. You understand what I mean? ^^
Solar not only say that Zerg is too weak, but that other people don't understand the game as good as he do. It is pretty easy to see that Solar has a better view on this
On December 19 2015 23:39 johax wrote: people who say that zerg is too strong, and saying things like solar won dh, how can zerg be weak?
did you even see the games vs parting?
solar won 2 macro games where parting let solar make a spire and save up for a big wave of mutas without scouting it whatsoever. the games where parting acutally scouted the spire he looked near to unbeatable. the other two map wins for solar where games where parting decided to cheese and even then made big mistakes.
solar didn't win because of zerg, he won because parting didn't scout properly and for some reason decided to allin.
Good post from sweden. I quote because truth needs to be the dominant factor in starcraft and not bias.
Keep on the good posts
A zerg says that zerg isn't OP. Another zerg comes along and says that it is correct, and that we should avoid bias. As a zerg, listen to yourself cerebrate! :D
We are all biased. Ok that out of the way, good.
They all seem to agree with each other, right? At least after you subtract a bit of above mentioned bias from everyone.
Z >> P >>> T > Z
This can actually cause Zergs to come out on top, as the tosses kick out all the terrans through the strongest imbalance, and the zergs can rein over the remaining tosses and zergs. I actually made a mathematical model explaining that in a BW context many (8!) years ago, although at that point it was Z > P that was the strongest imbalance which caused T to come out on top. The model. That would fit with how T are ok with TvZ but complain about TvP, P are ok with PvT (or even admit P is favoured!), but complain about PvZ, and finally says everything is fine, but ZvT is too hard.
So yeah, then the solution would be to "fix" TvP, together with a matching nerf to Z to dampen the Z >> P a bit, but without letting the T > Z go out of control. Lurkers maybe?
It is good post, but sorry Solar is pro gamer who many experience and knows good.
Try play zerg. you need much apm for it to deflect attacks. very hard ^^
it is frustrating to defend reaper, liberator, adept, warp prism, oracle, medivac marines, medivac tanks, hellions, hellbats, dark templars.
Zerg has no harass. I want to harass enemy too
As much as I respect how good Solar is and how experienced he is, when he says "Zerg is too weak" as a general statement he's pretty much outright lying.
but Solar is progamer
So are the other players in the interview who state zerg isnt weak.
There is one big difference !
First the other guys say Zerg is a bit too strong versus protoss, but then Solar says people have misconceptions about zerg !
So only Solar is right, because he is calling it. You understand what I mean? ^^
Solar not only say that Zerg is too weak, but that other people don't understand the game as good as he do. It is pretty easy to see that Solar has a better view on this
So because he says people don't understand the game as well as he does it's automatically true? That train of logic is stupid, sorry. He's probably not even talking about other progamers in that sentence.
On December 19 2015 23:39 johax wrote: people who say that zerg is too strong, and saying things like solar won dh, how can zerg be weak?
did you even see the games vs parting?
solar won 2 macro games where parting let solar make a spire and save up for a big wave of mutas without scouting it whatsoever. the games where parting acutally scouted the spire he looked near to unbeatable. the other two map wins for solar where games where parting decided to cheese and even then made big mistakes.
solar didn't win because of zerg, he won because parting didn't scout properly and for some reason decided to allin.
Good post from sweden. I quote because truth needs to be the dominant factor in starcraft and not bias.
Keep on the good posts
A zerg says that zerg isn't OP. Another zerg comes along and says that it is correct, and that we should avoid bias. As a zerg, listen to yourself cerebrate! :D
We are all biased. Ok that out of the way, good.
They all seem to agree with each other, right? At least after you subtract a bit of above mentioned bias from everyone.
Z >> P >>> T > Z
This can actually cause Zergs to come out on top, as the tosses kick out all the terrans through the strongest imbalance, and the zergs can rein over the remaining tosses and zergs. I actually made a mathematical model explaining that in a BW context many (8!) years ago, although at that point it was Z > P that was the strongest imbalance which caused T to come out on top. The model. That would fit with how T are ok with TvZ but complain about TvP, P are ok with PvT (or even admit P is favoured!), but complain about PvZ, and finally says everything is fine, but ZvT is too hard.
So yeah, then the solution would be to "fix" TvP, together with a matching nerf to Z to dampen the Z >> P a bit, but without letting the T > Z go out of control. Lurkers maybe?
It is good post, but sorry Solar is pro gamer who many experience and knows good.
Try play zerg. you need much apm for it to deflect attacks. very hard ^^
it is frustrating to defend reaper, liberator, adept, warp prism, oracle, medivac marines, medivac tanks, hellions, hellbats, dark templars.
