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On November 23 2015 20:04 Radovan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 04:37 Musicus wrote:On October 25 2015 04:32 14CC wrote:On October 25 2015 04:29 Musicus wrote:
What are you thoughts? If someone feels they have a meaningful contribution, they're more than welcome to post it on TeamLiquid. Advertising for other sites is cancerous. This is an important topic that deserves to be discussed and the article includes various opinions from pro players like Lilbow or Snute. I also did include the most important points in the OP and didn't just post a link. In general TL and Root have a friendly relationship and CatZ certainly sends people to TL all the time, whether it's on his stream or during casts. Also you should watch your language and try to be less aggressive in expressing your opinion. I am not sure what happened here, but to me it seems you are being aggressive in this statement.
Lol, looking back at it I guess I got baited, but I think that's okay when someone calls you cancerous while you are just trying your best to contribute to TL. And I was honstely trying to help him improve his posting quality and avoid a warning. But that didn't work out since he got temp banned anyway.
Seems like this thread is relevant again after Davd Kim mentioned looking into a system that rewards WCS points on ladder, just as CatZ suggested.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/498835-community-feedback-update-november-20
However, if we were to integrate the top of the ladder with Esports (such as with WCS points, for example) it might be possible to incentivize players to use their correct IDs on ladder. We have begun discussing the possibilities on our development team in an effort to create the most accurate/transparent ladder, especially at the top. With our current ladder system however, changes doesn’t seem possible due to issues we’ve discussed at BlizzCon. So, as we work to redesign the ladder, we’ll also be in discussions with our Esports team to see what can be done here.
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I dont believe its nessecary a good idea. If ladder gives you wcs points, winning will be all that matters. Everyone will cheese his way to wcs.
Another point is that players will experiment less, find no new ways to play, will only play what they already know it works. It will end in less creativity. Nobody will waste his time and just play as much games as possible.
But the most important point is that it will create pressure! More you play, more points you will have. But can everyone play a lot of games? Some may have part time jobs or go to school but are skilled enough to beat top 16 gm.
The questions are will the better players reach the top? Will everyone have the same chance to compete? Will it create fun and creative games?
I believe the qualifier is still the better way.
EDIT: Maybe it will work if the majority of points come from qualifiers so that everyone has the same chance and time to practise cool strategies. But in cases where players are really close in ranking/skill, the ladder points could decide the winner. That may create already an incentive to play more ladder.
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On November 23 2015 22:30 todespolka wrote:
I dont believe its nessecary a good idea. If ladder gives you wcs points, winning will be all that matters. Everyone will cheese his way to wcs.
Another point is that players will experiment less, find no new ways to play, will only play what they already know it works. It will end in less creativity. Nobody will waste his time and just play as much games as possible.
But the most important point is that it will create pressure! More you play, more points you will have. But can everyone play a lot of games? Some may have part time jobs or go to school but are skilled enough to beat top 16 gm.
The questions are will the better players reach the top? Will everyone have the same chance to compete? Will it create fun and creative games?
I believe the qualifier is still the better way.
EDIT: Maybe it will work if the majority of points come from qualifiers so that everyone has the same chance and time to practise cool strategies. But in cases where players are really close in ranking/skill, the ladder points could decide the winner. That may create already an incentive to play more ladder.
Oh I am sure the qualifiers would stay, it's just some extra points on top of the WCS tournaments. A few hundred points earned through the year through ladder could make the difference at the end.
Shoutcraft NA has proven that the ladder can be good. It was the best month the NA ladder ever had and it was actually a competitive place, the pros loved it. Blizzard is looking to make the ladder meaningful and competitive just like it was then.
Smurfs, unranked and custom games can still be used to be creative and try new stuff. I don't think cheesing every game will get you to the top of the ladder btw, you can't hide behind a barcode anymore and people will know you if you cheese every game.
If Blizzard can detect cheaters/account sharers and win traders, there won't be any problem and I think they can. There was no problem during Shoutcraft or Destiny I as well. Everybody who qualified was legit.
NA ladder is just bad and meaningless right now. Barcodes are a problem, something needs to be done and I'm very happy Blizzard took note.
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On October 26 2015 03:35 ROOTCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2015 20:01 KelsierSC wrote:
how many korean players are on Root? One right now (hydra), over time we've had: Sage - Lived @ ROOT house and played WCS system YuGiOh - Lived in KR and played GSL system Hydra - Lives @ ROOT house and plays WCS system
Supernova!
