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In a quiet room full of the glistening trophies he's won, Lee Young-ho rolled up the right sleeve on his grey jumper.
A scar, half an inch wide, stretched from just above the elbow and up over his shoulder.
"Our company paid for full medical expenses, so he had an operation," explained his coach, Kang Doh Kyung.
"[He] is the best player in StarCraft and has won everything in this field and is still going strong."
Repetitive strain had injured Mr Lee's muscles, deforming them and making surgery the only option to save his illustrious career.
Holding his arm out so I could have a proper gawp, Mr Lee paused.
"It's like a badge of honour," he said.
It seemed like the confirmation I'd been expecting - that gaming in South Korea had reached a dangerous place, where professionals and amateurs alike were destroying their lives and their bodies.
Read the full article on the BBC website
Love when SC2 gets into the mainstream media...Long live the never dying game!!!
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I definitely like seeing the mainstream's outlook on pro-gaming in Korea, because the do journalism in a very different way when compared to the TL writing staff.
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Funny how BBC always adds the negative aspects of gaming to each of their esports content.
Almost like an addendum in order to not seem too biased either for or against something that is still quite controversial.
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On June 06 2015 12:53 Thaniri wrote:
Funny how BBC always adds the negative aspects of gaming to each of their esports content.
Almost like an addendum in order to not seem too biased either for or against something that is still quite controversial.
Yeah BBC news used to have seriously high integrity journalism - But these days like all internet news sites however, it has reduced itself down to 'hits per unit time/ income per unit advertising area.'
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The honor code is real. Thanks for sharing!
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
I wonder why they always use this story.
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lol wtf
There have been numerous instances where gamers have died in these PC Bangs.
Yeah screw this "journalist" and BBC.
srsly, is there no one in these big news companies who is both a journalist and isn't ignorant of esports?
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Canada16217 Posts
On June 06 2015 13:42 stuchiu wrote:
I wonder why they always use this story.
because flash?
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On June 06 2015 15:20 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 13:42 stuchiu wrote:
I wonder why they always use this story. because flash?
No I mean the mainstream esports flow chart: You can compete off games and make money? Insert random team/pro without any context on why anyone should care as example of people competing for money. Go into how gaming is probably dangerous for you. The End.
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well that article was a bummer. hardly covered anything in depth. no one is going to read this article and find out anything new (granted they werent completely oblivious to esports in the first place)
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What a shitty article. Fuck you, BBC. Now I'm worried about the quality of their reporting in other fields. Maybe it's just as bad, but I don't realize it, since I've never been to Syria, nor understand the intricacies of the struggle in Darfur, or have a firm grasp of the inside view of Venezuelan economics.
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That scar is huge for something made in the 21st century. Does anyone know what precisely he was being operated for? (I'm also interested in how playing SC 10+ hours/day can damage the arm, while I can see that it can easily damage wrists or shoulders/back I fail to imagine how for the arm)
As for the article, it's decent, nor very good nor very bad.
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Read it and got 'the confirmation I'd been expecting'.... such shitty journalism.
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"people are making money playing video games!!! wtf, i'm a journalist, and i say that is TOTALLY not okay! time to write a not so subtle slander piece about how esports specifically (i'll ignore how real sports are about 100x more physically consuming and dangerous at a pro level) are dangerous to participants! maybe this will make my gf love me because she'll see how stupid and base these 'gamers' are, next to my important profession of enlightening the masses!"
honestly though, stupid article, stupid topic for an article when you take into scope all of the awesome things about scbw.. it reads as arrogant and dismissive, which is the opposite of how any piece of media trying to introduce a new topic to readers should be.. like he hurt his arm? he's also the best terran in the world even though he hasn't played in like 2 years, why focus on his injury..
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At least the video the accompanies the article doesn't focus too much on the classic addiction and danger angle.
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On June 06 2015 15:58 OtherWorld wrote:
That scar is huge for something made in the 21st century. Does anyone know what precisely he was being operated for? (I'm also interested in how playing SC 10+ hours/day can damage the arm, while I can see that it can easily damage wrists or shoulders/back I fail to imagine how for the arm)
As for the article, it's decent, nor very good nor very bad.
Wrist issue and carpal tunnel.
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On June 06 2015 16:48 Endymion wrote:
"people are making money playing video games!!! wtf, i'm a journalist, and i say that is TOTALLY not okay! time to write a not so subtle slander piece about how esports specifically (i'll ignore how real sports are about 100x more physically consuming and dangerous at a pro level) are dangerous to participants! maybe this will make my gf love me because she'll see how stupid and base these 'gamers' are, next to my important profession of enlightening the masses!"
honestly though, stupid article, stupid topic for an article when you take into scope all of the awesome things about scbw.. it reads as arrogant and dismissive, which is the opposite of how any piece of media trying to introduce a new topic to readers should be.. like he hurt his arm? he's also the best terran in the world even though he hasn't played in like 2 years, why focus on his injury..
Focusing on StarCraft when boxing is legal is pathetic.
I'm not saying that boxing should be illegal. I'm not sure about it yet, but I wanted to point that out.
Edit: Or american football and its crazy brain damage statistics.
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I'm pretty sure people never get hurt in real sports like soccer/football/boxing/etc.
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This was a pretty shitty article if I do say so myself. I was expecting a lot, lot more from a BBC article.
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Lol pretty much every professional sport destroys your body.
