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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On December 05 2015 08:41 Sapphire.lux wrote: Now i can't find it either, but it was taken from a team liquid interview/translation, so it's here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/339200-interviews-bisu-coach-park-and-jaedong#park | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25259 Posts
On December 06 2015 02:25 royalroadweed wrote: I think players will learn how to use ghost better. This isn't like feedback. It can be interrupted and all your ghosts are suddenly dead. When ByuN uses them they're never in the open. His ghost are always up a cliff or behind gap or someplace where lings and ultras can't interrupt their spell. I haven't got to see Byun's Ghost play in action, heard a fair bit about it though. Pretty intrigued to check it out, any idea where I could find some VoDs of him playing with them in TvZ? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On December 06 2015 01:46 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I don't like the idea of forcefields blocking disruptor shots. In fact, I am not a fan of any ability canceling out another. I know there are a few interactions currently in the game (e.g. corrosive bile vs forcefields), but I think these kinds of interaction should be highly limited. Let me explain my reasoning. In a game with lots of abilities, it will become too much hard counters if ability interaction starts canceling each other out. Imagine if EMP also canceled out Immortal's new hardened shield? What if storm also cleared away viper blinding cloud? You see the problem? As well, describing abilities will be problematic. Blizzard wants abilities that are easy to describe. If abilities start canceling each other out, should players be told what are these interactions? Should they learn through the fire? I do think forcefields blocking disruptor shots might be interesting to test, but these kinds of interactions should be kept as minimal as possible. I think it's an intuitive change though, since people keep independently coming up with the same suggestion. Maybe it would be correct to add a small visual effect to a disruptor shot being blocked / deflected so that it becomes clearer to players. Honestly I don't think every interaction in the game needs to be documented thoroughly, especially for something that's only useful for mirror match-ups. Because even if you weren't aware of this functionality of forcefield, you'll spot it the first time you're using disruptors against another protoss. Seeing something in a game is a better way to learn and discover than having to read a tooltip and personally I think it could be a quite cool experience for a new player to witness that. | ||
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StaN.de
Germany50 Posts
- Ultralisk armor, esp. in combination with the significant (!!!!) Maradeur nerf - Viper lategame/air strength - Untouchable nydus worm - Ravager strength/accessibility - Stupid tankivac mechanic (please simply remove this shi**) - Reaper grenades hurting early game and not enabling reaper use in later stages - Terran gameplay has to be centered around a bad designed (op) unit like the liberator to stand a chance in both matchups - Weakness of tanks & cyclones and mech in general - Untouchable Protoss early/midgame due to spammable overcharge while having all offensive "killing" options (e.g. WP+Adept, Oracles, etc etc) at the same time - Disruptor focus in all P matchups - Bad/unusable units: ghost, infestor, swarmhost etc etc The game feels overall very bad from a terran perspective. The race feels very weak and vulnerable in the early- and midgame and you basically have to survive until you reach a good liberator count. The entire terran gameplan is centered around reaching liberators which is bad. The unit is loveless designed, misses the originally role of a AA-unit and is kinda overpowered right now. The TvX winrates might be okay-ish at the moment, but playing terran feels really stupid and dumb. On December 05 2015 05:08 heishe wrote: Except those are not genuinely huge issues and players probably just haven't figured out how to deal with it correctly. For example, Nydus all ins are no problem if you actually prioritize your economy correctly: You just have to have enough stuff to defend vs them. But many players get caught off guard or were too greedy before and then complain when their wall doesn't save them. I mean, your perspective is kind of funny, because the entire reason for wanting to kill a nydus before units come out is because you have no way to deal with them once the units arrive. This just should never be case, and you have to adapt your openings and game progression to survive vs nydus all ins, not ask Blizzard for letting you kill Nydus so you don't have to deal with the units that come through them. (...) But instead they just try to copy all BOs of pros they knew in the past, without actually thinking about why they're doing what they're doing. And as a result Zerg dominates, because Zerg players have been learning this skill since the very beginning when SC2 came out. To scout opponents eco, interpret it, and react to it in just the right manner that you have an econ advantage while also not dying to aggression. And the other two races now need to figure this out vs Zerg, but haven't. Oh dude, what a biased statement! Let me answer from a terran perspective here: - Scouting: I would love to put my flying depots on high grounds around the opponents base, but thats not possible. In reality scouting options past the reaper era are somewhat limited (speedling map control) or expensive (scan). It's not that easy to exactly figure out what the zerg is doing because he needs no real infrastructure to produce and you only see if he is building drones or units when the eggs pop. It's obv. possible to scout for a 3rd base timing, the amount of units/queens and maybe the gas timing at the