Zerg has no harass. I want to harass enemy too
As much as I respect how good Solar is and how experienced he is, when he says "Zerg is too weak" as a general statement he's pretty much outright lying.
but Solar is progamer
So are the other players in the interview who state zerg isnt weak.
There is one big difference !
First the other guys say Zerg is a bit too strong versus protoss, but then Solar says people have misconceptions about zerg !
So only Solar is right, because he is calling it. You understand what I mean? ^^
Solar not only say that Zerg is too weak, but that other people don't understand the game as good as he do. It is pretty easy to see that Solar has a better view on this
So because he says people don't understand the game as well as he does it's automatically true? That train of logic is stupid, sorry. He's probably not even talking about other progamers in that sentence.
Nononono. Look how Solar is ahead in his mind already. Like in game. He knows what people think and that they are wrong.
It is like with evolution and creationism and earth is flat vs round you understand?
Solar is ahead of them. In 6 months they gonna say "oh Solar was right. It is so easy to beat Zerg with Adepts just attack them"
On December 19 2015 23:39 johax wrote: people who say that zerg is too strong, and saying things like solar won dh, how can zerg be weak?
did you even see the games vs parting?
solar won 2 macro games where parting let solar make a spire and save up for a big wave of mutas without scouting it whatsoever. the games where parting acutally scouted the spire he looked near to unbeatable. the other two map wins for solar where games where parting decided to cheese and even then made big mistakes.
solar didn't win because of zerg, he won because parting didn't scout properly and for some reason decided to allin.
Good post from sweden. I quote because truth needs to be the dominant factor in starcraft and not bias.
Keep on the good posts
A zerg says that zerg isn't OP. Another zerg comes along and says that it is correct, and that we should avoid bias. As a zerg, listen to yourself cerebrate! :D
We are all biased. Ok that out of the way, good.
They all seem to agree with each other, right? At least after you subtract a bit of above mentioned bias from everyone.
Z >> P >>> T > Z
This can actually cause Zergs to come out on top, as the tosses kick out all the terrans through the strongest imbalance, and the zergs can rein over the remaining tosses and zergs. I actually made a mathematical model explaining that in a BW context many (8!) years ago, although at that point it was Z > P that was the strongest imbalance which caused T to come out on top. The model. That would fit with how T are ok with TvZ but complain about TvP, P are ok with PvT (or even admit P is favoured!), but complain about PvZ, and finally says everything is fine, but ZvT is too hard.
So yeah, then the solution would be to "fix" TvP, together with a matching nerf to Z to dampen the Z >> P a bit, but without letting the T > Z go out of control. Lurkers maybe?
It is good post, but sorry Solar is pro gamer who many experience and knows good.
Try play zerg. you need much apm for it to deflect attacks. very hard ^^
it is frustrating to defend reaper, liberator, adept, warp prism, oracle, medivac marines, medivac tanks, hellions, hellbats, dark templars.
Zerg has no harass. I want to harass enemy too
As much as I respect how good Solar is and how experienced he is, when he says "Zerg is too weak" as a general statement he's pretty much outright lying.
but Solar is progamer
So are the other players in the interview who state zerg isnt weak.
There is one big difference !
First the other guys say Zerg is a bit too strong versus protoss, but then Solar says people have misconceptions about zerg !
So only Solar is right, because he is calling it. You understand what I mean? ^^
Solar not only say that Zerg is too weak, but that other people don't understand the game as good as he do. It is pretty easy to see that Solar has a better view on this
So because he says people don't understand the game as well as he does it's automatically true? That train of logic is stupid, sorry. He's probably not even talking about other progamers in that sentence.
Nononono. Look how Solar is ahead in his mind already. Like in game. He knows what people think and that they are wrong.
It is like with evolution and creationism and earth is flat vs round you understand?
Solar is ahead of them. In 6 months they gonna say "oh Solar was right. It is so easy to beat Zerg with Adepts just attack them"
Well, I know what you think, and I say you are wrong.
On December 19 2015 23:51 A_needle_jog wrote: [quote]
Good post from sweden. I quote because truth needs to be the dominant factor in starcraft and not bias.
Keep on the good posts
A zerg says that zerg isn't OP. Another zerg comes along and says that it is correct, and that we should avoid bias. As a zerg, listen to yourself cerebrate! :D
We are all biased. Ok that out of the way, good.
They all seem to agree with each other, right? At least after you subtract a bit of above mentioned bias from everyone.
