Making a list like this was always problematic. With nearly 5 years of gameplay there is a huge amount of information to parse. First, there is prestige of a tournament, measuring and making judgements on the GSL as compared to international LANS, tournament formats, and paths taken to the Championships. Next, the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats: the increased talent pool in modern times, the mass migration of KeSPA pros, and then the mass retirement of former KeSPA players and ESF players. Consistency over a long period of time as compared to peak/clutch has often been considered one of the most important measures, but their effect on the game itself is equally important. We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
Another thing to keep in mind is the tiering of tournaments. A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments. Blizzcon is at the highest because after 2013 it became the end all for the year, increasing the amount of pressure to win it. GSL is next as it has had the best format since Jan 2011, has the most preparation per round and has the best competition. The format and amount of players is what puts it slightly above the other Korean LANs like OSL, SSL, KeSPA/Hot6ix Cup, WCS KR 2012 and WCG KR. International tournaments are roughly below them, though depending on the player pool it can go all the way up being very close to GSL levels of prestige if many top players attended the event.
It is inevitable that many will argue for or against the inclusion or exclusion of certain players in the overall top 15 depending on what criteria you’ve used to judge their placing. However, as there is no definitive list to argue for or against, this is my attempt to codify a list of the all time greats as of this very moment.
“Life is the best Zerg right now and will end his career as the best Zerg there has ever been.” - Soulkey interview with ToD
At the very end of WoL I made a prediction. I said that the future of SC2 would be written by three players: Life, Taeja and Creator. I believe many thought the same thing. Creator was fighting on par with the two best protoss players on earth, but was incredibly young and had time to grow. Taeja was another prodigy, and he was one of the few terran players to stay relevant and even win a Premier Tournament during the BL/infestor era. Life was a world beater. Life was utterly unstoppable except in ZvZ, where he had been tripped up multiple times during the latter half of 2012. Yet even then you could not help but think Life was destined to follow in Mvp's footsteps and become the next greatest player on earth.
Taeja fulfilled my expectations perfectly. Creator made me look like a fool as he crashed from one of the Top 3 protoss into the ground immediately upon HotS’ release. I should have chosen his teammate Maru. And Life?
I thought for certain Life was going to continue his reign of terror. He had won the first Premier event of HotS in a meta that zergs were notoriously weak in and he won that MLG Winter Championship in spectacular fashion. Even going into history's greatest group of death, I still believed he would prevail. He didn't. And in the end he lost that famous series to Sjow and that was the final passing of any hopes in thinking Life would continue his reign from 2012.
And even then he was still one of the better zergs in Korea—though the gulf between Soulkey and the rest in 2013 and soO and the rest in 2014 was a gigantic chasm of skill. Yet one day in 2014, Life realized he had somehow accumulated enough points to make it to Blizzcon. And he decided (just like before his reign in 2012) that it was time to take the game seriously. He came into Blizzcon as one of the underdogs. He left the as the undisputed "strongest" player on earth.
He turned what was supposed to be the hardest tournament of the year into a cake walk. Barring the series against Taeja, Life may as well have been playing Code B players. Life stared sternly at Zest and Zest crumpled into a heap. He breathed at San and San collapsed like a pile of twigs. His series against MMA was like stealing candy from a child. Sure you felt bad for the kid, but Life wanted his candy and MMA tried to bite him. The only thing that makes Life’s Blizzcon run more memorable than sOs’ (in terms of content) was his series against Taeja. It was like an avalanche stopping a tidal wave. It was two forces of nature colliding as the second and third greatest players fought each other for dominion of all of SC2. And in that battle, Life was reformed and returned to the peak he had in 2012.
It is obvious to everyone and it should be obvious to you that Life is the heir apparent. After Blizzcon he won IEM Taipei. He won his GSL, lost in NSSL semi-finals, and lost his IEM WC in the Ro16 because of INnoVation. He is murdering everyone and the only people that have stopped him so far have been INnoVation (Top 1-2 terran) and Dream (Top 1 ZvT). And even then they were close sets of 2-3 and 3-4. He will be the one that will finally surpass Mvp. He is the chosen one. For Life there are no more rivals. The Leenock in 2012 has fallen and it looks like he can never reach that place again. Mvp has been dormant for years as he has finally succumbed to the injuries. Taeja, the ever present thorn in his side has finally declared retirement and doesn't appear to have taken the game seriously since Blizzcon.
There is no more Life vs Leenock, no more Life vs Mvp, no more Life vs Taeja. There is no longer one man that can stop Life, now it will be the entire world. From now until the end of HotS, it is Life against the world. Life vs Zest, Life vs INnoVation, Life vs Maru, Life vs Dream, Life vs soO, Life vs Solar, Life vs herO, Life vs Stats. And in a battle between Life and the world, my money is on Life.
Play Style:
Life was born to attack. It is as simple as that. He knows he has better attacking instincts than his opponents and he tries to crush them whether it be in the early game, mid game or late game. The other thing Life loves to do is counter-attack. He loves it when a protoss or terran or zerg moves out and he instantly backstabs them. Of course it isn’t as simple as that, but that is the basics of understanding Life.
A few things keep it all together. First is his micro. He has arguably some of the best ling micro of any zerg and is great at finding positions of better engagements. Second is his sense of timing. He has a different kind of timer to everyone else and hits at awkward transitioning points against the other races. These transitioning points are when a player moves out, a player is likely to go back to macro or when he takes control of a player's eyes on one side of the map and attacks the other. The third thing is his reactive intelligence. Life knows how and when to react to every build and when he doesn’t he has almost always been able to improv an answer as to how to defeat the opponent. And finally it is his composure. Life very rarely cracks and has almost always played to his level.
If there was a weakness at all, it is the fact that Life is so good at attacking. There are times when a player can defend it. The two biggest examples are Taeja and Dream. When you see a player defend Life’s attacks, it is like watching Life punch gigantic holes into the ocean. They are huge strong attacks that could kill any other terran. But if a player can survive it, if a player can defend it, dissuade it, avoid it, they can take away Life’s greatest strength and take the series from him. This is why I think it is wrong to say something like Life threw the series against Sjow or he threw the series against Dream. It is in his very nature to be aggressive, to fight to conquer. It is what has gotten him so far and you cannot extol his triumphs and deride his losses if he is playing at the exact same level and executing the exact same kind of attack to achieve both.
Difference between Life and Taeja
This at least was easier. Not only does Life have the prestige, he has the recent results, he has close to the same number of Championships and most importantly, path for path, he ekes out ahead of Taeja by a decent amount. In terms of consistency Taeja is superior as he was a top 5 Terran for 2.5 years, 1.5 of which as the Top 1 terran. Life was a top 5 zerg for the same amount of time, but the gulf between him and Soulkey in 2013 was gigantic. It was the exact same gulf between Nestea and Zenio back in 2010. And in 2014 soO was the best zerg by far for almost the entire year and the gulf between him and Life wasn’t much smaller than that (not counting his resurgence at Blizzcon). Taeja on the other hand could be counted on to best any player in the world for all 2.5 years of his consistency, so in that and that alone Taeja was superior. What it came down to was Life’s peak. His peak level was so high that he won the biggest tournaments in succession and what ended up happening was after balancing the paths they took, Life just simply put had a few more significant results to put him firmly ahead.
Life Tier 1: GSL Season 4 Code S 2012 - 1st - Nestea, Seed, MKP, Taeja, Mvp MLG Fall 2012 - 1st - Violet, Taeja, Flash, Leenock Blizz Cup 2012 - 1st - Sniper, Rain, DRG, Leenock, PartinG MLG Winter Championship - 1st - Polt, Last, MC, Flash DH Bucharest - Top 4 - Supernova, loss to Taeja DH Winter - 2nd - MMA, Polt, StarDust, JYP, Naniwa, INnoVation, loss to Taeja, loss to Taeja again GSL Season 1 2014 - Top 4 - RorO twice, Maru, loss to soO IEM Toronto - Top 4 - Scarlett, MC, First, loss to Zest Blizzcon 2014 - 1st- Zest, San, Taeja, MMA DH Winter 2014 - 2nd - Taeja, San, Leenock, Bunny, First, loss to ForGG, Taeja, loss to ForGG SSL - Top 4 - Classic, herO, Dear, loss to Dream GSL Season 1 Code S 2015 - 1st - GuMiho twice, YoDa, Soulkey, INnoVation, herO, PartinG IEM Taipei - 1st - ForGG, Soulkey, HyuN, PartinG, Maru
Tier 2: Iron Squid 2 - 1st - Creator, Leenock, MKP, DRG IEM NY 2013 - 1st - loss to HyuN, Zest twice (pre Zest godmode), HerO, Curious, Naniwa DH Bucharest 2014 - 1st - Leenock, StarDust, INnoVation, Impact
Tier 3: ASUS Northcon - Top 4 - INnoVation, VortiX, loss to Scarlett
#1 | Mvp, Creating the Incredible Miracle
Achievements: Tier 1: GSL WC - 1st August 2011 Code S - 1st GSL October 2011 Code S - 2nd GSL Nov 2011 - Top 4 Blizzcon 2011 - 1st GSL Season 2 Code S 2012 - 1st WCG Korea - 1st WCS EU Season 1 2013 - 1st WCS Season 1 Finals - Top 4 MLG Providence - Top 4 Blizz Cup 2012 - Top 4 GSL Season 4 Code S 2012 - 2nd
That small dream would one day spark the beginning of the greatest SC2 player to have ever played the game. Growing up, Mvp’s family was poor, but he was still able to play Brood War. Because of that his father saw his talent and pushed Mvp forward to first become a BW pro, and then eventually become a SC2 pro. That was how the first year of SC2 was written.
And in that year, Mvp dominated like none other. He won three GSL titles, 1 MLG, 1 WCG Korea, WCG and Blizzcon. He was de-facto the single best player in the world and he did it by beating all of the other best players in the world to get there again and again and again.
After having the greatest year of his pro gaming career, Mvp knew time was running out. He had gotten an injury, one that could never go away. One that ate at him for the rest of his pro gaming career. (http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=4047287)
Mvp: The fact is that my neck condition is really severe. Because of the pains in my spine, sometimes my arm will go numb (T/N: Like paralysis numb) too. My shoulders feel terrible. Sometimes, I can't even pick up the mouse. There's no choice. I just have to cut down on my practice time. I need to constantly think of new strategies and builds, and test them through practice, but it is really tough to practice. My teeth would be clenched as I sit in front of the computer, but the pain would inevitably force me to stop. To be honest, if a professional gamer can't even go about practicing properly, how can he improve? It's quite a miracle to even be able to maintain at a particular level. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/371249-interview-lg-im_mvp-pt-2-neck-pains-and-family
Yet how could he stop? His family was poor and for the first time in his gaming career he was making enough money to support them. And yet retirement was inevitable. With an injury this significant, it would only get harder and harder and harder to practice each day. And the practice he did get would be bad practice as he'd constantly be distracted by the pain. The gap between him and his peers had shrunk, especially since players like DRG and MMA were catching up and an entire new wave of players was bound to rise. Mvp was in a battle against time. He had fulfilled his dream of getting a house, but he wanted to do more for his family which had supported him until then. He didn't want to go out like this, letting the whims of fate rob him of his pro-gaming career before his time.
Could Mvp do it? Could he make a miracle happen when all signs were pointing against him? He knew it was possible; after all, he had seen with his own eyes how Nestea created the first miracle of SC2 with his own career. It was then time for Mvp to create the second.
Heading into 2012, Mvp held no illusions. In his own words from a 2012 interview: "To be honest, I think that among the players taking part in the GSL, my ability is of a lower rank."
He knew without a shadow of a doubt that his time had passed. At the time and even now, I’d have put Mvp as a Ro32 Code S player, on the same level of Ensnare in mid 2011. Even if you looked at the content of his games alone you could see a marked difference in how he was winning his games compared to when he was in dominant form. During his 2011 run he was destroying people off his mechanics and safe play alone. He was like Zest if Zest had better micro. He was like INnoVation if INnoVation had stronger strategic thinking. He was like Taeja if Taeja knew how to perfectly plan a series.
Yet he had lost it all and in his wake he knew that he only had three things left in his arsenal: his intelligence, his will and his experience. With these three pieces alone he was going to do the impossible. He was going to create an incredible miracle.
In GSL Season 2, he barely scraped by both group stages (losing a set to Naniwa and HerO in each group). It was a time of protoss revolution, a time when protoss was learning and creating and pushing forward a multitude of new builds, compositions, reactions, timings and metas. In that time Naniwa was playing the best games of his life. In that time Mvp was playing some of the worst games of his life in his worst matchup. The pros, fans and experts predicted Naniwa to win in a close series, maybe 3-1 or 3-2, when they met again in the quarter finals. Instead, Mvp won.
In the next round, he played PartinG, who was, at that time, playing the best PvT in the world. Mvp had gotten by Naniwa because he had the perfect read and attacked his greed. That meant nothing to PartinG and going into it was utterly confident in his victory claiming a 3-0 victory, “Or maybe 3-1, because you know it’s Mvp.” Again, Mvp won.
Squirtle was playing the best protoss in the world and was by consensus the single best player in the world. He had seen both of Mvp’s series earlier and had seen all of Mvp’s TvPs that season. Everyone favored Squirtle. Squirtle favored Squirtle. They had a miniature pre-show where they had gathered pros, casters and fans and every single one of them down to the last man chose Squirtle to win. Who could blame them? After all, Mvp’s mechanics were still that of a Ro32 player at best. He had prepared well for Naniwa, and he had used pure psychological warfare to break PartinG’s soul. Maybe, just maybe, Mvp could win if he created an entirely new strategy, if he completely controlled the psychological warfare from beginning to end and if he caught Squirtle by surprise with a plethora of unpredictable builds. He did, and that was how Mvp created the miracle of his 2012 Season 2 victory.
“I think a match of that quality and emotion, even when you include BW matches, is hard to find. I could feel the chills and emotions. Not just this match, but the one before it with the battlecruisers, the atmosphere was perfect. It was the best match hands down.” -TheMarine
One miracle like that could last a lifetime, but this was Mvp. And once more he created a miracle. Once more he dug out inspiration from his mind to find his way to the top. This time he recreated mech in order to defeat the BL/infestor, and won IEM Cologne by creating an entirely new build the world was not ready for.
He then went into GSL Season 4 Ro32. He barely scraped out of groups, this time by defeating his long standing rival MMA and reversing the triangle. In the Ro16, he barely beat JYP and then abused the fact that MKP was afraid of his shadow to make it to the Ro8. There he met Symbol, a player people were touting as the next great zerg, the next in line to DRG. A complete macro zerg that had beaten the entire IM team in the greatest reverse sweep in history. Symbol was favored by the fans and the experts to be a 2:1 favorite at the least. Mvp crushed him in a performance that hearkened back to his glory days in 2011; he crushed Symbol on every front.
He then had to face Rain, a Top 3 protoss with no equals. Mvp lost the first game on a massive error and it appeared as though he was done. Yet this was when Mvp's mind games started to take affect. Mvp all-ined twice in a row. First it was to instill in the mind of Rain that Mvp was in an aggressive stance. Second it was a decent gamble since one of the two was bound to work. He reached game 4 after winning one all-in and losing the next. It set up game 4 perfectly as Mvp took an economic gamble realizing that Rain would play extra defensively. Mvp lept ahead and drew the series even. In the final game, Mvp knew that Rain was scared and once again got away with a triple orbital build. Shaken, Rain resorted to DTs, but Mvp sensed what the SKT Protoss had planned and prepared to defend. He repelled the DTs and crashed down the gates with an SCV pull to reach the finals once more.
And there he met Life, the second greatest player of all time and in the BL/infestor meta. It was a composition that better players with able bodies could not solve, but Mvp—the man and his broken body—knew the trials of the impossible more than anyone else. And he came up with an answer. He tailored a mech build to counter Life's early ling aggression and to strike exactly during the morphing phase of Life's BL transition. He did it for 7 straight games, either because he knew it was his best weapon or because it was all his body was able to do. Against belief, the second greatest player on earth combined with the power of BL/infestor was brought to the very brink of despair, brought to a deciding 7th game. Though he would lose to his heir apparent, the man with a broken body had carried his bones further than anyone could have imagined. That was Mvp's third miracle.
He had forced his way to victory three times against all odds and against his own body, against better players and against the very meta itself. His mechanics were that off a Code S castaway, and if this had been any other man he would have stopped. Most great players would have never been able to make the first miracle run happen at all. The greatest players of all time could have, perhaps, conjured one miracle run. Mvp had made three miracles. And then he created a fourth.
In the first season of 2013, Mvp moved to WCS EU. He won the tournament midst tepid expectations, and then returned to Korea for the Season 1 Finals. He advanced from the group stages and faced ForGG, a player that had a 94% winrate in TvT. Mvp crushed him. He then had to face the consensus best player on earth, INnoVation. INnoVation was, in many ways, the complete opposite of Mvp. He was KeSPA trained and had god-like mechanics. He was the most skilled player we had ever seen at that point, and he was an aggressive war machine in a meta (the hellbat drop era) that favored his style extremely well. Mvp had spent the last 1.5 years using only his intellect, his willpower, and his experience to win matches. This was a monumental mismatch, and Mvp was once again the underdog. TvT at that point in time was very much a match of mechanics. With the new speed boost it meant that players were forced to simultaneously attack, defend, and micro on multiple fronts, thus leaving Mvp in a hole before the game had even started.
In game 2, that nightmare scenario happened. INnoVation killed 23 workers leaving Mvp with 9. INnoVation had 30 workers to Mvp's 9. In a mirror matchup where you can't catch up on workers with either chrono boost or inject. But isn't that what always happens to Mvp? Dead in the water, Mvp decided to create one last miracle. This would be his tombstone, a last reminder in the game of HotS that there will always be only one King. They went into the mid game with INnoVation up 40 supply, and the Machine tried in vain to end the game. Mvp defended with increasing desperation, but each round Mvp closed the supply gap by a handful at a time. He maximized every mistake and made sure that INnoVation could not kill him immediately. Somehow, someway, he reached a max army, scouted perfectly, and evened the game by hitting a perfect timing. From there he showed INnoVation that mechanics weren't everything. That mental fortitude, grace under pressure, will power and strategic decision making were worth so much more when you needed to force a comeback.
But no miracle can last forever. In a dying blaze of glory against one of the most mechanically talented players of all time, a player who none of the best players in all of Korea could even scratch except for Soulkey. Mvp won a game 20 scvs down and nearly won the series. This was Mvp's last miracle.
I once wrote how IDs in esports are a unique phenomenon that could shed light on a player. By itself the name Mvp is an innocuous, if optimistic, name. And yet how fitting is it that the man named Mvp joined IM to create the hardest miracle year anyone has ever seen in the history of SC2?
I have great respect and admiration for all players, both foreign and Korean. I have watched from the very beginning in 2010 to now. I was here for Fruitdealer’s first miracle to Life’s GSL victory over PartinG. And in all of that time I can say this without a shadow of a doubt: there is only one man I have ever recognized as “The King” and his name is Mvp.
Play Style:
"And when I was watching Mvp games, I didn't have high expectations either. In a way I did personally root against Mvp back then. But to win 2 games against Innovation's prime, his performance was amazing. And to evaluate Mvp's past matches, there was a difference between Mvp and other players when it came to their thoughts. Normally, when the plan they were guarding fails, that's game over for most players. But Mvp constantly changes his plans during the match. When he feels like something doesn't work he takes a detour, his processing speed is very quick. So he can think 'I fell behind this much here but if I gain this much here I can win.' The fact this this process is very versatile allows for more emotion in his matches." - TheMarine, Brood War Analyst/Caster and former Pro-gamer Star 'Hangshow' Season4_Ep 08
The most important thing to understand about Mvp’s playstyle is that he started off as an incredibly strong mechanical player who liked to play safe solid strategies because he wanted to maximize the effect of his mechanics as well as his superior understanding of the game. From there, he became terran's biggest early innovator for all three matchups and created the basics and the fundamentals from which all terrans have come to understand their race. There is no other player besides Nestea that has been as influential in the development of their race’s future and present.
