|
On August 06 2015 23:19 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 22:36 mishimaBeef wrote:On August 06 2015 21:21 Castor385 wrote:
I would really like to see some actual testing data, instead of hours and hours of theory crafting. I agree. What do you want to test? Changing this solves no particular problem. It just changes the core of the game. To test something you need to be able to look at the results and try to get some information from that. I don't see what we would be looking for. It's a change you either agree with or don't.
This is can be done by listing all/top x of the negatives and positives described here, play a few 100 games and see which changes actually happened. One might easily overlook side effects or dramatise something which is actually no big deal.
|
600 average unspent ressources and you don't think I (or my opponents) ever miss scv rounds? I'm not saying ANYTIME something happens they forget scvs, I'm saying it happens.
I am still waiting for the 30 seconds in a row. If huge macro mistakes happened frequently against master terrans, you shouldn't have a problem finding some examples.
Happy stops producing scvs for no reason (other than reaper harass) between:
Happy has always been bad at producing scvs. Not a very good example of a typical pro gamer. I remember Thorzain at HSC "mocking" him over it during his casts.
But even then, the 1.5 less scvs he missed responds to less than 5% less income in the future. So if we assume Happy is in bottom tier of pro gamer macro, the difference between him and top macro players is 5%. That's not a very big deal compared to the imporance of unit control.
The point is that macro is more aboout getting reasonable good/solid at it, and once you reach a critical minium level, any further progress isn't as significant.
But that's exactly why the design of macro in Sc2 is terrible because it then becomes something that adds to the skillflor and not the skillceiling.
|
I want to look at endgame situations for zerg once again. While p and t have finnished with their supply and production building creation and can focus solely on fights zerg has to both keep the creep spread up and supply 5, 6 or even more hatcheries with larva which is keeping him off the actual tasks.
This does lower the quality of games alot I believe at the end of games. Just spreading creep is enough to keep zerg busy and leave enough time for the other visible tasks.
|
While p and t have finnished with their supply and production building creation and can focus solely on fights zerg has to both keep the creep spread and supply 5, 6 or even more hatcheries with larva which is keeping him off the actual tasks.
You don't need to inject anywhere near constantly when you have 5+ hatches.
|
On August 07 2015 15:44 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +While p and t have finnished with their supply and production building creation and can focus solely on fights zerg has to both keep the creep spread and supply 5, 6 or even more hatcheries with larva which is keeping him off the actual tasks. You don't need to inject anywhere near constantly when you have 5+ hatches.
Lets change this into: Players don't inject near as constantly when they have 5+ hatches.
Simply for the reason that it is hardly possible to do so while spreading creep and managing a 200/200 army in fights.
This is a reason that makes games more volatile and watchers not understand why e.g. a zerg loses a game after a pretty even or slightly disadvantagous 200 vs 200 fight if they can't see that he was on low larva.
|
On August 07 2015 15:35 Hider wrote:
Happy has always been bad at producing scvs. Not a very good example of a typical pro gamer. I remember Thorzain at HSC "mocking" him over it during his casts.
Wait what? A pro gamer can't even produce scvs properly around the 5 minute mark? Clearly the macro is not as easy as what people make it out to be. What happens when the game gets into the mid-game and the multitasking *really* ramps up? Probably many macro slips that go unnoticed because *holding down the a-button is easy*.
|
Lets change this into: Players don't inject near as constantly when they have 5+ hatches.
No it's because you literrally don't need to. You just need to have enough production. What's the benefit of having 50+ idle larva?
Wait what? A pro gamer can't even produce scvs properly around the 5 minute mark? Clearly the macro is not as easy as what people make it out to be. What happens when the game gets into the mid-game and the multitasking *really* ramps up? Probably many macro slips that go unnoticed because *holding down the a-button is easy*.
Then scv production doesn't matter, and you just need to keep your average unspent down. Happy does that almost as good as everyone. Just look at actual games and notice how low the average unspent is consistently. The differences are marginal and especially as the game progresses, small macro discrepancies become less and less influential on the outcome of the game.
|
Bro, nobody macros perfect.
Also I don't buy "scv doesn't matter then"... if macro is *so easy*, then should be no problem to squeeze out *every possible advantage*.
---
*APM is Finite* - you can't simultaneously build units, and move units, and build gases at new base, and drop your opponent, and micro a battle... it just doesn't work no matter how *easy* you think the UI is, the fact of the matter is when you compress the analysis down to a minute (an instant or a point of time, a very short time) time scale, you must make choices how to spend actions.
---
Also, all the macro boosters make the power balance throughout the game confusing. For the longest time I tried to justify in my own mind that somehow Terran is balanced around having 400+% mining power in the late game... but I think it's time we just scrapped these power surge macro boosters and focused on core balance and how to make the game play better and better.
|
Bro, nobody macros perfect.
What is that type of strawman? Reread my comments and you see that I consistently have written that the small macro assymetries barely matter (not that everyone macros perfectly).
We just saw that with Happy. Probably worst current pro macro player, and he "suffers" from a disadvantage of 5% less income..... That's not significant.
A low skillcap of a certain element in the game does not imply that you cannot get better at that. Rather it implies that any type of further progression isn't very impactful.
Also I don't buy "scv doesn't matter then"... if macro is *so easy*, then should be no problem to squeeze out *every possible advantage*.
Scv production doesn't matter in the later stages of the game (that's what I implied by "then" given the context).
Early game, ofc a 5% extra income is good, but it's - in the bigger picture - a marginal advantage, and this isn't the difference between your average good pro macro player and great macro player. It's the difference between a bottom tier macro player and perfect macro.
|
On August 07 2015 20:57 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Wait what? A pro gamer can't even produce scvs properly around the 5 minute mark? Clearly the macro is not as easy as what people make it out to be. What happens when the game gets into the mid-game and the multitasking *really* ramps up? Probably many macro slips that go unnoticed because *holding down the a-button is easy*. Then scv production doesn't matter, and you just need to keep your average unspent down. Happy does that almost as good as everyone. Serisouly just look at actual games and notice how low the average unspent is consistently.
