EPTWell that isn't even in the question for blizzard, they just want to cut macro mechanics.
So you do agree that by doing this nothing too important will change considering action and multitasking cause there won't be a huge redesign?
The Curious Case of soO's Macro Mechanics - Page 23
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Well that isn't even in the question for blizzard, they just want to cut macro mechanics. So you do agree that by doing this nothing too important will change considering action and multitasking cause there won't be a huge redesign? | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
This shouldn't affect any notion of macro since the only difficulty in macro (assuming you know your builds/timings down pat) is multitasking. If anything this should make multitasking (and consequently macro) harder as you now have to play a 2 player read-react game (with surprises) instead of a 1 player rhythm game (with no surprises). Now we can truly appreciate those that dare to play a spread out macro game. Instead of a tight, I'm good at mini-rhythm game, macro game. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
You think there would be more engagements cause of it? More drops? I don't believe that there would be more action at all, cause the design of sc2 doesn't allow it in most cases. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Cutting some macro mechanics won't give you double the apm. I guess you wanna cut any apm required to macro alltogether then? And even in archon mode you sometimes simply cannot do more cause sc2 simply doesn't allow it very well. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
And I don't buy the argument that 'sc2 doesn't allow it'. This is easily refuted by observing the evolution of strategy and tactics throughout SC2. I've been around wince WoL beta and it has been a slow but forward moving process - players will find the tactical shots available without sacrificing solid play. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
Leave it to Blizzard to freely interpret micro as macro. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
I don't know, maybe cause it's a ridiculous example? Archon mode doesn't double the action on the map, why should a tiny increase in effective "battle" apm increase action at all then? Where are these 2 drops coming from? It's pretty simple if you ask me. If we had a game where you had to expand all over the map very fast, thus forcing the players to defend these expansions, then yes i would also enjoy a game where every single apm you have is used for actual micro management of your units. Sc2 isn't designed like that though, you have a very limited amount of area to defend most of the time. So no, the apm i now use to inject my hatcheries won't suddenly be used to harass with my zerglings, cause well i simply cannot do it cause there is a wall and units at the natural base. I simply don't see how such a small apm change would create better gameplay with the current version of sc2. But hey maybe i am completely biased cause i still think that there actually should be MORE mechanical checks in sc2 regarding macro + more options to micro (with more potential reward) | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada951 Posts
That being said the macro mechanics are interesting and should still be in the game, just make them give a less dramatic effect on the game (ie less chrono energy, larva etc) | ||
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nTzzzz
France30 Posts
On August 07 2015 04:02 LaLuSh wrote: Yes nTzzz, I too want to play in Barcelona FC alongside Lionel Messi. But it's so unfair that I have to train 12 hours a day for years repeating mindless exercises over and over in order to stand a chance at being a superstar in a sport. Maybe I should write a letter to the game designers of football and complain? I cannot admire the best players in the world because of this. That they train hours EVERY day makes me think less of them. The fact that the main predictive factors for being awesome at football are being young and having worked your ass off for years since your youth, repeating the same mindless tasks over; that actually makes me lose my respect for the stars. If only someone could find the magical balance, the perfect relationship, between time spent and mastery. Surely if one practices something for one hour a day they should be able to execute it perfectly? Now that would be my ideal sport or art form. That's why I personally buy tickets to average-piano-player#159286's concertos instead of supporting the mindless practice robots that make up the professional pianists establishment. It's a shame that I'm alone in attending these concerts. The general public lack the appreciation for true musicality. They cannot see beyond the mistakes like I can. If only I could redesign the piano so everybody could execute every piece. That way we could decide which musician truly is the most musical and artistic. In my opinion music should be about expression, not technique. Technique should not be so overwhelming that it accounts for 90% of your skill. So much distortion of what I am saying I don't know where to start. How about having a real, logic based discussion about what's important to each of us in SC2 and then seeing how those things are affected by the proposed change and the other alternatives we can come up with? First you're working under the assumption that I want to be part of the greats and I have absolutely no interest in that. What I want is: 1) to get more enjoyment out of the game. For me that requires more strategy and less repetitive stuff. 2) to be able to be in awe of the top players. For me that requires that the pro level skillset include more strategy. I'm not saying I think less of them because they've had to practise mindless actions 12 hours a day for years, I'm saying I need something else on top of that: a lot of thinking. 3) that players on all levels are able to enjoy the strategic aspects of SC2. Notice that it doesn't necessarily require reducing the skill ceiling (since I'm starting to understand a lot of you mostly care about the game being insanely difficult mechanically). We could just make missing things like injects less punishing so that focusing on something else than macro with a low APM is actually viable. As a bonus, it would make the game less frustrating for lower level players, all for the greater success of SC2. I myself would really enjoy playing again with my friends who have all quit for that very reason. The comparison with soccer doesn't really work. Most importantly the logic behind it is flawed because we couldn't make football less technical even if we wanted to, whereas changes to macro boosters are easy to implement. Another reason is that the fact I don't find football very strategic is precisely why I don't watch it. SC2 is supposed to be a strategy game and that's a big part of why I like it. And as I said, I don't think less of players because they've had to work their ass off, I just need something else on top of that. Same flawed reasoning for piano. If we had a way to make it less difficult for pianists to deliver great music, wouldn't we want to do it? Or would you instantly think piano music is for the plebs and totally sucks if it gets easier? The reason I like piano is not because I know it's incredibly difficult but because the music is beautiful. It just happens to be very difficult. You also conveniently ignore the fact that it takes a great deal of other things than technical skills to be a great pianist. I would know, my dad happens to be one and to conduct orchestras for a living. Comparatively to other pianists, Glenn Gould was pretty bad technically, what made him great is he was a thinker and had an artistic vision. Please, no more bad comparisons. You're better than this. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On August 07 2015 05:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: Why i fixate on you giving an example which theoretically improves your apm by 100% to "prove" that cutting macro mechanics will lead to more action? I don't know, maybe cause it's a ridiculous example? Archon mode doesn't double the action on the map, why should a tiny increase in effective "battle" apm increase action at all then? Where are these 2 drops coming from? It's pretty simple if you ask me. If we had a game where you had to expand all over the map very fast, thus forcing the players to defend these expansions, then yes i would also enjoy a game where every single apm you have is used for actual micro management of your units. Sc2 isn't designed like that though, you have a very limited amount of area to defend most of the time. So no, the apm i now use to inject my hatcheries won't suddenly be used to harass with my zerglings, cause well i simply cannot do it cause there is a wall and units at the natural base. I simply don't see how such a small apm change would create better gameplay with the current version of sc2. But hey maybe i am completely biased cause i still think that there actually should be MORE mechanical checks in sc2 regarding macro + more options to micro (with more potential reward) I'm not *proving* anything, merely poking holes in your argument: On August 07 2015 04:59 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't believe that there would be more action at all, cause the design of sc2 doesn't allow it in most cases. Also LotV has more of this: On August 07 2015 05:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: If we had a game where you had to expand all over the map very fast, thus forcing the players to defend these expansions... And less of this: On August 07 2015 05:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: you have a very limited amount of area to defend most of the time | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
Yes, I frequently get matched up against terrans who forget to build scvs for 30 seconds when something happens on the map. I would like to see a replays of this happening (in the phase of the game where worker count is very relevant). | ||
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MaximilianKohler
122 Posts
Broodwar, Starcraft Improved, and Starbow all have nerfed macro mechanics. And none of the accusations you made in OP occur in these games. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite of what you suggest. The fact that you don't think it's important for a game to be fun to play pretty much shows how asinine your whole argument is. It would be extremely easy to make an extremely hard game that's much harder than SC2. But probably no one would play it. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On August 07 2015 04:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: So you want to make sc2 into wc4? Well that isn't even in the question for blizzard, they just want to cut macro mechanics. So you do agree that by doing this nothing too important will change considering action and multitasking cause there won't be a huge redesign? No I did not say they level up... heck it makes sense for each race to have a behind-enemy-lines harassing commander. Then we will see who can multitask (in an interactive way). Yeah I see it now... they start in a locked state, and after X minutes they unlock. Don't ask me for more stats, figure it out. But no... 'hero units' have no place in starcraft. And macro has to be a single player rhythm game in your base, long live brood war I guess. I enjoyed the rhythm of macro in brood war, click z, click z click z, click d click d click d w/e yeah it was fun, it was rhythmic. But... I want to see the height of high intensity, strategic starcraft. APM is finite. I know it's nice to talk about holding down the a-button, but you can't do even that when the banelings roll in. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada951 Posts
On August 07 2015 07:17 mishimaBeef wrote: No I did not say they level up... heck it makes sense for each race to have a behind-enemy-lines harassing commander. Then we will see who can multitask (in an interactive way). Yeah I see it now... they start in a locked state, and after X minutes they unlock. Don't ask me for more stats, figure it out. But no... 'hero units' have no place in starcraft. And macro has to be a single player rhythm game in your base, long live brood war I guess. I enjoyed the rhythm of macro in brood war, click z, click z click z, click d click d click d w/e yeah it was fun, it was rhythmic. But... I want to see the height of high intensity, strategic starcraft. APM is finite. I know it's nice to talk about holding down the a-button, but you can't do even that when the banelings roll in. No. Go ask for WC4 instead | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
There is something good in my post, I'm sorry you missed it (apparently you don't want high intensity strategic starcraft as long as it's mechanically hard and the generals are walking around with a hundred pound ball chained to their leg). --- For emphasis I will repeat the best part (with a slight edit): I want to see the height of high intensity, strategic starcraft. APM is finite. I know it's nice to talk about how holding down the a-button is so easy, but you can't do even that when the banelings roll in. --- Also, in case people in this thread aren't looking at the other one, I think this is a good post summarizing some key considerations as to why macro booster cut may be a good thing (less luck = more skill): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/491742-new-macro-good?page=5#88 | ||
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nTzzzz
France30 Posts
On August 07 2015 06:09 Hider wrote: I would like to see a replays of this happening (in the phase of the game where worker count is very relevant). 600 average unspent ressources and you don't think I (or my opponents) ever miss scv rounds? I'm not saying ANYTIME something happens they forget scvs, I'm saying it happens. Even pros sometimes do. I'm not going to spend time watching my own crappy replays but you can watch game 1 of Happy vs Heromarine from today, which you can find here (starts at 2h25) http://www.twitch.tv/esl_sc2/v/9892484 Happy stops producing scvs for no reason (other than reaper harass) between: 4:14 and 4:21 4:37 and 4:48 5:57 and 6:06 That's already 1.5 scv behind on bad macro alone, all on one CC and less than 30 supply. Then on 2 CCs he's supply blocked at 38 supply from 6:44 to 7:07 and misses on two more scvs. That's 3.5 scvs behind at 38 supply. Should I go on? | ||
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