In TvT he created and refined mech both against bio and against other mech. In ZvT he took MKP’s innovations with marine control and gave it a safe and solid backbone of tank support fire. He was the creator of the most important opener in TvZ, hellion-banshee, and was the father of both the mech and bio transitions from it. In TvZ he also created mass ghosts and subsequently got them nerfed. In TvP he was responsible for the SCV pull, and for that INnoVation and Flash are eternally grateful.
Analysis of Mvp's Mech build by Engine, GSL caster + Show Spoiler +
The reason why previous mechanic builds could not be the mainstream build is that they had a severe weakness to certain timings. One is when Zerg teched up to Lair and another is when Hive is done.
When Terran players continuously make Thors and Hellions, speed-up Roach drop or Nydus could end the game. But when Terran makes too many Seige Tanks, scared of roach attacks, surprise Mutalisks do lots of damage. So when Terrans try to go defensive, they can never have a lead during the game. Furthermore, going defensively can give Zerg too much time to tech to Broodlords.
But MVP's recent mechanic build improvised on that weakness. The key point is Banshees. Normally, producing only two banshee is the standard. These two Banshees can be easily dealt with Queens and while they may be annoying Zerg players can go for Ling-Roach push. However MVP produces Banshees continuously and when 4-5 Banshees are produced, their firing power can easily kill roaches and banelings. What Zerg can do against this is producing lots of lings to push, ignoring banshees. However ,MVP makes unbelievable amount of Hellions. He uses these Hellions to defend if Zerg pushes with lings, and if not, he goes for drone kills.
This means that ground attacks from Zerg is prevented. Therefore Terran can easily take 6 gas much earlier than the standard timing. Then the build delays seige tank production and rather produce lots of Thors. One disadvantage of this is Banshees are only strong around Terran's base or the centre of the map. They can't support Thors if Terran decides to push as Queens can take on Banshees and Banshees won't be able to help to kill roaches. This means that Terran also can't push out which makes the game to go for longer.
While MVP's build is great against offensive Zerg players but against defensive player, it's not that effective. So MVP tries to overcome this problem with upgrades, as Terran took 6 gas easily without threats - early upgrades from 2 armory is possible. So he saves his firing power to receive great interest from upgrades which is great against Hive units.
Broodlings stay alive longer when Terran goes for mechanic than bionic. In this case, when mechanic units have well upgraded armour, Thors stay alive so much longer and with the effect of better weapons upgrade - you can observe thors killing Broodlords and Corrupters which normally you can't see.
So his build is very well built against both offensive and defensive players without ruling out any strategies from Zerg players.
Even beyond his innovations, Mvp had the largest variety of builds of every terran player to have ever played. He could use anything against anyone at any time. He was one of the few players to have used mech against protoss; he has also used bio tank; and is the only one to have ever gone Max Battlecruisers against them. In a sense Mvp had every build and every composition in his play book which also helped him become the greatest preparation player of all time in SC2.
Mvp was also incredibly creative. I’ve mentioned his mech games already, but if there was one game that displayed that creativity it was the first game he had against TOP in the GSL Finals.
Here is what you need to know. First, TOP was an incredible TvT player, one of the best that era. Second, he was one of the few mech TvT players along with Mvp that understood exactly how to defend, transition, and split the map. During the game, both players constantly fought for the tactical high ground in order to secure bases while harassing each other in turns. Near the end of the game, they had split Daybreak and had made it no man's land. At this point in the TvT meta (even now) it is very possible for the entire map to be mined out. Doubly so when medivacs didn't have speed boost to guide them over defensive turret rings. In this case Artosis predicted correctly that the game would go on for a very long time as the two players fought for incremental pixels to further their positioning. What he didn't see was Mvp prepare for the end game. Mvp never ever let himself get caught out of position for the entirety of the game and never let TOP gain a single edge. And during that time Mvp slowly fed away his SCVs to TOP while he built a mega death fleet. And when he was ready Mvp unleashed hell on Daybreak.
Mvp executed the single greatest tactical move to ever be done in a TvT. One that has never been outdone even 4 years later. He trained 4 ghosts, built 4 ghost academies, readied 4 nukes, prepared 4 medivacs, assembled 3 Thors, gathered 8 ravens and amassed 35 vikings. He lifted his thors and ghosts into his medivacs and used his vikings and ravens to shield their transport as they flew into TOP's main. Mvp unloaded and proceeded to ravage the main with his thors while blanketing the entrance to the main with nukes. TOP was locked out of his own base and it disappeared in the blink of an eye. With no choice but to defend, TOP was drawn out of position, allowing Mvp to break the center and take the game (and, incidentally, TOP's career as a top player).
"How he never gives up and goes down dragging his opponent reminds me of Boxer." - Um Jae Kyung, Brood War Caster Star 'Hangshow' Season4_Ep 08
Yet you cannot talk about Mvp's style without mentioning his tenacity. Most people remember his insane comebacks against Tefel or INnoVation. But there is one that people usually forget. In the GSL Novermber semi-finals, Mvp played against Leenock. Leenock had just come off his MLG Providence victory and was declared (and with good reason) to be the single strongest player on the planet. And in game 2 of that series Leenock crushed Mvp's attack to earn a massive lead 58 drones to 10, 120 supply to 60—no, this is not a typo. At the 20 minute mark Tastosis had rightly declared the game was over. But it was Mvp. Mvp fought back with every scrap of energy, every trick, every move, to the very last mineral and forced that game to extend for 20 more minutes, fighting from deficits of 140 supply to 70, 120 to 60, 70 to 20 and 40 to 20. It was awe inspiring and even when he looked dead for the 20th time, a voice in the back of your mind kept reminding you, "But it's Mvp."
Mvp should be dead. - Artosis How many times have we said that this game? - Tasteless
There is not a single player in the entirety of SC2 that has ever gotten close to the skill in preparation that Mvp has. To be fair no other player has ever had to win a GSL almost solely on preparation and psychological warfare either. For this I will only focus on one series, Mvp vs Squirtle Season 2 2012 Finals.
Mvp knew Squirtle had seen every one of his series from that GSL and had probably seen every one of his TvP series since becoming a pro-gamer. By then Mvp was known for a few things: all-ins, standard bio play, bio+tank, and the 1-1-1. Not only that, but Mvp knew he was by far the weaker player while Squirtle was on top of the world. Mvp ranked himself among the lower tier of players. So in game 1, Mvp opened with a build he had never used in that season: a 1 base marine hellion medivac attack to counter Squirtle when he moved out. The surprise worked and Mvp won the game.
Artosis once said, “The Cheesiest thing a cheesy player can do is play macro.”
At the time Mvp was very much the premier cheddar distributor in TvP. So he went for a macro game. In that game he blindly assumed Squirlte would go for a templar army and was caught off guard as Squirtle had instead gone for collosus. But Mvp prevailed and in a move that would have made Polt proud, Mvp got a massive surround on Squirtle’s max army and EMP’d the sentries to win the battle and the game.
Now up two games with two surprise strategies he came onto Antiga Shipyard. The idea here was simple and played to his strengths while negating Squirtle’s. He’d move out with a marine push which was fairly standard at the time, but he would not attack head on. Instead Mvp decided to wait for Squirtle's stalkers to move out and counter attacked from an immediate position. Instead of fighting in the middle of the map where stalkers could dance around his marines, Mvp fought where Squirtle's micro could not be used at all. And with that he won the game.
Three games, three different strategies. Game 1 and Game 3 had worked as planned. Game 2 hadn't worked out, but Mvp was still able to find a way to clutch it out. He had used three builds and variations of builds that Squirtle had never really seen him use before. At this point, Mvp had probably negated Squirtle’s entire pre-match preparation. He had caught him off guard as he had gone aggressive -> standard -> aggressive in the series keeping Squirtle mentally unbalanced.
But Squirtle back then was known for being a clutch player. He had proven that in his IPL 4 runner-up rampage which many believed he had only lost because of pure exhaustion, mental strain and fatigue. He had just played a 3 day marathon, he had just lost the most controversial GSTL series of all time, he had come from the lower bracket and had to win double Bo5 against a Top 3 TvP player in the world.
If this was any other player, if this was sOs or Maru or INnoVation they’d have tried to end it all here with a cheese. After all you’re 3 games up, why not take the risk and go for the “easy” win. Why not just go for 4 11/11s in a row and hope one of them sticks? But that is the difference between them and Mvp. Because Mvp understood that 11/11 was his last and only silver bullet. The one build that could negate Squirtle’s incredible strength in the mid game and late game. But a bullet Squirtle had seen too many times, a build Mvp had already used a huge amount of times to get to the finals.
Of all of Mvp’s builds, his best chance was the 11/11. But the strength of the 11/11 is built on the surprise factor. It isn't like in TvZ where Maru can use it and either kill or easily transition against whoever he’s playing against. In addition to that Mvp could only use it on 2 player maps, leaving it for Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, Dual Sight and Atlantis Spaceship. And more importantly, Mvp understood Squirtle. He knew Squirtle had it in him to be mentally clutch (Squirtle had proven it in his IPL Finals). So with 4 games left to go, he had to simultaneously find three strategies that gave him the best chance of winning while making Squirtle forget about the 11/11. That meant he had to go for three macro builds. So in game 4, Mvp tried to macro hoping Squirtle would just crack. Squirtle was back to form and won.
It is game 5, 6 and 7, and the ordering of them that makes Mvp’s series against Squirtle such a masterpiece. In Game 5 he slowed down the pace and split the map. He then unveiled a strategy never seen before in the history of SC2: maxed 3/3 Battlecruisers. But Squirtle, in one of the greatest moments of SC2’s entire history, vortexed the army and won the game.
Game 5 was brilliant by both players. But for Mvp he had created an entire new strategy that could only be used on one map, that fit the criteria of being a surprise punch Squirtle would not expect while at the same time making Squirtle’s mindset be more lax to early game pressure.
Game 6 was a continuation of what Mvp had done in Game 5, but in reverse. Game 5 had the game slowly ramp up into an explosive finish. Game 6 had Mvp play for the mid game as he pulled out the bio tank strat, but instead of playing defensively as he did against Naniwa, he went on the offensive and very nearly crushed his opponent, but Squirtle at the very edge of his rope held on.
And this is the glory of Mvp’s game 7. He had slowed down the pace of the game again in game 4. In game 5 he threw a massive surprise that ramped up the pressure, and anyone other than Squirtle would have cracked. In game 6 he changed the pace again and tried to end it in a fast paced mid-game that didn't work. He had done the best possible of creating an atmosphere where Squirtle was likely to forget the very existence of the 11/11. And he had done it while still maximizing his chance for victories from games 4-6. Yet as expected, it wasn't enough. What makes Mvp’s 11/11 on game 7 so amazing is four things. First, he had gone 6 games without using a single 11/11. Second, Atlantis Spaceship was the worst map in the pool for 11/11 as it had the largest rush distance. Third, it was at game point, with all the glory on the line. Fourth, it was right after a very intense game that could have left Squirtle jittery. And even with all of the psychological warfare, all of that preparation, Squirtle was still aware enough and smart enough to scout and see that Mvp's base had no raxes. And he pushed back the initial push. If this was anyone else the game would have been over, but it was Mvp. The choice Squirtle had always made with his early stalker was to move out. It is a smart move; Squirtle's micro is better than his opponent's so he did not have to fear their marines. Doubly so after a failed 11/11 attempt. But Mvp knew this and had abused it earlier in map 3 by circumventing it. This time Mvp ambushed Squirtle. Mvp used the map architecture to his advantage (putting units behind vision barriers), created a small flank and pulled his SCVs to take the game from Squirtle’s hands and make it his own.
The last thing to talk about when considering Mvp style is what I like to call the Mvp paradox. It isn't something that has only ever happened in SC2. But they always call it something different in each esport. In CS:GO they call it NiP Magic. In FGC they call it the Wong Factor. It is that moment when all seems lost, when the odds are stacked against you; when one of the NiP players is forced to win a crucial round or crucial match against opponents on their best maps in a critical series; when Justin Wong is on his last pixel with no X factor; that they pull out a miracle from nowhere.
In SC2 that is the Mvp Paradox. In all of 2012, there was a very famous mantra that was uttered independently by fans, casters and pros. It often went, “Mvp is injured and jet-lagged, he can't win...but it's Mvp." "Mvp is in his worst matchup against a Godlike player, he can't win....But it's Mvp." or "Mvp doesn't stand a chance, he fled to Europe and he's now playing the best player on Earth....But it's Mvp." "Mvp has to fight BL/infestor against the best zerg playing right now, he can't win...But it's Mvp."
People often call players who do something ballsy "Mvp-esque". Players like Naniwa or sOs or TY, players who are willing to gamble on the last map with an all-in. It is true that daring that bravery is what makes Mvp so special. But it is more than that. It is when, even after your all-in gets scouted and denied, you still win. It is when everything is stacked against you. It is when you are injured; and jet-lagged; and facing the greatest players of that time or all time; to be stuck in a meta that is stacked against you; in your worst matchup; to be put in an untenable situation; and win. It is being down 20 SCVs against the best mechanical player in the world; it is your 11/11 getting denied and creating a plan to win anyway; it is making you believe that a 40 minute, 3 marine attack after climbing back from a 70 supply deficit could win the game.
Mvp vs Life
This is the final fight; it all comes down to this. In terms of prestige the two of them are very much the same. In terms of dominance, again it is the same, even in terms of the paths they took for their major runs. Here is a list of achievements:
Tier 1: IEM WC - 1st - HuK, July, San, MKP August 2011 Code S - 1st - MC, Polt, Nestea, HuK, July, MKP GSL October 2011 Code S - 2nd - Clide, Bomber, Nestea, Ganzi, loss to MMA GSL Nov 2011 - Top 4 - aLive, MKP, jjakji, GuMiho, sC, loss to Leenock Blizzcon 2011 - 1st - loss to Nestea, Sen, Nestea GSL Season 2 Code S 2012 - 1st - loss to Naniwa, Puzzle, Ryung, July, loss to HerO, Leenock, Naniwa, PartinG, Squirtle WCG Korea - 1st - Happy, Supernova, MKP WCS EU Season 1 2013 - Stephano WCS Season 1 Finals - Top 4 - Ryung, Losira, ForGG, loss to INnoVation Blizzcon 2011 - 1st - loss to Nestea, Sen, Nestea MLG Providence - Top 4 - Rain, Bomber, loss to MC, HerO, Haypro, MC, loss to Leenock Blizz Cup 2011 - Top 4 - MC, HerO, Stephano, loss to DRG, Polt, loss to MMA GSL Season 4 Code S 2012 - 2nd - loss to Taeja, beat MMA twice, MKP, Symbol, Rain, loss to Life
Life Tier 1: GSL Season 4 Code S 2012 - 1st - Nestea, Seed, MKP, Taeja, Mvp MLG Fall 2012 - 1st - Violet, Taeja, Flash, Leenock Blizz Cup 2012 - 1st - Sniper, Rain, DRG, Leenock, PartinG MLG Winter Championship - 1st - Polt, Last, MC, Flash DH Bucharest - Top 4 - Supernova, loss to Taeja DH Winter - 2nd - MMA, Polt, StarDust, JYP, Naniwa, INnoVation, loss to Taeja, loss to Taeja again GSL Season 1 2014 - Top 4 - RorO twice, Maru, loss to soO IEM Toronto - Top 4 - Scarlett, MC, First, loss to Zest Blizzcon 2014 - 1st- Zest, San, Taeja, MMA DH Winter 2014 - 2nd - Taeja, San, Leenock, Bunny, First, loss to ForGG, Taeja, loss to ForGG SSL - Top 4 - Classic, herO, Dear, loss to Dream GSL Season 1 Code S 2015 - 1st - GuMiho twice, YoDa, Soulkey, INnoVation, herO, PartinG IEM Taipei - 1st - ForGG, Soulkey, HyuN, PartinG, Maru
Tier 2: Iron Squid 2 - 1st - Creator, Leenock, MKP, DRG IEM NY 2013 - 1st - loss to HyuN, Zest twice (pre Zest godmode), HerO, Curious, Naniwa DH Bucharest 2014 - 1st - Leenock, StarDust, INnoVation, Impact
Tier 3: ASUS Northcon - Top 4 - INnoVation, VortiX, loss to Scarlett
Here is a run down.
Mvp in his first GSL beat a Top 2 Z, Top 5 P, Top 4 P, Top 1 Z and Top 2 T. This was about as hard as you could realistically get for any GSL run. Because of that I’ve made it equivalent to Life’s 2013 MLG Winter 2013. There he beat a Top 5 T, Last (Who was plying close to Top 5 level), Top 5 P and Top 3 T. Both were done in the early phases of WoL and HotS respectively. But GSL has more prestige and preparation time and Mvp had harder opponents relative to his time so I added Life’s lackluster Top 4 at ASUS Northcon to even it out.
Jan 2011 Code S - 1st - Fruitdealer, Choya, Trickster, Nestea, MKP vs MLG Winter Championship 2013 - 1st - Polt, Last, MC, Flash Asus Northcon - Top 4 - INnoVation, VortiX, loss to Scarlett
Second we have Mvp’s GSL WC. Many mocked it for having half foreigners but no one has bothered to actually look at Mvp’s path. He had HuK a Top 3 to Top 5 P at worst, July a Top 3 Z, San a Top 2 P and MKP Top 2 terran. He beat 4 of the best 6 players other than himself at the time. Because of that I made it equivalent to Life’s Fall MLG where he beat a Top 5 Z, Top 3 T, Top 5 T and Top 2 Z.
GSL WC - 1st - HuK, July, San, MKP vs MLG Fall 2012 - 1st - viOLet, Taeja, Flash, Leenock
Next is Mvp’s August GSL win where he beat Top 1 P, Top 5 T, Top 1 Z, Top 5 P, Top 3 Z and Top 2 T. That may actually be the single hardest run anyone has ever done in GSL in terms of best players in the world. He was only missing MMA. Because of that I made it the same as Life’s 1st in GSL Season 4 2014. There he beat a Top 3 Z, Top 3 P (this was right around the time Seed fell off, but he was still playing well), Top 5 T, Top 3 T and Top 1 T.
August 2011 Code S - 1st - MC, Polt, Nestea, HuK, July, MKP vs GSL Season 4 Code S 2012 - 1st - Nestea, Seed, MKP, Taeja, Mvp
Then there is Mvp’s GSL October silver. There he beat a Top 3 T, Top 1 Z, Top 5-10 T and lost to MMA at Blizzcon. This was about the same as Life’s BlizzCup run where he beat a Top 5 Z, Top 3 P, Top 5 Z, Top 2 Z and Top 3 P. While the list is better for Life, the format was worse as it had less players, less preparation and the finals of GSL at Blizzcon increases the prestige.
GSL October 2011 Code S - 2nd - Bomber, Nestea, Ganzi, loss to MMA vs Blizz Cup 2012 - 1st - Sniper, Rain, DRG, Leenock, PartinG
After that is Mvp’s 1st in GSL Season 2 Code S 2012. There he beat a Top 5 P, Top 10 T, Top 3 Z, Top 5 P, Top 2 P, and the best protoss. In comparison to that I equated this to Life’s Blizzcon and IEM NY runs. At Blizzcon he beat a Top 1 P (though jet lagged), Top 10 P, Top 2 T and a Top 5 T. The format again was better for Mvp and so was the player list. Yes there was prestige for Life, but the era in which Mvp was playing was worse for terran against protoss than it was for zerg during Blizzcon. Because of that I added in Life’s IEM NY run where he beat Zest (who was a complete non factor at that point), a Top 10 P, Top 10 Z and Naniwa.
