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Ghosts are not tanky at all, and their damage output has been very low ever since the Snipe nerf.
Ghosts were a very unattractive option because for them to be effective you needed a handful of them. This remains to be true. However before their movement speed buff, they had no escape option if there was detection looming around. Now they have the movement speed to get away from bad situations, but that is stopped cold by the fact that Steady Targeting requires a ghost to stand still for 2 seconds, which leads them to dying if they don't have fodder in front of them.
You are right though that Ghosts being a counter to Ultras was not very well thought out. It works, but it's extremely clunky and it ties into your production of Marines and Marauders, while literally being double the cost to Marauders, meaning if they die then that's a lot of resources down the drain. It's one of many band-aids that Blizzard put on Terran because they realized Ghosts weren't used in TvZ.
Edit: That said, I would actually argue Ghosts are being used a good deal vs Ultras, but it's just given very negative reception for how poorly implemented Steady Targeting is, in addition to having to micro your Bioball, along with other things. Not even Koreans have the APM to do all of that at once.
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On December 05 2015 21:16 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 03:57 scoo2r wrote:
Maybe forcefields could block or cancel out the disruptor shot That would be awesome since you could block the disruptor shot really close to the other player army Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 18:49 DeadByDawn wrote:On December 05 2015 13:44 baabaa wrote:
What is very clear from the post is that there is a bias against zerg. Blizzard is much more willing to listen to complaints about zerg units and to nerf zerg units. the only goal for terran seems to be to get them to use a wider variety of units and this usually means that once they have made certain units ridiculously overpowered, their philosophy is to then buff the other terran units that seem weaker or less used in comparison. This approach is NEVER used by Blizzard when it comes to zerg. Blizzard is forced to admit that there were numerous complaints about the protoss disruptor and despite the ridiculous games involving mass stalker and disruptor in the Dreamhack tournament blatantly refuses to agree with what everyone can plainly see. Not only that, they actually said they want to make the disruptor not able to 1-shot other disruptors... which will only make disruptors get used even more. also the only thing that increasing the energy requirement AND duration for pylon overcharge is to decrease the micro required for a protoss player, making them MORE likely to use this ridiculous ability. I wish the word ridiculous didn't come to mind so often, but it does. I saw a couple of disruptor shots basically insta - kill about 5-6 ultralisks all at once in a particular high level game. And they don't think this is silly yet. You sound like a butt-hurt Zerg. Ever thought of using statistics to check whether your fantasies are well founded? Blizzard refused to nerf Zerg during the BL/Infestor era when they completely dominated. As for Terran Blizzard took 8 months to fix the blink all in fiasco that led to only 3 Terrans out of 32 in Code S - remember ZParcraft?? Currently Zerg are dominating (although it is still early and strats are not thought out) and Blizz are keeping an eye on it. That seems fair, but if you consider that in terms of Premier and Major tournament wins Terran were almost removed from the game in 2015 there is little hope that Blizz will move quickly to address balance issues. I like how you didn't mention GomTvT
That too. But I was really responding to the claim that Blizz is biased against Zerg and favor Terran. I want all races to have a chance of winning - that way when my favourite Terrans win it is meaningful. I generally dislike mirror matches, and the blue flame Hellion wars at MLG, and the Hellbat drop wars in HoTS were of little interest to me.
Also, the idea that Force Fields should block disruptor shots is a good one. You should be able to EMP the shot as well.
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Carrier change is good, Thor change is fantastic (maybe now we can use the big cannons animation instead ? ). I don't really care about the other changes.
The co-op thing is good.
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China6326 Posts
Can't they just let the players pick game speed in coop? It's a weird design choice.
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On December 05 2015 22:37 digmouse wrote:
Can't they just let the players pick game speed in coop? It's a weird design choice.
I think it is for the same reason we don't have additional difficulties.
It is supposed to be a game mode for everyone.
That was their response to people saying that the co op was to easy.
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On December 05 2015 22:37 digmouse wrote:
Can't they just let the players pick game speed in coop? It's a weird design choice.
Wouldn't it be complicated to find matching partners then, unless you played on the most popular - highest - speed?
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The carrier absolutely does not need a buff, and the photon overcharge should be flat out nerfed without a duration increase.
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Buffing carrier isn't good. They are not fun in any way. The only way to use them is to turtle and amove. Any micro and fun resembling their BW state is gone.
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On December 05 2015 19:30 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 19:18 Scrubwave wrote:
Please, "human beings" over at Blizzard have been receiving feedback about, for example, mech being nearly useless for months (years even?). Must be the tone here that makes them incompetent. And they have listened, not many people want Mech in the game. Thank you Blizzard for listening
I dont like playing vs Protoss pls remove Blizzard kthx. Yes we should base decisions only on majorities so we buff the most played race and nerf or remove the others. This is the game everyone wants.
