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On July 28 2015 20:44 Sbuiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 20:12 Skynx wrote:On July 27 2015 20:27 BisuDagger wrote:
Cover the minimap too! I make all my winnings off guessing spawn locations. Well played No it isn't a good point. It's simple: the whole change is about players being unable to secretly 'feed' bets. Players can't influence starting positions, and therefore there's no need to hide them.
I doubt that kespa is going to fight every instance of illegal gambling. That's a task for the broader government and police, and they've been dealing with it for years. Most likely, kespa is attempting to attack bets that influence gameplay. If people bet on spawning locations, at least it doesn't tamper with the integrity of competitipn
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On July 28 2015 09:38 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 09:33 varsovie wrote:
It's not like I can see proleague's minimap or time at the highest free english quality anyway. i just watch the vods a few hours later in HD when it's not, you know... the middle of the night... so yeah
Proleague has free source quality for anyone, on azubuTV, do your research before claiming false t hings.
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On July 28 2015 21:58 aRyuujin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 20:44 Sbuiko wrote:On July 28 2015 20:12 Skynx wrote:On July 27 2015 20:27 BisuDagger wrote:
Cover the minimap too! I make all my winnings off guessing spawn locations. Well played No it isn't a good point. It's simple: the whole change is about players being unable to secretly 'feed' bets. Players can't influence starting positions, and therefore there's no need to hide them. I doubt that kespa is going to fight every instance of illegal gambling. That's a task for the broader government and police, and they've been dealing with it for years. Most likely, kespa is attempting to attack bets that influence gameplay. If people bet on spawning locations, at least it doesn't tamper with the integrity of competitipn
This is an important point, gambling only negatively affects the e-sports community when the players are participating in match fixing of any sort (including leaking builds to help people bet on 'props' like when the game will end, will a broodlord be built in the match, or whatever else). Having people bet on whether Stats or Classic spawns in the north or south location on the map or whatever is irrelevant, as the players have no control over that and the betting can't be rigged for profit at the expense of game integrity. Betting on whether the match goes over/under 11 minutes though is awful, as the players can alter their builds at the expense of game integrity to affect the outcomes and influence the bets in exchange for kickbacks, and there will always be a small percentage of any group who do the wrong thing when offered money to do it, especially when they are struggling financially.
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On July 28 2015 23:13 Swoopae wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 21:58 aRyuujin wrote:On July 28 2015 20:44 Sbuiko wrote:On July 28 2015 20:12 Skynx wrote:On July 27 2015 20:27 BisuDagger wrote:
Cover the minimap too! I make all my winnings off guessing spawn locations. Well played No it isn't a good point. It's simple: the whole change is about players being unable to secretly 'feed' bets. Players can't influence starting positions, and therefore there's no need to hide them. I doubt that kespa is going to fight every instance of illegal gambling. That's a task for the broader government and police, and they've been dealing with it for years. Most likely, kespa is attempting to attack bets that influence gameplay. If people bet on spawning locations, at least it doesn't tamper with the integrity of competitipn This is an important point, gambling only negatively affects the e-sports community when the players are participating in match fixing of any sort (including leaking builds to help people bet on 'props' like when the game will end, will a broodlord be built in the match, or whatever else). Having people bet on whether Stats or Classic spawns in the north or south location on the map or whatever is irrelevant, as the players have no control over that and the betting can't be rigged for profit at the expense of game integrity
Man he wasn't serious lol
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On July 28 2015 23:15 Skynx wrote:
Man he wasn't serious lol
I miss things sometimes, lol - I got some pretty ridiculous responses in the thread when I first suggested that a match was fixed, people dismissing strong mathematical evidence as 'irrelevant' etc.
A lot of people in the gaming community have no idea how sports betting/gambling works, and I happen to have expertise in that area and the more people that are educated about such matters the easier it is for the esports community to protect itself through implementing policies that discourage match fixing/any other actions that affect game integrity
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On July 28 2015 15:37 Swoopae wrote:
Positive step to counter-act match fixing, doesn't detract from the viewing experience and the harder we can make it for match fixers the better - players throwing matches we can detect through line movement + observation, length of game props just mean a player will go all in or macro depending on the outcome that was bet on, but is still terrible for the integrity of esports so this is a step in the right direction to stamp that out by making it difficult for the illegal bookies to offer/grade the 'prop' type bets.
The next step is permanent bans for players caught match fixing, and thorough investigations into both the cases that have taken place (mostly the ones a few months ago in proleague/kespa cup/starleague) and any future cases that occur
I've noticed the teams have stopped fielding San and Marineking who were involved in some of the more blatant fixed matches, and Super seems to have mostly disappeared as has Soulkey recently, but others who were involved in blatantly suspicious matches/line movements remain playing in proleague *cough* Yoda (and Inno/B4 were also in suspicious matches, not sure who else off the top of my head would have to check the old threads)
Huh, the first time I disagree with something about this topic with you Swoopae, I believe. This isn't the first step to anything. Even if this stops some very specific time related forms of betting (doubt it) it won't stop others.
Yes players should be punished when caught match fixing, but this silly thing is just annoying to some who like to know exact timings and will not get any player caught or punished. It will do nothing (positive).
I'm not "attacking" (I actually do not care too much) this decision because I miss the clock so much but I'm allergic to these kind of fake, "false sense of security" like decisions that only look like they're doing something when, in reality, they solve nothing. Either KeSPA actually believes in this which would make them naive, or it's just a pr thing to, again, make it look like they're doing something (which does not mean that they aren't in other ways).
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United Kingdom20341 Posts
doesn't detract from the viewing experience
...
Am i the only one around here that watches sc2 with notepad open?
