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On July 01 2015 14:35 Plecto wrote:
As for protoss, you will kill yourself playing these, especially vs zerg. I can imagine a lot of games will lead into more protoss all-ins, and it's unfortunate. This time I can't blame any protoss for going full all-in since the expansions are close to undefendable because of distance between bases, and the wide open area around them.
This is so very true. Protosses are going to have to become more gimmicky if they want to win at the higher level, which means that terrans and zergs can just blindly play defensively and expect a lot of easy wins (this isn't balance whine, sorry if it sounds like it) because the maps make macro pretty much a nonexistent option for Protoss for the most part. Hope some redesign gets thrown onto these maps ASAP to help fix the problems that make some of the mu's so 1-sided.
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On July 02 2015 08:03 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 07:44 Paljas wrote:
map pool is dank.
the same people who complained about blizzard maps all the fucking time now complain about a 100% community map pool.
and the same people who complain about standard "boring" maps now complain about some experimental details.
Yeah pretty much. The community is very divided regarding standard and nonstandard maps and features, and you can clearly see this every time the map pool changes (or when it doesn't). I personally as long as the map pool changes I'm fine with, I enjoy playing on standard and nonstandard maps. Hell I even enjoy playing on early WoL beta maps like incineration zone now and then. But yeah, my only grief with this TLMC is that all the talk at the end of the TLMC5 was that the TLMC 6 would be focused on standard maps, and I delivered, but at the end it went full 180º and the judges choose nonstandard maps, and I'm okay with that, but I only wish that they had said that they were searching for so I could deliver, because I find very fun making nonstandard maps because they require quite a bit of game knowledge and are very fun to test and debug (yes I enjoy debugging my maps).
@ beasty & WireAs I said, this is a very nice discussion, because there are these two sides where one side really dislikes playing on nonstandard maps, and the other gets tired of the same set of standard maps being played all the time. I really don't see a way how this could be mended specially when you consider the viewers into the equation. I was talking with Meavis about this a while ago, and yeah, the only way I can see it getting "fixed" may be separating the "competitive" map pool from a more "for funnies" map pool. But there would still be the problem that the progamers will veto any map that gets away from the standard and the E-Sports side of the game would continue to use the same "dull ass maps". But yeah, if anyone has an idea regarding how we could have everybody, or at least a good part of the population without fucking the other 50% over would be very nice.
Hi Uvantak,
First I wonder how it feels to be one of the most celebrated and yet the most robbed mapmaker of all time, since Inferno Pools ("the big macro map") lasted as many seasons as Foxtrot Labs + Echo.
Second I think the game itself should be the first factor allowing diverse strategies and openers, not the maps. It's mostly SC2 problem if there is basically only 1-3 viable at the highest level ways to play in each match-up, and we shouldn't have to resort to maps to solve that. Mapmakers shouldn't have to make up for the game lacking design. People get excited every time we see something different (biomech, chargelot archon...) so I'm pretty sure no one would be crying for "meta shaking maps" if ZvZ wasn't roach vs roach or lingbane vs lingbane and like something else 1% of the time, if PvP wasn't colossi wars 99% of the time it goes past 2 bases, if PvT wasn't the sempiternal bio vs colossi with variations that are too subtle for the average viewer (vikingless marauder mine heavy style, standard viking bio, scv pull, viking + ghost into lategame, all that boils down to the same thing for the viewer)...
Last I hope mapmakers don't get too disgusted by this thread. Once again, yeah a lot of us are bashing the maps, but because the map pool on a whole is too macro unfriendly, not because maps aren't interesting. We blame Blizzard for incoherent choices (TLMC finalists and this map pool) far more than we blame the mapmakers for their work. I want to mention that as Beastyqt said, we were a lot to be worried by the backdoors mania that happened in TLMC6 and by the fact the maps selected didn't appear to be the most solid ones, and that we wrote about it.
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On July 02 2015 08:02 Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 06:31 Uvantak wrote:On July 02 2015 05:36 MockHamill wrote:
Yeah this is the worst map pool since early WOL.
All I wish to play is macro games with the occasional cheese. Now it is non stop cheese and macro is dead. It is not fun, it is just stressful and irritating. That happens every time the map pool changes, I'm not sure why are you surprised, give it time so it settles a bit.Regarding what NewSunshine and Sidian said I pretty much fully agree, it is very hard to even get your own maps played, but my take is that atm is very hard for anyone that actually wants to play nonladder maps it is very hard for them to find said maps, be it inside the game itself, or find a place outside where they can find nice maps to play with their friends. It really doesnt, everyone who looked at these maps even once knew they are bad to play on. I dont know why map makers are saying there was no feedback and acting like this is the first time they heard the maps are bad. When there was TLMC tournament İ wrote whats bad about the maps for each map in TLMC tournament and every map maker gave me the response which was something along the lines of " thanks for sharing your opinion but we have no plans of changing the map". A lot of players that played in that tourney had same opinion as İ did back then. The worst map pool since 2010 that just allows allins and no macro games.
like i mentioned before, once the TLMC has gotten to the stage of the finalist selection and the tournament, there is oftentimes no point for mapmakers to change the maps since at this time the files have typically already been sent to blizz for ladder consideration, and blizz will not accept new/revised ones. so pretty much at the point when the maps are actually getting feedback it is already too late.
also consider that it's often hard for mapmakers to separate legitimate feedback from the masses of people complaining "it's not 100% standard, therefore it automatically sucks" which even includes a good percentage of progamers.
