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8751 Posts
I think the proposed PO change could upend a lot of builds. It's not as simple as looking at how people have played so far and seeing if the outcomes of games would change if PO was 50 energy and lasted longer. Players are playing knowing that it doesn't work like that. If they did, PvP could get messier and Protoss could get weaker against the other races, since the change would make it less effective in most situations. The current PO is in spirit with the theme of LotV in the sense that shorter duration and lower energy cost plays into more action. If it must be made weaker, then finding a damage reduction or attack speed reduction amount that would allow enemy units an extra moment to fight back or escape would feel better than the proposed redesign.
The PvP at DH is not going to be the last word on Disruptors by a long shot. The timing attacks that were hitting before an opponent got Disruptors out, or still had only a small number out, could have been executed a lot better. Players have been greedy with how they've been getting them and punishing that more effectively will reduce the number of Disruptors we see in general. Also we saw none of the Phoenix play designed to deal with Disruptors. In the first place, getting any kind of air unit dissuades someone from making a Disruptor-based army. But if they do march ahead with the Stalker/Disruptor army, then a small number of Phoenixes can lift enemy Disruptors while an anti-Stalker army marches in. Players are already doing it on the KR ladder. There are real builds for which this can actually be done at the pro level; this isn't some theorycrafted counter despite not seeing it at DH. Mass Stalker is too weak in mid-late game PvP without Disruptor support and so the composition is generally unreliable. I think PvP is a perfect situation to let develop rather than intervene in any way. Having said that in my paragraph about Disruptors, it's the PO change that would probably be more disruptive!
Reducing Carrier build time is probably the only hope Carriers have. If they're not used as part of some kind of surprise tech switch or as a finishing move that an already-losing player cannot deal with in time despite seeing it coming, then they're almost never going to be used at the pro level. All three races can currently deal with them too effectively, either by having wide windows to kill a player attempting to get them or by building units to kill the Interceptors or the Carriers themselves or, sadly enough, because their regular army that they were building anyway to deal with other things can also deal with Carriers.
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On December 05 2015 09:03 NonY wrote:
I think the proposed PO change could upend a lot of builds. It's not as simple as looking at how people have played so far and seeing if the outcomes of games would change if PO was 50 energy and lasted longer. Players are playing knowing that it doesn't work like that. If they did, PvP could get messier and Protoss could get weaker against the other races, since the change would make it less effective in most situations. The current PO is in spirit with the theme of LotV in the sense that shorter duration and lower energy cost plays into more action. If it must be made weaker, then finding a damage reduction or attack speed reduction amount that would allow enemy units an extra moment to fight back or escape would feel better than the proposed redesign.
The PvP at DH is not going to be the last word on Disruptors by a long shot. The timing attacks that were hitting before an opponent got Disruptors out, or still had only a small number out, could have been executed a lot better. Players have been greedy with how they've been getting them and punishing that more effectively will reduce the number of Disruptors we see in general. Also we saw none of the Phoenix play designed to deal with Disruptors. In the first place, getting any kind of air unit dissuades someone from making a Disruptor-based army. But if they do march ahead with the Stalker/Disruptor army, then a small number of Phoenixes can lift enemy Disruptors while an anti-Stalker army marches in. Players are already doing it on the KR ladder. There are real builds for which this can actually be done at the pro level; this isn't some theorycrafted counter despite not seeing it at DH. Mass Stalker is too weak in mid-late game PvP without Disruptor support and so the composition is generally unreliable. I think PvP is a perfect situation to let develop rather than intervene in any way. Having said that in my paragraph about Disruptors, it's the PO change that would probably be more disruptive!
Reducing Carrier build time is probably the only hope Carriers have. If they're not used as part of some kind of surprise tech switch or as a finishing move that an already-losing player cannot deal with in time despite seeing it coming, then they're almost never going to be used at the pro level. All three races can currently deal with them too effectively, either by having wide windows to kill a player attempting to get them or by building units to kill the Interceptors or the Carriers themselves or, sadly enough, because their regular army that they were building anyway to deal with other things can also deal with Carriers.
Carriers are perfect as a surprise unit or a "you let me alone for to long" unit as long as they are a skill unit. A normal, core unit, they should never be.
Now you stop wasting time and get Incontrol and Day9 and start a new State of the Game! We miss you
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On December 05 2015 08:14 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 08:01 GinDo wrote:On December 05 2015 07:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 05 2015 07:00 GinDo wrote:On December 05 2015 05:50 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 05 2015 05:36 pmp10 wrote:
Thor changes?