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On June 06 2015 18:13 Aeromi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 15:58 OtherWorld wrote:
That scar is huge for something made in the 21st century. Does anyone know what precisely he was being operated for? (I'm also interested in how playing SC 10+ hours/day can damage the arm, while I can see that it can easily damage wrists or shoulders/back I fail to imagine how for the arm)
As for the article, it's decent, nor very good nor very bad. Wrist issue and carpal tunnel.
I think there was something more to it. Actually you could look for the press release/thread on TL after Flash had the surgery. Think it was in 2011 iirc.
Edit: Found an old blog post with some pics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/267099-flashs-surgery-has-been-successful
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Wow, blatantly wrong information. How many pros who played full time 5+ years and have ZERO problems. Just because some idiot has a heart attack in a pc bang doesn't mean gaming is dangerous. Smart Pros take care of their bodies with daily exercise. Look at those arms on Zest, Harstem, Slivko etc.
Can you imagine how many athletes been injured in the gym? Millions.
And this closing comment takes the cake: "During my time with KT Rolster my point of view flip-flopped between seeing gaming as either serious business, or a serious problem.
With the relentless tap-tap-tap of keyboards still echoing in my ears, I came to the only reasonable conclusion I could: it's both. "
TLDR: esports is such a dangerous addiction it might just kill you. Pfff.
Took my twitter out of retirement to tweet the journalist. https://twitter.com/daveleebbc
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On June 06 2015 18:13 Aeromi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 15:58 OtherWorld wrote:
That scar is huge for something made in the 21st century. Does anyone know what precisely he was being operated for? (I'm also interested in how playing SC 10+ hours/day can damage the arm, while I can see that it can easily damage wrists or shoulders/back I fail to imagine how for the arm)
As for the article, it's decent, nor very good nor very bad. Wrist issue and carpal tunnel.
For a carpal tunnel syndrome surgery is made directly at the wrist though afaik.
On June 06 2015 19:02 cravin74 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 18:13 Aeromi wrote:On June 06 2015 15:58 OtherWorld wrote:
That scar is huge for something made in the 21st century. Does anyone know what precisely he was being operated for? (I'm also interested in how playing SC 10+ hours/day can damage the arm, while I can see that it can easily damage wrists or shoulders/back I fail to imagine how for the arm)
As for the article, it's decent, nor very good nor very bad. Wrist issue and carpal tunnel. I think there was something more to it. Actually you could look for the press release/thread on TL after Flash had the surgery. Think it was in 2011 iirc. Edit: Found an old blog post with some pics: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/267099-flashs-surgery-has-been-successful
Thanks for the link, I found my answer there and by dwelling in old threads on tL
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On June 06 2015 18:47 Vandrad wrote:
Lol pretty much every professional sport destroys your body.
^^ this
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Italy12246 Posts
Meanwhile in 'murka, retired NFL players are just fine amirite
What a misinformed article.
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It was fine until the last two lines. The article even describes the many "glistening" trophies he has won. Which one is it BBC? Is it hard working people earning trophies and "winning everything in his field", or is it young people destroying their lives and bodies over "stupid" video games?
What about the comparison between athletes in other fields "destroying their lives"? Cyclists for example typically have a way higher chance of prostate injury or erectile dysfunction, yet it's a perfectly acceptable path to take in life.
Seems to me to be more contradictory BBC journalism.
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It seemed like the confirmation I'd been expecting - that gaming in South Korea had reached a dangerous place, where professionals and amateurs alike were destroying their lives and their bodies.
Really wierd sentence to say the least.
The houskeeper treats them as children at a pre-school "She loves them, she told me. "They're adorable." 
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Starcraft champions are made of iron. What is an arm compared to becoming a god?
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On June 06 2015 20:43 The_Australian wrote:
It was fine until the last two lines. The article even describes the many "glistening" trophies he has won. Which one is it BBC? Is it hard working people earning trophies and "winning everything in his field", or is it young people destroying their lives and bodies over "stupid" video games?
What about the comparison between athletes in other fields "destroying their lives"? Cyclists for example typically have a way higher chance of prostate injury or erectile dysfunction, yet it's a perfectly acceptable path to take in life.
Seems to me to be more contradictory BBC journalism.
I don't think the comparison with athletes is a good ones. Even though their careers are short, professional athletes don't retire before they are nearing fourty, while most progamers barely make it to the 25-year-old mark. Additionally, the latter usually sacrifice their education just to try to get into the progaming scene, a scene that can not yet provice stable salaries for the majority of the players.
Look at Boxer: went from being a star to being a professional gambler.
I have a lot of respect for players like Stephano and Thorzain who quit and used their earnings to fund their entry into university before they became too old to enter the job market.
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On June 06 2015 21:29 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 20:43 The_Australian wrote:
It was fine until the last two lines. The article even describes the many "glistening" trophies he has won. Which one is it BBC? Is it hard working people earning trophies and "winning everything in his field", or is it young people destroying their lives and bodies over "stupid" video games?
What about the comparison between athletes in other fields "destroying their lives"? Cyclists for example typically have a way higher chance of prostate injury or erectile dysfunction, yet it's a perfectly acceptable path to take in life.
Seems to me to be more contradictory BBC journalism.
I don't think the comparison with athletes is a good ones. Even though their careers are short, professional athletes don't retire before they are nearing fourty, while most progamers barely make it to the 25-year-old mark. Additionally, the latter usually sacrifice their education just to try to get into the progaming scene, a scene that can not yet provice stable salaries for the majority of the players. Look at Boxer: went from being a star to being a professional gambler. I have a lot of respect for players like Stephano and Thorzain who quit and used their earnings to fund their entry into university before they became too old to enter the job market.