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On July 02 2015 08:50 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 08:02 Beastyqt wrote:On July 02 2015 06:31 Uvantak wrote:On July 02 2015 05:36 MockHamill wrote:
Yeah this is the worst map pool since early WOL.
All I wish to play is macro games with the occasional cheese. Now it is non stop cheese and macro is dead. It is not fun, it is just stressful and irritating. That happens every time the map pool changes, I'm not sure why are you surprised, give it time so it settles a bit.Regarding what NewSunshine and Sidian said I pretty much fully agree, it is very hard to even get your own maps played, but my take is that atm is very hard for anyone that actually wants to play nonladder maps it is very hard for them to find said maps, be it inside the game itself, or find a place outside where they can find nice maps to play with their friends. It really doesnt, everyone who looked at these maps even once knew they are bad to play on. I dont know why map makers are saying there was no feedback and acting like this is the first time they heard the maps are bad. When there was TLMC tournament İ wrote whats bad about the maps for each map in TLMC tournament and every map maker gave me the response which was something along the lines of " thanks for sharing your opinion but we have no plans of changing the map". A lot of players that played in that tourney had same opinion as İ did back then. The worst map pool since 2010 that just allows allins and no macro games. like i mentioned before, once the TLMC has gotten to the stage of the finalist selection and the tournament, there is oftentimes no point for mapmakers to change the maps since at this time the files have typically already been sent to blizz for ladder consideration, and blizz will not accept new/revised ones. so pretty much at the point when the maps are actually getting feedback it is already too late. also consider that it's often hard for mapmakers to separate legitimate feedback from the masses of people complaining "it's not 100% standard, therefore it automatically sucks" which even includes a good percentage of progamers.
There is a difference between non standard maps and unplayable ones. Vaani wasnt standard map with in base expansion but it didnt force certain kind of playstyles on it. You could allin, hit a timing off 3 base or just camp whole game.
Current map pool forces players to allin due to the map layout. Example of this is the Dash map, in TvP protoss will always chrono boost mothership core and move it across the map due to short air rush distance. Terran cannot go for reaper FE because of this and it forces Terran to either go gas first or float to the gold which is just dumb.
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At this point, I am happy with the maps we have been getting.
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On July 02 2015 08:35 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 08:03 Uvantak wrote:On July 02 2015 07:44 Paljas wrote:
map pool is dank.
the same people who complained about blizzard maps all the fucking time now complain about a 100% community map pool.
and the same people who complain about standard "boring" maps now complain about some experimental details.
Yeah pretty much. The community is very divided regarding standard and nonstandard maps and features, and you can clearly see this every time the map pool changes (or when it doesn't). I personally as long as the map pool changes I'm fine with, I enjoy playing on standard and nonstandard maps. Hell I even enjoy playing on early WoL beta maps like incineration zone now and then. But yeah, my only grief with this TLMC is that all the talk at the end of the TLMC5 was that the TLMC 6 would be focused on standard maps, and I delivered, but at the end it went full 180º and the judges choose nonstandard maps, and I'm okay with that, but I only wish that they had said that they were searching for so I could deliver, because I find very fun making nonstandard maps because they require quite a bit of game knowledge and are very fun to test and debug (yes I enjoy debugging my maps).
@ beasty & WireAs I said, this is a very nice discussion, because there are these two sides where one side really dislikes playing on nonstandard maps, and the other gets tired of the same set of standard maps being played all the time. I really don't see a way how this could be mended specially when you consider the viewers into the equation. I was talking with Meavis about this a while ago, and yeah, the only way I can see it getting "fixed" may be separating the "competitive" map pool from a more "for funnies" map pool. But there would still be the problem that the progamers will veto any map that gets away from the standard and the E-Sports side of the game would continue to use the same "dull ass maps". But yeah, if anyone has an idea regarding how we could have everybody, or at least a good part of the population without fucking the other 50% over would be very nice. Hi Uvantak, First I wonder how it feels to be one of the most celebrated and yet the most robbed mapmaker of all time, since Inferno Pools ("the big macro map") lasted as many seasons as Foxtrot Labs + Echo.
