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On December 12 2015 18:37 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 17:26 Sissors wrote:On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote:
People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead. Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show. So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo. Football is a "Tribal" sport. 95% people support their hometown club. This support is passed on from Parent to Child. You are basically indoctrinated into supporting them I support Newcastle United(my hometown club). They have been shit for the last 10+ years yet i still watch them, and i have no choice in the matter. I dont watch any other english team apart from them. If i want to watch a high quality game i tune into Barca\Real\ Byern etc In order to appreciate the game for its skill & technical ability
You can change your wife, your politics, your religion, but never ever can you change your favourite football team
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On December 12 2015 18:53 Legobiten wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 18:37 Topdoller wrote:On December 12 2015 17:26 Sissors wrote:On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote:
People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead. Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show. So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo. Football is a "Tribal" sport. 95% people support their hometown club. This support is passed on from Parent to Child. You are basically indoctrinated into supporting them I support Newcastle United(my hometown club). They have been shit for the last 10+ years yet i still watch them, and i have no choice in the matter. I dont watch any other english team apart from them. If i want to watch a high quality game i tune into Barca\Real\ Byern etc In order to appreciate the game for its skill & technical ability But Newcastle doesn't go to Champions league just because UEFA gives 8/16 spots to bad teams like in this case.
Well, Maccabi Tel Aviv did play Champions league this season and I'd say they're much worse than lots of teams that didn't qualify. There's not only the best teams in the Champions league or the top nations would definitely get more spots.
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On December 12 2015 19:11 Thouhastmail wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 18:58 Horiken wrote:
In league of legends Korea is by far the best nation, but they only get 3/16 spot . 8/16 is OK. Korea may be strong contry, but just a small Asia country. I don`t get it. So what`s your point? A tourney should be quartered by nation`s size, not by one`s performance?
of course YES. Why FIFA gives 4.5 spot for ASIA in WC? 1 or 2 is enough! Because in Asia there are a lot of viewers. They even try to expand participants 32 to 40, this is because they want China big money. (I don't think China can make it happen even though asia gets 6 or 7 spots) . The most important is money/viewers, competition level next. Korea is strong but they have very few viewers. Imagine LoL is same system as SC2.Most of Worlds participants from Korea. non-korean team knocked out so early. Viewer number will drop significantly. That's why Riot gives spot for every region,only 3 for Korea.
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On December 12 2015 19:24 Lazare1969 wrote:
The effects of lilbow tarnishing people's perception of foreigners are still apparent.
Don't think that has anything to do with it. We all know foreigners struggle to compete with Koreans, that can't be denied All this would do is reinforce that and make Blizzcon a bit of a joke.
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Germany1878 Posts
On December 12 2015 10:10 Highways wrote:
Blizzard has a tough job here.
The foreign scene is dead and they need to do something to help the grassroots so new talents develop.
So people shitting on Blizzard should STFU.
Not by fucking over Koreans and making IEM etc. less interesting, the WCS system with region lock would be fine and then have weekend toournaments where they face off, so basically 2015 with a bit more region lock seems fine, this idea looks really stupid.
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France12911 Posts
Is this confirmed or something?
Some casters said it would be better than the current format but so far it seems completely shitty o_o, no more interaction between koreans and foreigners and only 8 koreans in Blizzcon wtf?
That doesn't make any sense, foreign only tournaments are not worth anything :/.
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Germany1878 Posts
On December 12 2015 10:20 looknohands119 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 10:16 RevTiberius wrote:
Totally devalues the WCS final because you now have 8 foreigners competing in it who would never ever had a chance to qualify under the old system Wat!? WCS finals would be waaaaaaay more exciting. Its an east/west showdown we'll have been waiting for all year long. nothing could be more hype than that. :D
And after the ro8 itll be only Koreans left and the quality of the matches in the ro16 will have been terrible? Name more than 1 player that you think is good enough to desserve to be at Blizzcon, who is of equal skill as the top 16 Koreans...
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On December 12 2015 17:26 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote:
People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead. Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show. So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo.
