Game clock removed from Proleague due to gambling

On July 27 2015 20:50 graNite wrote:


what does the removal of the ingame clock change then?

On July 27 2015 21:20 Jathin wrote:
The change does nothing to affect the core problem: illegal gambling. Gamblers will simply adapt their bets to another aspect of the game. Kind of silly change imo.

On July 27 2015 21:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
As i already said in the LR thread, this changes probably nothing (or VERY VERY little)
But hey it's something i guess
Viewers don't need the clock, so it doesn't matter anways

On July 27 2015 20:05 Waxangel wrote:


right but you can't exactly go to your bookie and say "I won the bet according to MY MEASUREMENTS AT HOME WHICH ARE WAY MORE ACCURATE THAN YOURS"

On July 27 2015 22:46 FFW_Rude wrote:
Also keep in my mind. It's BLIZZARD TIME (because HotS). Not actual seconds so you can't compare to the vods.

On July 27 2015 22:22 JabuSeika wrote:


But I pay a ton of attention to the clock.

Gas Timings, 3rd Timings, attack timings, ect.

The clock matters in understanding strategies.

On July 27 2015 23:10 Simberto wrote:


Are people really that bad at maths that they can't just use the 0.72 multiplier?

I am really curious as to what this is supposed to accomplish. If you really want to time it, you can just measure it in any other way (Video timer, stopwatch, sand clock, whatever), and change your bet to "before 4 minutes real time".

To me, it just seems to be an entirely pointless change. Maybe someone can enlighten me?

On July 27 2015 22:36 swissman777 wrote:


Well, there must be a referee or sth. Like maybe a timer site both betters can agree on. It's not that hard I think.

On July 28 2015 00:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:

The supply does the same job tbh

On July 28 2015 02:00 sashkata wrote:
The clock is so non essential that I'm surprised so many people are pissed about it. lol

On July 28 2015 02:02 GGzerG wrote:
Smart move, most of these ex BW pro's dont use the game clock anyways.

On July 28 2015 02:00 sashkata wrote:
The clock is so non essential that I'm surprised so many people are pissed about it. lol

On July 28 2015 03:12 JoshSuth wrote:
Consider this: someone approaches you, a pro player, and says "Hey I am a big fan! I have a bet on your game but it's not on win or lose. I have $1,000 on the game going to at least 15 minutes, so I'll split it with you if you just play conservatively in Game 3 against so-and-so!" and then going to the opponent and saying the same thing. It's more tempting to the players because "nobody loses" and nobody is asking you to throw a game or even a match, just try to turtle a bit more than usual.

I have heard rumors that stuff like that has happened, but no hard evidence.

On July 28 2015 03:37 rotta wrote:

That comparison doesn't really work.

On July 28 2015 02:27 sashkata wrote:

It's quite the opposite. People relying on the clock find themselves lost if the game doesn't play out the way they are used to. It's like learning an opening in chess, but your opponent doesn't play the moves he should and you don't know what to do any more.

If you are learning the game the clock is almost useless. People are not going to be hitting timings correctly and stuff like that.

On July 28 2015 02:11 darkness wrote:
The game clock is important as you can expect certain strategies. E.g. if you scout 3 rax, you may expect rush between 05:00 and 06:00. If you scout 1-1-1, then 8 min or so.

Edit 2: Guys imagine watching football with no time on TV. It may not be as important, but you'll have no idea what's up.

On July 28 2015 04:29 MirrorWorthy wrote:
lol... I mean... Why do they care so much that people are making prop bets on Starcraft 2 matches? Isn't that a good thing? Increases viewership? garners interest etc?

On July 28 2015 03:32 FFW_Rude wrote:


Source is : "There is no clock in BW"

On July 28 2015 04:52 GGzerG wrote:

FantaSy recently said in an interview that he doesn't use the in game Clock, or maybe it was Stork, one of the ex BW pro's that play SC2 now, Star Sense is strong with them. ^^

On July 28 2015 04:27 Dingodile wrote:

Exaclty the opposite should be. We need clock in football, NBA etc because we know that game takes 90min etc. In most cases the time (close to end) generates tension.

In sc2, we dont need the clock because the game can end in 5min or 35min. Your 3rax example is great: stop look the clock and learn/play the game with feeling & experience (and with it you should know when your opponent is coming).

This thread is making me feel like I watch a different game to the average viewer ~_~.

On July 28 2015 04:29 MirrorWorthy wrote:
lol... I mean... Why do they care so much that people are making prop bets on Starcraft 2 matches? Isn't that a good thing? Increases viewership? garners interest etc?

On July 28 2015 06:26 JCoto wrote:
We can always download replay packs.

If you look for them, you'll find them.

Or just ask for them on a thread. Almost every tournament eventually releases they replay packs.

On July 28 2015 06:31 ZAiNs wrote:

Proleague never has and most likely never will release replays.

On July 28 2015 09:33 varsovie wrote:
It's not like I can see proleague's minimap or time at the highest free english quality anyway.

On July 28 2015 04:29 MirrorWorthy wrote:
lol... I mean... Why do they care so much that people are making prop bets on Starcraft 2 matches? Isn't that a good thing? Increases viewership? garners interest etc?

On July 28 2015 15:37 Swoopae wrote:
Positive step to counter-act match fixing, doesn't detract from the viewing experience and the harder we can make it for match fixers the better - players throwing matches we can detect through line movement + observation, length of game props just mean a player will go all in or macro depending on the outcome that was bet on, but is still terrible for the integrity of esports so this is a step in the right direction to stamp that out by making it difficult for the illegal bookies to offer/grade the 'prop' type bets.