It is most of it "meh", I do not make maps for a ego thing, and I actually enjoy quite a bit the maps from the other guys so I'm totally fine with Sidian, Negative and others getting their maps into ladder, also it is nice to rest for a while of all the people saying random criticisms about my maps heh
On July 02 2015 08:35 [PkF] Wire wrote:Second I think the game itself should be the first factor allowing diverse strategies and openers, not the maps. It's mostly SC2 problem if there is basically only 1-3 viable at the highest level ways to play in each match-up, and we shouldn't have to resort to maps to solve that. Mapmakers shouldn't have to make up for the game lacking design. People get excited every time we see something different (biomech, chargelot archon...) so I'm pretty sure no one would be crying for "meta shaking maps" if ZvZ wasn't roach vs roach or lingbane vs lingbane and like something else 1% of the time, if PvP wasn't colossi wars 99% of the time it goes past 2 bases, if PvT wasn't the sempiternal bio vs colossi with variations that are too subtle for the average viewer (vikingless marauder mine heavy style, standard viking bio, scv pull, viking + ghost into lategame, all that boils down to the same thing for the viewer)...
Basically any thing that you change in the game, from UI and user input passing to unit pathing and unit design affects map design and balance. Regarding map variety itself you must remember that the bulk of BW maps were used in team leagues where the map balance is not as important. Also I'm one of the few to say that in general BW was more restricting towards maps than SC2 is. Like just check an accepted good BW map and you will see that the center of the map is very very open and uninteresting from a mapmaking perspective, and in general they tend to use simple general big overarching ideas on the map layout. This is in big part because of the split up unit pathing BW has, and the very strong Tanks. If you add many ramps or lowgrounds the map will start to become quite T favored. Meanwhile here in SC2 you can have maps such as Moonlight Madness, Echo or Foxtrot and they will be much more balanced than they would be in BW.
Regarding things like backdoors and the first 3 bases layouts, I have found out that unit pathing on the 1x sized ramps plays a very very big role, in BW you simply wouldn't be able to do a ling runby if there were two zealots holding a ramp. Here in SC2 you will need more than just 2 zealots because even if you can put them in a nice spot, they won't hold for long because the lings are very smart and many will nibble at the Zeas, meanwhile in BW this wasn't the case.
Other big thing is the standarization of the rock HP, in BW you had the Xel'naga Temples which had 5000 HP and 1 Armor, and the Protoss Temples which had 1500HP and 1 armor. Mapmakers would use several Protoss of Xel'naga temples stacked on top of eachother to block important pathways such as backdoor rocks, that way if a player wanted to take down said Temples he would need to commit a considerable amount of time into taking them down with normal units or he would need to get splash units (because they are stacked). Mapmakers would also use mineral walls to allow things like "pylon glitching" probes over the mineral patches to get scout (heartbreak ridge comes to mind).
But yeah, in my opinion SC2 has more potential than BW for interesting maps and shenanigans, while keeping the dammed thing balanced. But as it is known we atm are not allowed to use these things because they can be very confusing for new players and spectators, but Psione since he became a community manager has done very good work regarding community maps, and I wouldn't be surprised if more custom things were started to be allowed on the WCS Map Pool. specially since we are seeing that Blizzard guys seem to be more or less fine accepting custom textures for doodads and terrain.
On July 02 2015 08:35 [PkF] Wire wrote:Last I hope mapmakers don't get too disgusted by this thread. Once again, yeah a lot of us are bashing the maps, but because the map pool on a whole is too macro unfriendly, not because maps aren't interesting. We blame Blizzard for incoherent choices (TLMC finalists and this map pool) far more than we blame the mapmakers for their work. I want to mention that as Beastyqt said, we were a lot to be worried by the backdoors mania that happened in TLMC6 and by the fact the maps selected didn't appear to be the most solid ones, and that we wrote about it.
The guys are used to all the drama and what not, like every time a new guy gets his map on the ladder he freaks out when he starts receiving all the feedback that his map sucks (go figure), and it is the job of the others to tell him that all is fine and that it is on Blizz's hands now.
Regarding the "macro unfriendlyness", imo you need to wait, specially on maps like Moonlight Madness or Dash (screw you negative, I'm not mentioning yours just b/c I can) because the maps DO allow for macro games, and some pretty sweet ones, but just like at the start of every season it takes a while for people to get used to the new maps, and until they get used to them they will cheese, a lot.
There probably will be some allins that are stronger, and that is completely normal, after all we are talking of nonstandard maps here, but I at the moment doubt that they will be that extra strong.
On July 02 2015 08:56 Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 08:50 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 02 2015 08:02 Beastyqt wrote:On July 02 2015 06:31 Uvantak wrote:On July 02 2015 05:36 MockHamill wrote:
Yeah this is the worst map pool since early WOL.