It is a good comparison, because those sports would look exactly like this if there wouldn't be as much money to allow regulations that are made to protect their players/athletes. Also you are talking about those that made it. Those that doesn't usually have a bad education and took crippling damage to their body at around 18-26~. Once you make it pro you get the best healthcare there is, but before you are on your own.
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Well this was quite interesting.
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On June 06 2015 21:29 maartendq wrote:
I have a lot of respect for players like Stephano and Thorzain who quit and used their earnings to fund their entry into university before they became too old to enter the job market.
Well it's ofc up to them but i dont like the way of quitting something u love to do, they seem to do it just for the money with no special passion, if u really got passion for it then u dont quit for getting an education.. But i think it will be older and older progamers every year now, ppl will get that they can play much longer than most have done so far, too many quitting way too early, u dont get slower reactions if ure 30 yo, at least not that much so it could harm your gamingcarreer. Theyre just doing what their parents said they should do in life to be happy, "quit gaming and get a real job", it's always those lines, and im fucking tired of that crap, it's very sad gamers even today fall for this... Play longer, Play all your life, IF you really love it!! But i guess were not there yet, but in a few years maybe...
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 06 2015 21:29 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 20:43 The_Australian wrote:
It was fine until the last two lines. The article even describes the many "glistening" trophies he has won. Which one is it BBC? Is it hard working people earning trophies and "winning everything in his field", or is it young people destroying their lives and bodies over "stupid" video games?
What about the comparison between athletes in other fields "destroying their lives"? Cyclists for example typically have a way higher chance of prostate injury or erectile dysfunction, yet it's a perfectly acceptable path to take in life.
Seems to me to be more contradictory BBC journalism.
I don't think the comparison with athletes is a good ones. Even though their careers are short, professional athletes don't retire before they are nearing fourty, while most progamers barely make it to the 25-year-old mark. Additionally, the latter usually sacrifice their education just to try to get into the progaming scene, a scene that can not yet provice stable salaries for the majority of the players. Look at Boxer: went from being a star to being a professional gambler. I have a lot of respect for players like Stephano and Thorzain who quit and used their earnings to fund their entry into university before they became too old to enter the job market.
In a lot of countries, athletes do sacrifice their education. Just look at the average european soccer player, the vast majority of them has never gone remotely close to a university.
I think a massive reason why progamers retire earlier than professional athletes is simply that they get bored and stop enjoying what they do faster, which makes sense considering basically the only way to practice a videogame is to play it. Professional athletes on the other hand spend less time playing their sports and more exercising in a variety of ways.
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I know a few people with wicked scars... from Church League Slow Pitch Softball. So, rough that Flash had to deal with that, but it's likely caused by more than just his Starcraft play. Full Body Physical Health is always important, which is probably where the issue really first came about.
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Lol at all the nerd tears ITT. Gaming is unhealthy. Playing real sports is healthy. Get over it.
User was warned for this post
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On June 07 2015 00:46 NasusAndDraven wrote:
Lol at all the nerd tears ITT. Gaming is unhealthy. Playing real sports is healthy. Get over it.
Nothing says healthy like every pitcher in Major League Baseball getting Tommy John surgery as if it's a rite of passage!
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On June 07 2015 00:46 NasusAndDraven wrote:
Lol at all the nerd tears ITT. Gaming is unhealthy. Playing real sports is healthy. Get over it.
High level sport is just as good as high level gaming at breaking your body and making you an ugly old man -probably even worse, I'd rather be 50 year old Flash than 50 year old Gatlin, and no that's not because I know even 50 year old Flash would be infinitely more skilled than me ^^
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On June 06 2015 18:47 Vandrad wrote:
Lol pretty much every professional sport destroys your body.
I was thinking the same thing and I'm pretty disappointed that the article took that angle.
We could write articles for days about how traditional sports at the highest levels damages your body, and just about every traditional sport is far more damaging than SC2. But we still play and watch them.
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I didn't read the part where the journalist said that other sports do not cause injuries at professional level.. I am sure he knows that other sports can be more devastating to the body.
That said I do not understand why the journalist ends his article thinking that the e-sports scene is a serious problem. Nothing bad is happening and I find the level of dedication quite inspiring personally. Sure one can focus on the negative sides such as common wrist injuries and lack of activity for large parts of the day, but that is just being a right old negative nancy.
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It seems that only Terrans have the problem, all the top Terrans have had problems with this - Flash, MVP, Boxer, Taeja, Maru. The moral is play protoss or LoL ^^
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On June 06 2015 15:58 OtherWorld wrote:
That scar is huge for something made in the 21st century. Does anyone know what precisely he was being operated for? (I'm also interested in how playing SC 10+ hours/day can damage the arm, while I can see that it can easily damage wrists or shoulders/back I fail to imagine how for the arm)
As for the article, it's decent, nor very good nor very bad.
medial and/or lateral epicondylitis is possible playing this much.
the tendon attaches to the humerus in the elbow joint.
![[image loading]](http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/figures/A00068F01.jpg)
i recall Boxer having shoulder problems.
