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On December 14 2015 21:55 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 21:36 NarutO wrote:
You need a team, financial support and most important of all: I guess most are not comfortable with giving up their life to move into a foreign country.
You could say the same about any non-Korean player wanting to think of being skillwise equal to Korean ones. Not mentioning "natural talent" people. Is any pro comfortable with giving up their life to become "as good as Koreans"? You could possibly count them with a single digit. Show nested quote +On December 14 2015 21:47 Vindicare605 wrote:
WCS is like Tennis. Tennis doesn't have region limits. It simply has the big tournaments and it has qualifiers. Anyone can compete and it's one on one that holds the big prestige.
There are 3 main Open tournaments, Australian, French and US where ANYONE can fly in and play. Athlete performance at these open tournaments impact their seeding to Wimbledon which is the Blizzcon of Tennis.
Tennis is the model Starcraft should follow, because it's the one that makes the most sense for how the game is played.
The already known tennis analogy you brought up is probably one of the best systems we can consider. Except in tennis there is no vocal community feeling left out because they are not up to par with Radwańska, Williams, Djokovic or Agassi as they are playing in their own backyard and for free.
The WCS system of 2013 was as close as we could conceivably get to a hybrid of Basketball and Tennis, which is why I loved it so much.
3 main, OPEN leagues which were independent of each other but which all contributed to seeding to the seasonal championships and Blizzcon.
Same idea, only instead of big Dreamhack style events like Tennis uses it was a season format like Basketball or Baseball only much much shorter.
I loved that system, I thought the only thing wrong with it was how many points were given away to invitational tournaments like Redbull Battlegrounds which didn't have qualifiers.
I thought 2013 WCS format was the best. Each league was fun for its own reasons, and each had their own storylines that all led up to an epic finale at Blizzcon.
You're right. It was the community's inferiority complex which got that changed.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On December 14 2015 21:55 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 21:36 NarutO wrote:
You need a team, financial support and most important of all: I guess most are not comfortable with giving up their life to move into a foreign country.
You could say the same about any non-Korean player wanting to think of being skillwise equal to Korean ones. Not mentioning "natural talent" people. Is any pro comfortable with giving up their life to become "as good as Koreans"? You could possibly count them with a single digit. Show nested quote +On December 14 2015 21:47 Vindicare605 wrote:
WCS is like Tennis. Tennis doesn't have region limits. It simply has the big tournaments and it has qualifiers. Anyone can compete and it's one on one that holds the big prestige.
There are 3 main Open tournaments, Australian, French and US where ANYONE can fly in and play. Athlete performance at these open tournaments impact their seeding to Wimbledon which is the Blizzcon of Tennis.
Tennis is the model Starcraft should follow, because it's the one that makes the most sense for how the game is played.
The already known tennis analogy you brought up is probably one of the best systems we can consider. Except in tennis there is no vocal community feeling left out because they are not up to par with Radwańska, Williams, Djokovic or Agassi as they are playing in their own backyard and for free.
Because in Tennis you have small local tournaments, where big stars don't travel, since it's not good for them(travel is more expensive than winning 1st prize). And this is what we don't have for SC2. These small local tournaments and national championships.
I have never seen a winner in Czech Open who is high in ATP ranking and is not from Czech Republic.(= no Djokovic, Agassi, etc.)
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On December 14 2015 21:55 aQuaSC wrote:
You could say the same about any non-Korean player wanting to think of being skillwise equal to Korean ones. Not mentioning "natural talent" people. Is any pro comfortable with giving up their life to become "as good as Koreans"? You could possibly count them with a single digit.
I totally agree. Foreigner gamers, talents, "hopes" should decide if they are real progamers or not. talent alone is not enough.
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On December 14 2015 22:21 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2015 21:55 aQuaSC wrote:On December 12 2015 21:36 NarutO wrote:
You need a team, financial support and most important of all: I guess most are not comfortable with giving up their life to move into a foreign country.
You could say the same about any non-Korean player wanting to think of being skillwise equal to Korean ones. Not mentioning "natural talent" people. Is any pro comfortable with giving up their life to become "as good as Koreans"? You could possibly count them with a single digit. On December 14 2015 21:47 Vindicare605 wrote:
WCS is like Tennis. Tennis doesn't have region limits. It simply has the big tournaments and it has qualifiers. Anyone can compete and it's one on one that holds the big prestige.
There are 3 main Open tournaments, Australian, French and US where ANYONE can fly in and play. Athlete performance at these open tournaments impact their seeding to Wimbledon which is the Blizzcon of Tennis.
Tennis is the model Starcraft should follow, because it's the one that makes the most sense for how the game is played.