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On July 28 2015 05:55 Caihead wrote:
Seems to me like the progamers would be minimally affected since they would be analyzing replays and practicing with partners where the vod timer wouldn't be an issue. I don't see that part of the discussion at all.
Foreign pros do watch PL. In fact players like Huk have stated in the past they exclusively watch PL and other koreans events to steal builds. As far as I know PL doesn't give out the replays?
This is just really bad for anyone who watches PL with even the slightest desire to learn. It is not acceptable to ruin the viewer experience to combat illegal gambling. Especially when they haven't even banned anyone yet.
-base timings
-speed time (I calculate this every zvz I play).
-supply @ x time
-push timings (upgrade timings, dts, banshee, mine drop etc).
-max timings
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And the hardest part
Was letting go, not taking part
Was the hardest part
And the strangest thing
Was waiting for that bell to ring
It was the strangest start
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On July 29 2015 09:44 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 05:55 Caihead wrote:
Seems to me like the progamers would be minimally affected since they would be analyzing replays and practicing with partners where the vod timer wouldn't be an issue. I don't see that part of the discussion at all. Foreign pros do watch PL. In fact players like Huk have stated in the past they exclusively watch PL and other koreans events to steal builds. As far as I know PL doesn't give out the replays? This is just really bad for anyone who watches PL with even the slightest desire to learn. It is not acceptable to ruin the viewer experience to combat illegal gambling. Especially when they haven't even banned anyone yet. -base timings -speed time (I calculate this every zvz I play). -supply @ x time -push timings (upgrade timings, dts, banshee, mine drop etc). -max timings
I agree with you.
It's really annoying watching PL, wondering what the game time is, and then seeing that little blank box. I like game time for all the reasons you just listed. Fighting matchfixing is important, but this is not the way to go about it.
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10387 Posts
next season: SC2 removed from Proleague to stop illegal gambling
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This sucks for me, I really enjoyed noting what time certain things happened at  but it's understandable I guess
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Sounds like utter bullshit to me...
They are only doing this so we can't easily figure out the timings of the pro players builds
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lol @ all the bitching and whining.
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On July 28 2015 05:29 ZAiNs wrote:
Oh ok. So if you tune into Proleague during its on and you see its just slightly past 9 minutes and Protoss is just pushing out vs. Zerg with 3 Immortals and a handful of Sentries you can say almost for sure that the Protoss did a FE into ~5:45-6:00 Robo without any or at least minimal pressure all game. Looking at the supply of the Zerg at 9 minutes you can also get a rough idea about their opening (i.e., 3 Hatch before Pool or Speedling) and what sort of light pressure occurred earlier in the game. Without a game timer you can assume so much less about the current game-state and as an educated viewer you know so much less about what has happened in the game so far.
Also, tell me what's useful to a player. Knowing roughly (thanks to 'feeling & experience') the earliest times a DT can be warped in given an opponent's opening, or knowing exactly give or take a couple of seconds?
Doesnt matter about the couple of seconds. You should know/feel when your opponent (cheese or timing attack or early push or whatever) is coming by own feeling and experience (worked in all rts games I played) and not by watching the clock.
I am sure that we all are scouting alot more if we play without the clock. The clock reveals too much (on both sides).
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Good thing I bet on supply count before X tech finishes. I'll stop when they cover supply and production tabs.
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This is such a silly way to attempt to try and battle "illegal gambling".
Firstly, it negatively impacts the viewer. If we're being realistic, it probably wont be the BIGGEST deal, but still annoying. Secondly, how much betting does this really stop? You can still do bets like how many CC's will be built, or whether how much of something will be built, will one of the players get maxed in the game, do things w.r.t. the suppy, etc.
And like others said, it will be a bit of a hassle, but they are able to setup their own timers too.
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This is so stupid.... those who really want, will find a way around it. Like.... get a replay perhaps? Or will they stop publishing all replays too?
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On July 29 2015 17:21 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 05:29 ZAiNs wrote:
Oh ok. So if you tune into Proleague during its on and you see its just slightly past 9 minutes and Protoss is just pushing out vs. Zerg with 3 Immortals and a handful of Sentries you can say almost for sure that the Protoss did a FE into ~5:45-6:00 Robo without any or at least minimal pressure all game. Looking at the supply of the Zerg at 9 minutes you can also get a rough idea about their opening (i.e., 3 Hatch before Pool or Speedling) and what sort of light pressure occurred earlier in the game. Without a game timer you can assume so much less about the current game-state and as an educated viewer you know so much less about what has happened in the game so far.
Also, tell me what's useful to a player. Knowing roughly (thanks to 'feeling & experience') the earliest times a DT can be warped in given an opponent's opening, or knowing exactly give or take a couple of seconds? Doesnt matter about the couple of seconds. You should know/feel when your opponent (cheese or timing attack or early push or whatever) is coming by own feeling and experience (worked in all rts games I played) and not by watching the clock. I am sure that we all are scouting alot more if we play without the clock. The clock reveals too much (on both sides).
A couple of seconds matters when an Oracle flies into your base. Even pro-level starsense isn't as good as looking at the clock. And how about when you are Forcefielding your ramp vs DTs/4 Gate in PvP and you want the Forcefields to overlap as little as possible? Use starsense, count 10 Blizzard seconds in your head, or just look at the clock? Do you also keep looking at your army to see if the Photon Overcharge range indicator is still there?
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On July 28 2015 17:44 lichter wrote:
people who think bookies and bettors are going to rely on stopwatches as a long term solution really don't understand gambling yeesh
Meh they'll get other landmarks. Will they disable supply count next?
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EPT
