EPTJust no.
10 pages on WCS, Region Lock and Ladder by CatZ - Page 2
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
Just no. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 25 2015 20:57 StarStruck wrote: He wrote an article last season too. Durrr. The thing is it's not going to change anything as we've seen time and time again. Something new that he added is ladder points and we all know how that's going to play out with hacking and shit. Giving them more incentive to cheat and we all know there are those players who do it. Just no. It's also not just hackers getting points (in case anyone is wondering) it's also hackers influencing the ladder by denying potential points to players. | ||
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corydoras
161 Posts
I wonder if this should not be extended a bit. WCS points themselves don't necessarily matter if there is few of them. For example, if being top1 GM was equal to winning a major WCS tournament and being top16 GM was equal to getting to Ro16 of such tournament, the incentive would be there, but not neccesarily a huge one. What if being topN (top64? top128?) gave a "bye" or a similar perk in WCS qualifiers? This would: - give another incentive to play ladder for up-and-coming players, as it takes away the argument "Why play ladder to win the season, if I still won't get to Blizzcon without winning a lot of other tournaments" - be another method of "de-barcoding" the ladder, - ultimately, help grow the number of players involved in the WCS system. Otherwise, I totally agree with CatZ. As it is in any industry, people will become seriously involved only if there is an opportunity to make a living. I don't care if WCS championship is "worth less" than GSL championship. I also don't care that WCS might provide lower-level games (though the last WCS Finals in Krakow showed that foreigner-dominated WCS can be awesome and pretty high-level). This is nothing special in any sport. Compare NBA championship to literally any other national championship in basketball - do people stop playing probasketball in other countries? No, because there are sponsors, leagues, fans and ultimately money to earn. Let's make it so in Starcraft. EDIT: The criticism referring to cheating seems valid. However, I consider it obvious that IF ladder is expected to matter something in WCS, the anti-cheating activity on Blizzard's side would have to increase. The effect of patch 3.0 will not last forever. | ||
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Dingodile
4139 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On October 25 2015 21:05 Plexa wrote: It's also not just hackers getting points (in case anyone is wondering) it's also hackers influencing the ladder by denying potential points to players. Well that would be another incentive for Blizzard to take hacking really seriously. For any player that wants to receive WCS points for his ladder rank, extra measures could be taken. Let's say the top32 ranks award WCS points, but every player has to send in their replays or can randomly be requested by Blizzard to do so. Also hackers get busted really fast by the other players on that level of play. | ||
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AWalker9
United Kingdom7229 Posts
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IceBerrY
Germany220 Posts
On October 25 2015 21:25 Dingodile wrote: I hope they change the prizepool. I dont think its great to catch $4,5k if you are in top32. reduce it to 4k and give that money to 1-4th places, maybe 5th -8th places too. Do you mind to elaborate why this would be good? I personally believe its better if a wide range of players get some money, so that more players are able to play this game for a living. | ||
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Estancia
Korea (South)335 Posts
Personally I feel that soft region lock is working out for EU, but not for NA. The level of standard of EU compared to NA is higher, and because of that top EU players can definitely handle some B-Team Koreans that are seeking to change region. If we look at EU region : EU Challenger Season 3
If you look at the above list you can see that EU region is actually quite good and can handle small number of Koreans. So far they only have 1, but I think they can have up to 3-4 B/A-tier Koreans and still put up a decent fight, and it can actually benefit the scene and help improve the level of play there. This WCS season was actually a great one to display that, watching foreigner final was hype as hell. On the other hand, if we look at NA scene: NA Challenger Season 3
I think the above example pretty much sums up the state of the NA scene. Maybe back in the past when we had some NA hopes like Scarlett, or if you go further back Idra and Huk, NA scene was probably even, or better than EU scene. But now, EU scene is generally more competitive than NA scene, When NA pros can't even compete against EU pros, or even SEA/China pros you can't expect them to compete against Korean B-teamers. Maybe one of the reason EU has less Korean player is because it is seen as being more competitive and Koreans want to play in a easier region (and probably its harder to get visa in EU). The benefit of having Korean players in a region only comes when the region is able to compete with at least the Korean B-teamers. EU is a great example of this, and actually I think EU can actually do better with 1-2 more Koreans, and actually help out the scene by providing them with practice partner of slightly higher skill to compete against. On the other hand, I think having Korean pros in NA isn't really helping out the scene, just because the skill gap is too large (I guess Neeb and Hitman are the only exception here). I think they need hard region locking and taking some steps to improve the region overall before softening the region lock. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On October 25 2015 21:05 Plexa wrote: It's also not just hackers getting points (in case anyone is wondering) it's also hackers influencing the ladder by denying potential points to players. yep, it's just like what? The funny thing is CatZ out of anybody knows about TL's Star League and look at how many people we caught hacking back then too. Fuck, even players who wouldn't expect to win trade and shit did it. No, we're not going back to the WC3 days allowing players to get through ladder or KBK. No dice. There is just too much shit that can go down and at least this way we can look at the online samples from qualifiers and look at those closely to limit the bullshit we're going to have to sift through. