EPTDK focuses mostly on feedback about their proposed ladder changes. Overall I like the general direction they're going by fine tuning the leagues.
Community Feedback Update - Nov 13
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
DK focuses mostly on feedback about their proposed ladder changes. Overall I like the general direction they're going by fine tuning the leagues.
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
I came away from watching the MP panel thinking that GM and Masters would really just be one continuos stream of people. I didn't think up at that level there would be divisions it would simply be one big ladder with people jockeying for position. This was the most exciting change for me. It almost sounds like this is not the plan from reading the blog post. I know the initial idea behind the league and divisions when it was originally introduced was players would be overwhelmed by being "13645 Silver." I don't disagree with you. But people at Masters level have put in the time. They want the most clarity. They want the most granular representation of their skill. Someone at masters will not be confused or overwhelmed by seeing 25k+ people in their ladder. They'll like it. This would fix many issues including pro players not being able to reach GM. If it is just one stream of players at the top as long as they're top 200 in ladder points they'll be in GM. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
The league distribution proposals mentioned here are probably fine, with one important caveat. In WoL, every league targeted 20%. By preferring population equality in a normal skill distribution, this causes some leagues to cover a wider rating range than others. For example, if we were to dump 100 random people into a fresh system and start them all at the same rating, their skill would organically separate as they played each other like dripping water onto a flat surface. If you had to then break them out into 20% chunks, the physical gap between #1 and #20 would not look the same as the gap between #40 and #60, because the population density is naturally higher near the middle of the pack. What that means is that in a 20%/quintile system, the top and bottom leagues naturally span more area and therefore take longer to traverse. In HotS, the designers opted for a more normal distribution of 8/20/32/20/18/2. This means that although the populations aren't equal, the rating span per league is. This means that it takes roughly the same number of games to progress from one league to the next, and makes promotions a little more predictable. A 4/23/23/23/23/4 distribution is a hybrid of both previous iterations. The rating ranges per league won't be the same anymore, but they won't vary as much as they did in WoL either. Also, it will make Silver and Diamond the widest leagues, but subdivisions will help with visibility and progress tracking. The one concern I have is whether the subdivisions will be too narrow in Gold and Platinum. Given this, perhaps a 4/19/27/27/19/4 distribution is best? Or 5/20/25/25/20/5 to use rounder numbers? Also, as previously mentioned, "Pro" and "Semi-Pro" have concrete meanings in the StarCraft community. Pros have sponsors and play the game for a living, and Semi-Pros are generally second-stringers or practice partners who make tournament appearances. "Master" and "Grandmaster" apply just fine. | ||
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p4ch1n0
Germany38 Posts
On November 14 2015 05:21 Tenks wrote: Also reposting what I put in reddit since reddit seems to only want to discuss changing GM/Master to Pro/SemiPro -- despite that being the least consequential need for feedback in the post I came away from watching the MP panel thinking that GM and Masters would really just be one continuos stream of people. I didn't think up at that level there would be divisions it would simply be one big ladder with people jockeying for position. This was the most exciting change for me. It almost sounds like this is not the plan from reading the blog post. I know the initial idea behind the league and divisions when it was originally introduced was players would be overwhelmed by being "13645 Silver." I don't disagree with you. But people at Masters level have put in the time. They want the most clarity. They want the most granular representation of their skill. Someone at masters will not be confused or overwhelmed by seeing 25k+ people in their ladder. They'll like it. This would fix many issues including pro players not being able to reach GM. If it is just one stream of players at the top as long as they're top 200 in ladder points they'll be in GM. I think in this post they just focused on the percentages. The other ideas they had at the MP-panel will definitly get a feedback update on their own. Also i'm realy glad they are continuing these community updates. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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Marcinko
South Africa1014 Posts
On November 14 2015 05:42 Excalibur_Z wrote: Given this, perhaps a 4/19/27/27/19/4 distribution is best? Or 5/20/25/25/20/5 to use rounder numbers? Those do look like better numbers for league distribution. | ||
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p4ch1n0
Germany38 Posts
On November 14 2015 06:00 ROOTFayth wrote: so is GM going to be fixed or still the same garbage? Yes, if your MMR drops below top200 you will get master and someone else will take your spot. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
And btw wasn't masters always supposed to be 2%? Don't see why they have to increase the size so much. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
jesus christ that sounds like a fucking awful change | ||
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
I dont think that 4% Bronze is a great idea. You are (stuck) in Bronze and look at this way: From "+80% of all players are better than me" to"+96% of all players are better than me". | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