GSL Season 2 Code S 2012 - 1st - loss to Naniwa, Puzzle, Ryung, July, loss to Hero, Leenock, Naniwa, PartinG, Squirtle vs Blizzcon 2014 - 1st - Zest, San, Taeja, MMA IEM NY 2013 - 1st - loss to HyuN, Zest twice (pre Zest godmode), HerO, Curious, Naniwa
Next is Mvp’s second place at GSL Season 4 Code S 2012. There he beat a Top 5 T twice, another Top 5-7 T, Top 5 Z, Top 3 P and lost to Life. I decided to equate this to Life’s GSL Season 1 Code S 2015 run as GuMiho was a Top 10 T, YoDa the same, Soulkey was a Top 5-10 zerg, INnoVation was a Top 3 Terran, herO was a Top 3 P and so was PartinG. Again this favors Mvp because he was in the worst era of terran weakness, but to make it fair I threw in his WCG 2011 victory, which didn’t have any notable victories but adds just enough to make it even or in Mvp’s favor.
GSL Season 4 Code S 2012 - 2nd - loss to Taeja, beat MMA twice, MKP, Symbol, Rain, loss to Life WCG 2011 - 1st - No one noteworthy vs GSL Season 1 Code S 2015 - 1st - Gumiho twice, YoDa, Soulkey, Innovation, herO, Parting
In his GSL Nov 2011 run, Mvp got to the Top 4 after beating a Top 5 TvT, Top 3 T, Top 10 T, Top 3 T(could very well have been the best terran as this was Jjakji's peak). I put this even to Life’s run at DH Winter as he beat Top 10 T, Top 5 T, Top 10 P, JYP on a hot streak, Naniwa, Top 3 T before losing to Taeja twice.
GSL Nov 2011 - Top 4 - aLive, MKP, jjakji, Gumiho, sC, loss to Leenock vs DH Winter 2013 - 2nd - MMA, Polt, StarDust, JYP, Naniwa, INnoVation, loss to Taeja, loss to Taeja again
Next is Mvp’s Blizzcon title where he beat Sen and Nestea. In terms of prestige it was higher, though the run wasn’t very strong. So I equate this to Life’s DH Bucharest where the only notable player he beat was SuperNova combined with his GSL Season 1 2014 run where he beat RorO (top 5 Z) twice and a Top 3 T to reach the Top 4.
Blizzcon 2011 - 1st - loss to Nestea, Sen, Nestea vs DH Bucharest - Top 4 - SuperNova, loss to Taeja GSL Season 1 2014 - Top 4 - RorO twice, Maru, loss to soO
After that is Mvp’s WCG Korea win against a Top 5 TvT, Top 5 T and Top 2-3 T. I considered this even to Life’s SSL Top 4. He beat Classic (close to Top 5 P), a Top 3 P, Top 10 P before losing to Dream. Both had only dealt with one matchup and in terms of prestige and victory Mvp is ahead by a decent amount. That was why I combined it with Life’s IEM Taipei run. There he beat a Top 10 T, Top 5 Z, HyuN (who had fallen off and was at most a Top 10 Z), Top 3 P and Top 1 T. To balance that out I included Mvp’s Season 1 Finals run where he beat a Top 5 TvT, Top 5 Z and Top 5 T.
WCG Korea - 1st - Happy, SuperNova, MKP WCS Season 1 Finals - Top 4 - Ryung, Losira, ForGG, loss to INnoVation vs SSL - Top 4 - Classic, herO, Dear, loss to Dream IEM Taipei - 1st - ForGG, Soulkey, HyuN, PartinG, Maru
Now to the nitty-gritty. Life’s DH Winter 2nd place had him defeat a Top 2 T, Top 10 P, Top 10 Z, 2nd best foreigner, Top 10 T and then lost to Top 10 T. Because it was a second place I gave this the equivalent of two of Mvp’s runs. His MLG Providence run where he beat a Top 3 P, Top 5 T, Top 5 P, Haypro (who played the best tournament of his life here), Top 5 P. I then included his IEM WC 2013 run where he beat the best foreigner in Stephano.
MLG Providence - Top 4 - Rain, Bomber, loss to MC, HerO, Haypro, MC, loss to Leenock IEM WC 2013 - Top 4 - Stephano, loss to YoDa vs DH Winter 2014 - 2nd - Taeja, San, Leenock, Bunny, ForGG, loss to ForGG
Here we have Mvp’s Anaheim win where he beat Ganzi (who was playing at a Top 5 T level), Top 2 Z, Top 7-8 T, and a Top 2-3 T. I made this equivalent to Life's title at Iron Squid 2 where he beat Top 3 P, Top 2 Z, Top 6-7 T and Top 3 Z. But Mvp’s Anaheim had more prestige because it was live the entire way through so I had to include the IEM Toronto Top 4 run from Life, and to counter that player pool I had to include Mvp’s Blizz Cup 2011 Top 4 as well.
Blizz Cup 2012 - Top 4 - MC, HerO, Stephano, loss to DRG, Polt, loss to MMA MLG Anaheim - 1st - Ganzi, DRG, Boxer, MMA vs IEM Toronto - Top 4 - Scarlett, MC, First, loss to Zest Iron Squid 2 - 1st - Creator, Leenock, MKP, DRG
Finally it came down to this. Is Mvp’s IEM Cologne first place greater than Life’s Bucharest? Life did beat a Top 5 T in INnoVation, but in the end the double victories and the bad meta for Mvp carried it out. Life was playing INnoVation on the pre-thor, pre-WM patch so it was highly in favor of ZvT at that time as well.
And even after all of that Mvp still has his WCS EU Season 1 2013 over Stephano. In terms of pure results Mvp is ahead though depending on the scaling you could still make an argument for Life. The results themselves aren't definitive and they could be argued either way even though I ended up putting Mvp head by just 1 Tournament.
What really clinches it for Mvp over Life are the extenuating circumstances. Mvp stayed as a Top 3 Terran for 2.5 years. In those 2.5 years the only player that was considered better than him was Nestea and MMA for a total of 5-6 months max. That means Mvp was the Top 1 Terran for 2 of those years and the best player overall for 2 years. Now compare that to Life. Life has been a Top player for 2 years. Like I said in the previous Taeja article, excluding the times he was on Top, there was a massive gap between Life and the top players in the world and the top zerg in the world even though he stayed at or around the Top 5 of his race. Next you count his peak years of performance. They account to 1 year total. The latter half of 2012 to early 2013 and the very end of 2014 to now. Did Life have stronger peak performance? I think so, but I've judged every other player off of consistency and peak performance and looking at the raw numbers that way Mvp is ahead of Life by 1 year as a Top player.
Next you have to talk about innovation. Life changed the way zerg is played, there is no doubt. In the beginning most zergs found it hard to play Life's style and players found it hard to deal with. Yet by 2013-2014 Life’s counter attack heavy style was incorporated by multiple zergs at different points in their careers including Soulkey, Jaedong, Solar, Curious and Byul. Now look at what Mvp has done. He created terran in his own image. With an assist from Jinro, Mvp created the very foundation of macro terran play, how it goes into the early game, mid game and late game. He refined TvT compositions for bio-tank vs bio-tank and created and refined the entire mech vs T style as well as mech vs mech. In TvP he was responsible for popularizing and refining bio-tank compositions, and the marine hellion drop counter attack style of 2012 (which later came back into popularity in 2014). He was the first player to make a build solely for the SCV pull (his games vs PartinG at Season 2 and his games vs Rain in Season 4 2012).
After that is his TvZ. Where MKP went into that matchup guns blazing, it was Mvp who had to find and create and refine solid stable TvZ bio tank builds. He created the mass ghost strategy and got them nerfed. He then created the most important opening in all of TvZ: the hellion banshee. The hellion banshee off of 1 base had been done before (By TOP in his ST games against Nestea), but had been abandoned after the queen range buff. Mvp saw that if you made it more macro oriented off of 2-bases you could keep map control while transitioning into bio or mech. In every terran game until now, even after the countless patches and new units and new strategies in HotS, Mvp remains the foundation from which all terran strategy is based on. It is no surprise that the two major sets that Life has lost in TvZ were against ForGG and Dream. Players who both used the hellion banshee opening as the very base of their strategies in order to defeat Life. Even years after Mvp was last relevant, he is still haunting Life through the metagame.
And finally the most important thing to me: it came down to adversity. Greatness can only be made through adversity. Its great if you win over a large field of players stomping them into the ground and pronouncing yourself as the best there is. And even during the BL/infestor era Life had a hugely tough time with ZvZs while Mvp dominated the GomTvT era. Of course that’s a little unfair to Life. His MLG Winter Championship run was done in a very weak era for zerg (though he dropped off immediately afterwards thanks to the Group of Death). Beyond that is Life’s current run. In the current meta, zerg is a little bit weaker. They have less depth in their players and less Premier wins. But it isn't close to what I’d call being imbalanced.
Compare that to Mvp. In his 2012 Season 2 championship, protoss was having the largest revolution of ideas it had ever had in SC2 up to that point. Every player was pushing forward the meta for them including PartinG, Squirtle, MC, YongHwa, Seed, Creator and Naniwa. In that vortex terran was in a bad state for its first time and was in my mind weaker than zerg is today. Yet Mvp in that environment was forced to created multiple strategies and mind games to compensate and win. Even more telling is the rest of 2012 dubbed the BL/infestor era. In that time the maps were Whirlwind, Daybreak and imitations of Daybreak. Almost all of the maps could be split, every map you could get a secure third, and thus in every map BL/infestor was spawned. Even in difficult metas, Life has had multiple zergs who he could emulate and learn from such as Solar, soO, Soulkey, Dark, Rogue, and Leenock. Other players proposed solutions and Life simply had to master them. In Mvp’s era, he faced the forces of Aiur and withstood the swarm alone. He was innovating for his entire race in a bad map pool against an unbeatable composition and won. In his finals against Life, he was playing against the second greatest player of all time in his prime, in the strongest meta zerg has ever had, with a broken spine, and still took him to the 7th map.
And that is what it comes down to. It is easy to be swept up in the wave of Life. Because when he is on his game, when he is strong, when he is in the zone almost nothing can stop him. He very much looks like the greatest player on earth. When you saw Mvp in 2012, what you saw was a man with a broken neck, broken wrists and broken shoulders. You saw a man stuck with the worst race, a man who had no help from his peers, a man who was fighting on bad maps in the worst meta the game has ever created. You saw a man who was mechanically unable to compete with most of Code S. Everything about him screamed at you, Mvp can not possibly win. And yet he won again and again and again creating the Mvp paradox.
I've tabulated the results. Mvp vs Life is either slightly ahead or even based on your criteria. In terms of longevity, peak and consistency Mvp is ahead. In terms of dealing with adversity, Mvp is ahead. In terms of pure impact on the game, Mvp is ahead. In every intangible quality that I define as the greatest, Mvp is ahead. I don’t know by how much or what exactly Life needs to do to overcome that. Is it 1 major tournament victory, 2, 3? The answer is up in the air.
In Thorin's interviews of pro players, he often asks the question, “Imagine if aliens are invading the world, pick 5 pro players to defend the world. Anyone from any era in their primes.” How you answer that question says a lot about your personal biases and what you value most in a player.
Now let me ask you a question, “Imagine if Earth was attacked by Aliens and you had to elect 1 leader to save us based on SC2 skills alone. And after that the world goes into a world war, then a civil war happens in your country, and the zombie apocalypse occurs, with time traveling robots from the future coming to kill everyone. Oh and the player you choose will be crippled.”
Me? I would choose the Mvp every time, 10 times out of 10. I choose the player whose WoL dominance was so strong Flash considered it a parallel to his own. I choose the player who had the come back miracles of Boxer if Boxer had beaten both iloveoov and Anytime in his finals. I choose the player who created the race and has fundamentally charted its course through history like Savior did for his in BW. I choose the player who fought alone and unaided in the worst meta of his race. I choose the player who could literally not feel the button clicks of his keyboard and mouse. I choose the player whose 11/11 got denied in the final game and still found a way to victory. I choose the player who took the second greatest player of all time to the brink of destruction in the BL/infestor era because he was hitting 30 second timing windows. I choose the player who could make you believe he could win a 70 supply deficit on 1.5 bases against the best zerg on earth. I choose the player who fought and defeated one of the greatest mechanical players of all time down to 11 SCVs against 30.
If you were choosing a player at their best you could convince me of it being one of the other players on this list, any of them. But if you asked me to choose a player and put him at their worst, at 10% of their peak strength in a position where they are in a meta that actively works against them while facing the best player possible, if you’re asking me to choose a player who must defeat all of the greatest odds both inside and outside the game, the answer will always be Mvp. I’d choose Mvp at 50% strength over any other player in the entirety of SC2 at their 50% capacity. For me choosing the Greatest Of All Time is more than just the numbers on the stats sheet, it's more than just looking at who's the best. It is more than consistency and more than innovation. It is all of these combined. It is watching his games years later and still being in complete awe of how he dragged himself across the finish line again and again and again. It is making your name such a legacy that it is invoked as a tautological explanation for the very essence of the words courage and victory.
Love how objective you tried to make the entire list Stuchiu. My gut feeling tells me Life is #1 but can't argue with the way you've reasoned through the entire list. Nice dedication and thank you for the list. Was an enjoyable read and very happy Leenock made it!
Incredible stuff, stuchiu. You've really raised the bar for StarCraft2 writing! I'm especially impressed with how you articulated your criteria and then applied it so consistently. This is everything one could hope for from such a list and more.
Only read Mvp part so far but man you can write stuchiu! Got some chills reading about his GSL runs 2012. Thanks for these articles, it's kinda like a history book of SC2 so far.
I actually have to go back and read the Life section now. I skipped through it because an absolutist narrative is where Stuchiu's writing is at its best.
If Mvp transitioned late into SC2, he wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as Life. There are much more talented players currently. Mvp played in an era where MKP and Nestea consistently made GSL finals... He was smart and skilled for the time though.
Great article, it's funny when you read the comparisons of who they went through Life's opponent's are almost always much tougher, like I said Mvp has the strongest claim to bonjua, but Life is the GOAT. Post-Kespa switch tournaments should really be ranked a bit higher than the 2010-2012 stuff, we had a huge turnover of pros quitting because they couldn't handle the increased competition.
On April 30 2015 06:30 Xrero wrote: If Mvp transitioned late into SC2, he wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as Life. There are much more talented players currently. Mvp played in an era where MKP and Nestea consistently made GSL finals... He was smart and skilled for the time though.
I suggest you read the article. Even when nearly a cripple and far removed from his prime, he kept up with INnoVation, who was at that point a legitimate monster. It's not that easy.
On April 30 2015 06:30 Xrero wrote: If Mvp transitioned late into SC2, he wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as Life. There are much more talented players currently. Mvp played in an era where MKP and Nestea consistently made GSL finals... He was smart and skilled for the time though.
Had MVP not been injured he would be a laugher for best player ever.
Even after his injury and with almost no practice Innovation barely got past MVP 3-2 in the WCS world semifinals.
And yeah, those players that were competing against MVP would suck now like bomber, mma, polt, mc, maru...
IMO if you do this list a year from now, Mvp will still be top and life will be maybe top 5 at best. He's been on a tear but his skill comes and goes. Mvp was crazy dominant for almost 2 years. Did you know that from his first GSL win until the end of WoL Mvp was in half of the GSL finals? And from there he took the win 2 in 3 times.
Great list. I'm surprised that there was no mention of Life being a "Royal Roader" though. Also, while Mvp had to deal with physical adversity, Life had to balance StarCraft and school at only 15 years old. Like Mvp, he could not practice full-time. As stated by the StarTale coach: "Because of the law for the compulsory shutdown, the tournament had to be played earlier, and to have enough attendance at school, Life is unable to attend the media day in the morning. As a student in middle school, Life faces a lot of restrictions. We can overlook the compulsory education, but now there's this law for the forced shutdown. This makes it really difficult for the player to play to the best of his ability, and I think it's quite a pity."
On April 30 2015 06:05 travis wrote: so silly that people are still living in the past. this is exactly what I expected though, and most people will incorrectly support mvp at #1
life has been as dominant as mvp except he has been doing it for way longer.
I read this as "I looked at the numbers and didn't like them, can't be bothered reading the whole thing.".
Hey guys just wanted to weigh in and say you counted Blizzcon 2011 twice.
In terms of Life vs MVP, MVP did it during GomTvT; Life did it when his race was the weakest. Life also has prevailed in the wake of KeSPA.
MVP was a good player. He was certainly the best Terran of 2011. He won a remarkable number of titles during this period because there were more of them to win. GSL was almost monthly then; now its 3 times a year. It's not really a fair comparison.
On April 30 2015 06:36 Milna wrote: IMO if you do this list a year from now, Mvp will still be top and life will be maybe top 5 at best. He's been on a tear but his skill comes and goes. Mvp was crazy dominant for almost 2 years.
Don't really care about the journalism stuff because it is obviously biased. The only thing to look at is their achievements and prize winnings, and I see only one outcome: Life as #1.
On April 30 2015 06:39 huktillidie wrote: Don't really care about the journalism stuff because it is obviously biased. The only thing to look at is their achievements and prize winnings, and I see only one outcome: Life as #1.
I don't care about your opinion because it's biased.
On April 30 2015 06:37 SpunXtain20 wrote: Hey guys just wanted to weigh in and say you counted Blizzcon 2011 twice.
In terms of Life vs MVP, MVP did it during GomTvT; Life did it when his race was the weakest. Life also has prevailed in the wake of KeSPA.
MVP was a good player. He was certainly the best Terran of 2011. He won a remarkable number of titles during this period because there were more of them to win. GSL was almost monthly then; now its 3 times a year. It's not really a fair comparison.
1. Life 2. MC 3. MVP 4. Zest 5. soO
Oops that was supposed to be Blizz Cup 2012 for the second one.
On April 30 2015 06:37 SpunXtain20 wrote: Hey guys just wanted to weigh in and say you counted Blizzcon 2011 twice.
In terms of Life vs MVP, MVP did it during GomTvT; Life did it when his race was the weakest. Life also has prevailed in the wake of KeSPA.
MVP was a good player. He was certainly the best Terran of 2011. He won a remarkable number of titles during this period because there were more of them to win. GSL was almost monthly then; now its 3 times a year. It's not really a fair comparison.
1. Life 2. MC 3. MVP 4. Zest 5. soO
Life's highest peak was during the BL/Infestor era.... MVPs GSL win vs Squirtle came at a time where Protoss was ridiculous dominant.
MVP's list of achievements is missing gainward. Definitely deserves to be at least a Tier 3 event. Godly player pool for the time it happened and was played offline.
On April 30 2015 06:21 Gwavajuice wrote: Great passion you have and epic writtings (haven't read everything yet sorry), said epicness will maybe redeem the fact your forgot Parting
I guessed the players for 6-10 and 1-5 right! Guessed Nestea/MMA and Life/Mvp backwards though.
On April 30 2015 06:37 SpunXtain20 wrote: Hey guys just wanted to weigh in and say you counted Blizzcon 2011 twice.
In terms of Life vs MVP, MVP did it during GomTvT; Life did it when his race was the weakest. Life also has prevailed in the wake of KeSPA.
MVP was a good player. He was certainly the best Terran of 2011. He won a remarkable number of titles during this period because there were more of them to win. GSL was almost monthly then; now its 3 times a year. It's not really a fair comparison.
1. Life 2. MC 3. MVP 4. Zest 5. soO
Life's highest peak was during the BL/Infestor era.... MVPs GSL win vs Squirtle came at a time where Protoss was ridiculous dominant.