The already known tennis analogy you brought up is probably one of the best systems we can consider. Except in tennis there is no vocal community feeling left out because they are not up to par with Radwańska, Williams, Djokovic or Agassi as they are playing in their own backyard and for free. Because in Tennis you have small local tournaments, where big stars don't travel, since it's not good for them(travel is more expensive than winning 1st prize). And this is what we don't have for SC2. These small local tournaments and national championships. I have never seen a winner in Czech Open who is high in ATP ranking and is not from Czech Republic.(= no Djokovic, Agassi, etc.)
And the main difference with Starcraft is that there is no audience for small tournaments that don't have big names. Shoutcraft America is the most notable example of what happens when people attempt to make tournaments like that outside of Europe. They fail miserably.
I'm all for more small tournaments that can have whatever rules they want in terms of who can play in them, what I am 100% against is the BIG global tournament having any of those same rules.
Back at my peak of Starcraft fandom I was even a part of a few leagues like that in North America as a caster. Small semi-pro team leagues with modest prize pools and small time names trying to make a name for themselves. We were all as passionate as we could be about it, but barely anyone watched. No one cared if it wasn't WCS related. No one cared if the prize pool wasn't big enough.
WCS is supposed to be about crowning the best Starcraft player in the world. It's the Premier event, it shouldn't be exclusionary. What Starcraft needs more of are the smaller non-premier events to grow the grass roots of the talent pool. Unfortunately no one gives a shit about those.
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On December 14 2015 22:18 Vindicare605 wrote:
I loved that system, I thought the only thing wrong with it was how many points were given away to invitational tournaments like Redbull Battlegrounds which didn't have qualifiers.
I always hated the very idea of invitational tournaments. If they have to, they should happen once in a while and never give any points for WCS. Never ever.
And the argument of Koreans = more viewers sometimes seemed kind of twisted to me... I don't have anything against them, I lol'd quite hard inside when I read someone in the thread stating that they don't have personalities unlike foreigners. :D But I never understood the connection between Koreans and viewers. They have their own thing which you can watch regularly when the season is ongoing. Why invite them to foreigner tournaments? This clash of foreigners with Koreans that people try to make money off (we have to have the viewers to compete with League of Legends!!!) made the community grow tired and frustrated.
On December 14 2015 22:21 deacon.frost wrote:
Because in Tennis you have small local tournaments, where big stars don't travel, since it's not good for them(travel is more expensive than winning 1st prize). And this is what we don't have for SC2. These small local tournaments and national championships.
I have never seen a winner in Czech Open who is high in ATP ranking and is not from Czech Republic.(= no Djokovic, Agassi, etc.)
Yeah, pretty much. Imagine if small local football tournaments were swarmed with Real Madrid's, Barcelona's or whichever world-class team's youngsters. Haha. Because they "bring viewers". Kappa.
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Region lock would be the best thing to happen to this game.
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It bugs me that Blizzard hasn't released anything official yet and it's all just speculation right now.
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On December 14 2015 23:16 Chaggi wrote:
It bugs me that Blizzard hasn't released anything official yet and it's all just speculation right now.
I am sure the players know something, at least about qualification etc.
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If this is implemented I think that Korean players should go on strike and refuse to compete in any blizzard related tournament until all region locks are removed. Charity tournaments are not esports.
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The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world
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On December 14 2015 23:39 ZombieFrog wrote:
The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world
Here's my theory regarding physical sports.
Excepting special circumstances, like sports that you actually play/played and very local teams, I don't think people follow sports based on liking them especially. I think it's not a coincidence that after Federer started winning everything, suddenly I can't go ten minutes in Switzerland without hearing about tennis. I'd venture the guess that you can go a while in Ireland without hearing about tennis. I'm fairly certain that if Federer and Wawrinka were to die tomorrow in an accident, and nobody would reach their level, over time interest for tennis in Switzerland would decrease dramatically.
Similarly I don't think it's a coincidence that America doesn't very much like soccer and isn't as good at it as it is in games that they like, say basket or hockey.
I'd like to test that theory btw. Now that Lindsey Vonn and that other one whose name I don't remember are pretty good, is there more ski talk in America than there was, say, 10 years ago?
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On December 14 2015 23:39 ZombieFrog wrote:
The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world
That's of course true, kind of hard for me to say as I've never been any close to tennis community, but I think it has something to do with the social acceptance of both tennis and StarCraft and their accessibility. Not everyone has an environment to play tennis even casually, you have to take significant action and sacrifice a lot to become someone from nothing but everyone can jump in to StarCraft's ladder and play without leaving their desk. Seemingly, as it (probably) takes as much dedication as tennis to become truly high-level. And the skill-cap is still rising, since unlike tennis StarCraft II is a game with constantly changing meta too... so people push boundaries with their effort and there is a frustration about the fact that some people can't put as much effort, either because they have worse environment (team house, reliable practice partners, coaches, regular competition) or just lack "all-or-nothing" determination.