All I wish to play is macro games with the occasional cheese. Now it is non stop cheese and macro is dead. It is not fun, it is just stressful and irritating. That happens every time the map pool changes, I'm not sure why are you surprised, give it time so it settles a bit.Regarding what NewSunshine and Sidian said I pretty much fully agree, it is very hard to even get your own maps played, but my take is that atm is very hard for anyone that actually wants to play nonladder maps it is very hard for them to find said maps, be it inside the game itself, or find a place outside where they can find nice maps to play with their friends. It really doesnt, everyone who looked at these maps even once knew they are bad to play on. I dont know why map makers are saying there was no feedback and acting like this is the first time they heard the maps are bad. When there was TLMC tournament İ wrote whats bad about the maps for each map in TLMC tournament and every map maker gave me the response which was something along the lines of " thanks for sharing your opinion but we have no plans of changing the map". A lot of players that played in that tourney had same opinion as İ did back then. The worst map pool since 2010 that just allows allins and no macro games. like i mentioned before, once the TLMC has gotten to the stage of the finalist selection and the tournament, there is oftentimes no point for mapmakers to change the maps since at this time the files have typically already been sent to blizz for ladder consideration, and blizz will not accept new/revised ones. so pretty much at the point when the maps are actually getting feedback it is already too late. also consider that it's often hard for mapmakers to separate legitimate feedback from the masses of people complaining "it's not 100% standard, therefore it automatically sucks" which even includes a good percentage of progamers. There is a difference between non standard maps and unplayable ones. Vaani wasnt standard map with in base expansion but it didnt force certain kind of playstyles on it. You could allin, hit a timing off 3 base or just camp whole game. Current map pool forces players to allin due to the map layout. Example of this is the Dash map, in TvP protoss will always chrono boost mothership core and move it across the map due to short air rush distance. Terran cannot go for reaper FE because of this and it forces Terran to either go gas first or float to the gold which is just dumb.
Yeah, I understand you perfectly, from a competitive player perspective the maps can be pretty bad, but now put yourself on the foots of an average viewer, for them a Terran lifting to the gold because P can harass him with the MsC is pretty dank for lack of a better word. Also the reaper path to the Toss main base is very very short on Dash, so I wouldn't be surprised to see in the next weeks P players complaining of the exact opposite, of how easy is for the T to do silly things like 3 rax reaper directly oto their mains.
And that's what is interesting, yesterday I was talking with a friend and we agreed that RottyTempests rushes could be viable on Dash, if we see that from a viewer perspective you can clearly realize that these nonstandard maps can bring lots of very visible strategies. I'm not saying that I do not enjoy sharp baby ass clean timings like many Korean pros can do, I do very much enjoy them, I'm just saying that from a casual viewer these maps offer a more visible "starcraft experience", without them needing to be at least Platinum league players form them to even grasp how sharp some of the attacks and mind reads they can pulloff.
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On July 02 2015 08:03 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 07:44 Paljas wrote:
map pool is dank.
the same people who complained about blizzard maps all the fucking time now complain about a 100% community map pool.
and the same people who complain about standard "boring" maps now complain about some experimental details.
Yeah pretty much. The community is very divided regarding standard and nonstandard maps and features, and you can clearly see this every time the map pool changes (or when it doesn't). I personally as long as the map pool changes I'm fine with, I enjoy playing on standard and nonstandard maps. Hell I even enjoy playing on early WoL beta maps like incineration zone now and then. But yeah, my only grief with this TLMC is that all the talk at the end of the TLMC5 was that the TLMC 6 would be focused on standard maps, and I delivered, but at the end it went full 180º and the judges choose nonstandard maps, and I'm okay with that, but I only wish that they had said that they were searching for so I could deliver, because I find very fun making nonstandard maps because they require quite a bit of game knowledge and are very fun to test and debug (yes I enjoy debugging my maps).
@ beasty & WireAs I said, this is a very nice discussion, because there are these two sides where one side really dislikes playing on nonstandard maps, and the other gets tired of the same set of standard maps being played all the time. I really don't see a way how this could be mended specially when you consider the viewers into the equation. I was talking with Meavis about this a while ago, and yeah, the only way I can see it getting "fixed" may be separating the "competitive" map pool from a more "for funnies" map pool. But there would still be the problem that the progamers will veto any map that gets away from the standard and the E-Sports side of the game would continue to use the same "dull ass maps". But yeah, if anyone has an idea regarding how we could have everybody, or at least a good part of the population without fucking the other 50% over would be very nice.
There are seven maps in the pool, three vetos on ladder, and the vast majority of tournament games played by pros are Bo3. Here's your solution : have four standard maps (ideally three 2p and one 4p) alongside three more experimental maps (two 2p and one 4p).