That reasoning is just wrong imo. NA Football and EU Football are popular, mass-viewership (some might say "casual-friendly", eh) sports, much like LoL, or Formula 1 (20 years ago)/NASCAR, or certain events like the Olympics. These are sports where the casual fans to "hardcore" fans ratio is high : many people watch it without a deep understanding of the rule and a deep knowledge of the sport's history.
On the other hand, look at every other sport :
-do Handball enthusiasts primarily watch events like the World Cup/Euro Championship, or are they only interested by their local club?
-Do athletics fans outside of the Olympics prefer to watch big events featuring big names, or so they prefer to watch small, local events where the best athlete is not even among his country's bests?
-Do contemporary Warcraft III supporters want to see the best games around, even if only Chinese players are winning? Or do they want to see their country's best play against their neighbor country's best, even though both of them would get wrecked by a top 20 Chinese player?
-Do chess fans want to see the best games when they watch chess live? Or do they want to see their local hero play?
I think the answers are pretty obvious. Outside of the few sports/events listed at the beginning, most sports/eSports have a low casual fans to hardcore fans ratio : they are based on a small but strong core of enthusiasts, they are "niche" sports to some extent, as opposed to mass-viewership sports. Thus their growth is not made in the same way as mass-viewership sports : their growth is made by making new people become strong enthusiasts, not casual viewers who watches because there's a French/German/Russian/whatever flag on the screen.
That's the big flaw in Blizzard's reasoning. People have to accept that SC2 is a niche eSport, that it will never have viewer numbers similar to LoL/DotA, that the winner of BlizzCon will never earn 1 million dollars for his win. People - and Blizzard - have to accept that SC2 is not made for mass-viewership - and that's why it's beautiful. And that means catering to the small but strong core of hardcore fans instead of to the chimerical "casual viewer". And that means seeking for tournaments to have the best possible games with the best possible players, independantly of their nationality.
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On December 12 2015 20:04 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 17:26 Sissors wrote:On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote:
People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead. Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show. So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo. That reasoning is just wrong imo. NA Football and EU Football are popular, mass-viewership (some might say "casual-friendly", eh) sports, much like LoL, or Formula 1 (20 years ago)/NASCAR, or certain events like the Olympics. These are sports where the casual fans to "hardcore" fans ratio is high : many people watch it without a deep understanding of the rule and a deep knowledge of the sport's history. On the other hand, look at every other sport : -do Handball enthusiasts primarily watch events like the World Cup/Euro Championship, or are they only interested by their local club? -Do athletics fans outside of the Olympics prefer to watch big events featuring big names, or so they prefer to watch small, local events where the best athlete is not even among his country's bests? -Do contemporary Warcraft III supporters want to see the best games around, even if only Chinese players are winning? Or do they want to see their country's best play against their neighbor country's best, even though both of them would get wrecked by a top 20 Chinese player? -Do chess fans want to see the best games when they watch chess live? Or do they want to see their local hero play? I think the answers are pretty obvious. Outside of the few sports/events listed at the beginning, most sports/eSports have a low casual fans to hardcore fans ratio : they are based on a small but strong core of enthusiasts, they are "niche" sports to some extent, as opposed to mass-viewership sports. Thus their growth is not made in the same way as mass-viewership sports : their growth is made by making new people become strong enthusiasts, not casual viewers who watches because there's a French/German/Russian/whatever flag on the screen. That's the big flaw in Blizzard's reasoning. People have to accept that SC2 is a niche eSport, that it will never have viewer numbers similar to LoL/DotA, that the winner of BlizzCon will never earn 1 million dollars for his win. People - and Blizzard - have to accept that SC2 is not made for mass-viewership - and that's why it's beautiful. And that means catering to the small but strong core of hardcore fans instead of to the chimerical "casual viewer". And that means seeking for tournaments to have the best possible games with the best possible players, independantly of their nationality.