Z >> P >>> T > Z
This can actually cause Zergs to come out on top, as the tosses kick out all the terrans through the strongest imbalance, and the zergs can rein over the remaining tosses and zergs. I actually made a mathematical model explaining that in a BW context many (8!) years ago, although at that point it was Z > P that was the strongest imbalance which caused T to come out on top. The model. That would fit with how T are ok with TvZ but complain about TvP, P are ok with PvT (or even admit P is favoured!), but complain about PvZ, and finally says everything is fine, but ZvT is too hard.
So yeah, then the solution would be to "fix" TvP, together with a matching nerf to Z to dampen the Z >> P a bit, but without letting the T > Z go out of control. Lurkers maybe?
It is good post, but sorry Solar is pro gamer who many experience and knows good.
Try play zerg. you need much apm for it to deflect attacks. very hard ^^
it is frustrating to defend reaper, liberator, adept, warp prism, oracle, medivac marines, medivac tanks, hellions, hellbats, dark templars.
Zerg has no harass. I want to harass enemy too
As much as I respect how good Solar is and how experienced he is, when he says "Zerg is too weak" as a general statement he's pretty much outright lying.
but Solar is progamer
So are the other players in the interview who state zerg isnt weak.
There is one big difference !
First the other guys say Zerg is a bit too strong versus protoss, but then Solar says people have misconceptions about zerg !
So only Solar is right, because he is calling it. You understand what I mean? ^^
Solar not only say that Zerg is too weak, but that other people don't understand the game as good as he do. It is pretty easy to see that Solar has a better view on this
So because he says people don't understand the game as well as he does it's automatically true? That train of logic is stupid, sorry. He's probably not even talking about other progamers in that sentence.
Nononono. Look how Solar is ahead in his mind already. Like in game. He knows what people think and that they are wrong.
It is like with evolution and creationism and earth is flat vs round you understand?
Solar is ahead of them. In 6 months they gonna say "oh Solar was right. It is so easy to beat Zerg with Adepts just attack them"
Well, I know what you think, and I say you are wrong.
Does that prove that I am right?
When you are better gamer than me then yes you are right about me being wrong
On December 20 2015 00:21 Cascade wrote: [quote] A zerg says that zerg isn't OP. Another zerg comes along and says that it is correct, and that we should avoid bias. As a zerg, listen to yourself cerebrate! :D
We are all biased. Ok that out of the way, good.
They all seem to agree with each other, right? At least after you subtract a bit of above mentioned bias from everyone.
Z >> P >>> T > Z
This can actually cause Zergs to come out on top, as the tosses kick out all the terrans through the strongest imbalance, and the zergs can rein over the remaining tosses and zergs. I actually made a mathematical model explaining that in a BW context many (8!) years ago, although at that point it was Z > P that was the strongest imbalance which caused T to come out on top. The model. That would fit with how T are ok with TvZ but complain about TvP, P are ok with PvT (or even admit P is favoured!), but complain about PvZ, and finally says everything is fine, but ZvT is too hard.
So yeah, then the solution would be to "fix" TvP, together with a matching nerf to Z to dampen the Z >> P a bit, but without letting the T > Z go out of control. Lurkers maybe?
It is good post, but sorry Solar is pro gamer who many experience and knows good.
Try play zerg. you need much apm for it to deflect attacks. very hard ^^
it is frustrating to defend reaper, liberator, adept, warp prism, oracle, medivac marines, medivac tanks, hellions, hellbats, dark templars.
Zerg has no harass. I want to harass enemy too
As much as I respect how good Solar is and how experienced he is, when he says "Zerg is too weak" as a general statement he's pretty much outright lying.
but Solar is progamer
So are the other players in the interview who state zerg isnt weak.
There is one big difference !
First the other guys say Zerg is a bit too strong versus protoss, but then Solar says people have misconceptions about zerg !
So only Solar is right, because he is calling it. You understand what I mean? ^^
Solar not only say that Zerg is too weak, but that other people don't understand the game as good as he do. It is pretty easy to see that Solar has a better view on this
So because he says people don't understand the game as well as he does it's automatically true? That train of logic is stupid, sorry. He's probably not even talking about other progamers in that sentence.
Nononono. Look how Solar is ahead in his mind already. Like in game. He knows what people think and that they are wrong.
It is like with evolution and creationism and earth is flat vs round you understand?
Solar is ahead of them. In 6 months they gonna say "oh Solar was right. It is so easy to beat Zerg with Adepts just attack them"
Well, I know what you think, and I say you are wrong.
Does that prove that I am right?
