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On October 21 2015 10:32 BisuDagger wrote:
AfreecaTV has been allowing banned BW players to play for some time. They have the approach where let the law do it's justice and let afreeca users do their streaming. It's not afreecas job to deal punishment and they have every right to just stay out of it. Social justice warriors are bad for society. I may not be happy with Savior, but if the man was earning a living off afreeca in BW then that's his prerogative. After the law has done it's part, the sentencing is over.
That's not how I view this. It is not about preventing any individual from making an income, nor is it about the community witch-hunting any particular player who tarnished the scene. This is about trying to establish a collective effort from everyone involved in the e-sports to "turn the table around", so to speak, to combat the culture of match fixing and illegal gambling in Korea. This is about trying to get everyone pursue the same goal and objective.
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I see some weird analogies here. The point of the article is, the matchfixers can buy as many groceries as they want and nobody would care about that. They can flip burgers at McDonald's, and that's okay either. And as long as they don't stream 'the game' they matchfixed on, they can stream too. It's not an irrational revenge that community is seeking. They just want the matchfixers away from the game they ruined. So if you would really like to have an analogy on that, it should be something like a child molester working at a kindergarten, not a child molester buying shampoo at a store.
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On October 21 2015 11:00 kchany2 wrote:
You foreigners just dont care because you dont really care about starcraft.
Should these criminals be banned from buying groceries? Definetely not. Should these match fixers be ever banned from starcraft? Definetely so, u retards.
Let's take a look at other sports. If a soccer player is caught match fixing, he is not allowed to get jobs related to soccer ever again. He should find another job.
And these match fix streamers should at least not stream on starcraft. I hope all of you would be happy if a guy who commited a sexual crime stream playing around with teenage girls.
You get my point? It's not like we should kill match fixers. But they should at least be stopped from getting profits with starcraft, the very game he damaged so heavily.
You guys just don't care the fuck about this issue because you are living thousands of miles away and are not really related to all this stuff. Korean esports scene almost went on destruction the last time match fixing happened, and lot of hard-working people lost their job. It's totally fair for innocent people to be banned from the scene and criminals to stay on this scene to earn money, right???? I see your point^^
And don't tell me esports and streaming is different issue. I'll be pissed off to hell. They're fucking playing the same game and getting profits out of it. Like I've said, ex-soccer player caught match fixing is even banned from teaching soccer to kids or in anyway earn money with soccer. Oh, you really dont consider esports as sports, right? So be it. We Koreans DO want esports to be sports and wont allow it.
They are STREAMING. its different from taking an actual job in the field, the past matchfixers are no longer progamers and do not play in any major competitive events.
as streamers what do they need? they need VIEWERS. If you or society as a whole think they should not profit from playing their old game casually, what should you do? thats right, just simply DO NOT WATCH AND SUPPORT his stream.
Afreeca as any for profit company at least do not start becoming pretentious and discriminate ex-convicts from streaming, because they know that the law and society will sort these people out anyway.
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They are STREAMING. its different from taking an actual job in the field, the past matchfixers are no longer progamers and do not play in any major competitive events.
On that note though, quite a few streamers consider it a job. Doesn't matter what arbitrary rules you set for what you consider "a job". If it pays the bills, it's a job.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50392 Posts
On October 21 2015 11:04 r_gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:00 kchany2 wrote:
You foreigners just dont care because you dont really care about starcraft.
Should these criminals be banned from buying groceries? Definetely not. Should these match fixers be ever banned from starcraft? Definetely so, u retards.
Let's take a look at other sports. If a soccer player is caught match fixing, he is not allowed to get jobs related to soccer ever again. He should find another job.
And these match fix streamers should at least not stream on starcraft. I hope all of you would be happy if a guy who commited a sexual crime stream playing around with teenage girls.
You get my point? It's not like we should kill match fixers. But they should at least be stopped from getting profits with starcraft, the very game he damaged so heavily.
You guys just don't care the fuck about this issue because you are living thousands of miles away and are not really related to all this stuff. Korean esports scene almost went on destruction the last time match fixing happened, and lot of hard-working people lost their job. It's totally fair for innocent people to be banned from the scene and criminals to stay on this scene to earn money, right???? I see your point^^
And don't tell me esports and streaming is different issue. I'll be pissed off to hell. They're fucking playing the same game and getting profits out of it. Like I've said, ex-soccer player caught match fixing is even banned from teaching soccer to kids or in anyway earn money with soccer. Oh, you really dont consider esports as sports, right? So be it. We Koreans DO want esports to be sports and wont allow it. Honestly, many people doesn't seem to know how much impact match-fixing scandal back in Brood War had in destroying the esports scene. I've even seen people saying let's accept YoDa / B4 with open arms if they decide to join foreign teams and play in foreign tournaments.
where have you read this, how fucking ridiculous that anyone could say such a thing.