MVP's list of achievements is missing gainward. Definitely deserves to be at least a Tier 3 event. Godly player pool for the time it happened and was played offline.
You're making an uneven argument. Life's most dominant streak was during the BL/infestor era, yes, but Mvp's most dominant streak was not when Terran was at its weakest - it was in early 2011, when Terran was universally considered the strongest race. For proper comparison, you should compare Mvp's win vs Squirtle to Life's win at MLG Dallas or his out-of-the-blue win at Blizzcon 2014.
I actually think Life's MLG Dallas win was most like Nestea's GSL Open Season 2 win except with harder players.
Extremely early in the meta before anyone quite knew what they were doing. Zerg was seen as weak, Terran abused their slightly better (or better? depends who you ask) race and they both won over Terran players.
On April 30 2015 05:54 stuchiu wrote: I know most of you just read the order but #1 is 89000 words long, that is 1/4th the entire article for all 15 players combined.
8900, right? not 89,000? I have 250 page books that are ~60,000 words...
That write up for Mvp was pretty sweet. I'm really glad I took the time to read it.
On April 30 2015 06:30 Xrero wrote: If Mvp transitioned late into SC2, he wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as Life. There are much more talented players currently. Mvp played in an era where MKP and Nestea consistently made GSL finals... He was smart and skilled for the time though.
If Boxer played later in BW he'd suck as well, he played in an era where a foreigner could win a starleague. Whoop dee dipity doo. While we are at it lets do this with every other sport and talk about how much less successful players in the past would be and how inferior their competition was. While we are at it, I'm jumping at head of the time, with that in the future Life wouldn't be nearly as successfully if he played later compared to random dominant kid who hasn't even played Starcraft yet. Therefore Nameless Bonjwa is #1.
While I disagree with some of this list (chiefly the absence of PartinG) I consider the three top spots to be, in that exact order, undisputable. I understand people arguing for Life #1 while bringing forth his results and dominance but stuchiu has brilliantly underlined something that can't be overlooked : Mvp has been injured for more than half of his career. Results are not the only thing that make a player, stories are essential too, and I can't think of anyone with a better story than Mvp. His fourth GSL win was, by a distance, my most emotional SC2 moment. I'd actually go as far as comparing it to Federer's Wimbledon win the same year : against strong odds, relying on sheer talent and brilliance alone. I cried after both.
Haven't paid attention to SC2 for quite a while, this article sure resparked my interest. Thanks stuchiu.
For those arguing recency/skill improvement: You can't tell what this game would be like if not for Mvp. Metas changed because of Mvp. Patches changed because of Mvp. Player opportunities differed because Mvp was there. Had Mvp not been Mvp, would MMA have become the legend he was for being able to stop him? Would anyone have been able to stop NesTea, or Squirtle? The story goes that as BL/Infestor was coming into prominence, Blizzard said they were considering buffing Terran. Then Mvp won IEM Cologne, and suddenly they didn't want to buff Terran anymore. A few months later, Life won the GSL in a favored meta, a success that he parlayed into one of the most successful careers in the history of the game. Would Life have become Life if not for Mvp? Maybe. But then again, maybe not.
On April 30 2015 05:54 stuchiu wrote: I know most of you just read the order but #1 is 89000 words long, that is 1/4th the entire article for all 15 players combined.
8900, right? not 89,000? I have 250 page books that are ~60,000 words...
That write up for Mvp was pretty sweet. I'm really glad I took the time to read it.
So Stephano isnt a top15 player? I know there is lots of foreigner bias and he never competed seriously in GSL. But still, not amongst the top15? that just doesnt feel right
On April 30 2015 07:17 Zeon0 wrote: So Stephano isnt a top15 player? I know there is lots of foreigner bias and he never competed seriously in GSL. But still, not amongst the top15? that just doesnt feel right
Dude PartinG didn't make the list... and you think Stephano makes top 15?
On April 30 2015 07:13 CptMarvel wrote: While I disagree with some of this list (chiefly the absence of PartinG) I consider the three top spots to be, in that exact order, undisputable. I understand people arguing for Life #1 while bringing forth his results and dominance but stuchiu has brilliantly underlined something that can't be overlooked : Mvp has been injured for more than half of his career. Results are not the only thing that make a player, stories are essential too, and I can't think of anyone with a better story than Mvp. His fourth GSL win was, by a distance, my most emotional SC2 moment. I'd actually go as far as comparing it to Federer's Wimbledon win the same year : against strong odds, relying on sheer talent and brilliance alone. I cried after both.
Haven't paid attention to SC2 for quite a while, this article sure resparked my interest. Thanks stuchiu.
Then the question becomes what can Life achieve to be finally considered above MVP? If life is fortunate enough to not have a significant injure, will that prevent him from surpassing MVP forever?
This is very surprising that Life is #2. It is clear that Life has better achievements and is a much better player than Mvp was. He even defeated Mvp in the greatest GSL final of all time, playing from behind in every game. This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
MVP writeup made me tear up. Anyone who doesn't recognize the legend that he is, playing through the crippling pain and overcoming such adversity is dead on the inside. GOAT
i like how life's write up is basically "yea, humanity is fucked. that other beast that competed with him? he beat that one into submission. god? god is long since gone. the eremit from the mountains? he won't step down from that mountain anymore. all hail the superior Life-form!"
i think though that parting, maru and maybe innovation and zest will step up to the task of containing the monster. it also is still left to be seen if life can keep his form for the rest of the year, or if he just randomly collapses like many before him did, including himself.
On April 30 2015 07:20 swag_bro wrote: This is very surprising that Life is #2. It is clear that Life has better achievements and is a much better player than Mvp was. He even defeated Mvp in the greatest GSL final of all time, playing from behind in every game. This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
On April 30 2015 07:20 swag_bro wrote: This is very surprising that Life is #2. It is clear that Life has better achievements and is a much better player than Mvp was. He even defeated Mvp in the greatest GSL final of all time, playing from behind in every game. This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
Hahahaha classic swag_bro
Not the troll we deserve, but the troll that we need!
Good reading, WELL DONE! MvP is the legend, the king of sc2!!!! His games was always entertaining, he made sc2 into entertainment. Now i dont feel the same joy watching the sc2 scene :/ He needs to come back
Justice was made! MVP!!!!!!!! awesome articles stuchiu! dont take the negative messages too seriously, when you make a ranking people are gonna be biased.
On April 30 2015 07:20 swag_bro wrote: This is very surprising that Life is #2. It is clear that Life has better achievements and is a much better player than Mvp was. He even defeated Mvp in the greatest GSL final of all time, playing from behind in every game. This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
Hahahaha classic swag_bro
Not the troll we deserve, but the troll that we need!
Okay, it's not trolling if it's true. It is a known fact that Life is better than Mvp. Life in peak form is so much better than Mvp when he was in peak form. So what if he won if he was injured? Squirtle got cocky in that GSL and didn't he beat a foreigner in the WCS EU finals?
On April 30 2015 07:40 fishjie wrote: MVP writeup made me tear up. Anyone who doesn't recognize the legend that he is, playing through the crippling pain and overcoming such adversity is dead on the inside. GOAT
me too! I do expect Life surpass Mvp eventually... but only because Mvp was physically unable to go on.
Couldnt agree more. Mvp is the true king and emperor of SC2, and if only he didnt had this neck injury he would win like everything even now with no problem. Life is good but not even close to Mvp.
On April 30 2015 07:20 swag_bro wrote: This is very surprising that Life is #2. It is clear that Life has better achievements and is a much better player than Mvp was. He even defeated Mvp in the greatest GSL final of all time, playing from behind in every game. This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
Hahahaha classic swag_bro
Not the troll we deserve, but the troll that we need!
Okay, it's not trolling if it's true. It is a known fact that Life is better than Mvp.
Thing is, you live in a different universe. It's hard for us to grasp what happens in your world. The only thing we know is that the Official Crown swings wildly, sometimes several times a day. This is why we need you as the Vessel.
On April 30 2015 07:20 swag_bro wrote: This is very surprising that Life is #2. It is clear that Life has better achievements and is a much better player than Mvp was. He even defeated Mvp in the greatest GSL final of all time, playing from behind in every game. This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
Hahahaha classic swag_bro
Not the troll we deserve, but the troll that we need!
Okay, it's not trolling if it's true. It is a known fact that Life is better than Mvp. Life in peak form is so much better than Mvp when he was in peak form. So what if he won if he was injured? Squirtle got cocky in that GSL and didn't he beat a foreigner in the WCS EU finals?
Well even is Life is better, he might not be the greatest of all time. LeBron James could beat Michael Jordan at his peak, because the game and players developed so much since then. But Michael Jordan is still the GOAT, period.
Regardless
This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
this part has to be trolling a little bit at least . And how is this article an insult to Life and where does it call him a bad player?
Oh and I usually don't agree with Thorin, but this came at the perfect time haha.
I know it would probably be alittle anti-climactic, but maybe there could be a continutation of this series with honourable mentions, like Squirtle, Bomber, PartinG
On April 30 2015 07:20 swag_bro wrote: This is very surprising that Life is #2. It is clear that Life has better achievements and is a much better player than Mvp was. He even defeated Mvp in the greatest GSL final of all time, playing from behind in every game. This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
Hahahaha classic swag_bro
Not the troll we deserve, but the troll that we need!
Okay, it's not trolling if it's true. It is a known fact that Life is better than Mvp. Life in peak form is so much better than Mvp when he was in peak form. So what if he won if he was injured? Squirtle got cocky in that GSL and didn't he beat a foreigner in the WCS EU finals?
On April 30 2015 07:56 Yorkie wrote: Prediction: by the end of 2015 Parting will be on the list and Life will be #1. For now though, great work Stuchiu!
MVP over Life and at the least you can't even list Nestea vs MVP matches on there? T_T Yeah, the first few times they met it was a roll over but the later 2-3 times they met ended up in near MVP vs Leenock tier games, and this is considering that Terran was still very favored back then compared to what we know now.
On April 30 2015 07:56 Yorkie wrote: Prediction: by the end of 2015 Parting will be on the list and Life will be #1. For now though, great work Stuchiu!
Parting gets top 4 at Kespa cup he beats sOs/Leenock/DRG. Gets top 2 he beats MKP. That's how close it was.
So many things about MVP that I didn't know about. The MVP vs Squirtle Archon toilet brought back memories since it was the last series I watched before I stopped watching or playing SC2 completely, and it's still the greatest moment of SC2 ever for me I believe Life is the better player if it was based on pure skill (most likely a different story if MVP wasn't injured) and I'm sure almost everyone will agree, but all the things that MVP has done gives me the nod on MVP over life.
I'm also rather curious if you believe you gave MVP some extra points based on his injury. I'm personally not a big fan of it if there were, but I'm kinda seeing mixed signals.
Just finished the read up on both MVP and Life. Amazing work Stuchiu, you truly understand the kind of player Mvp was, down to the very core. And you backed your arguments up with facts. Mvp should be proud to have a fan like you do him justice!
On April 30 2015 07:20 swag_bro wrote: This is very surprising that Life is #2. It is clear that Life has better achievements and is a much better player than Mvp was. He even defeated Mvp in the greatest GSL final of all time, playing from behind in every game. This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
Hahahaha classic swag_bro
Not the troll we deserve, but the troll that we need!
Okay, it's not trolling if it's true. It is a known fact that Life is better than Mvp. Life in peak form is so much better than Mvp when he was in peak form. So what if he won if he was injured? Squirtle got cocky in that GSL and didn't he beat a foreigner in the WCS EU finals?
Well even is Life is better, he might not be the greatest of all time. LeBron James could beat Michael Jordan at his peak, because the game and players developed so much since then. But Michael Jordan is still the GOAT, period.
This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
this part has to be trolling a little bit at least . And how is this article an insult to Life and where does it call him a bad player?
Oh and I usually don't agree with Thorin, but this came at the perfect time haha.
On April 30 2015 07:20 swag_bro wrote: This is very surprising that Life is #2. It is clear that Life has better achievements and is a much better player than Mvp was. He even defeated Mvp in the greatest GSL final of all time, playing from behind in every game. This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
Hahahaha classic swag_bro
Not the troll we deserve, but the troll that we need!
Okay, it's not trolling if it's true. It is a known fact that Life is better than Mvp. Life in peak form is so much better than Mvp when he was in peak form. So what if he won if he was injured? Squirtle got cocky in that GSL and didn't he beat a foreigner in the WCS EU finals?
Well even is Life is better, he might not be the greatest of all time. LeBron James could beat Michael Jordan at his peak, because the game and players developed so much since then. But Michael Jordan is still the GOAT, period.
Regardless
This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
this part has to be trolling a little bit at least . And how is this article an insult to Life and where does it call him a bad player?
Oh and I usually don't agree with Thorin, but this came at the perfect time haha.
I was hoping that this article would go into it more scientifically with all the achievement list comparing. But injury/age/macro based play, has distorted the list a bit too much for my liking.
Still a freaking good article though, not gonna lie
On April 30 2015 07:56 Yorkie wrote: Prediction: by the end of 2015 Parting will be on the list and Life will be #1. For now though, great work Stuchiu!
Parting gets top 4 at Kespa cup he beats sOs/Leenock/DRG. Gets top 2 he beats MKP. That's how close it was.
HE WAS ROBBED
seriously tho, the exclusion seems to be a indicator than the criteria you used had some flaws, mainly not recognizing consistency enough and a somewhat arbritary ranking based on what players they beat. like i said i think this is the only weak spot of your otherwise great series
To be honest I'd say they're even right now, but that means that the next championship Life wins will propel him to number one.
There is just so much rose tinted goggles effect looking back at Mvp's career, sure it was impressive, hell, top 2, but just so much stuff gets credited to him it's getting beyond ridicolous.
I dont like Rain's play and I think it is overrated. HerO, herO or Jaedong (maybe Parting) would fit better in the top 15, even if not in the top 10, than Rain, imo.
Life dominated two completly different games WoL at the end and Hots. His streaks where cut down by game modifications when Hots came Life was dominating so hard he could won 10 premiers. The same is happining now.
Meh... I had expected Life to be number one even though I know everyone fanboys so hard over Mvp just because he was the first great player in SC2. I still think Life has surpassed Mvp and lets not forget that Life is currently the best player in the world.
But since my 2nd favorite player is Mvp, I will allow it.
After that is Mvp’s 1st in GSL Season 2 Code S 2012. There he beat a Top 5 P, Top 10 T, Top 3 Z, Top 5 P, Top 2 P, and the best protoss. In comparison to that I equated this to Life’s Blizzcon and IEM NY runs. At Blizzcon he beat a Top 1 P (though jet lagged), Top 10 P, Top 2 T and a Top 5 T. The format again was better for Mvp and so was the player list. Yes there was prestige for Life, but the era in which Mvp was playing was worse for terran against protoss than it was for zerg during Blizzcon.
In that era which according to you was so bad for Terran, there were 3 T in the top 8 of GSL. How many Zergs were at the top 8 of Life's Blizzcon? That's right, only 1. In fact, Zerg was not just the least represented race at that Blizzcon, it had been the least successful race in all WCS events in HotS up until that point.
On April 30 2015 08:54 sharkie wrote: "But Squirtle, in one of the greatest moments of SC2’s entire history, vortexed the army and won the game. "
Hmm, I don't really see how an uncontrollable spell can be one of the greatest moments of SC2? Insane writeup nonetheless! good job Stuchiu!
Did you watch the clip/see it live back then? If not I can understand why you say that. If you did, idk, maybe I just remember how tense the entire series was
On April 30 2015 07:20 swag_bro wrote: This is very surprising that Life is #2. It is clear that Life has better achievements and is a much better player than Mvp was. He even defeated Mvp in the greatest GSL final of all time, playing from behind in every game. This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
Hahahaha classic swag_bro
Not the troll we deserve, but the troll that we need!
Okay, it's not trolling if it's true. It is a known fact that Life is better than Mvp. Life in peak form is so much better than Mvp when he was in peak form. So what if he won if he was injured? Squirtle got cocky in that GSL and didn't he beat a foreigner in the WCS EU finals?
Your trolling is getting weaker and weaker!
He successfully baited Thorin, so I'll give him the W here
While Life is my top choice, its hard to fault anything with MVP at the top. Both are incredible players. As many have said, Life's continued dominance and youth should allow him to surpass MVP through the rest of SC2.
On April 30 2015 09:01 brickrd wrote: as a post-mvp starcraft fan i don't care at all about mvp or any of his accomplishments, and life clearly plays in the more legitimate competitive era
life #1~~~
Thats like saying "as a post Michael Jordan Basketball fan i don't care at all about michael or any of his accomplishments, and life clearly plays in the more legitimate competitive era"
Even if you didn't watch them play, you must recognize the influence, and the skill and achievemts they had.
On April 30 2015 09:01 brickrd wrote: as a post-mvp starcraft fan i don't care at all about mvp or any of his accomplishments, and life clearly plays in the more legitimate competitive era
life #1~~~
Thats like saying "as a post Michael Jordan Basketball fan i don't care at all about michael or any of his accomplishments, and life clearly plays in the more legitimate competitive era"
Even if you didn't watch them play, you must recognize the influence, and the skill and achievemts they had.
That Mvp section was absolutely perfect. I approve of everything.
I think you did an excellent job illustrating the transition of Mvp from being a dominant player into being a repeated underdog. The latter got the proper emphasis it deserved given that that's probably where he became such a beloved player. I always wonder what his legacy would be like if he never did anything after 2011.
The series against Bogus really was like his farewell performance. So fitting that the final game ended with hellion vs hellbat, probably the two trademark units of both players.
Glad to see the King getting his due, there's never been another like him and there probably never will be again. SC2 just isn't nearly as interesting without him around.
On April 30 2015 08:54 sharkie wrote: "But Squirtle, in one of the greatest moments of SC2’s entire history, vortexed the army and won the game. "
Hmm, I don't really see how an uncontrollable spell can be one of the greatest moments of SC2? Insane writeup nonetheless! good job Stuchiu!
it seemed like Mvp had created the ultimate composition, Squirtle seemed to have no hope, especially with a good chunk of protoss on the island, then out of nowhere he snuck his mothership in a way that would let it work without getting EMP'd or Yamato'd to death...and then came the void rays and storms
After that is Mvp’s 1st in GSL Season 2 Code S 2012. There he beat a Top 5 P, Top 10 T, Top 3 Z, Top 5 P, Top 2 P, and the best protoss. In comparison to that I equated this to Life’s Blizzcon and IEM NY runs. At Blizzcon he beat a Top 1 P (though jet lagged), Top 10 P, Top 2 T and a Top 5 T. The format again was better for Mvp and so was the player list. Yes there was prestige for Life, but the era in which Mvp was playing was worse for terran against protoss than it was for zerg during Blizzcon.
In that era which according to you was so bad for Terran, there were 3 T in the top 8 of GSL. How many Zergs were at the top 8 of Life's Blizzcon? That's right, only 1. In fact, Zerg was not just the least represented race at that Blizzcon, it had been the least successful race in all WCS events in HotS up until that point.
On April 30 2015 08:54 sharkie wrote: "But Squirtle, in one of the greatest moments of SC2’s entire history, vortexed the army and won the game. "
Hmm, I don't really see how an uncontrollable spell can be one of the greatest moments of SC2? Insane writeup nonetheless! good job Stuchiu!
A) Watch Video B) What do you mean uncontrollable? C) This is literally the greatest memory I have of SC2
Uncontrollable as in players fighting against vortex can't really avoid it.
MVP had heaps of scans, EMPs and yamatos vs the notoriously speedy mothership. He also could have split his army better. He had every opportunity to avoid it.