On the ladder side of things :
-The guy who enjoys only standard play because he wants to "play like the pros" (aka hammering the same macro build over and over regardless of the map) can just veto the three experimental maps
-The guy who enjoys only weird maps because he doesn't find hammering the same macro build over and over fun can veto three of the four standard maps
-The guy who enjoys both is happy :D
On the competitive side of things :
-Since most series are Bo3, having only three experimental maps isn't an issue
-When it's a Bo5, yes there'll be one map played on an experimental map, but when you reach the Bo5 stage of a tournament it's either (a) a situation where you had a lot of time to prepare (WCS Challenger, Code S quarters), thus it's not an issue, or (b) a situation where you didn't have time to prepare (WCS playoffs, foreign tournaments playoffs) in which case I think that when you're a pro and you reach the later stages of a tournament, you should be good enough (relatively to your opponents) to be able to play efficiently on experimental maps.
-When it's a Bo7, well basically same deal as with Bo5
The only downside is that both standard (because there are only four) and nonstandard (because they'll be used in the later stages of the most prestigious tournaments) maps need to be really balanced (no more Yeonsu or Nimbus kind of things), thus we need non-WCS tournaments organizers to use non-ladder maps (or we need a tournament only dedicated to new maps). It's not that hard, O'Gaming does it ffs. (edit : and we need Blizzard to take these into account ofc, because they clearly didn't when doing 2014 WCS S3 map pool, else we'd have had Kamala Park on ladder)
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Just wanted to post that I've noticed obnoxious glitching on the back rocks on Bridgehead. My graphics settings are all on low. Pretty annoying, makes it a bit unplayable IMO.
http://i.imgur.com/BMgUGKJ.jpg
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On July 02 2015 15:29 Qwyn wrote:Just wanted to post that I've noticed obnoxious glitching on the back rocks on Bridgehead. My graphics settings are all on low. Pretty annoying, makes it a bit unplayable IMO. http://i.imgur.com/BMgUGKJ.jpg
looks like those are the LoS blockers, not the rocks.
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On July 02 2015 08:35 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Last I hope mapmakers don't get too disgusted by this thread. Once again, yeah a lot of us are bashing the maps, but because the map pool on a whole is too macro unfriendly, not because maps aren't interesting. We blame Blizzard for incoherent choices (TLMC finalists and this map pool) far more than we blame the mapmakers for their work. I want to mention that as Beastyqt said, we were a lot to be worried by the backdoors mania that happened in TLMC6 and by the fact the maps selected didn't appear to be the most solid ones, and that we wrote about it.
don't know about the others, but I appreciate the spike of feedback over the eerie silence, even if it carries emotional load.
and the sillier comments only make for good entertainment.
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On July 02 2015 09:48 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 08:56 Beastyqt wrote:On July 02 2015 08:50 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 02 2015 08:02 Beastyqt wrote:On July 02 2015 06:31 Uvantak wrote:On July 02 2015 05:36 MockHamill wrote:
Yeah this is the worst map pool since early WOL.
All I wish to play is macro games with the occasional cheese. Now it is non stop cheese and macro is dead. It is not fun, it is just stressful and irritating. That happens every time the map pool changes, I'm not sure why are you surprised, give it time so it settles a bit.Regarding what NewSunshine and Sidian said I pretty much fully agree, it is very hard to even get your own maps played, but my take is that atm is very hard for anyone that actually wants to play nonladder maps it is very hard for them to find said maps, be it inside the game itself, or find a place outside where they can find nice maps to play with their friends. It really doesnt, everyone who looked at these maps even once knew they are bad to play on. I dont know why map makers are saying there was no feedback and acting like this is the first time they heard the maps are bad. When there was TLMC tournament İ wrote whats bad about the maps for each map in TLMC tournament and every map maker gave me the response which was something along the lines of " thanks for sharing your opinion but we have no plans of changing the map". A lot of players that played in that tourney had same opinion as İ did back then. The worst map pool since 2010 that just allows allins and no macro games. like i mentioned before, once the TLMC has gotten to the stage of the finalist selection and the tournament, there is oftentimes no point for mapmakers to change the maps since at this time the files have typically already been sent to blizz for ladder consideration, and blizz will not accept new/revised ones. so pretty much at the point when the maps are actually getting feedback it is already too late. also consider that it's often hard for mapmakers to separate legitimate feedback from the masses of people complaining "it's not 100% standard, therefore it automatically sucks" which even includes a good percentage of progamers. There is a difference between non standard maps and unplayable ones. Vaani wasnt standard map with in base expansion but it didnt force certain kind of playstyles on it. You could allin, hit a timing off 3 base or just camp whole game. Current map pool forces players to allin due to the map layout. Example of this is the Dash map, in TvP protoss will always chrono boost mothership core and move it across the map due to short air rush distance. Terran cannot go for reaper FE because of this and it forces Terran to either go gas first or float to the gold which is just dumb. Yeah, I understand you perfectly, from a competitive player perspective the maps can be pretty bad, but now put yourself on the foots of an average viewer, for them a Terran lifting to the gold because P can harass him with the MsC is pretty dank for lack of a better word. Also the reaper path to the Toss main base is very very short on Dash, so I wouldn't be surprised to see in the next weeks P players complaining of the exact opposite, of how easy is for the T to do silly things like 3 rax reaper directly oto their mains. And that's what is interesting, yesterday I was talking with a friend and we agreed that RottyTempests rushes could be viable on Dash, if we see that from a viewer perspective you can clearly realize that these nonstandard maps can bring lots of very visible strategies. I'm not saying that I do not enjoy sharp baby ass clean timings like many Korean pros can do, I do very much enjoy them, I'm just saying that from a casual viewer these maps offer a more visible "starcraft experience", without them needing to be at least Platinum league players form them to even grasp how sharp some of the attacks and mind reads they can pulloff.