I watched the 2010 matchfixing scandal unfold and I know how fans saw the game after that, people calling matchfixing whenever a player even slightly underperformed in their play and just this massive distrust towards the players, the teams and sponsors who just gave up on backing the game and lead to the downfall of what was the greatest Esport that I have ever come to know and love.
On October 21 2015 11:11 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +They are STREAMING. its different from taking an actual job in the field, the past matchfixers are no longer progamers and do not play in any major competitive events.
On that note though, quite a few streamers consider it a job. Doesn't matter what arbitrary rules you set for what you consider "a job". If it pays the bills, it's a job.
as far as I know only savior streamed so much that you could consider it his job but now even he deleted his afreeca account, I believe Hwasin and go.go have real jobs and don't stream that often.
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M4ini/ Who the hell said that they are the same? Learn to read and understand properly.
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On October 21 2015 11:05 m4ini wrote:
TIL matchfixers = rapist and/or pedophile.
Some people are just beyond stupid.
you're right, those aren't comparable.
rapists and pedos only hurt people and children
matchfixers hurt something much more valuable. they hurt ESPORTS
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On October 21 2015 10:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I've also held the same opinion up until the fact that afreeca themselves now not only host but run the GSL and that it hurts their integrity by allowing matchfixers to use their streaming service.
Basically this.
If this was just a case of "random streaming service allows matchfixers to continue streaming" then there wouldn't be as much of an outcry. But this is the company that has the rights to the GSL next year. And now they're welcoming matchfixers with open arms to their platform? Its just comical.
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On October 21 2015 11:11 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +They are STREAMING. its different from taking an actual job in the field, the past matchfixers are no longer progamers and do not play in any major competitive events.
On that note though, quite a few streamers consider it a job. Doesn't matter what arbitrary rules you set for what you consider "a job". If it pays the bills, it's a job.
lol no its not arbritrary, there are labour/employment laws that put down definitions on what actually constitutes a "job" or "employment". Yes they are earning money but i highly doubt being a "streamer" is considered a "job" or lets you fall under protection of labour laws by any legal or technical means
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On October 21 2015 10:50 Jjjinyong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:40 Djzapz wrote:On October 21 2015 10:32 DCStarcraftGall wrote:On October 21 2015 10:22 Djzapz wrote:
I think that's ridiculous. There's a disconnect between professional games and streaming. Should Lance Armstrong be banned from buying broccoli at the supermarket? If the privately owned enterprise decides to let people continue something that arguably has nothing to do with competitive play, it's their choice.
It's funny how people have this mentality that someone caught doing something bad should be automatically shunned or even shamed in every area of life. He's banned from competitive play, if he wants to stream, let him stream, what even is the link...
And FYI I was extremely critical of YoDa and Gerrard in previous posts of mine, but there's no need to fucking hang them, how much blood do you need? No blood. YoDa has commited one of the worst sins a player can do and this time, unlike BW, there has been a harsh precedent. He knew what was coming. He wasn't too young. It is sad that he committed so much to ESports only to match fix all his records away, but that was his choice and now he must live with it. He should find some other job, that is not streaming on Afreeca. Have you thought about it? GSL, a premier class tournament being held right next to "YoDa's livestream- 10$ or more donation gets a funky dance from me"? Do you think a clean GSL can be held on a platform that allows every stream go online, even ones that promote matchfixing? This should have been a long time coming, in our opinion. None of that means anything. Let justice do its thing, let them pay for what they did. None of that means that they should be prevented from doing other random things. Like what else, you don't like YoDa because did something immoral around competitive play, so he should be forbidden from streaming, a platform which has nothing to do with competitive play or gambling, where he can't match fix? What else do you want for him, he shouldn't be able to have his own youtube channel either because that's bad. What about Twitch.tv? And what if the fucking guy wants a coffee or something, should we warn the coffee shops that we want this guy to be as miserable as possible? This is double jeopardy if I've ever seen it. People want revenge, not justice. It's childish and an emotional reaction. And what's that about GSL going on a "platform that promotes matchfixing". When did Afreeca promote matchfixing? By not jumping on the bandwagon that demonizes people? What's the problem with using the platform anyway? Like TV is a platform that has pornography and sexual violence on it, as well as other distasteful times. Should you be weary of that too because it's unclean? Get real, it's a platform. Did you even read the article? It says that Afreeca TV has made match fixing streams (Live matchfixing going on and people betting in chat) for a long time now. It's not a recent thing and has been a problem that Afreeca has been refusing to fix. The community also doesn't care about matchfixers living life, they just have problems with them using the game they tarnished as a tool. There are more things that are possible to do in life than gaming. Grow up. YoDa can get coffee anytime he wants. His life. So long as he doesn't come back to the scene, which Afreeca is now a scene because it hosts GSL. Twitch, a scene, saw the implications to allowing match fixers stream, hence banning match fixing streamers. Twitch has taken on the role of a hosting platform, whilst Afreeca still hides behind its curtain of "individual stream". If you host the GSL, its not individual anymore...