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On October 26 2015 01:18 StarStruck wrote: yep, it's just like what? The funny thing is CatZ out of anybody knows about TL's Star League and look at how many people we caught hacking back then too. Fuck, even players who wouldn't expect to win trade and shit did it. No, we're not going back to the WC3 days allowing players to get through ladder or KBK. No dice. There is just too much shit that can go down and at least this way we can look at the online samples from qualifiers and look at those closely to limit the bullshit we're going to have to sift through. On October 25 2015 21:46 Musicus wrote: Well that would be another incentive for Blizzard to take hacking really seriously. For any player that wants to receive WCS points for his ladder rank, extra measures could be taken. Let's say the top32 ranks award WCS points, but every player has to send in their replays or can randomly be requested by Blizzard to do so. Also hackers get busted really fast by the other players on that level of play. Hacking is always going to be there whether we like it or not. Doing what we're currently doing makes the job a little easier when it comes to the WCS at least. You will never win by trying to stop hacking altogether. The best we can do against the cheaters is looking at them under a microscope. | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On October 25 2015 20:01 KelsierSC wrote: how many korean players are on Root? One right now (hydra), over time we've had: Sage - Lived @ ROOT house and played WCS system YuGiOh - Lived in KR and played GSL system SuperNova - Lived in KR and played GSL system * Hydra - Lives @ ROOT house and plays WCS system | ||
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Dingodile
4139 Posts
On October 25 2015 21:48 IceBerrY wrote: Do you mind to elaborate why this would be good? I personally believe its better if a wide range of players get some money, so that more players are able to play this game for a living. Dont you feel weird if you get 8k for 5th place while someone gets 4,5k for 32nd place? | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On October 26 2015 01:18 StarStruck wrote: yep, it's just like what? The funny thing is CatZ out of anybody knows about TL's Star League and look at how many people we caught hacking back then too. Fuck, even players who wouldn't expect to win trade and shit did it. No, we're not going back to the WC3 days allowing players to get through ladder or KBK. No dice. There is just too much shit that can go down and at least this way we can look at the online samples from qualifiers and look at those closely to limit the bullshit we're going to have to sift through. Ok so, I wouldn't worry too much about hackers, and the ladder is a big place regardless. The ladder solution, realistically only applies to less than a handfull of players that will potentially use the points to cash for blizzcon, there won't be less or more hackers because of it, it'll just give the ladder more meaning. I wouldnt be concerned about cheaters because they can't win offline events and will never make it to blizzcon even if they finish #1 every season, and if there was someone hacking at the very top i'm sure we'll find them if blizzard doesn't. Also hackers would deny points to everyone equally on average, except maybe streamers but that's a minority that would get affected and most streamers probably won't be making it to blizzcon anyway (rip me) | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On October 26 2015 03:37 Dingodile wrote: Dont you feel weird if you get 8k for 5th place while someone gets 4,5k for 32nd place? I think that the current pay structure is the best for incentives and to foster talent, people will want to get #1 no matter what. If you think about it, it's rare that anyone, players included, complain about the current pay structure, where if it became more top heavy, I'm sure some people would have bad things to say about it and there would be less room for up and coming talent to make their way into the scene | ||
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PockyStix
Canada39 Posts
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TRaFFiC
Canada1448 Posts
It really annoys me to see people saying we can't make the ladder more important because of cheaters. I would take it even further than Catz is suggesting and have people qualify for tournaments solely based on ladder rank (a la shoutcraft). If the integrity of the ladder is not high enough to allow this, then Blizzard needs to FIX IT. Blizzard said they would make ladder more important last year requiring Koreans to be master at least. Well, it failed. The only people on NA ladder have no aspirations for winning any tournaments, ever. We need MUCH stronger incentives to get people to play ladder in their region. Finally, regarding bar codes, I totally agree with Catz. It's not just knowing who you are playing, it's looking at the ladder and seeing your favorite players in the top! That's motivating the new generation. | ||
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Elentos
55571 Posts
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infii
Germany153 Posts
On November 23 2015 18:47 Elentos wrote: Thread is a month old <.< Well then thanks for bringing it up again, since I missed it! And it was a wonderful read. | ||
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Radovan
44 Posts
On October 25 2015 04:37 Musicus wrote: This is an important topic that deserves to be discussed and the article includes various opinions from pro players like Lilbow or Snute. I also did include the most important points in the OP and didn't just post a link. In general TL and Root have a friendly relationship and CatZ certainly sends people to TL all the time, whether it's on his stream or during casts. Also you should watch your language and try to be less aggressive in expressing your opinion. I am not sure what happened here, but to me it seems you are being aggressive in this statement. | ||
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LDaVinci
France130 Posts
As far as the idea of ladder WCS points and cash prize seems good I still see a problem. What if people up someone else's account ? Let say a top 4 player upping someone else to top 32 and sharing prize money ? I don't know if this is realistic in term of play time, and probably the account up should already be not bad (top 50) so the up don't take too long. But I've heard of players having two bar codes account in top 8 ladder, so why not this? In this system, it seems to me more problematic than hackers. | ||
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