I can not stress enaugh how much i disagree with this. These maps actually reduce the amout of strategical thinking needed to play the game since they make certain strategys so powerful that there is no choice anymore. For a game to be played professionally you want it to be based around the more skilled player winning and not about entertaining the viewer. Otherwise it is just not worth it for the players to dedicate themselfs to training if skill doesn't pay off.
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On July 02 2015 17:21 zerge wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 09:48 Uvantak wrote:On July 02 2015 08:56 Beastyqt wrote:On July 02 2015 08:50 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 02 2015 08:02 Beastyqt wrote:On July 02 2015 06:31 Uvantak wrote:On July 02 2015 05:36 MockHamill wrote:
Yeah this is the worst map pool since early WOL.
All I wish to play is macro games with the occasional cheese. Now it is non stop cheese and macro is dead. It is not fun, it is just stressful and irritating. That happens every time the map pool changes, I'm not sure why are you surprised, give it time so it settles a bit.Regarding what NewSunshine and Sidian said I pretty much fully agree, it is very hard to even get your own maps played, but my take is that atm is very hard for anyone that actually wants to play nonladder maps it is very hard for them to find said maps, be it inside the game itself, or find a place outside where they can find nice maps to play with their friends. It really doesnt, everyone who looked at these maps even once knew they are bad to play on. I dont know why map makers are saying there was no feedback and acting like this is the first time they heard the maps are bad. When there was TLMC tournament İ wrote whats bad about the maps for each map in TLMC tournament and every map maker gave me the response which was something along the lines of " thanks for sharing your opinion but we have no plans of changing the map". A lot of players that played in that tourney had same opinion as İ did back then. The worst map pool since 2010 that just allows allins and no macro games. like i mentioned before, once the TLMC has gotten to the stage of the finalist selection and the tournament, there is oftentimes no point for mapmakers to change the maps since at this time the files have typically already been sent to blizz for ladder consideration, and blizz will not accept new/revised ones. so pretty much at the point when the maps are actually getting feedback it is already too late. also consider that it's often hard for mapmakers to separate legitimate feedback from the masses of people complaining "it's not 100% standard, therefore it automatically sucks" which even includes a good percentage of progamers. There is a difference between non standard maps and unplayable ones. Vaani wasnt standard map with in base expansion but it didnt force certain kind of playstyles on it. You could allin, hit a timing off 3 base or just camp whole game. Current map pool forces players to allin due to the map layout. Example of this is the Dash map, in TvP protoss will always chrono boost mothership core and move it across the map due to short air rush distance. Terran cannot go for reaper FE because of this and it forces Terran to either go gas first or float to the gold which is just dumb. Yeah, I understand you perfectly, from a competitive player perspective the maps can be pretty bad, but now put yourself on the foots of an average viewer, for them a Terran lifting to the gold because P can harass him with the MsC is pretty dank for lack of a better word. Also the reaper path to the Toss main base is very very short on Dash, so I wouldn't be surprised to see in the next weeks P players complaining of the exact opposite, of how easy is for the T to do silly things like 3 rax reaper directly oto their mains. And that's what is interesting, yesterday I was talking with a friend and we agreed that RottyTempests rushes could be viable on Dash, if we see that from a viewer perspective you can clearly realize that these nonstandard maps can bring lots of very visible strategies. I'm not saying that I do not enjoy sharp baby ass clean timings like many Korean pros can do, I do very much enjoy them, I'm just saying that from a casual viewer these maps offer a more visible "starcraft experience", without them needing to be at least Platinum league players form them to even grasp how sharp some of the attacks and mind reads they can pulloff. I can not stress enaugh how much i disagree with this. These maps actually reduce the amout of strategical thinking needed to play the game since they make certain strategys so powerful that there is no choice anymore. For a game to be played professionally you want it to be based around the more skilled player winning and not about entertaining the viewer. Otherwise it is just not worth it for the players to dedicate themselfs to training if skill doesn't pay off.
and I disagree with that, the moment map specific strategies become optimized no-brainers, hard-counter strategies will rise as well, providing a new strategic/decision making high, and this makes these kind of maps very interesting.
the downside of this however that it will devolve to coin-flipping, and later on becomes equally stale as standard meta, and why I feel these kinds of maps aren't as suited for a system where 6/7 maps last half a year.