Did Afreeca partake in the match fixing or something? Or did it fall victim to match fixing happening under its banner, which it has no control over? And twitch hasn't crushed match fixing or anything like that, what has Twitch done? I'm not familiar with the story....
I know that Swag, Steel, Dazed and other CSGO players were accused of matchfixing, they were banned from attending some events by Valve, but those players still get to stream on twitch.tv.
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Bisutopia19268 Posts
On October 21 2015 11:00 kchany2 wrote:
You foreigners just dont care because you dont really care about starcraft.
Should these criminals be banned from buying groceries? Definetely not. Should these match fixers be ever banned from starcraft? Definetely so, u retards.
Let's take a look at other sports. If a soccer player is caught match fixing, he is not allowed to get jobs related to soccer ever again. He should find another job.
And these match fix streamers should at least not stream on starcraft. I hope all of you would be happy if a guy who commited a sexual crime stream playing around with teenage girls.
You get my point? It's not like we should kill match fixers. But they should at least be stopped from getting profits with starcraft, the very game he damaged so heavily.
You guys just don't care the fuck about this issue because you are living thousands of miles away and are not really related to all this stuff. Korean esports scene almost went on destruction the last time match fixing happened, and lot of hard-working people lost their job. It's totally fair for innocent people to be banned from the scene and criminals to stay on this scene to earn money, right???? I see your point^^
And don't tell me esports and streaming is different issue. I'll be pissed off to hell. They're fucking playing the same game and getting profits out of it. Like I've said, ex-soccer player caught match fixing is even banned from teaching soccer to kids or in anyway earn money with soccer. Oh, you really dont consider esports as sports, right? So be it. We Koreans DO want esports to be sports and wont allow it.
I understand why you are taking this as hard as you are. It is totally justifiable. But if any of your post is addressed at me, please understand that this isn't the first time this has happened to me as a fan of Starcraft. It's not. I had to watch Starcraft 1 get torn to shreds, piece by piece as match fixing scandals literally destroyed Starcraft 1. And it took half a decades worth of work in the foreign and Korean scene to piece it back together. So maybe its my experience of going through this once already, but I have a different level of anger, frustration, and approach to the match fixing this time compared to last time.
But let's take Hwasin for instance. This man match fixed and he was a very notable Terran. In fact 2007-2008 looked to be an emerging top Terran placing well in OSLs. His life was wrecked. He was just a damn kid who made a god awful decision. No I didn't forgive him for many years, and understandably many BW fans still don't. But justice took care of itself for him. Read the link below, his story, the outcome, and how he learned one of the hardest lessons he will learn in his life.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/426507-hwasin-apologizes-for-match-fixing
Yoda and B4 are idiots. They got caught up in the same thing. Money, youth, and stupidity. And they will unfortunately not be able to ever imagine the impact it will have on SC2 going forward. In SC1 estro, WeMadeFox, and MBC teams all shut down. Sponsors left very quickly and the pool of remaining sponsors dwindled until SC2 came out and became a saving grace for the Professional Starcraft scene. Of course we are praying to death this won't happen again. With the strength of Blizzard, Kespa, and the new LoTV hopefully the hype can push this very bad moment away really fast and legit players that we love can continue to compete.
So yes, I give a damn about the scene.And the first moment I learned Savior had the balls to get on Afreeca and stream for money I lost it. I was fueled by rage with many other SC1 fans. But you know what, you get past it. I don't expect you to stop being angry now and get past it any time soon. But one day you will understand where I'm coming. Savior has to spend every day training to be amazing in a game where he can never earn anything of real value (not money). Savior is Prometheus chained to a rock and will receive his punishment for a lifetime.
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Simply let people do the job, and all things would be fixed well. Who said that? Yes, it's Adam Smith's idea. Although this idea was revolutionary in 18th century, it is not in 21st century, I'm afraid.