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dang if this guy thinks video games are dangerous wait until he hears about sports
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On June 07 2015 00:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 00:46 NasusAndDraven wrote:
Lol at all the nerd tears ITT. Gaming is unhealthy. Playing real sports is healthy. Get over it. High level sport is just as good as high level gaming at breaking your body and making you an ugly old man -probably even worse, I'd rather be 50 year old Flash than 50 year old Gatlin, and no that's not because I know even 50 year old Flash would be infinitely more skilled than me ^^
But to be completely fair physical sports are good at breaking your body precisely because they're physical, which means that they are expected to potentially damage your body, while eSports are not expected to be physical. The injuries you get from traditional sports are mostly either muscular or resulting from shocks (fractures or brain injuries) [edit : I guess injuries consequential to doping are valid too], while what most pro players get (afaik) are injuries related to the repetition of a movement, similar to what factory workers get. Thus I'm unsure if the comparison is valid.
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On June 07 2015 03:30 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 00:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 07 2015 00:46 NasusAndDraven wrote:
Lol at all the nerd tears ITT. Gaming is unhealthy. Playing real sports is healthy. Get over it. High level sport is just as good as high level gaming at breaking your body and making you an ugly old man -probably even worse, I'd rather be 50 year old Flash than 50 year old Gatlin, and no that's not because I know even 50 year old Flash would be infinitely more skilled than me ^^ But to be completely fair physical sports are good at breaking your body precisely because they're physical, which means that they are expected to potentially damage your body, while eSports are not expected to be physical. The injuries you get from traditional sports are mostly either muscular or resulting from shocks (fractures or brain injuries) [edit : I guess injuries consequential to doping are valid too], while what most pro players get (afaik) are injuries related to the repetition of a movement, similar to what factory workers get. Thus I'm unsure if the comparison is valid.
Playing a game in which you move your arm the same way over and over for a living should be expected to produce the problems associated with moving your arm the same way over and over.
Just as much as boxing should be expected to produce the problems associated with getting punched.
There is no difference.
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On June 07 2015 00:46 NasusAndDraven wrote:
Lol at all the nerd tears ITT. Gaming is unhealthy. Playing real sports is healthy. Get over it.
Why are you here?
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On June 07 2015 04:16 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 00:46 NasusAndDraven wrote:
Lol at all the nerd tears ITT. Gaming is unhealthy. Playing real sports is healthy. Get over it. Why are you here?
you can do other stuff on teamliquid.net than to just be in denial
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i thought it was pretty insightful. RSI can completely destroy a career and they don't have college education or anything to fall back on like most athletes. they are completely invested into progaming but it doesn't last long.
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On June 07 2015 04:23 NasusAndDraven wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 04:16 Caihead wrote:On June 07 2015 00:46 NasusAndDraven wrote:
Lol at all the nerd tears ITT. Gaming is unhealthy. Playing real sports is healthy. Get over it. Why are you here? you can do other stuff on teamliquid.net than to just be in denial
Pretty edgy bro. I'm sure concussions and steroids are way healthier than RSI.
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On June 07 2015 03:30 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 00:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 07 2015 00:46 NasusAndDraven wrote:
Lol at all the nerd tears ITT. Gaming is unhealthy. Playing real sports is healthy. Get over it. High level sport is just as good as high level gaming at breaking your body and making you an ugly old man -probably even worse, I'd rather be 50 year old Flash than 50 year old Gatlin, and no that's not because I know even 50 year old Flash would be infinitely more skilled than me ^^ But to be completely fair physical sports are good at breaking your body precisely because they're physical, which means that they are expected to potentially damage your body, while eSports are not expected to be physical. The injuries you get from traditional sports are mostly either muscular or resulting from shocks (fractures or brain injuries) [edit : I guess injuries consequential to doping are valid too], while what most pro players get (afaik) are injuries related to the repetition of a movement, similar to what factory workers get. Thus I'm unsure if the comparison is valid.
Overuse injuries are very common in physical sports even at very young age. Golfers elbow, tennis elbow, running knee and so on. Probably far more common than acute injuries.
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On June 07 2015 05:24 Terranist wrote:
they don't have college education or anything to fall back on like most athletes
Heh, not American Football. Due to the money (corruption) in College Football academic standards for the players is close to zero; it doesn't matter if you're dumb as bricks, if you can play football you can get pretty much a free pass through college
And since most NFL players bomb out of the league in 5 years or fewer, not only do you end up still dumb and unemployed, you end up concussed, and without a real college education
In hockey most players don't go to college and go straight to the minor leagues or NHL after age 18.
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On June 07 2015 09:25 Roadog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 05:24 Terranist wrote:
they don't have college education or anything to fall back on like most athletes Heh, not American Football. Due to the money (corruption) in College Football academic standards for the players is close to zero; it doesn't matter if you're dumb as bricks, if you can play football you can get pretty much a free pass through college And since most NFL players bomb out of the league in 5 years or fewer, not only do you end up still dumb and unemployed, you end up concussed, and without a real college education
I think your greatly overestimating how fraudulent educations for athletes are. most of them still get degrees so they still have something to fall back on. plus considering most know their not going to go professional I'm sure there are a few that take it seriously. admittedly graduation rates are about 20 percent lower overall than normal students but over half of them still get degrees. so the options are there if an athlete cares enough about it.
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On June 07 2015 09:25 Roadog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 05:24 Terranist wrote:
they don't have college education or anything to fall back on like most athletes Heh, not American Football. Due to the money (corruption) in College Football academic standards for the players is close to zero; it doesn't matter if you're dumb as bricks, if you can play football you can get pretty much a free pass through college And since most NFL players bomb out of the league in 5 years or fewer, not only do you end up still dumb and unemployed, you end up concussed, and without a real college education
I am not that over familiar with American football, but wouldn't 5 years in the NFL generate more income than an average college graduate makes in a lifetime?