I'll accept this, since the amount of gushing about MVP made it quite clear what race the author prefers. Note how he bent over backwards to make excuses for why MVP ONLY cheesed Squirtle in game 7. MVP should be denied rank #1 for PRECISELY this game. the whole 11/11 meta is a big reason for there being something wrong with the game all this time yet people just "accept" that terrans ought to be allowed to play strategies and win like this, and even if it doesn't work they can usually recover anyway. The fact that any terran, including and especially MVP could get that far and win a GSL by cheesing so much demonstrated the broken early game in favour of terran (that HOTS made even worse) Note also how the author blames MVP's loss to Life in the GSL finals on the Broodlord infestor meta: according to him, when terran wins, it's the godlike skill of the player. when zerg wins, it's the imba race. Next time, get someone to do this who doesn't have that obvious bias. If you want to blame Life's win over MVP on broodlord infestor, then blame MVP's win over Squirtle on the broken 11/11. I watched that series, and it was a great series until game 7 completely ruined it. Can't blame MVP though, he wants to win and he knows terrans can cheese to win and does it. that this kind of play gets glorified as exciting when all it is is taking advantage of a poor early game balance level to steal easy wins is just embarrassing to the game. I suppose if there is one thing that is positive about LoTV is that hopefully this stuff won't continue. Which race can buy cloaked-early game production-auto-attack-air attack-splash damage-non-suicide-counters zerg detection-widow mines for a measly 25 gas...the only unit in the game of any race that comes close to that level of silliness is .. cyclones.... zerg use swarmhosts in order to not die to terran turtle max mech and in order to not die to protoss turtle max colossus air. the swarm host nerf is as ridiculous a move by blizzard as terrans would think removing air attack from widow mines and making them attack only once every 2 minutes would be, or making forcefields cost 100 energy instead of 50. but hey, what do I know, I only watch reaper widow mine hellbat constantly decimating the TvZ meta all over the GSL and the F button making even armies of P and Z turn into a cakewalk for protoss hardly losing any units while all the zerg units die. what do I know.... just what I actually see happen.
User was temp banned for this post. Not this post alone, but continuous balance whine
On April 30 2015 09:01 brickrd wrote: as a post-mvp starcraft fan i don't care at all about mvp or any of his accomplishments, and life clearly plays in the more legitimate competitive era
life #1~~~
Thats like saying "as a post Michael Jordan Basketball fan i don't care at all about michael or any of his accomplishments, and life clearly plays in the more legitimate competitive era"
Even if you didn't watch them play, you must recognize the influence, and the skill and achievemts they had.
Not only that, but Life *doesn't* play in the more competitive environment. MVP did. Life is, IMO, more highly skilled. People get better at stuff, that's just how it is. But MVP dominated SC2 at its height and almost beat a Life nobody had figured out yet - despite being broken of body and the game being broken of balance.
MVP deserves the #1 spot, he's the GOAT. Life is for sure the best player in the world though.
After that is Mvp’s 1st in GSL Season 2 Code S 2012. There he beat a Top 5 P, Top 10 T, Top 3 Z, Top 5 P, Top 2 P, and the best protoss. In comparison to that I equated this to Life’s Blizzcon and IEM NY runs. At Blizzcon he beat a Top 1 P (though jet lagged), Top 10 P, Top 2 T and a Top 5 T. The format again was better for Mvp and so was the player list. Yes there was prestige for Life, but the era in which Mvp was playing was worse for terran against protoss than it was for zerg during Blizzcon.
In that era which according to you was so bad for Terran, there were 3 T in the top 8 of GSL. How many Zergs were at the top 8 of Life's Blizzcon? That's right, only 1. In fact, Zerg was not just the least represented race at that Blizzcon, it had been the least successful race in all WCS events in HotS up until that point.
soO's 4 silvers tilts that quite a bit
The fact that Stuchiu considers him the best Zerg in 2014 by far and he still couldn't win anything, losing multiple finals to different players should tell you something.
On April 30 2015 10:48 baabaa101 wrote: I'll accept this, since the amount of gushing about MVP made it quite clear what race the author prefers. Note how he bent over backwards to make excuses for why MVP ONLY cheesed Squirtle in game 7. MVP should be denied rank #1 for PRECISELY this game. the whole 11/11 meta is a big reason for there being something wrong with the game all this time yet people just "accept" that terrans ought to be allowed to play strategies and win like this, and even if it doesn't work they can usually recover anyway.
The 11/11 failed. Mvp won because he predicted Squirtle getting greedy and looking for the kill instead of just playing out his advantage
After that is Mvp’s 1st in GSL Season 2 Code S 2012. There he beat a Top 5 P, Top 10 T, Top 3 Z, Top 5 P, Top 2 P, and the best protoss. In comparison to that I equated this to Life’s Blizzcon and IEM NY runs. At Blizzcon he beat a Top 1 P (though jet lagged), Top 10 P, Top 2 T and a Top 5 T. The format again was better for Mvp and so was the player list. Yes there was prestige for Life, but the era in which Mvp was playing was worse for terran against protoss than it was for zerg during Blizzcon.
In that era which according to you was so bad for Terran, there were 3 T in the top 8 of GSL. How many Zergs were at the top 8 of Life's Blizzcon? That's right, only 1. In fact, Zerg was not just the least represented race at that Blizzcon, it had been the least successful race in all WCS events in HotS up until that point.
soO's 4 silvers tilts that quite a bit
The fact that Stuchiu considers him the best Zerg in 2014 by far and he still couldn't win anything, losing multiple finals to different players should tell you something.
One to Solar, notably. His race wasn't the problem
I don't think Life will ever be considered 1# over Mvp simply because of the time diference, even if they overlaped a bit, I would consider Mvp number 1# always just like in the BW era, altough the bonjwas played each other, each of them was still the greatest of their time.
Mvp the obvious #1! My favorite Mvp moment was when he "invented" macro terran. I think it was vs Ensnare on Metalopolis, he did a double expand which was unheard of back then. This game has evolved so much, and Mvp is one of the biggest reasons for it.
On April 30 2015 11:43 kyllinghest wrote: Mvp the obvious #1! My favorite Mvp moment was when he "invented" macro terran. I think it was vs Ensnare on Metalopolis, he did a double expand which was unheard of back then. This game has evolved so much, and Mvp is one of the biggest reasons for it.
Personally, I love Mvp to death. I really do.But I would still rank Life as the greatest of all time. But you really make a solid argument for putting Mvp #1 and I completely respect your opinions.
I really loved reading all of this. I've read every single word since you published the first 15. I mean damn, this is some great work. One of the best final edits on TL.net. You have truly poured heart and soul into this and of course hours of research and writing.
After that is Mvp’s 1st in GSL Season 2 Code S 2012. There he beat a Top 5 P, Top 10 T, Top 3 Z, Top 5 P, Top 2 P, and the best protoss. In comparison to that I equated this to Life’s Blizzcon and IEM NY runs. At Blizzcon he beat a Top 1 P (though jet lagged), Top 10 P, Top 2 T and a Top 5 T. The format again was better for Mvp and so was the player list. Yes there was prestige for Life, but the era in which Mvp was playing was worse for terran against protoss than it was for zerg during Blizzcon.
In that era which according to you was so bad for Terran, there were 3 T in the top 8 of GSL. How many Zergs were at the top 8 of Life's Blizzcon? That's right, only 1. In fact, Zerg was not just the least represented race at that Blizzcon, it had been the least successful race in all WCS events in HotS up until that point.
Yea 3T 5P 0Z... Mvp actually had most of his finals vs other Terrans, early in the game history.... it reeks of bias giving the same weight to 2010-2012 GSL's to 2013+ after the kespa switch.
If Life had taken all the three tournaments he was in this spring (GSL, SSL, IEM), would he be #1 for such insane dominance, even over a short time? If he had managed that he would have been near-unbeatable.
On April 30 2015 06:05 travis wrote: so silly that people are still living in the past. this is exactly what I expected though, and most people will incorrectly support mvp at #1
life has been as dominant as mvp except he has been doing it for way longer.
I would like to know how you write a greatest of all time list without "living in the past". I would think it would be a requirement for even thinking of such a list.
any list will be subjective, your objective criteria only go so far and in the end you are always argueing with subjective things like difficulty of paths. also you are overvalueing blink and bl/infestor era a lot, terran has been the strongest race for far longer periods and this combined with nostalgia shows in the ranking with 6 terrans in top 10.
anyway, lots of work put into it and lots of discussion of course, coolest article on tl in a long time!
the insane imba ghost patch His boX series is the only one that makes me feel the player (Mvp) has prepared a specific strategy for the opponent Master in bio and bio mech and mech. His ability to constantly play amazing games against top players in top form. His innovation for terran builds.
MVP the true #1. Imagine how far he could have gone if they never had the horrible spine/neck condition that he did? It probably would have made him focus less on strategy, tactics, and overall mental game. But I think it'd be safe to say he'd still easily be one of, if not the greatest players around today if it were the case.
On April 30 2015 10:48 baabaa101 wrote: I'll accept this, since the amount of gushing about MVP made it quite clear what race the author prefers. Note how he bent over backwards to make excuses for why MVP ONLY cheesed Squirtle in game 7. MVP should be denied rank #1 for PRECISELY this game. the whole 11/11 meta is a big reason for there being something wrong with the game all this time yet people just "accept" that terrans ought to be allowed to play strategies and win like this, and even if it doesn't work they can usually recover anyway. The fact that any terran, including and especially MVP could get that far and win a GSL by cheesing so much demonstrated the broken early game in favour of terran (that HOTS made even worse) Note also how the author blames MVP's loss to Life in the GSL finals on the Broodlord infestor meta: according to him, when terran wins, it's the godlike skill of the player. when zerg wins, it's the imba race. Next time, get someone to do this who doesn't have that obvious bias. If you want to blame Life's win over MVP on broodlord infestor, then blame MVP's win over Squirtle on the broken 11/11. I watched that series, and it was a great series until game 7 completely ruined it. Can't blame MVP though, he wants to win and he knows terrans can cheese to win and does it. that this kind of play gets glorified as exciting when all it is is taking advantage of a poor early game balance level to steal easy wins is just embarrassing to the game. I suppose if there is one thing that is positive about LoTV is that hopefully this stuff won't continue. Which race can buy cloaked-early game production-auto-attack-air attack-splash damage-non-suicide-counters zerg detection-widow mines for a measly 25 gas...the only unit in the game of any race that comes close to that level of silliness is .. cyclones.... zerg use swarmhosts in order to not die to terran turtle max mech and in order to not die to protoss turtle max colossus air. the swarm host nerf is as ridiculous a move by blizzard as terrans would think removing air attack from widow mines and making them attack only once every 2 minutes would be, or making forcefields cost 100 energy instead of 50. but hey, what do I know, I only watch reaper widow mine hellbat constantly decimating the TvZ meta all over the GSL and the F button making even armies of P and Z turn into a cakewalk for protoss hardly losing any units while all the zerg units die. what do I know.... just what I actually see happen.
User was temp banned for this post. Not this post alone, but continuous balance whine
On April 30 2015 07:20 swag_bro wrote: This is very surprising that Life is #2. It is clear that Life has better achievements and is a much better player than Mvp was. He even defeated Mvp in the greatest GSL final of all time, playing from behind in every game. This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
Hahahaha classic swag_bro
Not the troll we deserve, but the troll that we need!
Okay, it's not trolling if it's true. It is a known fact that Life is better than Mvp. Life in peak form is so much better than Mvp when he was in peak form. So what if he won if he was injured? Squirtle got cocky in that GSL and didn't he beat a foreigner in the WCS EU finals?
Well even is Life is better, he might not be the greatest of all time. LeBron James could beat Michael Jordan at his peak, because the game and players developed so much since then. But Michael Jordan is still the GOAT, period.
Okay this analogy makes absolutely zero sense at all, in comparison to my comparisons at least.
Basketball has no metagame that changes consistently or any balance patches because certain shoes are too imba. It's just a few tall guys running around and throwing a ball into a basket.
StarCraft II, on the other hand, is evolving every day. Players find new ways to play and there are balance patches that can change everything. Also, players play different race so that also changes things. Basketball is just who is faster and more accurate. That is all.
Thanks for the huge effort on writing these top players. Really enjoyed the reading sooo much. I could relive thanks to your level of detail each moment of the games I was able to witness (not a hardcore fan).. You should work on a series of VOD's, edited in a way to show all the highlights you mention (not too short but not super long "boring"..) with some nice "achievement/drama/legacy music" etc.
Thanks again. Loved the Mvp one as he is my favorite since I saw him first and felt so sorry for his injuries...
Thanks to you I could understand so many things from the players and tournaments I always wanted to know but I couldn't find or read ANYWHERE... this is the most valuable part of it... Make a PDF file or something that keeps your articles somewhere a live for ever..
With all your data, you could only add a couple of simple graphs to compare each player, but nothing too fancy like the useless data shown in GSL.. KISS.... "keep it simple....."
My reverences to you time and effort again.
Cheers from Mexico, Baja California Sur (playing SC since 1998)..
I think stuchiu is exaggerating when it comes to Mvp's changes to the Terran race. Hellion Banshee existed since the very first GSL. The first Terran to play macro in a solid way was Jinro. The most extended build order for TvT (1-1-1) was around since WoL beta. And Nada played far better bio-mech style than Mvp.
About TvZ, I can credit Mvp for being one of the first players to use mech in the matchup effectively. But come on, mech play was always a hipster option. Mvp's repertoire of builds during BL/Festor era were pure cheese, save for that hellion banshee into 3 base mech. And as per the finals vs Life, he did not make the same build all the finals: he switched between helion banshee and 2fact BFH. Why did he do that? Both were extremely difficult to discern with overlord scouting. So, Mvp switched between a macro build and a cheesy one. That's why Life opted throughout the series by making 2base muta.
As per TvP, granted, he invented the SCV pulls. But nothing more. He grinded that GSL trophy in 2012 relying on pure cheese. I mean, Has will be proud of him.
So, overall, Mvp's contributions to the game that lasted to this day were: mech play and SCV pulls. If that is the case, hell, even MKP was far more innovative. Even to this day Terrans do the marine split and stutter step micro, go for 3 base builds against zerg and go for pure bio play in TvT. And Life contributions? Still no Zerg can play like him. Why is that? Because of his timings. His timings are beautiful. And by the way, he was the first one to play aggro in the BL/Festor era. His contributions are not as important as Nestea's or Stephano's, but consider this: Life playstyle is unmatched, impossible to imitate because his playstyle lies upon another conception of the very basic principles of the Zerg race. No Zerg can master the art of making units and drones at the same time. No Zerg can cycle up the drone/Army mechanic like he does: he drones at the most unexpected timings, he attacks when no other Zerg will do such thing.
And finally, if it is for miraculous runs, Fruitdealer's run was far more impressive and with a more powerful emotional background.
Anyways, Mvp could be the N° 1 because of nostalgia, but please, say it plainly, instead of hiding in "objective" and "rational" arguments. We all know that your list is a subjective one. Nobody would have complained if you out Mvp in N° 1 place because of nostalgia: I, for one, am not complaining. I am just pointing that there is no real objective argument to put Mvp above Life. Only time will tell if there is such argument. Or maybe not and Mvp will be our first bonjwa and Life our next one: none is above the other one, because both belong to another scale.
On April 30 2015 05:58 Zealously wrote: Life was robbed.
Period. Even after reading the articles (Mvp's one is particularly nice btw) I fail to see how Mvp being #1 isn't the product of mainly nostalgia and glorification of the first years of SC2.
I think what Life needs to be the best player is very little - just another big title would do, really.
But to be the greatest? There will never be a player as legendary as Mvp. As much as I'd love to belief that we will, the truth is there will /never/ be a player who fought that much adversity -- both in game and out -- to achieve that amount of success.
When sc2 is but a forgotten memory, there will be players who have won more titles and have been more successful than Mvp. There will be players who simply dwarf his achievements. But there won't be a single player who had that indescribable talent of winning when all the odds were against him.
Long live the King, for there will never be another quite like him.
People keep bringing up Mvp's injury as an excuse for not being dominant for longer. Maybe it is true but on the other hand there is none to blame but himself.
Like if Michael Phelps would start eating McDonald's every day and then make it an excuse for not being as dominant. Have to take care of yourself too.
MVP's section was so long I forgot to read Life's. Now I have.
Overall, this is a f***ing awesome write-up. I especially loved reading about MVP and how he wasn't a popular figure in SC2, until his body fell apart completely and he somehow just kept winning. That won him more fans and admiration than anything he did at his peak.
Still though: No Parting? WTF is up with that? He should be nailed on for a top-10 spot and arguably top 5 (my top 5 would be MVP, Life, MC, Taeja, Parting).
The Parting exclusion is pretty puzzling to me. Did OP respond to that somewhere and I missed it? I feel like if you make this kind of list and a ton of people question an exclusion you should respond. idk :-P
To stuchiu (or any other writer that will do such an article in the future) :
Next time, change title to "My Greatest Players of all times", you'll recieve less negative comments and people will focus more on the quality of the writting. Suggesting > forcing, every day...
On April 30 2015 16:13 Fatam wrote: The Parting exclusion is pretty puzzling to me. Did OP respond to that somewhere and I missed it? I feel like if you make this kind of list and a ton of people question an exclusion you should respond. idk :-P
parting was originally in but was bumped off after analyzing tournament results, but a good performance in one tournament will move him back in, since it was very, very close
Damn, I wanna go back and watch vods of Mvp in 2012 now, nice article, actually touched me.
I think all we want to see from Life is some of that toughness when he's having a bad season. Isn't Life one of the youngest players though? Some of that may be from Mvps maturity. If Life sticks around for a few more years (and doesn't drop off) he could get there.
Kind of weird to not include Parting, but no list can ever be perfect. 9.9/10, ty for the writeup Stuchiu.
On April 30 2015 10:48 baabaa101 wrote: I'll accept this, since the amount of gushing about MVP made it quite clear what race the author prefers. Note how he bent over backwards to make excuses for why MVP ONLY cheesed Squirtle in game 7. MVP should be denied rank #1 for PRECISELY this game. the whole 11/11 meta is a big reason for there being something wrong with the game all this time yet people just "accept" that terrans ought to be allowed to play strategies and win like this, and even if it doesn't work they can usually recover anyway. The fact that any terran, including and especially MVP could get that far and win a GSL by cheesing so much demonstrated the broken early game in favour of terran (that HOTS made even worse) Note also how the author blames MVP's loss to Life in the GSL finals on the Broodlord infestor meta: according to him, when terran wins, it's the godlike skill of the player. when zerg wins, it's the imba race. Next time, get someone to do this who doesn't have that obvious bias. If you want to blame Life's win over MVP on broodlord infestor, then blame MVP's win over Squirtle on the broken 11/11. I watched that series, and it was a great series until game 7 completely ruined it. Can't blame MVP though, he wants to win and he knows terrans can cheese to win and does it. that this kind of play gets glorified as exciting when all it is is taking advantage of a poor early game balance level to steal easy wins is just embarrassing to the game. I suppose if there is one thing that is positive about LoTV is that hopefully this stuff won't continue. Which race can buy cloaked-early game production-auto-attack-air attack-splash damage-non-suicide-counters zerg detection-widow mines for a measly 25 gas...the only unit in the game of any race that comes close to that level of silliness is .. cyclones.... zerg use swarmhosts in order to not die to terran turtle max mech and in order to not die to protoss turtle max colossus air. the swarm host nerf is as ridiculous a move by blizzard as terrans would think removing air attack from widow mines and making them attack only once every 2 minutes would be, or making forcefields cost 100 energy instead of 50. but hey, what do I know, I only watch reaper widow mine hellbat constantly decimating the TvZ meta all over the GSL and the F button making even armies of P and Z turn into a cakewalk for protoss hardly losing any units while all the zerg units die. what do I know.... just what I actually see happen.