Just don't watch the stream and they will stop that? Then why even bother catching them from match-fixing? They didn't really harm anyone until things got revealed. Wait. Why do we even need law? We can sort things out by ourselves.
HOW NAIVE
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HwaSln still doesn't recognize that what he has done is a serious crime. He is still betting on esports games and trying to sell his innosence his fans. AfreecaTV is not just a streaming platform. It's where next GSL seasons gonna be held. It is funny that GSL is gonna be streamed where ex-matchfixers are streaming.
And also, a lot of teenagers are watching BW streamings on Afreeca TV. They haven't experienced the time of Brood War, and just believe what those matchfixers are saying and think matchfixing isn't a big deal. Do you guys think that they will stop streaming if we don't watch their streams? No. Kids are going to watch their streams and let them earn money by perverting the truth.
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To people in all sports industries, Afreeca TV is known as the "hotspot of illegal bets". Afreeca TV allows many streams to be used as staging grounds for hosts of illegal betting sites. Would Afreeca TV have been oblivious to thi problem? Of course not. They have just followed their logic, "natural people" are allowed to stream without warning nor restriction. It will be easy to see, unless Afreeca TV fixes this age old mess, that future GSLs will continuously be corrupted.
I just wanted to point out this is pretty much flat out wrong lol the translators own biased opinions regarding afreeca are oozing out all over his post and his social justice attitude is not helping.
If you join an afreeca stream you are shown this image:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AAij2Jy.png)
rough translation: chatting/advertising about illegal betting will result in your ID and personal information being automatically notified to the cyber crime investigation unit.
now this hasn't always been there of course, and for a while the relay rooms that afreeca has were plagued with bots advertising illegal betting sites. but that doesn't mean afreeca hasn't tried to prevent it for a while, even like 3 years ago when I would try to watch baseball streamers on afreeca who were also advertising illegal gambling, admins would constantly crack down on and shut down these streams only to have more and more pop up nonstop. of course it's hard to prevent and maybe afreeca is not trying their best to stop it, but OP makes it sound like afreeca just turns a blind eye to it.
also regarding GSL, im pretty sure (not 100% correct me if im wrong) GOM was the one paying afreeca to have their stream there in HQ quality and advertisements about it plastered all over the front. If you launch their stream player when there was a GSL event on, guess what's the first promoted stream you see on the menu? GSL. that's up to who ever is running the tournament to stay away from afreeca. and if there are individual streamers trying to broadcast the game even though afreeca doesn't have the license too than admins try their best to crack down and shutdown these illegal streams.
I can't believe this biased bullshit of a post is on the front page of community news lol
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Bisutopia19268 Posts
On October 21 2015 11:28 jinyung2 wrote:Show nested quote +To people in all sports industries, Afreeca TV is known as the "hotspot of illegal bets". Afreeca TV allows many streams to be used as staging grounds for hosts of illegal betting sites. Would Afreeca TV have been oblivious to thi problem? Of course not. They have just followed their logic, "natural people" are allowed to stream without warning nor restriction. It will be easy to see, unless Afreeca TV fixes this age old mess, that future GSLs will continuously be corrupted.
I just wanted to point out this is pretty much flat out wrong lol the translators own biased opinions regarding afreeca are oozing out all over his post and his social justice attitude is not helping. If you join an afreeca stream you are shown this image: rough translation: chatting/advertising about illegal betting will result in your ID and personal information being automatically notified to the cyber crime investigation unit. now this hasn't always been there of course, and for a while the relay rooms that afreeca has were plagued with bots advertising illegal betting sites. but that doesn't mean afreeca hasn't tried to prevent it for a while, even like 3 years ago when I would try to watch baseball streamers on afreeca who were also advertising illegal gambling, admins would constantly crack down on and shut down these streams only to have more and more pop up nonstop. of course it's hard to prevent and maybe afreeca is not trying their best to stop it, but OP makes it sound like afreeca just turns a blind eye to it. also regarding GSL, im pretty sure (not 100% correct me if im wrong) GOM was the one paying afreeca to have their stream there in HQ quality and advertisements about it plastered all over the front. If you launch their stream player when there was a GSL event on, guess what's the first promoted stream you see on the menu? GSL. that's up to who ever is running the tournament to stay away from afreeca. and if there are individual streamers trying to broadcast the game even though afreeca doesn't have the license too than admins try their best to crack down and shutdown these illegal streams. I can't believe this biased bullshit of a post is on the front page of community news lol
Yes I too disagree with whoever news-ed this. That point on illegal betting is pure opinion and means nothing without evidence.