1) the term Pro and Semi-Pro is used for people who earn all or part of their money by playing the game. Naming the leagues after that makes no sense as there is no relation to money. You're not a Starcraft Pro if you reach Grandmaster... 2) Temp0's when I'm Grandmaster song won't work anymore | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Please, God, no. Just keep it as it is, but let people be demoted mid season. leagues can never be the right size if people can only move upwards. We are grown ups. Come on Blizzard put the big boy pants on and do the right thing. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
I was Masters in HotS and I never made money playing this game. The two are not related. | ||
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
Cut that title change, it's terrible | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Considering all the problems with SC2 ladder they seem only intent of changing the names for the worse, and shuffly the eprcentages around. Not really worthy of an update, which implies actual thought or processes to be done. | ||
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Haighstrom
United Kingdom196 Posts
But what happened to league subdivisions? That was the change I was most excited about. Since ladder ranks are meaningless (normally the #1 spot is some guy who's played tons of games with a 49% win rate), having some system to see how far you are from being promoted would be fantastic. As you rightly say, masters has a huge skillgap between top and bottom, so players will have more motivation to keep playing if they see they went from masters rank 6 to 5 to 4 over time (rather than just knowing they've been in masters for months and have no idea if they're approaching grandmaster or not). For me, I'm in diamond, and I think I'm edging closer to masters league (I play masters players occasionally now). But it would be great to see something more concrete to show I'm now "high" diamond rather than just me speculating. When I do hit masters, I won't be a "semi-pro" - I work full time, and SC2 is a hobby for me. I would say one becomes a master of a hobby, not a semi-pro. Literal pros who are for whatever reason currently high masters will be super miserable with "semi-pro" as a title. So I don't like the proposed new names. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9362 Posts
Hope Blizzard comes up with some type of solution here. There should be a significant difference between being top 1000 and rank 3500. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On November 14 2015 08:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Pro and semi pro as new names is such a wierd and bad idea, I don't understand how it can be suggested. How can you have names for a ranking that reflects a level of employment? It just doesn't make sense. Really though sc2 need more leagues. If silver-diamond are supposed to encompase 92% of the players, why not have 6 or 8 ranks to represent that instead of just 4? Or why not have vastly more and get rid of this bizarre "no ranking down" system, so people can compare themselves with others easier? Considering all the problems with SC2 ladder they seem only intent of changing the names for the worse, and shuffly the eprcentages around. Not really worthy of an update, which implies actual thought or processes to be done. Silver-Diamond will effectively contain 40 leagues through subdivisions. Didn't you see the Ladder Revamp post or the associated panel at Blizzcon? | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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zhuwawagu
25 Posts
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ThunderBum
Australia192 Posts
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
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MortosDerpLata
6 Posts
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
It is very good to see that the ladder revamp is getting the attention it so desperately deserves. The % are fine (5/22.5/22.5/22.5/22.5/5 looks rounder to me, but whatever). Whatever the distribution, it should be symmetric about 50%. "Pro" and "semi-pro" sound ridiculous, while Master and GM is fine. However, this discussion is a distraction from the serious issues with the ladder revamp and I'm amazed by the large amount of words spent on discussing something that is purely definitional and of little consequence (if Master was the top 20%, then Master1 would simply be considered old Master). On to the serious issues: 1. Are demotions coming back and bonus pool being removed? If not, why not and how can you say that the ladder revamp is about accuracy? 2. Is the %'s for each league, the % of all players or the % of active players? 3. When you say Master is the top 4%, Diamond is the next 23%, 4% of what? 23% of what? 4. How will inactive players be dealt with, so that they do not clog up the ranks? 5. The league boundaries have been known to drift out of their target % over time, with Blizzard only fixing it when a sufficient number of players notice and complain on the forums, what will be done to ensure that this no longer happens? 6. Given the smaller sub-league sizes in the revamped ladder what, if anything, will be done to reduce the increased occurrence of people moving in and out of sub-leagues? And will this be done in a way that does not distort ranks? Some examples of acceptable answers to the above questions: 1. Demotions are coming back to increase accuracy because skill rating relative to others can move down, not just up, and players may sometimes be placed in a higher league than they should be. Bonus pool is being removed because the ladder should be about skill, not massing games, and having your rank intrinsically fall every single hour is neither accurate nor fun. 2. The league % are % of active players, not % of all players. Active players are defined as, for example, at least 5 games played in the last 2 weeks or 25 games per season. 3. Top 4% means top 4% of MMR, or a percentile of the player's MMR distribution, or points. 4. Inactive players are not included in the league %, can be filtered from the list of player ranks, and maintain their last rank on their profile page, marked as inactive. When inactive players become active again, they are placed back on the list of player ranks, and their profile is no longer marked inactive. A disadvantage of this is that people's sub-league may tend to move down over time if less skilled players are more likely to be inactive. But the advantage is that ranking you against active players is more relevant especially if there are many inactive players, and that it allows you to view your rank both out of active players and out of all players. 