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United Kingdom20274 Posts
On December 06 2015 00:12 Tuczniak wrote:
Buffing carrier isn't good. They are not fun in any way. The only way to use them is to turtle and amove. Any micro and fun resembling their BW state is gone.
Have you played carrier in legacy? They added some control and can add a lot more. You're also saying no buff for design reasons, rather than balance reasons. I think a lot of the designs suck too but it doesn't change how much better or worse than your opponent you need to be to win when using strategies revolving around X unit/style.
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On December 06 2015 00:12 Tuczniak wrote:
Buffing carrier isn't good. They are not fun in any way. The only way to use them is to turtle and amove. Any micro and fun resembling their BW state is gone.
That type of argument can be broadly applied to many units and strategies in the game though. Blizzard has put in too many units and many of them with questionable design. Now they either make them viable - which might lead to rotten playstyles - or they leave them useless - which is incredibly bad design to begin with.
It's a bit of a catch-22 at this point, if they don't consider real deep design changes like making air units viable around more harass and less about combat (BC, BL, Carrier, Voidray), or tackling fundamental issues with playstyles like Mech - insane power for insanely bad production and mobility --> turtleplay.
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Don't think we should change anything right now
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On December 05 2015 04:15 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 03:41 eviltomahawk wrote:
We definitely hear your feedback about Zerg being stronger, and in the games we play ourselves, we can see that a bit. However, in the highest level games that happened so far what we’re seeing is a bit different. I'm a bit confused by that statement. What games do they look at? Only Dreamhack? Only offline? Everything including online cups? 
I think you are mis-interpreting their statement. They are looking at the same games we are watching. They just have a different perspective/opinion on those games.
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I don't like the idea of forcefields blocking disruptor shots. In fact, I am not a fan of any ability canceling out another. I know there are a few interactions currently in the game (e.g. corrosive bile vs forcefields), but I think these kinds of interaction should be highly limited.
Let me explain my reasoning.
In a game with lots of abilities, it will become too much hard counters if ability interaction starts canceling each other out. Imagine if EMP also canceled out Immortal's new hardened shield? What if storm also cleared away viper blinding cloud? You see the problem?
As well, describing abilities will be problematic. Blizzard wants abilities that are easy to describe. If abilities start canceling each other out, should players be told what are these interactions? Should they learn through the fire?
I do think forcefields blocking disruptor shots might be interesting to test, but these kinds of interactions should be kept as minimal as possible.
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On December 05 2015 21:20 HeroMystic wrote:
Ghosts are not tanky at all, and their damage output has been very low ever since the Snipe nerf.
Ghosts were a very unattractive option because for them to be effective you needed a handful of them. This remains to be true. However before their movement speed buff, they had no escape option if there was detection looming around. Now they have the movement speed to get away from bad situations, but that is stopped cold by the fact that Steady Targeting requires a ghost to stand still for 2 seconds, which leads them to dying if they don't have fodder in front of them.
You are right though that Ghosts being a counter to Ultras was not very well thought out. It works, but it's extremely clunky and it ties into your production of Marines and Marauders, while literally being double the cost to Marauders, meaning if they die then that's a lot of resources down the drain. It's one of many band-aids that Blizzard put on Terran because they realized Ghosts weren't used in TvZ.
Edit: That said, I would actually argue Ghosts are being used a good deal vs Ultras, but it's just given very negative reception for how poorly implemented Steady Targeting is, in addition to having to micro your Bioball, along with other things. Not even Koreans have the APM to do all of that at once.
Another problem of using ghosts to counter Ultras is that, as you said, you need meat shield in front, and this meat shield simply disappears in seconds against ultra's AOE.
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On December 06 2015 02:13 Fran_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 21:20 HeroMystic wrote:
Ghosts are not tanky at all, and their damage output has been very low ever since the Snipe nerf.
Ghosts were a very unattractive option because for them to be effective you needed a handful of them. This remains to be true. However before their movement speed buff, they had no escape option if there was detection looming around. Now they have the movement speed to get away from bad situations, but that is stopped cold by the fact that Steady Targeting requires a ghost to stand still for 2 seconds, which leads them to dying if they don't have fodder in front of them.
You are right though that Ghosts being a counter to Ultras was not very well thought out. It works, but it's extremely clunky and it ties into your production of Marines and Marauders, while literally being double the cost to Marauders, meaning if they die then that's a lot of resources down the drain. It's one of many band-aids that Blizzard put on Terran because they realized Ghosts weren't used in TvZ.
Edit: That said, I would actually argue Ghosts are being used a good deal vs Ultras, but it's just given very negative reception for how poorly implemented Steady Targeting is, in addition to having to micro your Bioball, along with other things. Not even Koreans have the APM to do all of that at once. Another problem of using ghosts to counter Ultras is that, as you said, you need meat shield in front, and this meat shield simply disappears in seconds against ultra's AOE.
