EPTCommunity Feedback Update - Nov 13 - Page 2
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zhuwawagu
25 Posts
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ThunderBum
Australia192 Posts
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
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MortosDerpLata
6 Posts
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
It is very good to see that the ladder revamp is getting the attention it so desperately deserves. The % are fine (5/22.5/22.5/22.5/22.5/5 looks rounder to me, but whatever). Whatever the distribution, it should be symmetric about 50%. "Pro" and "semi-pro" sound ridiculous, while Master and GM is fine. However, this discussion is a distraction from the serious issues with the ladder revamp and I'm amazed by the large amount of words spent on discussing something that is purely definitional and of little consequence (if Master was the top 20%, then Master1 would simply be considered old Master). On to the serious issues: 1. Are demotions coming back and bonus pool being removed? If not, why not and how can you say that the ladder revamp is about accuracy? 2. Is the %'s for each league, the % of all players or the % of active players? 3. When you say Master is the top 4%, Diamond is the next 23%, 4% of what? 23% of what? 4. How will inactive players be dealt with, so that they do not clog up the ranks? 5. The league boundaries have been known to drift out of their target % over time, with Blizzard only fixing it when a sufficient number of players notice and complain on the forums, what will be done to ensure that this no longer happens? 6. Given the smaller sub-league sizes in the revamped ladder what, if anything, will be done to reduce the increased occurrence of people moving in and out of sub-leagues? And will this be done in a way that does not distort ranks? Some examples of acceptable answers to the above questions: 1. Demotions are coming back to increase accuracy because skill rating relative to others can move down, not just up, and players may sometimes be placed in a higher league than they should be. Bonus pool is being removed because the ladder should be about skill, not massing games, and having your rank intrinsically fall every single hour is neither accurate nor fun. 2. The league % are % of active players, not % of all players. Active players are defined as, for example, at least 5 games played in the last 2 weeks or 25 games per season. 3. Top 4% means top 4% of MMR, or a percentile of the player's MMR distribution, or points. 4. Inactive players are not included in the league %, can be filtered from the list of player ranks, and maintain their last rank on their profile page, marked as inactive. When inactive players become active again, they are placed back on the list of player ranks, and their profile is no longer marked inactive. A disadvantage of this is that people's sub-league may tend to move down over time if less skilled players are more likely to be inactive. But the advantage is that ranking you against active players is more relevant especially if there are many inactive players, and that it allows you to view your rank both out of active players and out of all players. 5. The MMR boundaries of leagues and sub-leagues update in real-time and people will be promoted and demoted accordingly, to ensure that the target % are maintained, at least approximately. 6. This will be a fluid and continuous scale so nothing will be done to stop people from flip-flopping between leagues if they really are at the boundary. Instead of having sticky boundaries or distorting ranks by deliberately placing people in lower leagues, people are promoted or demoted when their moving average of MMR is within the MMR boundary of the sub-league, ensuring that promotions and demotion is based on the trend and filtering out game-to-game variability. Alternatively, people are promoted or demoted when their points are within the MMR boundary of the sub-league, where points move up and down to approach MMR and the change in points is capped by an amount that is proportional to uncertainty about MMR. This will not stop people flip-flopping between leagues, if they really are at the league boundary but it will reduce volatility in the rankings. David Kim: We’ve explored percentages in the past on this side ranging from 2% to 8~9%. When the number got to 8~9%, we definitely agreed with your feedback in that it felt like “anyone” can get into Master league Is this the sort of flawless reasoning possessed by the ladder designers? 8-9% Master does not, as you say here, mean that 100% of players can enter Master, it means that only 8-9% of players can be in Master at a time, a twelve-fold error. | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
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Penev
28536 Posts
On November 15 2015 19:37 paralleluniverse wrote: Is this the sort of flawless reasoning possessed by the ladder designers? 8-9% Master does not, as you say here, mean that 100% of players can enter Master, it means that only 8-9% of players can be in Master at a time, a twelve-fold error. Dude, he says "anyone", including the quotation marks. That just means "too many" and he's quoting from feedback as well.. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On November 14 2015 06:52 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Please don't change Grandmaster and Master league to Semi-Pro/Pro. Worst thing I've ever heard. 1) the term Pro and Semi-Pro is used for people who earn all or part of their money by playing the game. Naming the leagues after that makes no sense as there is no relation to money. You're not a Starcraft Pro if you reach Grandmaster... 2) Temp0's when I'm Grandmaster song won't work anymore maybe some higher ups at blizzard are thinking of giving the impression to people who come into SC2 that there are more people earning money for playing this game than there really is, and first they are testing behavior of the community by asking this question. They could even justify implementing the change by saying "we have received a lot of positive opinion about this change so we're doing it" and ignoring negative opinions even if majoritary, depending on how it goes  Don't they do that a lot? ActiBlizzard Community Management.Dayvie wrote: We’d also like to ask you guys one question that we ask ourselves often. Instead of Grand Master and Master, would it be cooler to just call these leagues Pro and Semi pro? Our argument for this change would be that GM/Master don’t really have clear meaning in terms of what the fantasy of being one of the best players in the world in SC2, whereas Pro/Semi pro are the terms heavily used in StarCraft that definitely has crystal clear meaning and prestige. An argument against the change could be that we’ve been using GM/Master for so long that that’s just what players are used to, and there now exists a strong correlation between GM and pro-level. We don’t have a good answer yet and we definitely won’t change something that’s been this way for so long unless there are very strong reasons for it, but we wanted to hear your thoughts on this area as well. I find it hard to believe that you have been "asking yourselves this question often" with the main argument being that it would have a "clearer meaning". The meaning is money is earned. It is not the case and will not be. It is not good to give people the wrong impression. That is the main argument against the change, obviously. Are you also planning to modify the GM and Master leagues over time so that only players who have a semi pro or pro status will be listed in there ? | ||
digmouse
China6331 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
Halo 5 also utilize a similar no-demoting system so that players only drop divisions within a rank but will not drop a rank, i.e won't drop from Plat 1 to Gold 6. What is the reason for such a system? As seen in LoL and other games, it creates a very huge and unrealistic bulge at the bottom of every ranking "tier" which is locked, as there is a constant stream or lucky promotions steadily inflating it but nobody can go back down again. That leads to the bottom of every ranking tier being by far the most popular ranks, at the expense of MMR-accuracy and the few divisions above and below each ranking tier threshold. | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On November 14 2015 11:00 zhuwawagu wrote: I don't agree with the league name change. Like people said above, "Pro" means something, like earning your money through playing. same, "Pro" would make little sense. GM and Master is fine and close to what we have in chess. On November 15 2015 19:47 Penev wrote: Instead of Grand Master and Master, would it be cooler to just call these leagues Pro and Semi pro? Wow. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5225 Posts
An amatuer is someone who does something without getting paid. A professional gets paid to do something. They are mutually exclusive, a person is either one or the other. There is no semi-pro. | ||
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Hotshot
Canada184 Posts
Would be a lot more fun if people could see there global rankings. That way people who cared on the silly league stuff could look at it, while people who found the rankings more interesting could look at that. Everyone wins. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3531 Posts
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