Or maybe it's just a social phenomenon of some sort, that this part of people complains, and this one doesn't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these that don't, probably are like that because they don't even think about playing like the best tennis players and they don't feel "worse" because of it. You don't feel worse than Federer or Djokovic if you don't even play tennis. And if you're into a video game, most of the time you just play it. The "true version". I understand the fact that the game as a spectator sport may become boring because "Koreans win everything anyway", it's so awfully hard to compete with them not having the environment that they have for so long now. And most of the people that watch it, play it. Compete, to eventually meet the Great Wall of Korea. They feel discouraged because of the dominance to a point, that whenever foreigner wins over a Korean, it's so good and hype. But 'meh' and 'I knew it' when it's the other way.
Tennis is a sport that has a big spectator number that doesn't strive to compete with these guys, unlike e-sports communities, in which much bigger number of viewers play the game competitively. Yes, gold league is a competition too, although on slightly different level.
EDIT:
Physical sports can be both fun activity and competitive sport, while StarCraft II ladder is only competitive, having Arcade act as it's fun part. Part, which is not considered "true StarCraft" in the vocal community. I'm sure there are lots of people enjoying it.
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On December 14 2015 23:39 ZombieFrog wrote:
The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world
To play devil's advocate for a second, we do currently have Serena Williams who is one of the most dominating athletes the sport has ever seen.
So we have a hell of a consolation prize to help us get over the fact that Europeans dominate the hell out of the men's singles.
But yea, every guy I knew growing up who played Tennis wanted to be Federer or Nadal, the fact they were European didn't distract from the fact they were the best.
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On December 15 2015 00:06 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2015 23:39 ZombieFrog wrote:
The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world That's of course true, kind of hard for me to say as I've never been any close to tennis community, but I think it has something to do with the social acceptance of both tennis and StarCraft and their accessibility. Not everyone has an environment to play tennis even casually, you have to take significant action and sacrifice a lot to become someone from nothing but everyone can jump in to StarCraft's ladder and play without leaving their desk. Seemingly, as it (probably) takes as much dedication as tennis to become truly high-level. And the skill-cap is still rising, since unlike tennis StarCraft II is a game with constantly changing meta too... so people push boundaries with their effort and there is a frustration about the fact that some people can't put as much effort, either because they have worse environment (team house, reliable practice partners, coaches, regular competition) or just lack "all-or-nothing" determination. Or maybe it's just a social phenomenon of some sort, that this part of people complains, and this one doesn't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these that don't, probably are like that because they don't even think about playing like the best tennis players and they don't feel "worse" because of it. You don't feel worse than Federer or Djokovic if you don't even play tennis. And if you're into a video game, most of the time you just play it. The "true version". I understand the fact that the game as a spectator sport may become boring because "Koreans win everything anyway", it's so awfully hard to compete with them not having the environment that they have for so long now. And most of the people that watch it, play it. Compete, to eventually meet the Great Wall of Korea. They feel discouraged because of the dominance to a point, that whenever foreigner wins over a Korean, it's so good and hype. But 'meh' and 'I knew it' when it's the other way. Tennis is a sport that has a big spectator number that doesn't strive to compete with these guys, unlike e-sports communities, in which much bigger number of viewers play the game competitively. Yes, gold league is a competition too, although on slightly different level. EDIT: Physical sports can be both fun activity and competitive sport, while StarCraft II ladder is only competitive, having Arcade act as it's fun part. Part, which is not considered "true StarCraft" in the vocal community. I'm sure there are lots of people enjoying it.
That last part just isn't true though.
I gave up playing Starcraft competitively YEARS ago, but I still play and watch all the time. I play Starcraft because it's the only RTS out there worth playing and goddamn it if I don't still love to blow shit up with Siege Tanks.