Not that I'm complaining but what discussion made that happen? Buffing mech  Imagine all the dead vikings and medivacs. All the juicy clumped void rays You can do all you want, but you will never ever kill the medivac! Medivac is Terran, Terran is medivac, medivac we are all. All praise the medivac (and Dustin and David by association). Seriously though, as interesting the Medivac is, i think it's the worst think to have happened to Terran because the entire fucking race is now build around it. I thought it was bad when Hellbats were healed by it, but now even Tanks rely on it. You could not make it up i swear lol Totally agree, i also hate how medivac clouds block everything from view. To be honest i hate this whole air unit blob trend. In BW air unit had to be microed to be effective, now they just need to be massed. That's why i dont mind parasitic bomb or the new thor change, because mass air is ugly as hell. The only mass air i wanna see is BC Tank Goliath TvT. Heck i even did'nt even like Carrier Pvt in BW, Arbiter games were so much more fun. All races should have anti air like parasitic bomb. Air is too strong. PB isnt too strong, anti air in general is just too WEAK! Hopefully Thor buff means they will have similar AA too (and this is coming from a Zerg player)
I can agree that better anti air is needed, but imo the reason it's fine that Parasitic Bomb is SO strong, is because Zerg have in general pretty weak air styles and they're more supposed to dominate the ground. So they need a good answer for anti air aswell.
I'm fine with a Thor buff, but I wish they find one that distinguishes the attack from the Liberator more, as opposed to making the two more similar.
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I'm usually on par with the community when it comes to whining about boring/poorly designed stuff but I feel like PvP isn't as bad at you guys depict it. I even KIND OF liked the disruptor wars that I watched during dreamhack. Yet again I haven't bought LotV (and probably won't) and haven't watched that many games.
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- Disruptors should be able to move after they fire their shoot, also lurkers are not produced too early in the game, but can be produce 10 at a time by zerg while disruptors can be produces 2 at a time as 2 robo is a reasonable number on 3 bases . And lurker should cost a bit more too like a bit more gaz heavy i would say (150-170).
- Overcharge spam is not the real issue imo. The fact that it should be casted on pilones makes protoss overbuild them in the early game. They also have to be positionned in order to defend well but good placement for defense is not a placement for buildings. This makes protoss place more pilones than necessary or just put everything at the back of the mineral line. Simcity is very hard now and placing buildings to prevent a scout is even more difficult.
The lack of mineral makes protoss weaker against zerg, especialy heavy ling play or early attacks cuz there is no more meat shield.
-Ravager is a bit too strong i agree with that, stalker should be able to deal with them better.
-Oracle Stasis is trapping too few units it could be interresting to change this as it may change the midgame in zvp , maybe this could be better than a ravager nerf. It could also favorise mixed air and ground openings for protoss that makes him stronger in mid game when zerg decide to switch into mutas.
-Lotv Economic changes favorise zerg in my opinion and now zerg dont realy need an extra base anymore to compete with other races. It's like if they needed only half of a base i would say.
Thank you blizzard for your work and your great communication.
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On December 05 2015 08:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 08:26 Cyro wrote:But in LOTV, the mass air issue now applies to all 3 races because vipers are broken, carriers got mega buffed, and liberators exist Carriers are nerfed a ton from HOTS aside from release interceptor existing in a way that increases power. They have 50 less health and take way longer to get out because chrono is +15% instead of +50% but there's zero compensation in the build time for it. Carriers are still way too strong if the Protoss is allowed to get a lot of them out (which shouldn't happen). I actually agree with a comment above that every race should get parasitic bomb because fuck mass air strategies, let alone them being the strongest in the game.
Parasitic bomb is basically a g0d mode seeker missile with no skill required. Even seeker could be completely avoided/micro'd against, parasitic bomb is just terrible gameplay period.
I agree with Carriers - because i've played all 3 races GM level, and won/lost in every single match-up. When i played ZvP/PvZ surprisingly Protoss was the race that i always won with if i got up to mass carrier / tempest / HT + mothership, and i always lost when i was the Zerg even with mass vipers/spores/hydra. Carriers are ridiculous.
As for every race getting parasitic bomb...i made an entire post about LOTV air units being too strong. Made it a few weeks ago, basically describing that once the game is more figured out every single game is going to trend towards massing your race's respective OP air unit - liberators, carriers, brood+viper.
Every race needs way better anti-air options from the ground. Hydralisks should demolish air units. Cyclones/thors should demolish air units. Stalkers arguably are already quite good against everything including air, and have "parasitic bomb" from the ground called psi storm.
Blizzard won't realize this for a few months though because they only look at early game metagame since that's all their designers are really familiar with. I can see how the meta will be months in advance because i play a defensive style with all 3 races and get to the ultimate late game.
Anyways, i agree - every race needs their "parasitic bomb". Protoss already has it aka psi storm.
Terran could get it in the next patch via new THOR DAMAGE that is splash.
Zerg should get it from a hydralisk upgrade or something or hydra buff to anti-air. And then delete parasitic bomb of course.
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
I agree with Carriers - because i've played all 3 races GM level
Have you? The stuff i saw/heard implied you lost a lot and got to ~low master MMR when offracing. It was also much easier to rank on beta, my archon team was top top GM and that's two players that would never get GM on live.
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On December 05 2015 10:21 Cyro wrote:Have you? The stuff i saw/heard implied you lost a lot and got to ~low master MMR when offracing
I have played all 3 races, every single match-up and won at GM level all through WOL, HOTS, and in LOTV. That includes mirrors of PvP/ZvZ, though obviously those are my worst match-ups out of all 9.