When you are better gamer than me then yes you are right about me being wrong
But Solar is very good !
The only logical conclusion to this is that if 2 progamers of the same skill disagree about balance the universe implodes.
On December 20 2015 00:45 A_needle_jog wrote: [quote]
It is good post, but sorry Solar is pro gamer who many experience and knows good.
Try play zerg. you need much apm for it to deflect attacks. very hard ^^
it is frustrating to defend reaper, liberator, adept, warp prism, oracle, medivac marines, medivac tanks, hellions, hellbats, dark templars.
Zerg has no harass. I want to harass enemy too
As much as I respect how good Solar is and how experienced he is, when he says "Zerg is too weak" as a general statement he's pretty much outright lying.
but Solar is progamer
So are the other players in the interview who state zerg isnt weak.
There is one big difference !
First the other guys say Zerg is a bit too strong versus protoss, but then Solar says people have misconceptions about zerg !
So only Solar is right, because he is calling it. You understand what I mean? ^^
Solar not only say that Zerg is too weak, but that other people don't understand the game as good as he do. It is pretty easy to see that Solar has a better view on this
So because he says people don't understand the game as well as he does it's automatically true? That train of logic is stupid, sorry. He's probably not even talking about other progamers in that sentence.
Nononono. Look how Solar is ahead in his mind already. Like in game. He knows what people think and that they are wrong.
It is like with evolution and creationism and earth is flat vs round you understand?
Solar is ahead of them. In 6 months they gonna say "oh Solar was right. It is so easy to beat Zerg with Adepts just attack them"
Well, I know what you think, and I say you are wrong.
Does that prove that I am right?
When you are better gamer than me then yes you are right about me being wrong
But Solar is very good !
The only logical conclusion to this is that if 2 progamers of the same skill disagree about balance the universe implodes.
no then they have to play against each other mirror with the race they do not play ^^
like when argument Solar vs parting then both play Bo7 terran and winner can decide truth ^^
On December 20 2015 00:21 Cascade wrote: [quote] A zerg says that zerg isn't OP. Another zerg comes along and says that it is correct, and that we should avoid bias. As a zerg, listen to yourself cerebrate! :D
We are all biased. Ok that out of the way, good.
They all seem to agree with each other, right? At least after you subtract a bit of above mentioned bias from everyone.
Z >> P >>> T > Z
This can actually cause Zergs to come out on top, as the tosses kick out all the terrans through the strongest imbalance, and the zergs can rein over the remaining tosses and zergs. I actually made a mathematical model explaining that in a BW context many (8!) years ago, although at that point it was Z > P that was the strongest imbalance which caused T to come out on top. The model. That would fit with how T are ok with TvZ but complain about TvP, P are ok with PvT (or even admit P is favoured!), but complain about PvZ, and finally says everything is fine, but ZvT is too hard.
So yeah, then the solution would be to "fix" TvP, together with a matching nerf to Z to dampen the Z >> P a bit, but without letting the T > Z go out of control. Lurkers maybe?
It is good post, but sorry Solar is pro gamer who many experience and knows good.
Try play zerg. you need much apm for it to deflect attacks. very hard ^^
it is frustrating to defend reaper, liberator, adept, warp prism, oracle, medivac marines, medivac tanks, hellions, hellbats, dark templars.
Zerg has no harass. I want to harass enemy too
As much as I respect how good Solar is and how experienced he is, when he says "Zerg is too weak" as a general statement he's pretty much outright lying.
but Solar is progamer
So are the other players in the interview who state zerg isnt weak.
There is one big difference !
First the other guys say Zerg is a bit too strong versus protoss, but then Solar says people have misconceptions about zerg !
So only Solar is right, because he is calling it. You understand what I mean? ^^
Solar not only say that Zerg is too weak, but that other people don't understand the game as good as he do. It is pretty easy to see that Solar has a better view on this
So because he says people don't understand the game as well as he does it's automatically true? That train of logic is stupid, sorry. He's probably not even talking about other progamers in that sentence.
Nononono. Look how Solar is ahead in his mind already. Like in game. He knows what people think and that they are wrong.
It is like with evolution and creationism and earth is flat vs round you understand?
Solar is ahead of them. In 6 months they gonna say "oh Solar was right. It is so easy to beat Zerg with Adepts just attack them"
Well, I know what you think, and I say you are wrong.
Does that prove that I am right?
When you are better gamer than me then yes you are right about me being wrong
But Solar is very good !
As a scientist I am better than you at analysis and bias, so I think I am right then.
EPT
INnoVation
Patience
Solar![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iFRm0qK.jpg)