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On December 15 2015 00:28 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2015 00:06 aQuaSC wrote:On December 14 2015 23:39 ZombieFrog wrote:
The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world That's of course true, kind of hard for me to say as I've never been any close to tennis community, but I think it has something to do with the social acceptance of both tennis and StarCraft and their accessibility. Not everyone has an environment to play tennis even casually, you have to take significant action and sacrifice a lot to become someone from nothing but everyone can jump in to StarCraft's ladder and play without leaving their desk. Seemingly, as it (probably) takes as much dedication as tennis to become truly high-level. And the skill-cap is still rising, since unlike tennis StarCraft II is a game with constantly changing meta too... so people push boundaries with their effort and there is a frustration about the fact that some people can't put as much effort, either because they have worse environment (team house, reliable practice partners, coaches, regular competition) or just lack "all-or-nothing" determination. Or maybe it's just a social phenomenon of some sort, that this part of people complains, and this one doesn't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these that don't, probably are like that because they don't even think about playing like the best tennis players and they don't feel "worse" because of it. You don't feel worse than Federer or Djokovic if you don't even play tennis. And if you're into a video game, most of the time you just play it. The "true version". I understand the fact that the game as a spectator sport may become boring because "Koreans win everything anyway", it's so awfully hard to compete with them not having the environment that they have for so long now. And most of the people that watch it, play it. Compete, to eventually meet the Great Wall of Korea. They feel discouraged because of the dominance to a point, that whenever foreigner wins over a Korean, it's so good and hype. But 'meh' and 'I knew it' when it's the other way. Tennis is a sport that has a big spectator number that doesn't strive to compete with these guys, unlike e-sports communities, in which much bigger number of viewers play the game competitively. Yes, gold league is a competition too, although on slightly different level. EDIT: Physical sports can be both fun activity and competitive sport, while StarCraft II ladder is only competitive, having Arcade act as it's fun part. Part, which is not considered "true StarCraft" in the vocal community. I'm sure there are lots of people enjoying it. That last part just isn't true though. I gave up playing Starcraft competitively YEARS ago, but I still play and watch all the time. I play Starcraft because it's the only RTS out there worth playing and goddamn it if I don't still love to blow shit up with Siege Tanks.
You're right, I apologize. I looked at it with too personal view I sometimes have. 
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On December 14 2015 23:53 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2015 23:39 ZombieFrog wrote:
The tennis analogy truly sums up how SC2 tournaments are organized, but of course with one important difference in fan reactions. In Tennis a European has won basically every major for years except for the one time Del Potro won. It's almost unheard of for a non-European player to win, much like Koreans in tournaments. And you know what? People love players like Federer and Djokovic in the US and abroad, I have never heard anyone here complain about the fact that European wins every tournament. Not once have a I heard that Europeans should not be allowed to the US open or anything similar, and that is how it should be. The players skill and how they play the game should be the main draw, not the fact that they happen to by coincidence be born in the same part of the world Here's my theory regarding physical sports. Excepting special circumstances, like sports that you actually play/played and very local teams, I don't think people follow sports based on liking them especially. I think it's not a coincidence that after Federer started winning everything, suddenly I can't go ten minutes in Switzerland without hearing about tennis. I'd venture the guess that you can go a while in Ireland without hearing about tennis. I'm fairly certain that if Federer and Wawrinka were to die tomorrow in an accident, and nobody would reach their level, over time interest for tennis in Switzerland would decrease dramatically. Similarly I don't think it's a coincidence that America doesn't very much like soccer and isn't as good at it as it is in games that they like, say basket or hockey. I'd like to test that theory btw. Now that Lindsey Vonn and that other one whose name I don't remember are pretty good, is there more ski talk in America than there was, say, 10 years ago?
I have a great counter-point for you.
Basketball right now is HUGE in China. Like ridiculously huge. Yao Ming was a big part of popularizing it, but he has since retired.
Basketball interest hasn't gone away, if anything it's actually gotten bigger. Kobe Bryant is the biggest name in Basketball over there and he's an American.
Basketball is huge in the Philipines too, and aside from jordan Clarkson on the Lakers now, I can't think of another Filipino player who's ever played.
It's true that national pride SOMETIMES plays a part in making a sport popular but it isn't always the case. It isn't a rule that needs to be enforced somehow through region locking. If it happens it happens, but it doesn't NEED to always be there for a sport to be popular.
Also as per your last question, Skiing in the US isn't as popular as Snowboarding is. Skiing was always kind of seen as a snobby rich person activity like Golf until the X-Games came along, but by that time Snowboarding was already on the rise and I'd say it's vastly more popular than skiing in the US especially among younger people.
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Oh I didn't mean that as an argument for region locking at all. I just think the way something like tennis and something like Starcraft work are very different and not easily comparable. It's pretty obvious that if you're interested in seeing people from your country do well, you're not going to be attracted to a sport where South Korea is and has been crushing everyone else forever. If you're there, you're there because you love the game or one of its races. As such my conclusion is that a region lock wouldn't affect viewership very much at all.
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i dont care as much for large amounts of viewers as i do for hugh quality starcraft as well as fair conditions for players (especially koreans)
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I can't believe Blizzard still haven't released anything -_-
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If Koreans are no longer competing in US/EU tournaments this might greatly increase the popularity of GSL and SSL. Not sure how IEM, DH and the rest will do though.
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EPT