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On June 07 2015 09:43 KrOmander wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 09:25 Roadog wrote:On June 07 2015 05:24 Terranist wrote:
they don't have college education or anything to fall back on like most athletes Heh, not American Football. Due to the money (corruption) in College Football academic standards for the players is close to zero; it doesn't matter if you're dumb as bricks, if you can play football you can get pretty much a free pass through college And since most NFL players bomb out of the league in 5 years or fewer, not only do you end up still dumb and unemployed, you end up concussed, and without a real college education I am not that over familiar with American football, but wouldn't 5 years in the NFL generate more income than an average college graduate makes in a lifetime?
They'd probably blow most of it considering the culture, at least Korean progamers tend to save what they make beyond shouting their friends chicken/pizza.
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On June 07 2015 09:43 KrOmander wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 09:25 Roadog wrote:On June 07 2015 05:24 Terranist wrote:
they don't have college education or anything to fall back on like most athletes Heh, not American Football. Due to the money (corruption) in College Football academic standards for the players is close to zero; it doesn't matter if you're dumb as bricks, if you can play football you can get pretty much a free pass through college And since most NFL players bomb out of the league in 5 years or fewer, not only do you end up still dumb and unemployed, you end up concussed, and without a real college education I am not that over familiar with American football, but wouldn't 5 years in the NFL generate more income than an average college graduate makes in a lifetime?
pro athletes in general have a difficult time dealing with finances. the nfl average minimum salary for active roster is (by year) 435,000 510,000 585,000 and 745,000 so 2.275 million dollars. generally however you can be cut at any time and many people don't even make it 5 years. so quite a bit of money but prob not enough to retire on especially for a 30 year old. the problem is a lot of people don't plan for being out after 5 years so they spend their money then when it dries up their spending habits continue and they don't have any new income.
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On June 07 2015 11:41 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 09:43 KrOmander wrote:On June 07 2015 09:25 Roadog wrote:On June 07 2015 05:24 Terranist wrote:
they don't have college education or anything to fall back on like most athletes Heh, not American Football. Due to the money (corruption) in College Football academic standards for the players is close to zero; it doesn't matter if you're dumb as bricks, if you can play football you can get pretty much a free pass through college And since most NFL players bomb out of the league in 5 years or fewer, not only do you end up still dumb and unemployed, you end up concussed, and without a real college education I am not that over familiar with American football, but wouldn't 5 years in the NFL generate more income than an average college graduate makes in a lifetime? pro athletes in general have a difficult time dealing with finances. the nfl average minimum salary for active roster is (by year) 435,000 510,000 585,000 and 745,000 so 2.275 million dollars. generally however you can be cut at any time and many people don't even make it 5 years. so quite a bit of money but prob not enough to retire on especially for a 30 year old. the problem is a lot of people don't plan for being out after 5 years so they spend their money then when it dries up their spending habits continue and they don't have any new income.
The other problem is the vultures. Many come from "economically challenged upbringings." If they ever make it primetime, every relative, casual acquaintance, and sadly, their closest friends and family, come out of the woodwork and hit them up for money, gifts, fundings, etc. There was one NFL player whose mother demanded 1 million dollars because she's the one who gave birth to him. Yowza.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On June 06 2015 15:32 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 15:20 NovemberstOrm wrote:On June 06 2015 13:42 stuchiu wrote:
I wonder why they always use this story. because flash? No I mean the mainstream esports flow chart: You can compete off games and make money? Insert random team/pro without any context on why anyone should care as example of people competing for money. Go into how gaming is probably dangerous for you. The End.
This was my thought as well, didn't they do this exact story about Mvp in like 2011? And again about WCG in maybe 2013?
On June 06 2015 20:23 Teoita wrote:
Meanwhile in 'murka, retired NFL players are just fine amirite
What a misinformed article.
The NFL not only injures your body but the body of your wife from what we have seen in the last year, at least gaming is just one person. 
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On June 07 2015 12:24 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2015 11:41 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On June 07 2015 09:43 KrOmander wrote:On June 07 2015 09:25 Roadog wrote:On June 07 2015 05:24 Terranist wrote:
they don't have college education or anything to fall back on like most athletes Heh, not American Football. Due to the money (corruption) in College Football academic standards for the players is close to zero; it doesn't matter if you're dumb as bricks, if you can play football you can get pretty much a free pass through college And since most NFL players bomb out of the league in 5 years or fewer, not only do you end up still dumb and unemployed, you end up concussed, and without a real college education I am not that over familiar with American football, but wouldn't 5 years in the NFL generate more income than an average college graduate makes in a lifetime? pro athletes in general have a difficult time dealing with finances. the nfl average minimum salary for active roster is (by year) 435,000 510,000 585,000 and 745,000 so 2.275 million dollars. generally however you can be cut at any time and many people don't even make it 5 years. so quite a bit of money but prob not enough to retire on especially for a 30 year old. the problem is a lot of people don't plan for being out after 5 years so they spend their money then when it dries up their spending habits continue and they don't have any new income. The other problem is the vultures. Many come from "economically challenged upbringings." If they ever make it primetime, every relative, casual acquaintance, and sadly, their closest friends and family, come out of the woodwork and hit them up for money, gifts, fundings, etc. There was one NFL player whose mother demanded 1 million dollars because she's the one who gave birth to him. Yowza.
yeah. plus these guys are super competitive and will sometimes invest the money in a buisness they know nothing about. ESPN had a really good 30 for 30 about athletes and money issues
http://espn.go.com/30for30/film?page=broke (not the actual film unfortunately but the page that talks about it.)
quick quote from it.