The next step is permanent bans for players caught match fixing, and thorough investigations into both the cases that have taken place (mostly the ones a few months ago in proleague/kespa cup/starleague) and any future cases that occur

I've noticed the teams have stopped fielding San and Marineking who were involved in some of the more blatant fixed matches, and Super seems to have mostly disappeared as has Soulkey recently, but others who were involved in blatantly suspicious matches/line movements remain playing in proleague *cough* Yoda (and Inno/B4 were also in suspicious matches, not sure who else off the top of my head would have to check the old threads)

On July 28 2015 02:02 ZAiNs wrote:
The clock is just removed from broadcasts, the players still have access to it, or there would be a lot of pissed off progamers. Do you have a source on any pro players not using the clock? It's very useful and disabling it for no benefit would be super silly.

On July 27 2015 20:27 BisuDagger wrote:
Cover the minimap too! I make all my winnings off guessing spawn locations.

On July 28 2015 20:12 Skynx wrote:

Well played

On July 28 2015 20:44 Sbuiko wrote:


No it isn't a good point. It's simple: the whole change is about players being unable to secretly 'feed' bets. Players can't influence starting positions, and therefore there's no need to hide them.

On July 28 2015 09:38 brickrd wrote:

i just watch the vods a few hours later in HD when it's not, you know... the middle of the night... so yeah

On July 28 2015 21:58 aRyuujin wrote:


I doubt that kespa is going to fight every instance of illegal gambling. That's a task for the broader government and police, and they've been dealing with it for years. Most likely, kespa is attempting to attack bets that influence gameplay. If people bet on spawning locations, at least it doesn't tamper with the integrity of competitipn

On July 28 2015 23:13 Swoopae wrote:


This is an important point, gambling only negatively affects the e-sports community when the players are participating in match fixing of any sort (including leaking builds to help people bet on 'props' like when the game will end, will a broodlord be built in the match, or whatever else). Having people bet on whether Stats or Classic spawns in the north or south location on the map or whatever is irrelevant, as the players have no control over that and the betting can't be rigged for profit at the expense of game integrity

On July 28 2015 23:15 Skynx wrote:

Man he wasn't serious lol

On July 28 2015 15:37 Swoopae wrote:
Positive step to counter-act match fixing, doesn't detract from the viewing experience and the harder we can make it for match fixers the better - players throwing matches we can detect through line movement + observation, length of game props just mean a player will go all in or macro depending on the outcome that was bet on, but is still terrible for the integrity of esports so this is a step in the right direction to stamp that out by making it difficult for the illegal bookies to offer/grade the 'prop' type bets.

The next step is permanent bans for players caught match fixing, and thorough investigations into both the cases that have taken place (mostly the ones a few months ago in proleague/kespa cup/starleague) and any future cases that occur

I've noticed the teams have stopped fielding San and Marineking who were involved in some of the more blatant fixed matches, and Super seems to have mostly disappeared as has Soulkey recently, but others who were involved in blatantly suspicious matches/line movements remain playing in proleague *cough* Yoda (and Inno/B4 were also in suspicious matches, not sure who else off the top of my head would have to check the old threads)

doesn't detract from the viewing experience

On July 28 2015 05:55 Caihead wrote:
Seems to me like the progamers would be minimally affected since they would be analyzing replays and practicing with partners where the vod timer wouldn't be an issue. I don't see that part of the discussion at all.

On July 28 2015 05:29 ZAiNs wrote:
Oh ok. So if you tune into Proleague during its on and you see its just slightly past 9 minutes and Protoss is just pushing out vs. Zerg with 3 Immortals and a handful of Sentries you can say almost for sure that the Protoss did a FE into ~5:45-6:00 Robo without any or at least minimal pressure all game. Looking at the supply of the Zerg at 9 minutes you can also get a rough idea about their opening (i.e., 3 Hatch before Pool or Speedling) and what sort of light pressure occurred earlier in the game. Without a game timer you can assume so much less about the current game-state and as an educated viewer you know so much less about what has happened in the game so far.

Also, tell me what's useful to a player. Knowing roughly (thanks to 'feeling & experience') the earliest times a DT can be warped in given an opponent's opening, or knowing exactly give or take a couple of seconds?

On July 29 2015 17:21 Dingodile wrote:

Doesnt matter about the couple of seconds. You should know/feel when your opponent (cheese or timing attack or early push or whatever) is coming by own feeling and experience (worked in all rts games I played) and not by watching the clock.

I am sure that we all are scouting alot more if we play without the clock. The clock reveals too much (on both sides).

On July 28 2015 17:44 lichter wrote:
people who think bookies and bettors are going to rely on stopwatches as a long term solution really don't understand gambling yeesh

On July 29 2015 19:41 ZAiNs wrote:

A couple of seconds matters when an Oracle flies into your base. Even pro-level starsense isn't as good as looking at the clock. And how about when you are Forcefielding your ramp vs DTs/4 Gate in PvP and you want the Forcefields to overlap as little as possible? Use starsense, count 10 Blizzard seconds in your head, or just look at the clock? Do you also keep looking at your army to see if the Photon Overcharge range indicator is still there?

On July 28 2015 09:33 varsovie wrote:
It's not like I can see proleague's minimap or time at the highest free english quality anyway.

On July 31 2015 10:00 DwD wrote:
I'm sorry but this is retarded. So in order to "punish"(are they really punished? doubtful) you make the experience worse for your legitimate viewers...