Totally agree with this
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On December 12 2015 19:43 mderg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 18:53 Legobiten wrote:On December 12 2015 18:37 Topdoller wrote:On December 12 2015 17:26 Sissors wrote:On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote:
People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead. Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show. So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo. Football is a "Tribal" sport. 95% people support their hometown club. This support is passed on from Parent to Child. You are basically indoctrinated into supporting them I support Newcastle United(my hometown club). They have been shit for the last 10+ years yet i still watch them, and i have no choice in the matter. I dont watch any other english team apart from them. If i want to watch a high quality game i tune into Barca\Real\ Byern etc In order to appreciate the game for its skill & technical ability But Newcastle doesn't go to Champions league just because UEFA gives 8/16 spots to bad teams like in this case. Well, Maccabi Tel Aviv did play Champions league this season and I'd say they're much worse than lots of teams that didn't qualify. There's not only the best teams in the Champions league or the top nations would definitely get more spots.
And how are they doing in their group?  Last place. It's only in group stages. They're not a team in the top 16 and there are not teams like that taking 8 out of 16 top spots.
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HSC disclaims WCS points because Take wants koreans?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
OK, I just selected SC2 over FLash in my liquibets. And then I read this. I should have wait, there's no chance for SC2 if this is true. SO sad now 
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On December 12 2015 20:23 Legobiten wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 19:43 mderg wrote:On December 12 2015 18:53 Legobiten wrote:On December 12 2015 18:37 Topdoller wrote:On December 12 2015 17:26 Sissors wrote:On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote:
People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead. Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show. So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo. Football is a "Tribal" sport. 95% people support their hometown club. This support is passed on from Parent to Child. You are basically indoctrinated into supporting them I support Newcastle United(my hometown club). They have been shit for the last 10+ years yet i still watch them, and i have no choice in the matter. I dont watch any other english team apart from them. If i want to watch a high quality game i tune into Barca\Real\ Byern etc In order to appreciate the game for its skill & technical ability But Newcastle doesn't go to Champions league just because UEFA gives 8/16 spots to bad teams like in this case. Well, Maccabi Tel Aviv did play Champions league this season and I'd say they're much worse than lots of teams that didn't qualify. There's not only the best teams in the Champions league or the top nations would definitely get more spots. And how are they doing in their group? Last place. It's only in group stages. They're not a team in the top 16 and there are not teams like that taking 8 out of 16 top spots.
La gantoise is top 16 ...
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On December 12 2015 20:04 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 17:26 Sissors wrote:On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote:
People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead. Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show. So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo. That reasoning is just wrong imo. NA Football and EU Football are popular, mass-viewership (some might say "casual-friendly", eh) sports, much like LoL, or Formula 1 (20 years ago)/NASCAR, or certain events like the Olympics. These are sports where the casual fans to "hardcore" fans ratio is high : many people watch it without a deep understanding of the rule and a deep knowledge of the sport's history. On the other hand, look at every other sport : -do Handball enthusiasts primarily watch events like the World Cup/Euro Championship, or are they only interested by their local club? -Do athletics fans outside of the Olympics prefer to watch big events featuring big names, or so they prefer to watch small, local events where the best athlete is not even among his country's bests? -Do contemporary Warcraft III supporters want to see the best games around, even if only Chinese players are winning? Or do they want to see their country's best play against their neighbor country's best, even though both of them would get wrecked by a top 20 Chinese player? -Do chess fans want to see the best games when they watch chess live? Or do they want to see their local hero play? I think the answers are pretty obvious. Outside of the few sports/events listed at the beginning, most sports/eSports have a low casual fans to hardcore fans ratio : they are based on a small but strong core of enthusiasts, they are "niche" sports to some extent, as opposed to mass-viewership sports. Thus their growth is not made in the same way as mass-viewership sports : their growth is made by making new people become strong enthusiasts, not casual viewers who watches because there's a French/German/Russian/whatever flag on the screen. That's the big flaw in Blizzard's reasoning. People have to accept that SC2 is a niche eSport, that it will never have viewer numbers similar to LoL/DotA, that the winner of BlizzCon will never earn 1 million dollars for his win. People - and Blizzard - have to accept that SC2 is not made for mass-viewership - and that's why it's beautiful. And that means catering to the small but strong core of hardcore fans instead of to the chimerical "casual viewer". And that means seeking for tournaments to have the best possible games with the best possible players, independantly of their nationality.
hmmm i can only speak from a US perspective, but i when i played a lot of sc2 there were different tiers of interest... you had your favorite local (state or university-scene level), then your favorite foreigner overall, then your favorite korean.. since you interacted more with your state scene, if your favorite state player went to an MLG you would be much more personally invested in their success than your favorite foreigner (which i dont think this new system promotes at all, and which the original WCS killed anyways since basically all state level tournies died).