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There are seven maps in the pool, three vetos on ladder, and the vast majority of tournament games played by pros are Bo3. Here's your solution : have four standard maps (ideally three 2p and one 4p) alongside three more experimental maps (two 2p and one 4p).
On the ladder side of things :
-The guy who enjoys only standard play because he wants to "play like the pros" (aka hammering the same macro build over and over regardless of the map) can just veto the three experimental maps
-The guy who enjoys only weird maps because he doesn't find hammering the same macro build over and over fun can veto three of the four standard maps
-The guy who enjoys both is happy :D
Pretty much this. But that's in blizzard's hands, given how mappools are being handled. And of course it is easier said than done as it depends a lot on opinions what is standard and what is not. And often maps only become standard after being played and as its feature-combination gets firgured out.
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On July 02 2015 15:31 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 15:29 Qwyn wrote:Just wanted to post that I've noticed obnoxious glitching on the back rocks on Bridgehead. My graphics settings are all on low. Pretty annoying, makes it a bit unplayable IMO. http://i.imgur.com/BMgUGKJ.jpg looks like those are the LoS blockers, not the rocks.
Ahhhh, you might be right! Looks like it as well.
Yeah I wonder if there are graphics settings I can play on that make it go away? Every time I jump to my natural on Bridgehead I get driven a little bit more insane.
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I love the new maps  Finally i can think of some new strats instead of doing always the same thing. About the complains don't bother about it. It are always the same people in every thread who starts to shit on blizzard. You know when the maps are only out for 48 hours that most of it is just whining. Everybody have fun on the new maps !!! :D
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On July 03 2015 04:33 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 15:31 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 02 2015 15:29 Qwyn wrote:Just wanted to post that I've noticed obnoxious glitching on the back rocks on Bridgehead. My graphics settings are all on low. Pretty annoying, makes it a bit unplayable IMO. http://i.imgur.com/BMgUGKJ.jpg looks like those are the LoS blockers, not the rocks. Ahhhh, you might be right! Looks like it as well. Yeah I wonder if there are graphics settings I can play on that make it go away? Every time I jump to my natural on Bridgehead I get driven a little bit more insane.
Check if your graphic drivers are up to date, the bug that you are experiencing is clearly into the way your graphic card is interpreting the model, and the only way to fix it probably is with the drivers.
On July 02 2015 17:21 zerge wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 09:48 Uvantak wrote:On July 02 2015 08:56 Beastyqt wrote:On July 02 2015 08:50 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 02 2015 08:02 Beastyqt wrote:On July 02 2015 06:31 Uvantak wrote:On July 02 2015 05:36 MockHamill wrote:
Yeah this is the worst map pool since early WOL.
All I wish to play is macro games with the occasional cheese. Now it is non stop cheese and macro is dead. It is not fun, it is just stressful and irritating. That happens every time the map pool changes, I'm not sure why are you surprised, give it time so it settles a bit.Regarding what NewSunshine and Sidian said I pretty much fully agree, it is very hard to even get your own maps played, but my take is that atm is very hard for anyone that actually wants to play nonladder maps it is very hard for them to find said maps, be it inside the game itself, or find a place outside where they can find nice maps to play with their friends. It really doesnt, everyone who looked at these maps even once knew they are bad to play on. I dont know why map makers are saying there was no feedback and acting like this is the first time they heard the maps are bad. When there was TLMC tournament İ wrote whats bad about the maps for each map in TLMC tournament and every map maker gave me the response which was something along the lines of " thanks for sharing your opinion but we have no plans of changing the map". A lot of players that played in that tourney had same opinion as İ did back then. The worst map pool since 2010 that just allows allins and no macro games. like i mentioned before, once the TLMC has gotten to the stage of the finalist selection and the tournament, there is oftentimes no point for mapmakers to change the maps since at this time the files have typically already been sent to blizz for ladder consideration, and blizz will not accept new/revised ones. so pretty much at the point when the maps are actually getting feedback it is already too late. also consider that it's often hard for mapmakers to separate legitimate feedback from the masses of people complaining "it's not 100% standard, therefore it automatically sucks" which even includes a good percentage of progamers. There is a difference between non standard maps and unplayable ones. Vaani wasnt standard map with in base expansion but it didnt force certain kind of playstyles on it. You could allin, hit a timing off 3 base or just camp whole game. Current map pool forces players to allin due to the map layout. Example of this is the Dash map, in TvP protoss will always chrono boost mothership core and move it across the map due to short air rush distance. Terran cannot go for reaper FE because of this and it forces Terran to either go gas first or float to the gold which is just dumb. Yeah, I understand you perfectly, from a competitive player perspective the maps can be pretty bad, but now put yourself on the foots of an average viewer, for them a Terran lifting to the gold because P can harass him with the MsC is pretty dank for lack of a better word. Also the reaper path to the Toss main base is very very short on Dash, so I wouldn't be surprised to see in the next weeks P players complaining of the exact opposite, of how easy is for the T to do silly things like 3 rax reaper directly oto their mains. And that's what is interesting, yesterday I was talking with a friend and we agreed that RottyTempests rushes could be viable on Dash, if we see that from a viewer perspective you can clearly realize that these nonstandard maps can bring lots of very visible strategies. I'm not saying that I do not enjoy sharp baby ass clean timings like many Korean pros can do, I do very much enjoy them, I'm just saying that from a casual viewer these maps offer a more visible "starcraft experience", without them needing to be at least Platinum league players form them to even grasp how sharp some of the attacks and mind reads they can pulloff. I can not stress enaugh how much i disagree with this. These maps actually reduce the amout of strategical thinking needed to play the game since they make certain strategys so powerful that there is no choice anymore. For a game to be played professionally you want it to be based around the more skilled player winning and not about entertaining the viewer. Otherwise it is just not worth it for the players to dedicate themselfs to training if skill doesn't pay off.