User was temp banned for this post. Not this post alone, but continuous balance whine
On April 30 2015 07:20 swag_bro wrote: This is very surprising that Life is #2. It is clear that Life has better achievements and is a much better player than Mvp was. He even defeated Mvp in the greatest GSL final of all time, playing from behind in every game. This article is a direct insult to Life calling him a bad player. Whatever though, Life and other smart people like me know that Life is/was better than Mvp so we don't need some random article to tell us so.
Hahahaha classic swag_bro
Not the troll we deserve, but the troll that we need!
Okay, it's not trolling if it's true. It is a known fact that Life is better than Mvp. Life in peak form is so much better than Mvp when he was in peak form. So what if he won if he was injured? Squirtle got cocky in that GSL and didn't he beat a foreigner in the WCS EU finals?
Well even is Life is better, he might not be the greatest of all time. LeBron James could beat Michael Jordan at his peak, because the game and players developed so much since then. But Michael Jordan is still the GOAT, period.
Okay this analogy makes absolutely zero sense at all, in comparison to my comparisons at least.
Basketball has no metagame that changes consistently or any balance patches because certain shoes are too imba. It's just a few tall guys running around and throwing a ball into a basket.
StarCraft II, on the other hand, is evolving every day. Players find new ways to play and there are balance patches that can change everything. Also, players play different race so that also changes things. Basketball is just who is faster and more accurate. That is all.
Actually basketball rules have changed a ton since the Bird and Magic days. Changed rules change the metagame much like unit changes due in StarCraft. Two big changes that changed big man play to the detriment of players like Shaq and also rules that made MJ more dominate. Since 1980 there have been major changes in Football (no passback to the keeper, offsides), basketball, and American football and they have all drastically changed the way the game is played similar to how mound changes changed baseball. But about starcraft...
However, the problem that some posters have is understanding that because the game has evolved does not mean that the players now are better than players before. Otherwise MVP would be like number 500 all time and you would just take the final 16 from GSL and name them the 16 best players of all time. Players each have a finite amount of years of high level play they can turn out and whether their period was 2011, 1013, or 2015 doesn't matter...what matters is how they did vs the playing field they played against. The author tries to make a metric out of it and although he abandons metrics in a few places and goes with emotions, it is a thought out and worthy article.
On April 30 2015 14:36 Apoteosis wrote: Oh come on...
I think stuchiu is exaggerating when it comes to Mvp's changes to the Terran race. Hellion Banshee existed since the very first GSL. The first Terran to play macro in a solid way was Jinro. The most extended build order for TvT (1-1-1) was around since WoL beta. And Nada played far better bio-mech style than Mvp.
About TvZ, I can credit Mvp for being one of the first players to use mech in the matchup effectively. But come on, mech play was always a hipster option. Mvp's repertoire of builds during BL/Festor era were pure cheese, save for that hellion banshee into 3 base mech. And as per the finals vs Life, he did not make the same build all the finals: he switched between helion banshee and 2fact BFH. Why did he do that? Both were extremely difficult to discern with overlord scouting. So, Mvp switched between a macro build and a cheesy one. That's why Life opted throughout the series by making 2base muta.
As per TvP, granted, he invented the SCV pulls. But nothing more. He grinded that GSL trophy in 2012 relying on pure cheese. I mean, Has will be proud of him.
So, overall, Mvp's contributions to the game that lasted to this day were: mech play and SCV pulls. If that is the case, hell, even MKP was far more innovative. Even to this day Terrans do the marine split and stutter step micro, go for 3 base builds against zerg and go for pure bio play in TvT. And Life contributions? Still no Zerg can play like him. Why is that? Because of his timings. His timings are beautiful. And by the way, he was the first one to play aggro in the BL/Festor era. His contributions are not as important as Nestea's or Stephano's, but consider this: Life playstyle is unmatched, impossible to imitate because his playstyle lies upon another conception of the very basic principles of the Zerg race. No Zerg can master the art of making units and drones at the same time. No Zerg can cycle up the drone/Army mechanic like he does: he drones at the most unexpected timings, he attacks when no other Zerg will do such thing.
And finally, if it is for miraculous runs, Fruitdealer's run was far more impressive and with a more powerful emotional background.
Anyways, Mvp could be the N° 1 because of nostalgia, but please, say it plainly, instead of hiding in "objective" and "rational" arguments. We all know that your list is a subjective one. Nobody would have complained if you out Mvp in N° 1 place because of nostalgia: I, for one, am not complaining. I am just pointing that there is no real objective argument to put Mvp above Life. Only time will tell if there is such argument. Or maybe not and Mvp will be our first bonjwa and Life our next one: none is above the other one, because both belong to another scale.
The contributions don't have to last to this day to mean something. From what I read, he used ghosts so well that it got nerfed. I'm sure there's a lot of other things that would last to this day if it didn't get nerfed or rendered ineffective due to other changes in the game.
I do agree about Hellion-Banshee though. It's not really 'his' build...I mean, I remember simply coming up with it by myself back when I played WoL way before he showed it, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one. There were really only two transitions to Hellion openings back then, and that's Tanks or Banshees. It just made no sense to do anything else because of the excessive amount of gas overflow due to Hellion massing.
I don't think it's fair to say "X player did Y better than MVP". Doing everything better than everyone else is a bit of a tall order lol. He did a lot of things at an exceptionally high level, even if it wasn't the absolute best or most impressive.
On April 30 2015 16:23 Gwavajuice wrote: To stuchiu (or any other writer that will do such an article in the future) :
Next time, change title to "My Greatest Players of all times", you'll recieve less negative comments and people will focus more on the quality of the writting. Suggesting > forcing, every day...
Agreed. I just can't get over the part on Taeja where he claims he 'tried to hate Taeja' and wasn't bias on him. I mean, stuichu, come on...your whole ranking system is based heavily on context, which is completely open to personal opinion. You can try to be fair from your perspective, but it's simply just that----your perspective.
As I've said in one of my other posts, I don't really mind Taeja being at #3. I just don't like your reasons for putting him there. Now that I think about it, I wouldn't even mind your reasons if you didn't try to claim there's no bias involved.
On April 30 2015 05:58 Zealously wrote: Life was robbed.
Period. Even after reading the articles (Mvp's one is particularly nice btw) I fail to see how Mvp being #1 isn't the product of mainly nostalgia and glorification of the first years of SC2.
or the fact he won things while being in a "slump" compared to life who disappeared several times.
On April 30 2015 10:48 baabaa101 wrote: I'll accept this, since the amount of gushing about MVP made it quite clear what race the author prefers. Note how he bent over backwards to make excuses for why MVP ONLY cheesed Squirtle in game 7. MVP should be denied rank #1 for PRECISELY this game. the whole 11/11 meta is a big reason for there being something wrong with the game all this time yet people just "accept" that terrans ought to be allowed to play strategies and win like this, and even if it doesn't work they can usually recover anyway. The fact that any terran, including and especially MVP could get that far and win a GSL by cheesing so much demonstrated the broken early game in favour of terran (that HOTS made even worse) Note also how the author blames MVP's loss to Life in the GSL finals on the Broodlord infestor meta: according to him, when terran wins, it's the godlike skill of the player. when zerg wins, it's the imba race. Next time, get someone to do this who doesn't have that obvious bias. If you want to blame Life's win over MVP on broodlord infestor, then blame MVP's win over Squirtle on the broken 11/11. I watched that series, and it was a great series until game 7 completely ruined it. Can't blame MVP though, he wants to win and he knows terrans can cheese to win and does it. that this kind of play gets glorified as exciting when all it is is taking advantage of a poor early game balance level to steal easy wins is just embarrassing to the game. I suppose if there is one thing that is positive about LoTV is that hopefully this stuff won't continue. Which race can buy cloaked-early game production-auto-attack-air attack-splash damage-non-suicide-counters zerg detection-widow mines for a measly 25 gas...the only unit in the game of any race that comes close to that level of silliness is .. cyclones.... zerg use swarmhosts in order to not die to terran turtle max mech and in order to not die to protoss turtle max colossus air. the swarm host nerf is as ridiculous a move by blizzard as terrans would think removing air attack from widow mines and making them attack only once every 2 minutes would be, or making forcefields cost 100 energy instead of 50. but hey, what do I know, I only watch reaper widow mine hellbat constantly decimating the TvZ meta all over the GSL and the F button making even armies of P and Z turn into a cakewalk for protoss hardly losing any units while all the zerg units die. what do I know.... just what I actually see happen.
User was temp banned for this post. Not this post alone, but continuous balance whine
This is one of the most annoying posts I've ever seen. All forums combined. So much bullshit I can't even get my head around it lol.
After that is Mvp’s 1st in GSL Season 2 Code S 2012. There he beat a Top 5 P, Top 10 T, Top 3 Z, Top 5 P, Top 2 P, and the best protoss. In comparison to that I equated this to Life’s Blizzcon and IEM NY runs. At Blizzcon he beat a Top 1 P (though jet lagged), Top 10 P, Top 2 T and a Top 5 T. The format again was better for Mvp and so was the player list. Yes there was prestige for Life, but the era in which Mvp was playing was worse for terran against protoss than it was for zerg during Blizzcon.
In that era which according to you was so bad for Terran, there were 3 T in the top 8 of GSL. How many Zergs were at the top 8 of Life's Blizzcon? That's right, only 1. In fact, Zerg was not just the least represented race at that Blizzcon, it had been the least successful race in all WCS events in HotS up until that point.
soO's 4 silvers tilts that quite a bit
The fact that Stuchiu considers him the best Zerg in 2014 by far and he still couldn't win anything, losing multiple finals to different players should tell you something.
Yeah, it tells you that Stuchiu knows his business.
On April 30 2015 14:36 Apoteosis wrote: And as per the finals vs Life, he did not make the same build all the finals: he switched between helion banshee and 2fact BFH. Why did he do that? Both were extremely difficult to discern with overlord scouting. So, Mvp switched between a macro build and a cheesy one. That's why Life opted throughout the series by making 2base muta.
That's some epic rewriting of history if I ever saw it.
I must admit i watched alot more WoL than I've done HotS so Im biased towards Mvp, but I really think he deserves this, he was such a force in SC2. Reading the last parts about him here brought back some memories and gave me chills.
Personally I appreciate Mvp's accomplishments alot more now than when he was in his prime, a true Starcraft legend.
On April 30 2015 18:11 Holloworb wrote: I must admit i watched alot more WoL than I've done HotS so Im biased towards Mvp, but I really think he deserves this, he was such a force in SC2. Reading the last parts about him here brought back some memories and gave me chills.
Personally I appreciate Mvp's accomplishments alot more now than when he was in his prime, a true Starcraft legend.
Mvp 2011 was kinda boring, just too much ahead of everyone. 2012/2013 Mvp was a blast, fighting against the odds is always going to be more awesome.
The weirdest thing about this list is probably that Life is not #1. Not because he is playing in a more competitive era or is more dominant or w/e but because . . . why else would you make this list? Is this article as a statement necessary (top 7 consists of old school players (besides Taeja and Life) and MVP is still #1)? I feel like this is probably as boring as it gets. I wonder what TL staff thought this article would provide? Instead you could wait and see if Life one day deserves #1 and give it to him or just write a top 15 HotS players or something. I mean, is this just me? What is this article about; I dont get it. That would be like another Rolling Stone mag list of 50 best songs of all time and top 10 is still 60's rock n roll and #1 is Like A Rolling Stone.
Fully anticipated #1 and #2 respectively. Couldn't agree more that the placements are deserved!
Its funny reading the comments. That i am reminded how i used to look at the people lost in the BW-nostalgia .. Just realized that, im about you end up there aswell - with my Mvp is all, Mvp is King fells.. Oh well, i guess there are worse things in this life
On April 30 2015 06:37 SpunXtain20 wrote: Hey guys just wanted to weigh in and say you counted Blizzcon 2011 twice.
In terms of Life vs MVP, MVP did it during GomTvT; Life did it when his race was the weakest. Life also has prevailed in the wake of KeSPA.
MVP was a good player. He was certainly the best Terran of 2011. He won a remarkable number of titles during this period because there were more of them to win. GSL was almost monthly then; now its 3 times a year. It's not really a fair comparison.
1. Life 2. MC 3. MVP 4. Zest 5. soO
Life's highest peak was during the BL/Infestor era.... MVPs GSL win vs Squirtle came at a time where Protoss was ridiculous dominant.
MVP's list of achievements is missing gainward. Definitely deserves to be at least a Tier 3 event. Godly player pool for the time it happened and was played offline.
You're making an uneven argument. Life's most dominant streak was during the BL/infestor era, yes, but Mvp's most dominant streak was not when Terran was at its weakest - it was in early 2011, when Terran was universally considered the strongest race. For proper comparison, you should compare Mvp's win vs Squirtle to Life's win at MLG Dallas or his out-of-the-blue win at Blizzcon 2014.
I really hate the Blizzcon win being referred to as out of the blue... Like for real, almost everyone i know said and many others i don't know have all said that if he beat Zest in the first round he would most likely win the entire tournament. This community is so Zerg biased because the best foreigners are all Zergs.
On April 30 2015 06:37 SpunXtain20 wrote: Hey guys just wanted to weigh in and say you counted Blizzcon 2011 twice.
In terms of Life vs MVP, MVP did it during GomTvT; Life did it when his race was the weakest. Life also has prevailed in the wake of KeSPA.
MVP was a good player. He was certainly the best Terran of 2011. He won a remarkable number of titles during this period because there were more of them to win. GSL was almost monthly then; now its 3 times a year. It's not really a fair comparison.
1. Life 2. MC 3. MVP 4. Zest 5. soO
Life's highest peak was during the BL/Infestor era.... MVPs GSL win vs Squirtle came at a time where Protoss was ridiculous dominant.
MVP's list of achievements is missing gainward. Definitely deserves to be at least a Tier 3 event. Godly player pool for the time it happened and was played offline.
You're making an uneven argument. Life's most dominant streak was during the BL/infestor era, yes, but Mvp's most dominant streak was not when Terran was at its weakest - it was in early 2011, when Terran was universally considered the strongest race. For proper comparison, you should compare Mvp's win vs Squirtle to Life's win at MLG Dallas or his out-of-the-blue win at Blizzcon 2014.
I really hate the Blizzcon win being referred to as out of the blue... Like for real, almost everyone i know said and many others i don't know have all said that if he beat Zest in the first round he would most likely win the entire tournament. This community is so Zerg biased because the best foreigners are all Zergs.
That's a lot like saying "if Mvp only beats the good Protoss players, he'll most likely win the tournament"... Well, obviously. If you beat the toughest opponent (although Zest was second in difficulty to Taeja, who has always been a thorn in Life's side), the tournament just became a whole lot easier. The thing is that few people thought Life had a realistic shot against Zest, even fewer that he was favored to win. San had never lost a televised game to Life prior to Blizzcon.
So say what you will, but it was not just "Life only had to do X to win the tournament", and this is not an ill-defined 'Zerg bias' resulting from some irrational love for foreigners - I find that argument somewhat insulting. Life's Blizzcon run was, taking into account his matchup preferences and his historical records, one of the most difficult roads he could have possibly taken to the finals. If you want to discredit it to raise Mvp to the skies, fine, but don't twist history into it being a simple run.
Excellent. Just excellent. Amazing read, nerdchills, wonderfully done. I hope this article will go on as one of the classics on this site.
For now (LG)IM_mvp is #1, my guess is he'll be number one for the whole of HotS. Life is amazing, but the fact that "but it's mvp" has more power than "life finds a way" is for my enough.
Mvp made starcraft. Life bends starcraft to his own will. Mvp creates miracles. Life finds a way to make a miracle happen. Mvp can't win... but it's mvp. Life finds a way to win.
On April 30 2015 05:54 stuchiu wrote: I know most of you just read the order but #1 is 8900 words long, that is 1/4th the entire article for all 15 players combined.
To be honest I enjoyed Mvp more than the other 14.
Even reading just a fraction of Mvp's writeup brought back so many incredible, nerd-chilling memories of the great sc2 stories of the years. May we have many more to come. Great writeup! (Even though I'm still sore over taeja > MC )
Mvp! Mvp! Mvp! Mvp! Come on guys, he thoroughly deserved it, who else had achieved more (Especially given his circumstances)? Mvp had been the best player in SC2 so far, other players might overtake him eventually, but Mvp's achievements would still be legendary. Can you imagine an injury free Mvp playing SC2 from the age of 15? He could potentially be many times the beast he was!
On April 30 2015 14:36 Apoteosis wrote: And as per the finals vs Life, he did not make the same build all the finals: he switched between helion banshee and 2fact BFH. Why did he do that? Both were extremely difficult to discern with overlord scouting. So, Mvp switched between a macro build and a cheesy one. That's why Life opted throughout the series by making 2base muta.
That's some epic rewriting of history if I ever saw it.
Yea sure, look at the VODs...
At that time, overlord scout for zerg should hit at 6:30. By that time you can only see a factory and a tech-lab. Mvp exploited that fact and switched between 2fact BFH and 1-1-1 hellion banshee. G1 was 2fact BFH. G3 was Hellion Banshee.
Why 2fact BFH is considered cheese? Because if you don't do enough damage with the BFH (and by damage, I mean 15+ drone kills), you get so behind that is nearly impossible to come back. Watch the VODs and you will see what I'm pointing at. In the games that Mvp went fot 2fact BFH and didn't do enough damage, his follow-up 3 base mech push (which, by the way, was Mvp build of choice in the late game throughout all the series) was easily thwarted by Life.
And by the way, throughout all the series, Life actively made the effort to deny Mvp's map control. Look at the VOD's. Hellions and banshees give map control for Terran until mutas came. What did Life to counter that? His trademark backstabs and run-bys. They barely made damage to Mvp's economy, but if you look closely, Life was active with his zerglings all the early and midgame, in order to always being aware of where were the hellions of Mvp. So, while Life was making a runby at the third fo Mvp, he sent another pack of lings to surround and kill the hellions, thus denying Mvp's map control.
Mvp vs Life was a great series. All these details, all that mindgames, it was a beautiful series, worthy of the two best SC2 players of all-time.
Beautiful, beautiful article, and I agree with the placement and that the only one who can ever hope to surpass Mvp is Life himself. Mpv at his peak was a scary beast, on the level of the old sc1 bonjwa: perfect micro+macro+strategy. The only one who can rival him in this point is Life. Even then Mvp was the most innovative for his race (something that Life is behind to Nestea and Stephano). I would dare to say that Mvp defined not only how Terran would play, but all the other races. But as you so eleqently write in your article, the true legacy of Mvp came after his peak, during his adversities. Winning or almost winning against the prime P/Z/T at the time in a meta that was the most favorable for them and the most diffavorable for Mvp is what made his games enter the legend and transcended Mvp itself.
There is no doubt in my mind that if you were to take any one of this list at their prime against another player and said that it would be the last bo7 series they would ever play, Mvp would win.
On April 30 2015 18:52 Inzan1ty wrote: Mvp = King of Wings Life = Emperor of Swarm
Its all tied, let LotV be the deciding "map" :D
Much respect for what Mvp has build and accomplished, but Life belongs the future.
There is no doubt Life will overcome Mvp in the future. The main question is when.
Just over a month ago, in fact
So not robbed after all
Btw congratz for the articles, only the pieces about the players would've been marvellous then the PR add the level of saltiness to make this epic (and interest people)
On April 30 2015 14:36 Apoteosis wrote: And as per the finals vs Life, he did not make the same build all the finals: he switched between helion banshee and 2fact BFH. Why did he do that? Both were extremely difficult to discern with overlord scouting. So, Mvp switched between a macro build and a cheesy one. That's why Life opted throughout the series by making 2base muta.