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lol 50 energy.. RIP protoss to lings or any other units early in the game
"Hydras shoud demolish air units" Lol.. they do.. reason why carreir should be buffed. zerg can pop out counters before you even completed your compol
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On December 05 2015 10:43 shin_toss wrote:
lol 50 energy.. RIP protoss to lings or any other units early in the game
Don't exaggerate. Adept still destroy all early game units.
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Remember when Protoss' Gateway units were stronger than the other races' early game units?
Now we're discussing whether Protoss absolutely must have auto-defend pylon cannons in order to not die. This is nonsense.
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On December 05 2015 10:24 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 10:21 Cyro wrote:I agree with Carriers - because i've played all 3 races GM level Have you? The stuff i saw/heard implied you lost a lot and got to ~low master MMR when offracing I have played all 3 races, every single match-up and won at GM level all through WOL, HOTS, and in LOTV. That includes mirrors of PvP/ZvZ, though obviously those are my worst match-ups out of all 9.
Proof?
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I think the disruptor pvp DRAMA should stop.
Parting vs Showtime was the first pvp I enjoyed, maybe ever.
Pvp before, was get killed by my initial tech in 8 min, or lets both agree to wait another 10 min and mass and a move army.
Whoever has one more colo, wins (that was terrible).
Drisruptors make a combo of skill shots and blink dodges, add in the tempest. I would MUCH rather watch that fight then look at a couple massive colo/archon balls jerk off for positioning...
aka, late game hots pvp.
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Make the MSC start with 0 energy. It will fix a lot of early game OPness. If it turns to 50, protoss is dead when we all realize how bad is lotv protoss macro without greedness.
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On December 05 2015 10:24 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 10:21 Cyro wrote:I agree with Carriers - because i've played all 3 races GM level Have you? The stuff i saw/heard implied you lost a lot and got to ~low master MMR when offracing I have played all 3 races, every single match-up and won at GM level all through WOL, HOTS, and in LOTV. That includes mirrors of PvP/ZvZ, though obviously those are my worst match-ups out of all 9.
We're gonna need some evidence for this
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-... DK point out wrong
Reason why Protoss is detrimental to zerg is not because ravager and lurker. Real reason is viper's skill, Parasitic bomb.
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Address the worthless POS that you turned the swarm host into or just remove its carcass from the game
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On December 05 2015 04:34 HeroMystic wrote:
They could just give back High Impact Payload and buff the Anti-Armor damage on that. I don't see why they got rid of it in the first place.
On December 05 2015 04:54 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Thor has guns on its back that cannot fire in a multiplayer game. How about removing them from the model and dropping the supply cost on the Thor?
On December 05 2015 05:52 Thouhastmail wrote:
Thor`s 250mm is for fashion confirmed
The Explosive Payload / Javelin Missile has been dumb ever since the 250mm cannons stopped being used for barrage. It's just bad design. Why use the tiny grey patches near the cockpit to fire missiles instead of the gigantic guns on the backpack?
Some design ideas for the anti-air buff:
1) Bring back Transformer Thor and buff High Impact Payload.
2) Nix the missiles and use 250mm cannons firing 12 flat damage (x4) with no projectile. Make the damage splash like a Flak Cannon.
3) Transformer Thor deploys like a Liberator, with an animation extending the heel claws and raising the 250mm cannons. It projects a forward-facing conical "no-fly zone" and is like the inverse of a Liberator: anything flying into that cone-shaped fire-zone get's BTFO by the 250mm cannons. EDIT Mech is all about stationary area-control; this could fit.
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On December 05 2015 03:41 eviltomahawk wrote:
"We heard your feedback regarding Disruptors... We noticed that the majority of feedback... We also heard... We also heard... We don’t quite agree... However, we appreciate... we did wonder..."
Yes, they heard all the feedback regarding the disruptor. But that doesn't mean shit, because they decided to filter out everything they heard.
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On December 05 2015 08:06 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Balance changes at this point are senseless and an overreaction due to sucking at the game (i.e. less then pro players) it's simply way too soon, we've seen time and time again things that are OP after release (Hellbat drops anyone?) are figured out and become a non issue or perhaps an ever so slight nerf
I mean ... I don't disagree that the maps are part of the problem, but hellbat drops weren't "figured out". They were directly nerfed.
Yeah, the reason Blizzard claimed to need the nerf was "limiting diversity in TvT" by which they really could have said "hellbat drops are so strong that Terrans' only hope in winning against other terrans is by being better at it". Protoss and zerg weren't immune to this, it's just that Blizzard didn't think it was an issue (lots of P and Z did).
Sometimes, things can be figured out (timing attacks, for the most part, to either prevent something which truly isn't viable [once players are aware of the timing attack] ... or mitigation of timing attacks through different preparation / scouting). Most of the time, though, these are the only things that really change without a balance or map change.
Months and months of play aren't needed to see that PB shouldn't really stack.
Months and months of play aren't needed to see that Zerg is slightly too strong.
Some small changes can be done now to address issues that are glaring. Including, yes, less zerg-favored maps so that balance tuning can be more easily done.
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EPT