That's a main thing that I would discuss, why would their "skill" not payoff? That line shows me that you think that BO's are what you identify as "skill", when sharp BO's are just a part of a good player. Maru will continue to be Maru on steppes of war as he would be on Daybreak and the only difference between how sharp his timings will be is how much time has he spent learning how does the other race behave on X map.
Actually you could even argue that following a single Bo mindlessly on basically any map and winning does not mean that the player is "skillful", but it simply means that he's able to execute the thing nicely, but that's not necessarily a good way to showcase "skill", because being able to do the same thing over and over does not really mean that X player is "skillful". Meanwhile being able to easily adapt and exploit the terrain advantages of a certain map on the fly (or with training) is a better way to showcase skill.
Regarding the "no choice anymore" that only happens very very late on the map's life cycle, and it is not that there will be a single Bo/allin that's very strong, but two or three different very refined bo's that require complete different responses from his opponent, which is what the Blink allin problem was for the most part, the conjunction of Oracle rushes/heavy two blink base allins/economic two base blink plays.
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So is it even possible to play mech on this map pool?
The only maps I have positive winrates on is Coda and Dash and Terminal.
Cactus Valley 39%
Terraform 35%
Iron Fortress 32%
I guess I could unban Bridgehead and Moonlight madness and shift my vetoes around but they seem even worse for mech? Very hard to hold 3rd, even worse 4th.
Is there a single mech player left in this map pool? If so which maps do you ban and how do you play the remaining maps?
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On July 29 2015 01:25 MockHamill wrote:
So is it even possible to play mech on this map pool?
The only maps I have positive winrates on is Coda and Dash and Terminal.
Cactus Valley 39%
Terraform 35%
Iron Fortress 32%
I guess I could unban Bridgehead and Moonlight madness and shift my vetoes around but they seem even worse for mech? Very hard to hold 3rd, even worse 4th.
Is there a single mech player left in this map pool? If so which maps do you ban and how do you play the remaining maps?
In my opinion it is impossible to play mech on a map with backdoor rocks because your army is way to immobile to deal with someone who dances between your backdoor and your natural/third with his army. Coda and Terraform are good for mech and cactus/iron fortress okay although it's very hard to attack on iron fortress because of the open middle.
I have dash and terminal voted because I just don't like it but it seems to be very good for mech.
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On July 29 2015 01:33 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2015 01:25 MockHamill wrote:
So is it even possible to play mech on this map pool?
The only maps I have positive winrates on is Coda and Dash and Terminal.
Cactus Valley 39%
Terraform 35%
Iron Fortress 32%
I guess I could unban Bridgehead and Moonlight madness and shift my vetoes around but they seem even worse for mech? Very hard to hold 3rd, even worse 4th.
Is there a single mech player left in this map pool? If so which maps do you ban and how do you play the remaining maps? In my opinion it is impossible to play mech on a map with backdoor rocks because your army is way to immobile to deal with someone who dances between your backdoor and your natural/third with his army. Coda and Terraform are good for mech and cactus/iron fortress okay although it's very hard to attack on iron fortress because of the open middle. I have dash and terminal voted because I just don't like it but it seems to be very good for mech.
How can Terraform be good for mech? It is very hard to have vision of anything and your army can be ambushed at any time. It seems almost impossible to keep track of your opponents army on that map.
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why would we not want this over maps like ganymede? who doesnt want the entire sc2 scene to be ruled by gimmicky maps, gimmicky plays and mockery from everyone for months?
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EPT