That's some epic rewriting of history if I ever saw it.
Yea sure, look at the VODs...
At that time, overlord scout for zerg should hit at 6:30. By that time you can only see a factory and a tech-lab. Mvp exploited that fact and switched between 2fact BFH and 1-1-1 hellion banshee. G1 was 2fact BFH. G3 was Hellion Banshee.
Why 2fact BFH is considered cheese? Because if you don't do enough damage with the BFH (and by damage, I mean 15+ drone kills), you get so behind that is nearly impossible to come back. Watch the VODs and you will see what I'm pointing at. In the games that Mvp went fot 2fact BFH and didn't do enough damage, his follow-up 3 base mech push (which, by the way, was Mvp build of choice in the late game throughout all the series) was easily thwarted by Life.
And by the way, throughout all the series, Life actively made the effort to deny Mvp's map control. Look at the VOD's. Hellions and banshees give map control for Terran until mutas came. What did Life to counter that? His trademark backstabs and run-bys. They barely made damage to Mvp's economy, but if you look closely, Life was active with his zerglings all the early and midgame, in order to always being aware of where were the hellions of Mvp. So, while Life was making a runby at the third fo Mvp, he sent another pack of lings to surround and kill the hellions, thus denying Mvp's map control.
Mvp vs Life was a great series. All these details, all that mindgames, it was a beautiful series, worthy of the two best SC2 players of all-time.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. The epic rewriting is about “Both were extremely difficult to discern with overlord scouting”. Overlord sacrifices were precisely impossible to deny on every map except Cloud Kingdom.
After that is Mvp’s 1st in GSL Season 2 Code S 2012. There he beat a Top 5 P, Top 10 T, Top 3 Z, Top 5 P, Top 2 P, and the best protoss. In comparison to that I equated this to Life’s Blizzcon and IEM NY runs. At Blizzcon he beat a Top 1 P (though jet lagged), Top 10 P, Top 2 T and a Top 5 T. The format again was better for Mvp and so was the player list. Yes there was prestige for Life, but the era in which Mvp was playing was worse for terran against protoss than it was for zerg during Blizzcon.
In that era which according to you was so bad for Terran, there were 3 T in the top 8 of GSL. How many Zergs were at the top 8 of Life's Blizzcon? That's right, only 1. In fact, Zerg was not just the least represented race at that Blizzcon, it had been the least successful race in all WCS events in HotS up until that point.
soO's 4 silvers tilts that quite a bit
The fact that Stuchiu considers him the best Zerg in 2014 by far and he still couldn't win anything, losing multiple finals to different players should tell you something.
Yeah, it tells you that Stuchiu knows his business.
Shocker that you would chime in...
Best Zerg can't win anything, every year in HotS Zerg is the least represented race in Blizzcon, the tournament which represents the sum of an entire year's worth of tournament results, but yeah poor Mvp was playing in a hostile meta in GomTvT while Life won Blizzcon easymode with Zerg.
Wonderful writeup on MVP. Haven't seen his games in a long time but the writeup brought back all of those feels of him just pulling through when there was seemingly no chance.
Really liked this series. Hope to see more of these types of articles in the future.
After that is Mvp’s 1st in GSL Season 2 Code S 2012. There he beat a Top 5 P, Top 10 T, Top 3 Z, Top 5 P, Top 2 P, and the best protoss. In comparison to that I equated this to Life’s Blizzcon and IEM NY runs. At Blizzcon he beat a Top 1 P (though jet lagged), Top 10 P, Top 2 T and a Top 5 T. The format again was better for Mvp and so was the player list. Yes there was prestige for Life, but the era in which Mvp was playing was worse for terran against protoss than it was for zerg during Blizzcon.
In that era which according to you was so bad for Terran, there were 3 T in the top 8 of GSL. How many Zergs were at the top 8 of Life's Blizzcon? That's right, only 1. In fact, Zerg was not just the least represented race at that Blizzcon, it had been the least successful race in all WCS events in HotS up until that point.
soO's 4 silvers tilts that quite a bit
The fact that Stuchiu considers him the best Zerg in 2014 by far and he still couldn't win anything, losing multiple finals to different players should tell you something.
Yeah, it tells you that Stuchiu knows his business.
Shocker that you would chime in...
Best Zerg can't win anything, every year in HotS Zerg is the least represented race in Blizzcon, the tournament which represents the sum of an entire year's worth of tournament results, but yeah poor Mvp was playing in a hostile meta in GomTvT while Life won Blizzcon easymode with Zerg.
LOL...
How I crave for your bicolor world. It must be such a bliss.
On April 30 2015 09:40 forsooth wrote: Glad to see the King getting his due, there's never been another like him and there probably never will be again. SC2 just isn't nearly as interesting without him around.
It's hard for me to put it into words, honestly the new players should just go back and watch the god damn games, I'm sure they are enough testimony to Mvp's greatness. He showed time and time again sheer brilliance(intelligence?) in his game and sometimes it wentbeyond that, some of his games were inexplicable, it sounds silly but I feel like he sometimes transcended the game when it seemed as if every single move that happened were fitting their part in his grand plan.I've played DotA for almost 10 years, sc2 for at least 3, watched countless games and yet I can safely say that Mvp was the only player/team of any game to provide so much excitement through his play.Life though, well Life mostly just murdered people through his raw mechanical advantage for at least as long as I watched him, I doubt much of that has changed.
On April 30 2015 09:40 forsooth wrote: Glad to see the King getting his due, there's never been another like him and there probably never will be again. SC2 just isn't nearly as interesting without him around.
It's hard for me to put it into words, honestly the new players should just go back and watch the god damn games, I'm sure they are enough testimony to Mvp's greatness. He showed time and time again sheer brilliance(intelligence?) in his game and sometimes it wentbeyond that, some of his games were inexplicable, it sounds silly but I feel like he sometimes transcended the game when it seemed as if every single move that happened were fitting their part in his grand plan.I've played DotA for almost 10 years, sc2 for at least 3, watched countless games and yet I can safely say that Mvp was the only player/team of any game to provide so much excitement through his play.Life though, well Life mostly just murdered people through his raw mechanical advantage for at least as long as I watched him, I doubt much of that has changed.
On April 30 2015 09:01 brickrd wrote: as a post-mvp starcraft fan i don't care at all about mvp or any of his accomplishments, and life clearly plays in the more legitimate competitive era
Thank you for great articles and all the effort! The only thing I particularly disagree with is the absence of Parting. Otherwise, the list is pretty close to my intuition.
On April 30 2015 09:40 forsooth wrote: Glad to see the King getting his due, there's never been another like him and there probably never will be again. SC2 just isn't nearly as interesting without him around.
It's hard for me to put it into words, honestly the new players should just go back and watch the god damn games, I'm sure they are enough testimony to Mvp's greatness. He showed time and time again sheer brilliance(intelligence?) in his game and sometimes it wentbeyond that, some of his games were inexplicable, it sounds silly but I feel like he sometimes transcended the game when it seemed as if every single move that happened were fitting their part in his grand plan.I've played DotA for almost 10 years, sc2 for at least 3, watched countless games and yet I can safely say that Mvp was the only player/team of any game to provide so much excitement through his play.Life though, well Life mostly just murdered people through his raw mechanical advantage for at least as long as I watched him, I doubt much of that has changed.
And how do you know Mvp didn't just get lucky until his luck ran out?
On April 30 2015 09:40 forsooth wrote: Glad to see the King getting his due, there's never been another like him and there probably never will be again. SC2 just isn't nearly as interesting without him around.
It's hard for me to put it into words, honestly the new players should just go back and watch the god damn games, I'm sure they are enough testimony to Mvp's greatness. He showed time and time again sheer brilliance(intelligence?) in his game and sometimes it wentbeyond that, some of his games were inexplicable, it sounds silly but I feel like he sometimes transcended the game when it seemed as if every single move that happened were fitting their part in his grand plan.I've played DotA for almost 10 years, sc2 for at least 3, watched countless games and yet I can safely say that Mvp was the only player/team of any game to provide so much excitement through his play.Life though, well Life mostly just murdered people through his raw mechanical advantage for at least as long as I watched him, I doubt much of that has changed.
And how do you know Mvp didn't just get lucky until his luck ran out?
This post. Just banhammer and be done with it already + Show Spoiler +
On April 30 2015 09:40 forsooth wrote: Glad to see the King getting his due, there's never been another like him and there probably never will be again. SC2 just isn't nearly as interesting without him around.
It's hard for me to put it into words, honestly the new players should just go back and watch the god damn games, I'm sure they are enough testimony to Mvp's greatness. He showed time and time again sheer brilliance(intelligence?) in his game and sometimes it wentbeyond that, some of his games were inexplicable, it sounds silly but I feel like he sometimes transcended the game when it seemed as if every single move that happened were fitting their part in his grand plan.I've played DotA for almost 10 years, sc2 for at least 3, watched countless games and yet I can safely say that Mvp was the only player/team of any game to provide so much excitement through his play.Life though, well Life mostly just murdered people through his raw mechanical advantage for at least as long as I watched him, I doubt much of that has changed.
And how do you know Mvp didn't just get lucky until his luck ran out?
On April 30 2015 09:40 forsooth wrote: Glad to see the King getting his due, there's never been another like him and there probably never will be again. SC2 just isn't nearly as interesting without him around.
It's hard for me to put it into words, honestly the new players should just go back and watch the god damn games, I'm sure they are enough testimony to Mvp's greatness. He showed time and time again sheer brilliance(intelligence?) in his game and sometimes it wentbeyond that, some of his games were inexplicable, it sounds silly but I feel like he sometimes transcended the game when it seemed as if every single move that happened were fitting their part in his grand plan.I've played DotA for almost 10 years, sc2 for at least 3, watched countless games and yet I can safely say that Mvp was the only player/team of any game to provide so much excitement through his play.Life though, well Life mostly just murdered people through his raw mechanical advantage for at least as long as I watched him, I doubt much of that has changed.
And how do you know Mvp didn't just get lucky until his luck ran out?
Such a painful game for me to watch again. I was wholeheartedly rooting for MVP haha. BL/Infestors aside (I think that now, looking back at it, most people acknowledge it was imbalanced), Life's tech switches were amazing.
On April 30 2015 14:31 swag_bro wrote: Basketball has no metagame that changes consistently or any balance patches because certain shoes are too imba. It's just a few tall guys running around and throwing a ball into a basket.
StarCraft II, on the other hand, is evolving every day. Players find new ways to play and there are balance patches that can change everything. Also, players play different race so that also changes things. Basketball is just who is faster and more accurate. That is all.
This is actually not true at all, the way basketball is played has changed tremendously over the years because of the invention of new offensive and defensive schemes as well as rule changes. The shot clock didn't always exist. Neither did the three point shot. Or the three second violation, or the restricted zone, or any number of rules that changed the level of contact and physicality that was permitted in the game. Comparing the best players of the 50s up through part of the 70s to the best players today is very difficult to do for precisely those reasons. They played under different rules and in a time when the overall approach was much different and in many ways simpler.
On May 01 2015 07:34 Skynx wrote: Just for reference, Mvp v Inno comeback < Mvp v Tefel comeback
I disagree. Both were pretty crazy, but that game against Bogus was otherworldly. Mvp did everything right to come back in that game.
There was a gargantuan gap in skill between Tefel and Bogus with their respective encounters with Mvp. Against everyone else at the WCS Season 1 final, Bogus had only lost 1 game to RorO.
It was also a TvT, where Mvp didn't have the mule advantage to help cushion against the huge worker deficit.
This was an awesome list. I was for life up until reading MVP's list and in particular the post injury miracles. 5 stars. Thanks for putting this together!
On May 01 2015 07:34 Skynx wrote: Just for reference, Mvp v Inno comeback < Mvp v Tefel comeback
innovation is a robot that wins GSLs, tefel is a robot that uses a random number generator to create either roaches or hydralisks at any given moment and amove them into the opponent's main
On April 30 2015 05:54 stuchiu wrote: I know most of you just read the order but #1 is 8900 words long, that is 1/4th the entire article for all 15 players combined.
I read all 8900 word.
MVP deserves to have an article about his career be that long or longer. Well done!
On April 30 2015 09:40 forsooth wrote: Glad to see the King getting his due, there's never been another like him and there probably never will be again. SC2 just isn't nearly as interesting without him around.
It's hard for me to put it into words, honestly the new players should just go back and watch the god damn games, I'm sure they are enough testimony to Mvp's greatness. He showed time and time again sheer brilliance(intelligence?) in his game and sometimes it wentbeyond that, some of his games were inexplicable, it sounds silly but I feel like he sometimes transcended the game when it seemed as if every single move that happened were fitting their part in his grand plan.I've played DotA for almost 10 years, sc2 for at least 3, watched countless games and yet I can safely say that Mvp was the only player/team of any game to provide so much excitement through his play.
It's what you get when you have a player who is at the same time intelligent, tenacious, and incredibly adaptive. Watching Mvp stomp everyone with pure knowledge and mechanics in 2011 was amazing, but even more amazing was watching him hang on to his status as a top player for almost another year when his body failed him and forced him to rely entirely on preparation and creativity. Life is a great player and it's likely he'll pass Mvp in time, but over the course of his career Mvp demonstrated a unique brilliance that nobody can match. Nothing would be better than to see him return from obscurity with his health restored and go back to making everyone else look dumb again.
2 complaints one of which i already voiced and the second relates to the first.
1st It felt as you went closer and closer to number 1 the prestige of tournament became more weighed by the run of the champion (NOT THE PLAYERS INVOLVED) and while it has been argued that "bracket luck" has been a factor for players to winning tournaments, BUT they A) still had to win the games to get the finals and then win said finals and B) Someone has to win.
2nd which i already voiced is that to be top 3 or better than mc (take your pick) you should have needed to have won at least 1 preparation style tournament and at least one weekend style tournament i dont care if mc (i'll look it up later and edit this is just an hypothetical metaphor) but 3 prep tournaments and 4-5 weekend tournaments vs teagas like 11-13 weekend tournaments and 0 prep tournaments top 3 of the greatest of the greats and you cant win the type of tournament that started many peoples love for starcraft around the world simply feels wrong i dont care if teaga goes on to win another 10 weekend tournaments and mc 0 for as long as teaga lacks a perp tournament win hes locked into 4th place of the greatest of all time until then.
Also sorry for elaborate complaints and criticism vs the praise. It needs to be said that making this list regardless of the rubric and how much you do or don't stick to it, regardless of the order for most part, some people are going to be happy and some aren't and throughout the list there are a lot close calls that im sure given how you line up certain details of run against run etc etc there might be a switch in player ranking or there might not. BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT YOU TOOK THE BALLS TO MAKE A LIST THAT TRIES ITS GOD DAM HARDEST TO BE MORE ABOUT THE FACTS THEN ABOUT FAN FAVOURITES OR PERSONAL PREFERENCE AND THAT IS A TASK THAT BASICALLY STARTS OFF ASKING FOR FAILURE AND WHEN YOU START A TASK THAT IS ALMOST A GUARANTEED F AND TO SCORE AROUND A B+ I GOTTA SAY WELL DONE AND CONGRATULATIONS.
ps i do think you even though they included several koreans, koreans that also regularly attended them i do feel you weighed foreign tournaments to high. while you went into detail as to why you did it still felt in some small cases a little high.
There's too many if's, and's, or but's involved to truly classify who is #1 and so on. This was stuchiu's personal opinion, research, and view on the history of SC2. Of course it's going to be subjective, prone to bias, and have flaws. But, stuchiu wrote an incredibly well thought out and argumentative novel.
People have their arguments, own bias, and thoughts of who should be on the list, who shouldn't be, and why they should or shouldn't be. Mvp's place as the "greatest of all time" at #1 is deserving. There's no doubt that Life is very close to the title of "greatest of all time."
Great write-up and it really captured the moments of MVP's greatness for the people who weren't lucky enough to have experienced and followed it. Life is AMAZING, but what MVP has accomplished and his story from the SC2 scene, when it was more competitive; is what I remember most about the game. He is definitely the best player to have ever graced it. MVP, the one true king!
we're considering releasing mini-write ups for the players who are close to breaking into the top 15 (and maybe what they have to do to get in and where they'd land) if there is enough interest for it
I am also of the inclination that Life should have been #1. But MVP was at very least a close second, and arguably #1. But really, it's not that black and white IMO. The sodium content of this thread is quite unbelievable and I am quite enjoying poking back in here and reading it!
On May 01 2015 15:49 lichter wrote: we're considering releasing mini-write ups for the players who are close to breaking into the top 15 (and maybe what they have to do to get in and where they'd land) if there is enough interest for it
Someway include idra, naniwa, stephano, thorzain, jinro, tester, rainbow, fruit dealer and losira. But i doupt that anyone exept stephano comes close T_T
This was the best SC2-related article I've ever read. Truly captures the magnificence that was Mvp in his prime - but also when he wasn't in his prime, but managed to win anyway. Almost brought me to tears.
It was a glorious time, watching Mvp beat the very best players against all the odds stacked against him and against everyone's expectations. To me, Mvp is the greatest player of all time. Almost without a doubt Life will win more championships than Mvp (maybe even more GSLs) and reach a higher level of skill. But I don't think we will ever see a player perform so well considering the circumstances, with physical pain and difficult metas. Mvp is nothing but unique. Such a player!
It's such a terrible shame he suffered so much physically. One can only imagine what he could've achieved if he had stayed healthy. While he has surprised us so many times before, I don't think Mvp will come back to his same level. I miss his play. Watching Mvp play was the best time for me as SC2 fan. Thank you Stuchiu for this article, and so many thanks to Mvp for putting on this fantastic show.
On May 01 2015 15:49 lichter wrote: we're considering releasing mini-write ups for the players who are close to breaking into the top 15 (and maybe what they have to do to get in and where they'd land) if there is enough interest for it
On May 01 2015 14:20 bulletbill wrote: LOVED THE ENTIRE SERIES
2 complaints one of which i already voiced and the second relates to the first.
1st It felt as you went closer and closer to number 1 the prestige of tournament became more weighed by the run of the champion (NOT THE PLAYERS INVOLVED) and while it has been argued that "bracket luck" has been a factor for players to winning tournaments, BUT they A) still had to win the games to get the finals and then win said finals and B) Someone has to win.
2nd which i already voiced is that to be top 3 or better than mc (take your pick) you should have needed to have won at least 1 preparation style tournament and at least one weekend style tournament i dont care if mc (i'll look it up later and edit this is just an hypothetical metaphor) but 3 prep tournaments and 4-5 weekend tournaments vs teagas like 11-13 weekend tournaments and 0 prep tournaments top 3 of the greatest of the greats and you cant win the type of tournament that started many peoples love for starcraft around the world simply feels wrong i dont care if teaga goes on to win another 10 weekend tournaments and mc 0 for as long as teaga lacks a perp tournament win hes locked into 4th place of the greatest of all time until then.
Also sorry for elaborate complaints and criticism vs the praise. It needs to be said that making this list regardless of the rubric and how much you do or don't stick to it, regardless of the order for most part, some people are going to be happy and some aren't and throughout the list there are a lot close calls that im sure given how you line up certain details of run against run etc etc there might be a switch in player ranking or there might not. BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT YOU TOOK THE BALLS TO MAKE A LIST THAT TRIES ITS GOD DAM HARDEST TO BE MORE ABOUT THE FACTS THEN ABOUT FAN FAVOURITES OR PERSONAL PREFERENCE AND THAT IS A TASK THAT BASICALLY STARTS OFF ASKING FOR FAILURE AND WHEN YOU START A TASK THAT IS ALMOST A GUARANTEED F AND TO SCORE AROUND A B+ I GOTTA SAY WELL DONE AND CONGRATULATIONS.
ps i do think you even though they included several koreans, koreans that also regularly attended them i do feel you weighed foreign tournaments to high. while you went into detail as to why you did it still felt in some small cases a little high.