"According to a 2009 Sports Illustrated article, 60 percent of former NBA players are broke within five years of retirement. By the time they have been retired for two years, 78% of former NFL players have gone bankrupt or are under financial stress. "
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I was kind enough to send him an email, warning him that were other sports... sports where people used their entire bodies, and suffered far worse injuries. I warned him there is a even a sport where people punch each other in the face for entertainment.
I also told him that while the top SC2 players may stay up late at night and that seems like a serious problem, Michael Jordan used to stay up late at night in the gym in his quest to become the best. I prayed that he doesn't stay up too late one night writing an article, as that'd surely be a sign of a problem, not dedication to his job. Because going above and beyond like Flash and Michael Jordan did, and then becoming the best is surely a problem.
Or that could be why I've never heard of David Lee, because he isn't the best at what he does.
If you guys also want to pass along advice to him, his email is: dave.lee@bbc.co.uk
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lol and this moron journalist probably watches soccer where the guys headbutt each other into delirium in a corner kick and then get put right back in the game LOL. Players roll around on the ground like little girls to try to get the ref to make a false call.
But hey at least he admitted to preconceived bias right at the outset; "It seemed like the confirmation I'd been expecting".
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On June 06 2015 21:46 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 21:29 maartendq wrote:On June 06 2015 20:43 The_Australian wrote:
It was fine until the last two lines. The article even describes the many "glistening" trophies he has won. Which one is it BBC? Is it hard working people earning trophies and "winning everything in his field", or is it young people destroying their lives and bodies over "stupid" video games?
What about the comparison between athletes in other fields "destroying their lives"? Cyclists for example typically have a way higher chance of prostate injury or erectile dysfunction, yet it's a perfectly acceptable path to take in life.
Seems to me to be more contradictory BBC journalism.
I don't think the comparison with athletes is a good ones. Even though their careers are short, professional athletes don't retire before they are nearing fourty, while most progamers barely make it to the 25-year-old mark. Additionally, the latter usually sacrifice their education just to try to get into the progaming scene, a scene that can not yet provice stable salaries for the majority of the players. Look at Boxer: went from being a star to being a professional gambler. I have a lot of respect for players like Stephano and Thorzain who quit and used their earnings to fund their entry into university before they became too old to enter the job market. It is a good comparison, because those sports would look exactly like this if there wouldn't be as much money to allow regulations that are made to protect their players/athletes. Also you are talking about those that made it. Those that doesn't usually have a bad education and took crippling damage to their body at around 18-26~. Once you make it pro you get the best healthcare there is, but before you are on your own.
Correlation doesn't mean causation. Just because players retire in their 20s, doesn't mean it is because of "crippling body damage." What a coincidence that in Korea, the country with the biggest amount of salaried players, there is among the longest mandatory military service. And as Tastosis tell us all the time, nobody comes back from that.
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On June 06 2015 21:29 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 20:43 The_Australian wrote:
It was fine until the last two lines. The article even describes the many "glistening" trophies he has won. Which one is it BBC? Is it hard working people earning trophies and "winning everything in his field", or is it young people destroying their lives and bodies over "stupid" video games?
What about the comparison between athletes in other fields "destroying their lives"? Cyclists for example typically have a way higher chance of prostate injury or erectile dysfunction, yet it's a perfectly acceptable path to take in life.
Seems to me to be more contradictory BBC journalism.
I don't think the comparison with athletes is a good ones. Even though their careers are short, professional athletes don't retire before they are nearing fourty, while most progamers barely make it to the 25-year-old mark. Additionally, the latter usually sacrifice their education just to try to get into the progaming scene, a scene that can not yet provice stable salaries for the majority of the players. Look at Boxer: went from being a star to being a professional gambler. I have a lot of respect for players like Stephano and Thorzain who quit and used their earnings to fund their entry into university before they became too old to enter the job market.
Yeah but this is only recent when you look at it. Not so long ago, in swimming competitions, you were pretty much done at 21. Matt Biondi who was a true legend retired at 23. I think Alexander Popov was the first one to win something at 25+ years old which was unheard of at the time.
And even today, if you're not Phelps, you really have nothing in your hands when you retire even if you were a top 20 world swimmer.
I'm not even talking about ice skating or gynmastics here.
What comes after retirement is also very hard in "normal" sports, how many mental breakdowns? how many drug addictions? how many suicides? you really think no ex-pro footballers are runing their lives trying to become poker champions?
It is indeed very similar to me.
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On June 07 2015 13:18 BronzeKnee wrote:
I was kind enough to send him an email, warning him that were other sports... sports where people used their entire bodies, and suffered far worse injuries. I warned him there is a even a sport where people punch each other in the face for entertainment.
I also told him that while the top SC2 players may stay up late at night and that seems like a serious problem, Michael Jordan used to stay up late at night in the gym in his quest to become the best. I prayed that he doesn't stay up too late one night writing an article, as that'd surely be a sign of a problem, not dedication to his job. Because going above and beyond like Flash and Michael Jordan did, and then becoming the best is surely a problem.