5. The MMR boundaries of leagues and sub-leagues update in real-time and people will be promoted and demoted accordingly, to ensure that the target % are maintained, at least approximately. 6. This will be a fluid and continuous scale so nothing will be done to stop people from flip-flopping between leagues if they really are at the boundary. Instead of having sticky boundaries or distorting ranks by deliberately placing people in lower leagues, people are promoted or demoted when their moving average of MMR is within the MMR boundary of the sub-league, ensuring that promotions and demotion is based on the trend and filtering out game-to-game variability. Alternatively, people are promoted or demoted when their points are within the MMR boundary of the sub-league, where points move up and down to approach MMR and the change in points is capped by an amount that is proportional to uncertainty about MMR. This will not stop people flip-flopping between leagues, if they really are at the league boundary but it will reduce volatility in the rankings. David Kim: We’ve explored percentages in the past on this side ranging from 2% to 8~9%. When the number got to 8~9%, we definitely agreed with your feedback in that it felt like “anyone” can get into Master league Is this the sort of flawless reasoning possessed by the ladder designers? 8-9% Master does not, as you say here, mean that 100% of players can enter Master, it means that only 8-9% of players can be in Master at a time, a twelve-fold error. | ||
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Penev
28463 Posts
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Penev
28463 Posts
On November 15 2015 19:37 paralleluniverse wrote: Is this the sort of flawless reasoning possessed by the ladder designers? 8-9% Master does not, as you say here, mean that 100% of players can enter Master, it means that only 8-9% of players can be in Master at a time, a twelve-fold error. Dude, he says "anyone", including the quotation marks. That just means "too many" and he's quoting from feedback as well.. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On November 14 2015 06:52 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Please don't change Grandmaster and Master league to Semi-Pro/Pro. Worst thing I've ever heard. 1) the term Pro and Semi-Pro is used for people who earn all or part of their money by playing the game. Naming the leagues after that makes no sense as there is no relation to money. You're not a Starcraft Pro if you reach Grandmaster... 2) Temp0's when I'm Grandmaster song won't work anymore maybe some higher ups at blizzard are thinking of giving the impression to people who come into SC2 that there are more people earning money for playing this game than there really is, and first they are testing behavior of the community by asking this question. They could even justify implementing the change by saying "we have received a lot of positive opinion about this change so we're doing it" and ignoring negative opinions even if majoritary, depending on how it goes  Don't they do that a lot? ActiBlizzard Community Management.Dayvie wrote: We’d also like to ask you guys one question that we ask ourselves often. Instead of Grand Master and Master, would it be cooler to just call these leagues Pro and Semi pro? Our argument for this change would be that GM/Master don’t really have clear meaning in terms of what the fantasy of being one of the best players in the world in SC2, whereas Pro/Semi pro are the terms heavily used in StarCraft that definitely has crystal clear meaning and prestige. An argument against the change could be that we’ve been using GM/Master for so long that that’s just what players are used to, and there now exists a strong correlation between GM and pro-level. We don’t have a good answer yet and we definitely won’t change something that’s been this way for so long unless there are very strong reasons for it, but we wanted to hear your thoughts on this area as well. I find it hard to believe that you have been "asking yourselves this question often" with the main argument being that it would have a "clearer meaning". The meaning is money is earned. It is not the case and will not be. It is not good to give people the wrong impression. That is the main argument against the change, obviously. Are you also planning to modify the GM and Master leagues over time so that only players who have a semi pro or pro status will be listed in there ? | ||
digmouse
China6327 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
Halo 5 also utilize a similar no-demoting system so that players only drop divisions within a rank but will not drop a rank, i.e won't drop from Plat 1 to Gold 6. What is the reason for such a system? As seen in LoL and other games, it creates a very huge and unrealistic bulge at the bottom of every ranking "tier" which is locked, as there is a constant stream or lucky promotions steadily inflating it but nobody can go back down again. That leads to the bottom of every ranking tier being by far the most popular ranks, at the expense of MMR-accuracy and the few divisions above and below each ranking tier threshold. | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On November 14 2015 11:00 zhuwawagu wrote: I don't agree with the league name change. Like people said above, "Pro" means something, like earning your money through playing. same, "Pro" would make little sense. GM and Master is fine and close to what we have in chess. On November 15 2015 19:47 Penev wrote: Instead of Grand Master and Master, would it be cooler to just call these leagues Pro and Semi pro? Wow. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
An amatuer is someone who does something without getting paid. A professional gets paid to do something. They are mutually exclusive, a person is either one or the other. There is no semi-pro. | ||
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Hotshot
Canada184 Posts
Would be a lot more fun if people could see there global rankings. That way people who cared on the silly league stuff could look at it, while people who found the rankings more interesting could look at that. Everyone wins. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
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