natural, but you'll never know exactly what the zerg is planning. When you for example scout a "normal" timed 3rd base, you can not know if the zerg is aiming for a full saturation there OR if he plans to use the additional hatchery only for distraction and as a additional production facility. - Adjustment: In comparison to zerg the other races can not adjust fast and without difficulties to scouting information. We have to setup production infrastructure a long time before we can actually start pumping out units. We probably have to start building our 3rd command center BEFORE we are able to scout the zergs allin to not be behind by default. We obv. can stop worker production, but the effect on our unit production is very limited, because we don't have additional infrastructure to spend our (saved) money. It's sometimes simply not possible to have enough stuff do defend because we have to make critical decisions (e.g. 3rd CC vs 4th/5th barracks) a lot earlier in the game and can not adjust in real time. - Wall-in/Nydus worm: I really had to laugh here! The entire game is balanced around using structures to block off certain areas, otherwise terrans would simply be overrun by zergs in the early game. You need to have a defenders advantage to enable strategic play and decision making. The invulnerable nydus worm (combined with a proper roach allin) is kinda unstoppable even when scouted. It feels overall wrong to me that you are not able to deny/react to something even when you managed to spot it PLUS it looks really dumb/stupid when your entire army/workerline is surrounding a invulnerable enemy building  Just my 2 cents & sorry for bad english  | ||
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WhaleOFaTALE1
47 Posts
A: they can come out almost as fast as a reaper, B: if a terran sees roaches early game he is forced to overeact because... C. Bile does too much to bunkers, tank and medi are only way and D. Zerg has no investment going the route, they can just not morph ravagers and be ahead because terran had to prepare. To fix most of these, why not make the roach warren morph into something in order to make ravagers, that way terran can scan and see if they need to prepare and zergs have to invest more into a rush. I dont know why roachs dont need a special buildig to morph to ravagers when... Ling needa bane nest to morph banes Hydra need lurker den to morph lurkers Corruptor need greater spire to morph brood lord Overlord need lair to morph overseer Roaches need no further tech to morph ravager!?!? Like why!? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15956 Posts
On December 06 2015 04:46 StaN.de wrote: - Terran gameplay has to be centered around a bad designed (op) unit like the liberator to stand a chance in both matchups that's true; i feel like protoss in wol and hots with the collossus. | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On December 06 2015 05:33 Charoisaur wrote: that's true; i feel like protoss in wol and hots with the collossus. I would say it's built around the medivac. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On December 06 2015 05:32 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote: The problem with ravagers (for terran) is A: they can come out almost as fast as a reaper, B: if a terran sees roaches early game he is forced to overeact because... C. Bile does too much to bunkers, tank and medi are only way and D. Zerg has no investment going the route, they can just not morph ravagers and be ahead because terran had to prepare. To fix most of these, why not make the roach warren morph into something in order to make ravagers, that way terran can scan and see if they need to prepare and zergs have to invest more into a rush. I dont know why roachs dont need a special buildig to morph to ravagers when... Ling needa bane nest to morph banes Hydra need lurker den to morph lurkers Corruptor need greater spire to morph brood lord Overlord need lair to morph overseer Roaches need no further tech to morph ravager!?!? Like why!? A) I don't get how this is even relevant but anyways it's objectively false. Even if you went all in went 13 pool -> roach warren -> roach -> ravager your opponent can probably have 2 reapers by the time you get the first ravager. Unless you mean the build time of a roach + upgrade time to ravager. In that case I have no idea how this is relevant to anything. Imo it wouldn't change a thing if the upgrade time of ravagers was increased to 15 seconds for example. B,C) No, you don't understand how to counter them. Roach/ravager push is countered by mass marines and micro + medivacs, nothing to do with tanks. D) No investment? They cost 100 gas each, it completely disables Zerg from going Mutas right after, for example, and it will significantly delay Zerg tech for quite a while. Not to mention that Zergs actually have to spend the larvae (instead of droning up themselves) in order to reliably push and do enough damage to make it worth it). Ravagers primary use is actually in breaking up walls and other static defenses to punish opponents who rely too much on their walls and not enough on actual units. The same for Nydus network. Imo they are completely useless against actual units because you can easily outmicro the biles. I get quite happy in ZvZ every time I see my opponent over invest in ravagers for this exact reason. I will say it again, the perspective of people who complain about Ultras/Nydus and Ravagers is completely wrong and warped. They expect to not have to adapt to something and still win. Afraid of Nydus? Make some actual units instead of hardcore teching early on. Afraid of Ultras? How about you don't mass M&m and do more tanks and hellbats instead? Afraid of ravagers? Again, rely on units, not on your wall, and learn to micro. I facepalm every time when I see a replay where a dude has no units and gets crushed by Nydus because they don't scout and have not learned to interpret Zerg drone counts + expo timings + units that are already in their base, and have tons of tech buildings in their base and upgrades running instead of actually having units to defend. Although my point on the ravager bile might be significantly less true in lower leagues (diamond and below). I suppose players of equal skill level there will heavily favor Zerg because bile is easier to use than it is to micro away from the bile shots. This is a design problem with I feel like 90% of abilities in the game though. Too many of them are easy to use and rely on your opponent making mistakes, not on you executing it well (like the reaver/shuttle micro from Brood War) | ||