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yeah all i see here is a whole bunch of korean trolls trying to stir up unnecessary drama, and OP is obviously trying to advertise his forums through all these. how the OP wasn't already banned for blatant advertisement is beyond me.
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Bisutopia19268 Posts
On October 21 2015 10:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 10:32 BisuDagger wrote:
AfreecaTV has been allowing banned BW players to play for some time. They have the approach where let the law do it's justice and let afreeca users do their streaming. It's not afreecas job to deal punishment and they have every right to just stay out of it. Social justice warriors are bad for society. I may not be happy with Savior, but if the man was earning a living off afreeca in BW then that's his prerogative. After the law has done it's part, the sentencing is over. I've also held the same opinion up until the fact that afreeca themselves now not only host but run the GSL and that it hurts their integrity by allowing matchfixers to use their streaming service. that being said even if they do stream on afreeca, they should never be allowed to make money off of it.
Replied in the other thread but said I will concede to this point alone. If you are hosting GSL on your platform, it is justification to deny streamers who hurt your product so directly.
On October 21 2015 11:31 Probemicro wrote:
yeah all i see here is a whole bunch of korean trolls trying to stir up unnecessary drama, and OP is obviously trying to advertise his forums through all these. how the OP wasn't already banned for blatant advertisement is beyond me.
I think the OP has offered some good content and discussion in other threads. :D
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On October 21 2015 11:31 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:28 jinyung2 wrote:To people in all sports industries, Afreeca TV is known as the "hotspot of illegal bets". Afreeca TV allows many streams to be used as staging grounds for hosts of illegal betting sites. Would Afreeca TV have been oblivious to thi problem? Of course not. They have just followed their logic, "natural people" are allowed to stream without warning nor restriction. It will be easy to see, unless Afreeca TV fixes this age old mess, that future GSLs will continuously be corrupted.
I just wanted to point out this is pretty much flat out wrong lol the translators own biased opinions regarding afreeca are oozing out all over his post and his social justice attitude is not helping. If you join an afreeca stream you are shown this image: rough translation: chatting/advertising about illegal betting will result in your ID and personal information being automatically notified to the cyber crime investigation unit. now this hasn't always been there of course, and for a while the relay rooms that afreeca has were plagued with bots advertising illegal betting sites. but that doesn't mean afreeca hasn't tried to prevent it for a while, even like 3 years ago when I would try to watch baseball streamers on afreeca who were also advertising illegal gambling, admins would constantly crack down on and shut down these streams only to have more and more pop up nonstop. of course it's hard to prevent and maybe afreeca is not trying their best to stop it, but OP makes it sound like afreeca just turns a blind eye to it. also regarding GSL, im pretty sure (not 100% correct me if im wrong) GOM was the one paying afreeca to have their stream there in HQ quality and advertisements about it plastered all over the front. If you launch their stream player when there was a GSL event on, guess what's the first promoted stream you see on the menu? GSL. that's up to who ever is running the tournament to stay away from afreeca. and if there are individual streamers trying to broadcast the game even though afreeca doesn't have the license too than admins try their best to crack down and shutdown these illegal streams. I can't believe this biased bullshit of a post is on the front page of community news lol Yes I too disagree with whoever news-ed this. That point on illegal betting is pure opinion and means nothing without evidence.
OP just translated the article... just went and read it through. Would be more biased if he went and corrected mistakes in the articles to make it look perfect. Also, Afreeca is still a hotspot for matchfixing. It's still blatant. Also, in major games like WCS there are still illegal betters in twitch chat. many Korean chats are from illegal betters and people telling them to fuck off
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On October 21 2015 11:28 jinyung2 wrote:
also regarding GSL, im pretty sure (not 100% correct me if im wrong) GOM was the one paying afreeca to have their stream there in HQ quality and advertisements about it plastered all over the front. If you launch their stream player when there was a GSL event on, guess what's the first promoted stream you see on the menu? GSL. that's up to who ever is running the tournament to stay away from afreeca.
Afreeca owns the GOM studio:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/491422-afreeca-tv-acquires-gomexp-studio
And as of next year will be hosting GSL, having acquired the rights with GOM eXP being shut down.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/495974-gom-exp-shutting-down
"Whoever is running the tournament"? That is going to be Afreeca itself. That's why this is so messed up. It shouldn't be the case that a company is simultaneously hosting the biggest tournament in Starcraft 2 AND welcoming matchfixers onto their platform.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
I thought the only matchfixer left streaming on Afreeca was Hwasin?
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EPT