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Maybe it's just me but I don't enjoy watching foreigners play just so they can beat other foreigners and become king of the foreigners. I enjoy watching foreigners play if they can give the good Koreans a run for their money. I like watching Snute, Bunny, Mana, Naniwa, Huk (on a good day)... the guys that can actually compete with the top level players.
Korean StarCraft is just *BETTER to me. It's like watching Premier League Football. Watching WCS feels like MLS in comparison. You can just TELL their micro isn't as good and their builds are not as refined. Sure there are "exciting games," usually as a result of both players making a lot of mistakes, but on average all the players are much worse and on average it's not as fun to watch.
I don't think any foreigner can tell you with a straight face that Koreans don't improve the quality of StarCraft in their region. But I think for personal reasons, most decent foreign pros would rather they DIDN'T have to play the Koreans. More prize money and stream views for them, obviously. A guy like HuK for example can rule WCS if you take all the Koreans out, and he'll always argue that there shouldn't be Koreans, that people prefer local heroes, etc. (he tweets about it all the damn time). So obviously any foreign pro is biased towards not having Koreans in their competition... But what they don't realize is that some people would rather watch all Koreans than no Koreans.
I don't watch Snute because he's Norwegian. I watch him because he's really good at the game and sometimes he beats other people who are good at the game (and who happen to be Korean).
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I have no doubt the idea is sound. After the Lilbow debacle though I stand by there only being one solution: End the Region Lock
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On November 24 2015 00:58 showstealer1829 wrote:
I have no doubt the idea is sound. After the Lilbow debacle though I stand by there only being one solution: End the Region Lock
Lilbow wasn't a debacle. It was one player managing his PR badly and showing some bravado to cover his loss of hope. Sure it shouldn't have happened, but what was the resulting harm - one series that was one-sided vs the second best player in the world? It certainly shouldn't weigh in on how the whole system is designed.
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On November 24 2015 00:58 showstealer1829 wrote:
I have no doubt the idea is sound. After the Lilbow debacle though I stand by there only being one solution: End the Region Lock
As a viewer, I'd rather see a talented Korean in that spot than Lilbow any day of the week.
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I don't think it "helps" any scene in any way to have "foreigners" kicked in World finals instead of qual or Ro32 just because they had an easier path.
SC2 and esport is about winning, and I'm well fine about a perfect meritocracy where you're blocked in your advancements/achievements by your competences ONLY.
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Hey look, another illuminated thread with the magic formula to solve all the problems SC2 has. And with instant effect.
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On November 23 2015 21:31 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2015 20:04 Radovan wrote:On October 25 2015 04:37 Musicus wrote:On October 25 2015 04:32 14CC wrote:On October 25 2015 04:29 Musicus wrote:
What are you thoughts? If someone feels they have a meaningful contribution, they're more than welcome to post it on TeamLiquid. Advertising for other sites is cancerous. This is an important topic that deserves to be discussed and the article includes various opinions from pro players like Lilbow or Snute. I also did include the most important points in the OP and didn't just post a link. In general TL and Root have a friendly relationship and CatZ certainly sends people to TL all the time, whether it's on his stream or during casts. Also you should watch your language and try to be less aggressive in expressing your opinion. I am not sure what happened here, but to me it seems you are being aggressive in this statement. Lol, looking back at it I guess I got baited, but I think that's okay when someone calls you cancerous while you are just trying your best to contribute to TL. And I was honstely trying to help him improve his posting quality and avoid a warning. But that didn't work out since he got temp banned anyway. Seems like this thread is relevant again after Davd Kim mentioned looking into a system that rewards WCS points on ladder, just as CatZ suggested. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/498835-community-feedback-update-november-20Show nested quote +However, if we were to integrate the top of the ladder with Esports (such as with WCS points, for example) it might be possible to incentivize players to use their correct IDs on ladder. We have begun discussing the possibilities on our development team in an effort to create the most accurate/transparent ladder, especially at the top. With our current ladder system however, changes doesn’t seem possible due to issues we’ve discussed at BlizzCon. So, as we work to redesign the ladder, we’ll also be in discussions with our Esports team to see what can be done here.
Alright, makes sense, I was just confused, no worries.
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On November 24 2015 00:06 Ignorant prodigy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 03:35 ROOTCatZ wrote:On October 25 2015 20:01 KelsierSC wrote:
how many korean players are on Root? One right now (hydra), over time we've had: Sage - Lived @ ROOT house and played WCS system YuGiOh - Lived in KR and played GSL system Hydra - Lives @ ROOT house and plays WCS system Supernova!
lol oops!!! edited in, thank you
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On November 24 2015 03:51 Apoteosis wrote:
Hey look, another illuminated thread with the magic formula to solve all the problems SC2 has. And with instant effect.