SCV production does matter. Average unspent resources is only a good indicator if you actually have sufficient income. If your unspent resources is a lot, you are likely not macroing well, but if it is low you can still be bad.
If you have very little income and you spend it all instantly, your macro is worse than if you had 1.5 times the income but floated a constant 500 minerals.
This is not to say that Happy's macro is bad, because I'm sure it is not, but not making SCVs early in the game is usually a mistake.
|
On August 07 2015 21:23 Hider wrote:What is that type of strawman? Reread my comments and you see that I consistently have written that the small macro assymetries barely matter. We just saw that with Happy. Probably worst current pro macro player, and he "suffers" from a disadvantage of 5% less income..... That's not significant. A low skillcap of a certain element in the game does not imply that you cannot get better at that. Rather it implies that any type of further progression isn't very impactful.
Forget about that example. What happens when the game transitions into the management style mid-late game? Is the macro perfect then? Is the micro perfect? Answer is no.
5% here, 5% there ... suddenly pro has an advantage. Pro will always fit in more actions than lower level player. And even pro is not macro'ing perfect throughout the game.
|
SCV production does matter.
Not post early game since you there will have 60+ workers anyway (which was what I responded too). And assuming no excessive queing, average unspent is a very good indicator of macro skills. And pro macro players barely que (again the diferences here are in the small percentages).
|
60+ workers? I could have sworn the example we were discussing was around the 5 minute mark.
Also you claim that 5% advantage at 5 minutes is insignificant then? I also ask how many opportunities for 5% advantage exist and are missed in a game?
|
Forget about that example. What happens when the game transitions into the management style mid-late game? Is the macro perfect then? Is the micro perfect? Answer is no.
If macro was a huge factor later in the game, then we would see much higher average unspent. E.g. pro players would frequently have 1k+ average unspent. But when on a great macro player has 240 average unspent and a bad pro macro player has 280 average unspent... that's a very marginal advantage.
|
*APM is Finite* - you can't simultaneously build units, and move units, and build gases at new base, and drop your opponent, and micro a battle... it just doesn't work no matter how *easy* you think the UI is, the fact of the matter is when you compress the analysis down to a minute (an instant or a point of time, a very short time) time scale, you must make choices how to spend actions. Removing macro boosters doesn't change that.
---
Also, all the macro boosters make the power balance throughout the game confusing. For the longest time I tried to justify in my own mind that somehow Terran (as one example) is balanced around having 400+% mining power in the late game... but I think it's time we just scrapped these power surge macro boosters and focused on core balance and how to make the game play better and better.
---
Also you claim that 5% advantage at 5 minutes is insignificant then? I also ask how many opportunities for 5% advantage exist and are missed in a game?
---
Have you a reply to the above points?
|
On August 07 2015 15:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +600 average unspent ressources and you don't think I (or my opponents) ever miss scv rounds? I'm not saying ANYTIME something happens they forget scvs, I'm saying it happens. I am still waiting for the 30 seconds in a row. If huge macro mistakes happened frequently against master terrans, you shouldn't have a problem finding some examples. Show nested quote +Happy stops producing scvs for no reason (other than reaper harass) between: Happy has always been bad at producing scvs. Not a very good example of a typical pro gamer. I remember Thorzain at HSC "mocking" him over it during his casts. But even then, the 1.5 less scvs he missed responds to less than 5% less income in the future. So if we assume Happy is in bottom tier of pro gamer macro, the difference between him and top macro players is 5%. That's not a very big deal compared to the imporance of unit control. The point is that macro is more aboout getting reasonable good/solid at it, and once you reach a critical minium level, any further progress isn't as significant. But that's exactly why the design of macro in Sc2 is terrible because it then becomes something that adds to the skillflor and not the skillceiling.
If you hadn't been making serious contributions to this thread previous to that, I'd think you're trolling.
I keep saying I enjoy strategy over repetitive tasks. Do you think I feel like watching my own replays staring at the scv production just to prove a point that's completely obvious to (I hope) everyone else? Already did that for that Happy game, and it turned out I couldn't pay attention to anything else. Not fun.
The very first game I watch (picked a non korean TvT), I find Happy forgetting scv production for 10 seconds three times before 30 supply. Granted he's not the most mechanically sound pro out there but he's still infinitely better than I am. Why do you not believe I can miss scvs for 30 seconds? If I say 20 seconds instead, are you ok with it? Cause it doesn't change anything to my previous argument. Yes, missing scv production for 20 seconds is a huge deal.
Let's say I forget even just one scv (17 seconds) at 20 supply. It's going to take more or less (depending on when you get your 3rd CC) 5 minutes to get to maximum 3base saturation (it would take 46*17/60/2 = 6.5 minutes producing the remaining 46 scvs on 2 CCs). You're missing on one scv the whole time, that would be mining 40-45 minerals per minute so you're down more than 200 minerals by that time.
In the case of Happy he was down 700 minerals. Not a big deal right?
I don't even care about the macro vs micro debate which this argument was about. What I care about is making the game more strategic.
|
|
|
Right now I'm watching Bbyong v Life G2 and he is totally not getting the gases in his corner bases for a considerable time... that's a pretty big deal no? #perfectMacroWithoutMacroBoosters
|
I think this is mostly right. I do think there is something to reducing the overall strength of macro mechanics, which would both slow down economy expansion and perhaps also reduce skill disparities at the very lowest level of the game. But I am very, very much opposed to removing the macro mechanics altogether.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