I think players will learn how to use ghost better. This isn't like feedback. It can be interrupted and all your ghosts are suddenly dead. When ByuN uses them they're never in the open. His ghost are always up a cliff or behind gap or someplace where lings and ultras can't interrupt their spell.
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On December 06 2015 02:25 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 02:13 Fran_ wrote:On December 05 2015 21:20 HeroMystic wrote:
Ghosts are not tanky at all, and their damage output has been very low ever since the Snipe nerf.
Ghosts were a very unattractive option because for them to be effective you needed a handful of them. This remains to be true. However before their movement speed buff, they had no escape option if there was detection looming around. Now they have the movement speed to get away from bad situations, but that is stopped cold by the fact that Steady Targeting requires a ghost to stand still for 2 seconds, which leads them to dying if they don't have fodder in front of them.
You are right though that Ghosts being a counter to Ultras was not very well thought out. It works, but it's extremely clunky and it ties into your production of Marines and Marauders, while literally being double the cost to Marauders, meaning if they die then that's a lot of resources down the drain. It's one of many band-aids that Blizzard put on Terran because they realized Ghosts weren't used in TvZ.
Edit: That said, I would actually argue Ghosts are being used a good deal vs Ultras, but it's just given very negative reception for how poorly implemented Steady Targeting is, in addition to having to micro your Bioball, along with other things. Not even Koreans have the APM to do all of that at once. Another problem of using ghosts to counter Ultras is that, as you said, you need meat shield in front, and this meat shield simply disappears in seconds against ultra's AOE. I think players will learn how to use ghost better. This isn't like feedback. It can be interrupted and all your ghosts are suddenly dead. When ByuN uses them they're never in the open. His ghost are always up a cliff or behind gap or someplace where lings and ultras can't interrupt their spell.
In other words, Ghosts are mech now.
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Im going to throw something out there..i think the game had sped up TOO much. Because of the low resource number per base games end sooner because minerals run out quicker. 2 base plays have less chance of successful transition to third base rtc etc. i hate not having intense late games. I rarely see teir 3 because of this. Whats the point of having teir three if its never used? I think just making the minerals 1200 and 1500. Would be a compromise between HOTS and Cocaine lotv right now. 1200 mins may not sound like a lot, but look how much things changed with 2400 mineral decrease per base!
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On December 06 2015 03:11 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:
Im going to throw something out there..i think the game had sped up TOO much. Because of the low resource number per base games end sooner because minerals run out quicker. 2 base plays have less chance of successful transition to third base rtc etc. i hate not having intense late games. I rarely see teir 3 because of this. Whats the point of having teir three if its never used? I think just making the minerals 1200 and 1500. Would be a compromise between HOTS and Cocaine lotv right now. 1200 mins may not sound like a lot, but look how much things changed with 2400 mineral decrease per base!
Well, the game is still pretty new and noone knows how to react properly. Therefore 2 basing is much more successful to begin with and then on top of that, mainly due to the changes and the 12 worker start we don't even know if certain timings are even fair, so those get played much more than they hopefully will get played eventually. Therefore many games end long before the lategame.
I don't think it has that much to do with the mineral change.
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On December 06 2015 02:25 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2015 02:13 Fran_ wrote:On December 05 2015 21:20 HeroMystic wrote:
Ghosts are not tanky at all, and their damage output has been very low ever since the Snipe nerf.
Ghosts were a very unattractive option because for them to be effective you needed a handful of them. This remains to be true. However before their movement speed buff, they had no escape option if there was detection looming around. Now they have the movement speed to get away from bad situations, but that is stopped cold by the fact that Steady Targeting requires a ghost to stand still for 2 seconds, which leads them to dying if they don't have fodder in front of them.
You are right though that Ghosts being a counter to Ultras was not very well thought out. It works, but it's extremely clunky and it ties into your production of Marines and Marauders, while literally being double the cost to Marauders, meaning if they die then that's a lot of resources down the drain. It's one of many band-aids that Blizzard put on Terran because they realized Ghosts weren't used in TvZ.
Edit: That said, I would actually argue Ghosts are being used a good deal vs Ultras, but it's just given very negative reception for how poorly implemented Steady Targeting is, in addition to having to micro your Bioball, along with other things. Not even Koreans have the APM to do all of that at once. Another problem of using ghosts to counter Ultras is that, as you said, you need meat shield in front, and this meat shield simply disappears in seconds against ultra's AOE. I think players will learn how to use ghost better. This isn't like feedback. It can be interrupted and all your ghosts are suddenly dead. When ByuN uses them they're never in the open. His ghost are always up a cliff or behind gap or someplace where lings and ultras can't interrupt their spell.
The problem with this though, is that although it's doable, it totally nullifies a major characteristic of bio; i.e. that it is flexible and can easily reposition and take fights most places. People won't use the ghost for the same reason that people won't use the ghost much in TvP, because using it necessarily limits the capability of your bio army.
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EPT