Or that could be why I've never heard of David Lee, because he isn't the best at what he does.
If you guys also want to pass along advice to him, his email is: dave.lee@bbc.co.uk
This is an excellent summary of the misinformation and false conclusions contained in this article. The whole piece is pure prejudice and little more.
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On June 06 2015 15:52 Pontius Pirate wrote:
What a shitty article. Fuck you, BBC. Now I'm worried about the quality of their reporting in other fields. Maybe it's just as bad, but I don't realize it, since I've never been to Syria, nor understand the intricacies of the struggle in Darfur, or have a firm grasp of the inside view of Venezuelan economics.
You should never take anything from any news site as complete truth.
Learn about topics from multiple locations and form your own truth.
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I think the article was quite good. Of course having followed the scene much more closely, we can find it a bit shallow.
As for hardcore gaming being a problem in particular in South Korea, one must be in serious denial not to acknowledge there is a part of truth. And yes, the same could be said about other activities when they become a compulsive escape from reality (I'm not really talking about pro-gamers themselves). Some gaming is totally fine, even a lot of gaming can be totally fine, but your whole youth in front of a computer screen playing Starcraft or LoL instead of acquiring an education, social skill, etc, is not. And from what I know, gaming addiction (usually coupled with severe depression) has basically become a condition in the Far East.
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On June 08 2015 18:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think the article was quite good. Of course having followed the scene much more closely, we can find it a bit shallow.
As for hardcore gaming being a problem in particular in South Korea, one must be in serious denial not to acknowledge there is a part of truth. And yes, the same could be said about other activities when they become a compulsive escape from reality (I'm not really talking about pro-gamers themselves). Some gaming is totally fine, even a lot of gaming can be totally fine, but your whole youth in front of a computer screen playing Starcraft or LoL instead of acquiring an education, social skill, etc, is not. And from what I know, gaming addiction (usually coupled with severe depression) has basically become a condition in the Far East.
I think you don't know what education looks like in south Korea. A lot of troubles comes from the fact that they receive too much education, youth in S. Korea have some hard time, Ministry of Education even tried to pass a law to forbid private course to teach more than the actual school program to stop pressure on the youth, but parents still try to put more and more pressure, cause it's how the system works and how people perceive education in South Korea.
I've seen with my own eyes 12 years old kids in uniforms getting out of their school at 11pm. Got friends that were teaching private course to 10 years old kids at 7 am so they had 2 extra hours of working before going to the shcool. 15-16 hours is not something rare. As a result, if they have the best results in high school worldwide, Korean are bad when it comes to the university level, because at 20 years old, students are burn out, none of them wants to go for research and they have no curiosity for what they are taught in general. I believe the current Korean government put this issue on top of their concerns, dunno if it'll change quick though.
"Gaming addiction drawing kids off education" just does not reflect reality in S Korea. If anything, gaming is more an escape route for a very high pressure system.
Read for example : this NYT article that explain things better than me
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On June 08 2015 19:56 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 18:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think the article was quite good. Of course having followed the scene much more closely, we can find it a bit shallow.
As for hardcore gaming being a problem in particular in South Korea, one must be in serious denial not to acknowledge there is a part of truth. And yes, the same could be said about other activities when they become a compulsive escape from reality (I'm not really talking about pro-gamers themselves). Some gaming is totally fine, even a lot of gaming can be totally fine, but your whole youth in front of a computer screen playing Starcraft or LoL instead of acquiring an education, social skill, etc, is not. And from what I know, gaming addiction (usually coupled with severe depression) has basically become a condition in the Far East. I think you don't know what education looks like in south Korea. A lot of troubles comes from the fact that they receive too much education, youth in S. Korea have some hard time, Ministry of Education even tried to pass a law to forbid private course to teach more than the actual school program to stop pressure on the youth, but parents still try to put more and more pressure, cause it's how the system works and how people perceive education in South Korea. I've seen with my own eyes 12 years old kids in uniforms getting out of their school at 11pm. Got friends that were teaching private course to 10 years old kids at 7 am so they had 2 extra hours of working before going to the shcool. 15-16 hours is not something rare. As a result, if they have the best results in high school worldwide, Korean are bad when it comes to the university level, because at 20 years old, students are burn out, none of them wants to go for research and they have no curiosity for what they are taught in general. I believe the current Korean government put this issue on top of their concerns, dunno if it'll change quick though. "Gaming addiction drawing kids off education" just does not reflect reality in S Korea. If anything, gaming is more an escape route for a very high pressure system. Read for example : this NYT article that explain things better than me
The korean society is hyper competitive. Its not only about education, but also beauty, money and generel every field you will find, so also computer games. I dont think in Europe or US you will find any field, were the competition between members of the society is bigger then S.K. And due to the fact, that knowledge and education are seen as key elements of private succes, parents push their children very hard. But also the children push themselfs for succes over the other, either by learning more or in other fields. And if you want to be the best in your local PC Bang, you go alot of hours straight into it. Its not a real PC Gaming addiction, its more a addicition to be the best in one field at least, to feel success. I dont know a country where more people (male and female) do more plastic surgery then S.K., it is not compareable to more cooperative societys. That shall not mean Ks are egomaniacs or something, it is just the build up of their society to competete with other, the wish to be on top and the will to work very hard for it and spend less time for your own good.