Nah, it's a 10 page article that took 30+ hours to write and it's written by me, not to braggerino, one of the people with the most experience in StarCraft 2 and eSports as a whole in our scene, who also happens to have been a pro-gamer for 5 years and a SC2 competitive player for close to 15 making me very in touch with players wants and needs + owning a team and being a frequenter of forums like TL and reddit keeps me up to date on what our viewership wants. I understand sc2 at a very high level, and I understand everything I talk about and I've been talking about it for 5 years, it's hardly a magic formula, it's just I am more qualified than almost anyone to talk about these things and I do! because I love this game and I want it to succeed, and because the future of SC2 is and has been directly related to my success in eSports.
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On November 24 2015 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
Maybe it's just me but I don't enjoy watching foreigners play just so they can beat other foreigners and become king of the foreigners. I enjoy watching foreigners play if they can give the good Koreans a run for their money. I like watching Snute, Bunny, Mana, Naniwa, Huk (on a good day)... the guys that can actually compete with the top level players.
Korean StarCraft is just *BETTER to me. It's like watching Premier League Football. Watching WCS feels like MLS in comparison. You can just TELL their micro isn't as good and their builds are not as refined. Sure there are "exciting games," usually as a result of both players making a lot of mistakes, but on average all the players are much worse and on average it's not as fun to watch.
I don't think any foreigner can tell you with a straight face that Koreans don't improve the quality of StarCraft in their region. But I think for personal reasons, most decent foreign pros would rather they DIDN'T have to play the Koreans. More prize money and stream views for them, obviously. A guy like HuK for example can rule WCS if you take all the Koreans out, and he'll always argue that there shouldn't be Koreans, that people prefer local heroes, etc. (he tweets about it all the damn time). So obviously any foreign pro is biased towards not having Koreans in their competition... But what they don't realize is that some people would rather watch all Koreans than no Koreans.
I don't watch Snute because he's Norwegian. I watch him because he's really good at the game and sometimes he beats other people who are good at the game (and who happen to be Korean).
That's exactly how i feel. "Local heroes" are only heroes if they can beat the best. Otherwise i see little point in watching inferior games when i could watch the top pros. There are only so many games i can watch, i so i'd always choose the best.
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On November 24 2015 05:16 ROOTCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 03:51 Apoteosis wrote:
Hey look, another illuminated thread with the magic formula to solve all the problems SC2 has. And with instant effect. Nah, it's a 10 page article that took 30+ hours to write and it's written by me, not to braggerino, one of the people with the most experience in StarCraft 2 and eSports as a whole in our scene, who also happens to have been a pro-gamer for 5 years and a SC2 competitive player for close to 15 making me very in touch with players wants and needs + owning a team and being a frequenter of forums like TL and reddit keeps me up to date on what our viewership wants. I understand sc2 at a very high level, and I understand everything I talk about and I've been talking about it for 5 years, it's hardly a magic formula, it's just I am more qualified than almost anyone to talk about these things and I do! because I love this game and I want it to succeed, and because the future of SC2 is and has been directly related to my success in eSports.
Okay, SC2 is your job and you have personal interest in it; I get it.
But why you post your idea here? I mean, your aim is to convince the people who has actual power to modify the game. Not us, the costumers.
Have you tried to arrange a meeting with blizzard staff? I think they are willing to hear your proposals... So why don't you give it a try?
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On November 24 2015 08:56 Apoteosis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 05:16 ROOTCatZ wrote:On November 24 2015 03:51 Apoteosis wrote:
Hey look, another illuminated thread with the magic formula to solve all the problems SC2 has. And with instant effect. Nah, it's a 10 page article that took 30+ hours to write and it's written by me, not to braggerino, one of the people with the most experience in StarCraft 2 and eSports as a whole in our scene, who also happens to have been a pro-gamer for 5 years and a SC2 competitive player for close to 15 making me very in touch with players wants and needs + owning a team and being a frequenter of forums like TL and reddit keeps me up to date on what our viewership wants. I understand sc2 at a very high level, and I understand everything I talk about and I've been talking about it for 5 years, it's hardly a magic formula, it's just I am more qualified than almost anyone to talk about these things and I do! because I love this game and I want it to succeed, and because the future of SC2 is and has been directly related to my success in eSports. Okay, SC2 is your job and you have personal interest in it; I get it. But why you post your idea here? I mean, your aim is to convince the people who has actual power to modify the game. Not us, the costumers. Have you tried to arrange a meeting with blizzard staff? I think they are willing to hear your proposals... So why don't you give it a try?