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StaN.de
Germany50 Posts
Roaches (!!!!!!) and Ravagers can not be countered by "mass marines", esp. early on without stim, shields and medivacs. Nevertheless, you are a very funny and entertaining guy  Thumbs up! | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On December 06 2015 04:28 Wombat_NI wrote: I haven't got to see Byun's Ghost play in action, heard a fair bit about it though. Pretty intrigued to check it out, any idea where I could find some VoDs of him playing with them in TvZ? I think you can check basetrade tv for Olimo league, I think Byun won every TvZ since the release of LoTV. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On December 06 2015 06:25 Vanadiel wrote: I think you can check basetrade tv for Olimo league, I think Byun won every TvZ since the release of LoTV. He's lost some series to Nerchio. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On December 06 2015 06:21 StaN.de wrote: @heishe Roaches (!!!!!!) and Ravagers can not be countered by "mass marines", esp. early on without stim, shields and medivacs. Nevertheless, you are a very funny and entertaining guy Thumbs up!Just watch games by Byul or others when he crushes ravager attacks. It's always the massive amount of marines and other mobile backup, he makes ravagers look mostly useless. He has tanks to back it up, but they mostly don't much contribute to the outcome of the fights. By the way, any reasonable ravager push arrives way after you get stim, shields, and medivacs. I really hope you're not complaining about some kind of early pool into one base ravager all in, that would be ridiculous. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 06 2015 06:21 StaN.de wrote: @heishe Roaches (!!!!!!) and Ravagers can not be countered by "mass marines", esp. early on without stim, shields and medivacs. Nevertheless, you are a very funny and entertaining guy Thumbs up!Roaches are well countered by mass marine/medivac, obviously even harder when you also field marauders. Same goes for when the opponent brings ravagers and you dodge the shots. Obviously there is a big question to be answered whether you can get the amounts necessary especially early on given how larva production works (also as you point out you need stim+shields) but cost for cost and supply for supply marine(/marauder)/medivac is a good solution to roach/ravager. And in any case, Tank/medivac or banshees are good solutions against the early pushes before you get the production to go head to head with them. In all scenarios there is also a huge micro component, given the nature of corrosive bile and medivacs and concaves. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
- Disruptor focus in all P matchups That's just what's going to happen when you nerf colossus and carrier to death but you can't go toe to toe with any race using a primarily gateway force. There's no other unit to fall back to and if the disruptor were removed overnight, toss would be pretty screwed. It's also somewhat weird to see so many people simultaneously complaining about protoss gateway being too weak and too strong. IMO they're alright to strong in the early game but zerg/terran have some very powerful options (stim, medivac, liberator, lurker) which makes it impossible to stand against them in the mid-lategame without units like the disruptor being very powerful. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
On December 06 2015 06:56 [PkF] Wire wrote: I don't think the pylon overcharge change would be good. You actually need a lot of overcharges in early game. Then buff other units to compensate, timings etc. Plenty of stuff never got a proper pass over with the acceleration of the early game and the huge nerfs to chrono boost and there's no need for a band-aid fix in OP overcharge when you can fix it at the source the only thing that i think would be really annoying is the protoss who just send 2 adept shades into your base every 30 seconds like 5 times in a row, that's annoying even now but you can just overcharge every time they do it and come out healthy | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On December 06 2015 06:13 heishe wrote:Too many of them are easy to use and rely on your opponent making mistakes, not on you executing it well (like the reaver/shuttle micro from Brood War) (reaver/shuttle micro in bw is quite risky and difficult, you can do it in different ways, and you must choose well when to really engage in it, playing against also) | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On December 06 2015 07:04 ProMeTheus112 wrote: (reaver/shuttle micro in bw is quite risky and difficult, you can do it in different ways, and you must choose well when to really engage in it, playing against also) Yes that's what I meant. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
edit: oh I got it wrong my bad!!! | ||
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huller20
United States112 Posts
On December 05 2015 03:44 ZAiNs wrote: The overcharge change is disappointing. Making it 'spammable' makes the placement of every Pylon you make more important. Not just that, it almost makes protoss immune to early game aggression. The dps is simply too high. Don't like anything that makes other strategies completely unviable regardless of micro. | ||
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