For the hurting damage of Esport: Every professional athlet will abuse his body. Footballers and Ice-Hockey Defensive players have alot of brain damage problems related to alot of concussions, they gain during their sport. Runners ruin their knees to certain degree, soccerplayers alot of body parts during the game, faces due to elbow hits, knees during the game and all other kind of body parts. U.S. often makes fun of soccer being a sport of pussys and they roll over the field all day every day, but serious injurys happen there also.
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On June 08 2015 15:31 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 21:46 FeyFey wrote:On June 06 2015 21:29 maartendq wrote:On June 06 2015 20:43 The_Australian wrote:
It was fine until the last two lines. The article even describes the many "glistening" trophies he has won. Which one is it BBC? Is it hard working people earning trophies and "winning everything in his field", or is it young people destroying their lives and bodies over "stupid" video games?
What about the comparison between athletes in other fields "destroying their lives"? Cyclists for example typically have a way higher chance of prostate injury or erectile dysfunction, yet it's a perfectly acceptable path to take in life.
Seems to me to be more contradictory BBC journalism.
I don't think the comparison with athletes is a good ones. Even though their careers are short, professional athletes don't retire before they are nearing fourty, while most progamers barely make it to the 25-year-old mark. Additionally, the latter usually sacrifice their education just to try to get into the progaming scene, a scene that can not yet provice stable salaries for the majority of the players. Look at Boxer: went from being a star to being a professional gambler. I have a lot of respect for players like Stephano and Thorzain who quit and used their earnings to fund their entry into university before they became too old to enter the job market. It is a good comparison, because those sports would look exactly like this if there wouldn't be as much money to allow regulations that are made to protect their players/athletes. Also you are talking about those that made it. Those that doesn't usually have a bad education and took crippling damage to their body at around 18-26~. Once you make it pro you get the best healthcare there is, but before you are on your own. What a coincidence that in Korea, the country with the biggest amount of salaried players, there is among the longest mandatory military service. And as Tastosis tell us all the time, nobody comes back from that.
Stardust did.
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And nobody noticed that proffesional athletes are destroying their bodies as well?
Thats smoking kills and its still legal?
That alcohol is more dangerous than weed?
How about we talk on how working 8 hours a day in ANY job is as bad for you? (eyes if you use computer, back if you lift heavy things/sit all day, you know, things like that).
How about we make some news about how Taxes are always increasing and the politicians can take the money and do nothing?
Oh right, I forgot, its BBC.
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On June 08 2015 22:52 iloveav wrote:
And nobody noticed that proffesional athletes are destroying their bodies as well?
Thats smoking kills and its still legal?
That alcohol is more dangerous than weed?
How about we talk on how working 8 hours a day in ANY job is as bad for you? (eyes if you use computer, back if you lift heavy things/sit all day, you know, things like that).
How about we make some news about how Taxes are always increasing and the politicians can take the money and do nothing?
Oh right, I forgot, its BBC.
I think I'm maybe the second or third person here who's noticed that the people on this forum making the types of comments shown above are basically attacking a strawman. I don't see any point in the article in which the author professed that professional sports are a healthy alternative, or that the problem is only with esports. Or anything concerning alcohol, drugs, or overworking yourself in any other career.
Everyone here has correctly argued that there are many problems, if not much more severe problems, with traditional sports. Okay...but how does that invalidate any of the points made against pro-gaming? These are not mutually exclusive truths.
As it stands it probably does screw over a lot of people who believe they will be the best, only to realize the competition is a lot rougher than they thought, and they end up spending most of their youth making a mediocre amount of money and coming out virtually unemployable, which ends up with them playing professional poker. This is clearly not a desirable place to be.
I'm not sure there's anything that we can do about it, or whether there is anything we should do. At the end of the day you have to respect people's rights to follow their passion, be it in esports of professional sports.
Edit: The author *did* make an over-generalization at the beginning of the article but he quickly changed his mind:
But Mr Kang sees it very differently. They're athletes, he argues, and injuries happen. One of his colleagues later suggested that if I'd been interviewing the world's most-decorated marathon champion, I wouldn't be surprised if they had damaged knees...He had a point.
Later on he just talks about the impact of gaming and addictions on Korean society in general - so he's not referring to esports directly anymore (at least it doesn't seem like it).
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On June 08 2015 23:56 radscorpion9 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 22:52 iloveav wrote:
And nobody noticed that proffesional athletes are destroying their bodies as well?
Thats smoking kills and its still legal?
That alcohol is more dangerous than weed?
How about we talk on how working 8 hours a day in ANY job is as bad for you? (eyes if you use computer, back if you lift heavy things/sit all day, you know, things like that).
How about we make some news about how Taxes are always increasing and the politicians can take the money and do nothing?
Oh right, I forgot, its BBC. As it stands it probably does screw over a lot of people who believe they will be the best, only to realize the competition is a lot rougher than they thought, and they end up spending most of their youth making a mediocre amount of money and coming out virtually unemployable, which ends up with them playing professional poker. This is clearly not a desirable place to be.
I'm not entirely sure the author made this argument, unless I missed it. The article screams preconceived bias from the start and his reasoning with respect to SC2 pro-gaming amounts to "OMG gamers playing a lot therefore bad".
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Actually that was a decent take on Korean pro gaming. He didn't seem very biased, but the article itself was pretty shallow and not of high quality. He acknowledged the point that injuries occur in all sorts of sports. He also acknowledged that professional gamers can (and do) lead happy lives. So I don't get the criticism in this thread.
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EPT