You really think it's that simple? Just calling up Blizzard and telling them how to do their jobs better?
No, this is a far better way to go about things. You put an idea out there, you see if you have support, and you refine it based on feedback. At the same time you give Blizzard the chance to see the results of the discussion and evaluate things based on what they see and what they're considering.
Having an open discussion about issues is a good thing, I don't see why you'd want to discourage that.
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I'm a little unclear on people's hacking concern. The only use of WCS points is to be able to compete in WCS tournaments, no? So if someone was top of the ladder, they could get a few points to help them get to Blizzcon. What would a hacker do with WCS points, even if they got them? I mean CatZ compares to the Hearthstone system – there are bots in Hearthstone that reach Legend, but so what? Even if someone used a bot to reach Legend and got some points toward getting to go to Blizzcon, they'd still have to compete in qualifiers and such, and if they suck and just use a bot, then they'll still just lose.
So if we allow WCS points for people at the top of the ladder, those points will go to either:
a) legitimate players who practiced hard to get to the top of the ladder
b) no-name hackers who aren't good enough to win without hacking
c) legitimate players who decided to use hacks to get to the top of the ladder
Scenario a) seems good, and scenario b) doesn't matter much. Scenario c) would be terrible, if we incentivized good players to start cheating because they want to get to the top. But do we think pro players would really start doing that a lot? And don't you think we could probably find evidence of their hacking at some point if well-known players were hacking to reach the top of the ladder?
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I don't think the whole anti-barcode thing belonged. It's a personal preference. Some people enjoy having the ego involved and some people don't. For tournaments it's inevitable that everyone's identity is known and it seems pretty selfish for the people who prefer that to want to take over the ladder too. Since ladder is simultaneously practice, not purely a competition like WCS, I think it's reasonable to respect wishes for anonymity. I feel like this argument is CatZ the team owner and esports business guy talking (and maybe his personal preference too) and not necessarily what the majority of players want or what's best for everyone.
As for the servers being imbalanced, even if the NA server improved some because of incentives, the KR server will still be significantly better. Anyone who can tolerate the ping would be better off playing KR. But if they're "forced" to play NA because the incentives are too substantial, then you're really forcing people to get worse practice.
What's harder, asking players to get used to practicing in high latency or setting up a second competitive ladder? I think the latter is such an absurdly difficult thing to do and I really question how hard it is for most NA players to play on KR.
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On November 24 2015 05:48 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
Maybe it's just me but I don't enjoy watching foreigners play just so they can beat other foreigners and become king of the foreigners. I enjoy watching foreigners play if they can give the good Koreans a run for their money. I like watching Snute, Bunny, Mana, Naniwa, Huk (on a good day)... the guys that can actually compete with the top level players.
Korean StarCraft is just *BETTER to me. It's like watching Premier League Football. Watching WCS feels like MLS in comparison. You can just TELL their micro isn't as good and their builds are not as refined. Sure there are "exciting games," usually as a result of both players making a lot of mistakes, but on average all the players are much worse and on average it's not as fun to watch.
I don't think any foreigner can tell you with a straight face that Koreans don't improve the quality of StarCraft in their region. But I think for personal reasons, most decent foreign pros would rather they DIDN'T have to play the Koreans. More prize money and stream views for them, obviously. A guy like HuK for example can rule WCS if you take all the Koreans out, and he'll always argue that there shouldn't be Koreans, that people prefer local heroes, etc. (he tweets about it all the damn time). So obviously any foreign pro is biased towards not having Koreans in their competition... But what they don't realize is that some people would rather watch all Koreans than no Koreans.
I don't watch Snute because he's Norwegian. I watch him because he's really good at the game and sometimes he beats other people who are good at the game (and who happen to be Korean). That's exactly how i feel. "Local heroes" are only heroes if they can beat the best. Otherwise i see little point in watching inferior games when i could watch the top pros. There are only so many games i can watch, i so i'd always choose the best.
I used to feel that way, but now when I do watch games I'm more likely to pick matches with good stories over matches with good players, and with a few exceptions I find foreigner stories more interesting. I have less time to play and watch anything these days and my affair with chess means I play and watch even less. I'm not concerned with actively trying to improve, and not trying to mine things to use in my own games as much, so I guess the whole experience is different for me now.
But I've always been interested in foreign success and the conditions necessary to produce a world class foreign player. The desire to see healthy western esports, what it represents to me, was a big part of why I was into starcraft in the first place.
Then again I watch college basketball and not the NBA so maybe I'm weird.
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EPT