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So wcs was giving already too much pts to koreans and that's a fix ? iem/rb/dh without koreans will be very different :S
worst part ofc if they have a work or P1 athletic visa that is valid in Europe or North America As there is no progamer status in Europe, players are going to love spending hours to explain their situation to the administration.
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They are removing WCS and give IEM, Redbull and DH that WCS prizepool? (2015 had $216k per season if I remember correctly)
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Forget it! This thread is bullshit. Nobody reasonable would be ever able to suggest this kind of changes. Probably nothing of the original comment will be true.
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On December 12 2015 20:42 Dingodile wrote:
They are removing WCS and give IEM, Redbull and DH that WCS prizepool? (2015 had $216k per season if I remember correctly)
Or maybe they will keep most of that money, instead of investing it in esports. Who knows.
@OP Who would not love more Lilbow performances at Blizzcon? This is an overstatement, as i am well aware that not every foreigner has such a stupid mindset. But yeah after even one foreigner caused an epic outrage (and rightfully so in my eyes) who came up with the idea to make half of the yearly "top" 16 foreigners? This just seems so unjustified.
Also practically banning Koreans from nearly all international tournaments? Are you serious? This is way to fking retarded to be even regarded for one second. This change would practially kill those tournaments for me personally.
If any of this is true, this is by far the biggest fuck up i´ve ever witnessed by Blizzard. And that right after we got LOTV and with that the great chance to make SC2 something even bigger. But until it is confirmed i will treat this as bullshit as i simply cannot and dont want to believe this!
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They really want to make tournaments have worse, lazier players? Top foreigners would have no reason to push themselves without korean presence at tournaments..
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On December 12 2015 20:33 Philozovic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2015 20:23 Legobiten wrote:On December 12 2015 19:43 mderg wrote:On December 12 2015 18:53 Legobiten wrote:On December 12 2015 18:37 Topdoller wrote:On December 12 2015 17:26 Sissors wrote:On December 12 2015 16:14 Togekiss wrote:
People here saying this won't hurt the foreign scene are completely delusional. Sure, I will tune into foreign streams and support a good personality, but if I want to watch good starcraft I will watch SSL, GSL & PL. I have absolutely zero motivation to watch the "WCS Circuit" tournaments such as DH and IEM etc if it is only foreign players competing. This is like me watching "B" Division European Football when I could be watching Champions League instead. Yet at the same time, barely anyone here (Netherlands) watches foreign soccer clubs regularly (maybe for example the final match of the champions league, but not regularly), while many watch the 'inferior' Dutch clubs. And even their local club, despite it being absolute crap compared to what the national clubs show. So while you have zero motivation to look at this, and thats fine, many others will be more interested in it than just another version of the GSL: If they want to see the GSL, they look at the GSL. Personally I do feel if this is actually true, it would be going too far. But preventing the European/American WCS from being just another Korean affair is good imo. Football is a "Tribal" sport. 95% people support their hometown club. This support is passed on from Parent to Child. You are basically indoctrinated into supporting them I support Newcastle United(my hometown club). They have been shit for the last 10+ years yet i still watch them, and i have no choice in the matter. I dont watch any other english team apart from them. If i want to watch a high quality game i tune into Barca\Real\ Byern etc In order to appreciate the game for its skill & technical ability But Newcastle doesn't go to Champions league just because UEFA gives 8/16 spots to bad teams like in this case. Well, Maccabi Tel Aviv did play Champions league this season and I'd say they're much worse than lots of teams that didn't qualify. There's not only the best teams in the Champions league or the top nations would definitely get more spots. And how are they doing in their group? Last place. It's only in group stages. They're not a team in the top 16 and there are not teams like that taking 8 out of 16 top spots. La gantoise is top 16 ...
The "Lilbow/Nainiwa" of Champions League then!
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EPT