I don't remember which run but Mvp had the hardest GSL run ever. He literally had to beat every GSL champion on the way to the finals (with the exception of Fruitdealer).
But I do agree with you about MC, althought Taeja and MC is debatable because of that streak Taeja had where he was literally unstoppable. MC has always been really good and a top and consistent player but he's never really had a dominant era like Nestea, Bomber, Mvp, Taeja or Life where it literally felt like nobody could stop them.
I'm sorry I will always respect MVP but people are way to caught up in the past and start of the SC2 era MVP won half his titles while players were still trying to figure the game out and master it's meta while Life has almost always been playing AND WINNING in a time where the competition knows the game inside and out just as much as he does while for a time when MVP was winning it almost seemed like he just knew the game better than everyone else Life has been just as consistent as MVP but in a time where SC2 is much more competitive than a large part of when MVP was dominant which means a lot to me. Nobody can really argue against 4 GSL's I understand but you still have to consider the era in which each of these players won and how well the competition knew the game and meta and its very obvious the competition was much easier early on than in the later years of SC2 which I feel needs to be taken into account more. Simply put I give more credit for a 2013+ GSL than I do for a 2009-2011 GSL where nobody knew game nearly as well as they do today. Life has played AND BEATEN a higher level of competition just as consistently as MVP did early on which is why he should be #1 imo.
On May 01 2015 21:03 InExcelsis wrote: I'm sorry I will always respect MVP but people are way to caught up in the past and start of the SC2 era MVP won half his titles while players were still trying to figure the game out and master it's meta while Life has almost always been playing AND WINNING in a time where the competition knows the game inside and out just as much as he does while for a time when MVP was winning it almost seemed like he just knew the game better than everyone else Life has been just as consistent as MVP but in a time where SC2 is much more competitive than a large part of when MVP was dominant which means a lot to me. Nobody can really argue against 4 GSL's I understand but you still have to consider the era in which each of these players won and how well the competition knew the game and meta and its very obvious the competition was much easier early on than in the later years of SC2 which I feel needs to be taken into account more. Simply put I give more credit for a 2013+ GSL than I do for a 2009-2011 GSL where nobody knew game nearly as well as they do today. Life has played AND BEATEN a higher level of competition just as consistently as MVP did early on which is why he should be #1 imo.
I think it's arguably as impressive that Mvp was so consistently dominant when nobody really knew what they were doing. One new discovery and Mvp could have been irrelevant, kinda like Jinro sadly became. But nope, Mvp dominated always.
I really do not understand the "more competitive" mantra. They all were on the same starting line. When MVP d ominated whole scene, it was because he was miles ahead over his competition. He was not time traveler who has some kind of unfair adventage.
On May 01 2015 21:03 InExcelsis wrote: I'm sorry I will always respect MVP but people are way to caught up in the past and start of the SC2 era MVP won half his titles while players were still trying to figure the game out and master it's meta while Life has almost always been playing AND WINNING in a time where the competition knows the game inside and out just as much as he does while for a time when MVP was winning it almost seemed like he just knew the game better than everyone else Life has been just as consistent as MVP but in a time where SC2 is much more competitive than a large part of when MVP was dominant which means a lot to me. Nobody can really argue against 4 GSL's I understand but you still have to consider the era in which each of these players won and how well the competition knew the game and meta and its very obvious the competition was much easier early on than in the later years of SC2 which I feel needs to be taken into account more. Simply put I give more credit for a 2013+ GSL than I do for a 2009-2011 GSL where nobody knew game nearly as well as they do today. Life has played AND BEATEN a higher level of competition just as consistently as MVP did early on which is why he should be #1 imo.
MVP was dominant in the era of the competition being worse, which leads us to the conclusion he would have done well even with good competition, especially considering he was so hampered by injury.
On May 01 2015 21:03 InExcelsis wrote: I'm sorry I will always respect MVP but people are way to caught up in the past and start of the SC2 era MVP won half his titles while players were still trying to figure the game out and master it's meta while Life has almost always been playing AND WINNING in a time where the competition knows the game inside and out just as much as he does while for a time when MVP was winning it almost seemed like he just knew the game better than everyone else Life has been just as consistent as MVP but in a time where SC2 is much more competitive than a large part of when MVP was dominant which means a lot to me. Nobody can really argue against 4 GSL's I understand but you still have to consider the era in which each of these players won and how well the competition knew the game and meta and its very obvious the competition was much easier early on than in the later years of SC2 which I feel needs to be taken into account more. Simply put I give more credit for a 2013+ GSL than I do for a 2009-2011 GSL where nobody knew game nearly as well as they do today. Life has played AND BEATEN a higher level of competition just as consistently as MVP did early on which is why he should be #1 imo.
MVP was dominant in the era of the competition being worse, which leads us to the conclusion he would have done well even with good competition, especially considering he was so hampered by injury.
Yes, because monthly GSL with mostly WC3 players is totally the same. :p
On May 01 2015 21:03 InExcelsis wrote: I'm sorry I will always respect MVP but people are way to caught up in the past and start of the SC2 era MVP won half his titles while players were still trying to figure the game out and master it's meta while Life has almost always been playing AND WINNING in a time where the competition knows the game inside and out just as much as he does while for a time when MVP was winning it almost seemed like he just knew the game better than everyone else Life has been just as consistent as MVP but in a time where SC2 is much more competitive than a large part of when MVP was dominant which means a lot to me. Nobody can really argue against 4 GSL's I understand but you still have to consider the era in which each of these players won and how well the competition knew the game and meta and its very obvious the competition was much easier early on than in the later years of SC2 which I feel needs to be taken into account more. Simply put I give more credit for a 2013+ GSL than I do for a 2009-2011 GSL where nobody knew game nearly as well as they do today. Life has played AND BEATEN a higher level of competition just as consistently as MVP did early on which is why he should be #1 imo.
MVP was dominant in the era of the competition being worse, which leads us to the conclusion he would have done well even with good competition, especially considering he was so hampered by injury.
Yes, because monthly GSL with mostly WC3 players is totally the same. :p
If you look into foreign scene, WC3 players well a lot better than BW players.
On May 01 2015 15:49 lichter wrote: we're considering releasing mini-write ups for the players who are close to breaking into the top 15 (and maybe what they have to do to get in and where they'd land) if there is enough interest for it
On May 01 2015 21:03 InExcelsis wrote: I'm sorry I will always respect MVP but people are way to caught up in the past and start of the SC2 era MVP won half his titles while players were still trying to figure the game out and master it's meta while Life has almost always been playing AND WINNING in a time where the competition knows the game inside and out just as much as he does while for a time when MVP was winning it almost seemed like he just knew the game better than everyone else Life has been just as consistent as MVP but in a time where SC2 is much more competitive than a large part of when MVP was dominant which means a lot to me. Nobody can really argue against 4 GSL's I understand but you still have to consider the era in which each of these players won and how well the competition knew the game and meta and its very obvious the competition was much easier early on than in the later years of SC2 which I feel needs to be taken into account more. Simply put I give more credit for a 2013+ GSL than I do for a 2009-2011 GSL where nobody knew game nearly as well as they do today. Life has played AND BEATEN a higher level of competition just as consistently as MVP did early on which is why he should be #1 imo.
What dictates competition though? Are you saying that the competition that Mvp faced wouldn't be on par with if those players were around today when the "game has been figured out" more? So, the innovators, the ones who figured the game out for the pros now, who had to watch hours of VODs based on their play and adapt to their styles and work out kinks, are less than what pros are today? You could easily make this argument IF Life was dominant first and fell off while Mvp began his rise when Life began. Would your argument change then? Saying that Mvp is better than life because he's playing NOW and not when Life was playing?
It's hard to say that competition when Mvp was dominant is less than the competition than what Life faces today. There's too many factors that play into this. MMA, Nestea, Squirtle, MC, MKP, Leenock, HerO are all less of players than Innovation, herO, Zest, Dark, Dream, Bbyong, Stats? If you matched their primes with the primes of the players now, I would strongly argue that the "lesser, older" pros would beat the "newer, more able" pros.
Winning a GSL or title isn't everything. Mvp was innovative and created strategies that players use and have adapted today.
On April 30 2015 06:30 Xrero wrote: If Mvp transitioned late into SC2, he wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as Life. There are much more talented players currently. Mvp played in an era where MKP and Nestea consistently made GSL finals... He was smart and skilled for the time though.
He did play in an era where mkp and nestea made GSL finals. He also played in an era where MMA and DRG made GSL finals, and an era where squirtle made finals, and life. He fought through GomTvT and the broodlord infester era, four gates and three base turtles. To only look at the first 6 months of his career is blinding yourself to why he's #1 here. Still, I could see either him or life on top of The GOAT list when all is said and done.
On May 01 2015 18:46 Eliezar wrote: The greatest nonKorean's of all time would be nice too.
4. Snute 3. Jinro 2. Naniwa 1. Stephano
Who else is there?
IdrA Thorzain HuK Sen Nerchio
And even though Scarlett never won something big she should probably still make the list
Totally, 6-1ing Polt at that Red Bull battlegrounds was inspiring.
Edit: damn iPhone, accidentally double posted. Can I delete this? I forget how.
Damn that's awkward.
Anyway, I'd also say that rounding out that list are Dimaga, White-Ra and Mana. It's mostly old history there, but it's not like their achievements never happened.
On May 01 2015 21:03 InExcelsis wrote: I'm sorry I will always respect MVP but people are way to caught up in the past and start of the SC2 era MVP won half his titles while players were still trying to figure the game out and master it's meta while Life has almost always been playing AND WINNING in a time where the competition knows the game inside and out just as much as he does while for a time when MVP was winning it almost seemed like he just knew the game better than everyone else Life has been just as consistent as MVP but in a time where SC2 is much more competitive than a large part of when MVP was dominant which means a lot to me. Nobody can really argue against 4 GSL's I understand but you still have to consider the era in which each of these players won and how well the competition knew the game and meta and its very obvious the competition was much easier early on than in the later years of SC2 which I feel needs to be taken into account more. Simply put I give more credit for a 2013+ GSL than I do for a 2009-2011 GSL where nobody knew game nearly as well as they do today. Life has played AND BEATEN a higher level of competition just as consistently as MVP did early on which is why he should be #1 imo.
This argument is like claiming I am smarter than Newton/ Einstein because I would know more than him due to the modern education is way more advance than their days.
Knowledge wise that might be true - we might all know more stuff than Einstein. But few would agree that I am smarter/greater than Einstein.
On May 01 2015 21:03 InExcelsis wrote: I'm sorry I will always respect MVP but people are way to caught up in the past and start of the SC2 era MVP won half his titles while players were still trying to figure the game out and master it's meta while Life has almost always been playing AND WINNING in a time where the competition knows the game inside and out just as much as he does while for a time when MVP was winning it almost seemed like he just knew the game better than everyone else Life has been just as consistent as MVP but in a time where SC2 is much more competitive than a large part of when MVP was dominant which means a lot to me. Nobody can really argue against 4 GSL's I understand but you still have to consider the era in which each of these players won and how well the competition knew the game and meta and its very obvious the competition was much easier early on than in the later years of SC2 which I feel needs to be taken into account more. Simply put I give more credit for a 2013+ GSL than I do for a 2009-2011 GSL where nobody knew game nearly as well as they do today. Life has played AND BEATEN a higher level of competition just as consistently as MVP did early on which is why he should be #1 imo.
This argument is like claiming I am smarter than Newton/ Einstein because I would know more than him due to the modern education is way more advance than their days.
Knowledge wise that might be true - we might all know more stuff than Einstein. But few would agree that I am smarter/greater than Einstein.
Even fewer still would agree that you would innovate as much as Einstein Innovated.
On May 01 2015 21:03 InExcelsis wrote: I'm sorry I will always respect MVP but people are way to caught up in the past and start of the SC2 era MVP won half his titles while players were still trying to figure the game out and master it's meta while Life has almost always been playing AND WINNING in a time where the competition knows the game inside and out just as much as he does while for a time when MVP was winning it almost seemed like he just knew the game better than everyone else Life has been just as consistent as MVP but in a time where SC2 is much more competitive than a large part of when MVP was dominant which means a lot to me. Nobody can really argue against 4 GSL's I understand but you still have to consider the era in which each of these players won and how well the competition knew the game and meta and its very obvious the competition was much easier early on than in the later years of SC2 which I feel needs to be taken into account more. Simply put I give more credit for a 2013+ GSL than I do for a 2009-2011 GSL where nobody knew game nearly as well as they do today. Life has played AND BEATEN a higher level of competition just as consistently as MVP did early on which is why he should be #1 imo.
This argument is like claiming I am smarter than Newton/ Einstein because I would know more than him due to the modern education is way more advance than their days.
Knowledge wise that might be true - we might all know more stuff than Einstein. But few would agree that I am smarter/greater than Einstein.
Even fewer still would agree that you would innovate as much as Einstein Innovated.
The question everyone wanna ask is where is Mvp now. He will have to join the army soon so I guess he's not coming back, at least in the next few years. But we need an official statement!!!
I personally like that Mvp is #1, no doubt about that, but no matter where he wouldve ended up in the top3 (not lower! XD) it was the only article i read paying full attention and it was excellent, huge respect to Stuchiu and helpers for creating this series!
edit: seeing the salt about life not #1... well if life is your 1# isnt that the most important part? at least your favorite player still plays QQ
On May 02 2015 18:04 sibs wrote: These comparisons between basketball players, newton & einstein, are utterly ridiculous, the game is 5 years old, not 50.
Pre-kespa switch it was much easier to dominate, easier yet if you played Terran during the gomTvT era.
The greatness from Mvp doesn't just come from his dominance during the early era, but from his perseverance during the following. The guy couldn't feel his wrists and still could have (and should have) beaten life using the same strat seven times. Came back against Innovation and made life generally very difficult against anyone. Life is amazing, which is why he is second in all time greatness, but you couldn't write 8900 words on him.
If the competition wasn't as strong back then is irrelevant.
The only kind of unfairness is that there was 9 GSL seasons in 2011. NINE. Now there are 3. If you had a dominanting period you had way more chances of getting some valueable championships.
But nothing we can do about it so it's whatever. Life will surpass Mvp in like a few months anyway
On May 02 2015 19:06 Rocket-Bear wrote: If the competition wasn't as strong back then is irrelevant.
The only kind of unfairness is that there was 9 GSL seasons in 2011. NINE. Now there are 3. If you had a dominanting period you had way more chances of getting some valueable championships.
But nothing we can do about it so it's whatever. Life will surpass Mvp in like a few months anyway
More tournaments also means more chances to break your streak of dominance. There are pros and cons to both. What ifs are bad arguments. I could similarly say that Life's on and off form through his career suggests he would not have won more titles in a more frequent tournament circuit. Or he could have in equal measur. Again, a bad argument to make.
On May 02 2015 19:06 Rocket-Bear wrote: If the competition wasn't as strong back then is irrelevant.
The only kind of unfairness is that there was 9 GSL seasons in 2011. NINE. Now there are 3. If you had a dominanting period you had way more chances of getting some valueable championships.
But nothing we can do about it so it's whatever. Life will surpass Mvp in like a few months anyway
More tournaments also means more chances to break your streak of dominance. There are pros and cons to both. What ifs are bad arguments. I could similarly say that Life's on and off form through his career suggests he would not have won more titles in a more frequent tournament circuit. Or he could have in equal measur. Again, a bad argument to make.
It'd be a bad argument if bad performances counted against you, Stuchiu is mostly just listing achivements, so its fine.
Right now in korea we have a lot of tournaments so we'll get to see what happens with Life's consistency, he's also a bit older right, he was in middle school when he won GSL(LOL), again the field is much denser than when Mvp won anything.
On May 02 2015 19:06 Rocket-Bear wrote: If the competition wasn't as strong back then is irrelevant.
The only kind of unfairness is that there was 9 GSL seasons in 2011. NINE. Now there are 3. If you had a dominanting period you had way more chances of getting some valueable championships.
But nothing we can do about it so it's whatever. Life will surpass Mvp in like a few months anyway
There are now also 3 SSLs which are more or less equally relevant.
On May 03 2015 02:16 DomeGetta wrote: I'm so confused at how Maru didn't make the top 10?
He has won a grand total of 2 Premier Tournaments in a nearly 5 year long career. He has not significantly defined the Terran meta (since his style is his own). He can still become the greatest, being the youngest player on this list, but putting him ahead of any of the top 10 wouldn't be adequate.
Well written all in all and I'm glad they didn't put Nestea at #2. Still doesn't save it from being the nostalgic circlejerk scam article that it is. Such a waste of time.
On May 03 2015 02:30 Giding_man wrote: Well written all in all and I'm glad they didn't put Nestea at #2. Still doesn't save it from being the nostalgic circlejerk scam article that it is. Such a waste of time.
You're more than welcome to offer detailed criticism instead of unspecific bashing
On May 01 2015 15:49 lichter wrote: we're considering releasing mini-write ups for the players who are close to breaking into the top 15 (and maybe what they have to do to get in and where they'd land) if there is enough interest for it
First time i log on TL (Work family, not having time for SC anymore) and i find this i finf that i didnt watch so many great games so much history... man... i need some time for my self again... fuck med school... im going to watch all of this finals and all hail MVP.
Life will overtake Mvp as best at some point. And its when I think of that that I most lament his injury. Just think of what he could have achieved with wrists that worked. An unbelievable talent and a genius. His GSL victory over Squirtle is still the greatest SC2 memory I have, watching it at a Barcraft in Sydney. Never been so hyped in my life.
On May 04 2015 22:01 LimitSEA wrote: Life will overtake Mvp as best at some point. And its when I think of that that I most lament his injury. Just think of what he could have achieved with wrists that worked. An unbelievable talent and a genius. His GSL victory over Squirtle is still the greatest SC2 memory I have, watching it at a Barcraft in Sydney. Never been so hyped in my life.
Its hard to ever outdo MVP not because of total achievements, but because of how he achieved them.
When Flash was winning everything, or when Michael Jordan was redefining basketball, there was no doubt in anyone's minds who was on top of the heap.
But with MVP, he was literally at the bottom of the heap, everytime. We always thought "now this is when MVP is out" and everytime we thought that, everytime we were sure that he has gotten too injured, too old, too slow, too inconsequential--he suddenly rattles off a series of wins in long BoX series to win the game. All of them? No. But when he absolutely had to? For glory? For honor? For family? MVP was dominating AFTER he stopped being relevant, after we were certain it was over.
That's the legacy he left. Its not that he was above everyone else (although he was early in his career) but that he continued to be so after everyone, including himself, thought so too. Through sheer force of fucking-pitch a blue card-pay 1 life- will.
On May 04 2015 22:01 LimitSEA wrote: Life will overtake Mvp as best at some point. And its when I think of that that I most lament his injury. Just think of what he could have achieved with wrists that worked. An unbelievable talent and a genius. His GSL victory over Squirtle is still the greatest SC2 memory I have, watching it at a Barcraft in Sydney. Never been so hyped in my life.
Its hard to ever outdo MVP not because of total achievements, but because of how he achieved them.
When Flash was winning everything, or when Michael Jordan was redefining basketball, there was no doubt in anyone's minds who was on top of the heap.
But with MVP, he was literally at the bottom of the heap, everytime. We always thought "now this is when MVP is out" and everytime we thought that, everytime we were sure that he has gotten too injured, too old, too slow, too inconsequential--he suddenly rattles off a series of wins in long BoX series to win the game. All of them? No. But when he absolutely had to? For glory? For honor? For family? MVP was dominating AFTER he stopped being relevant, after we were certain it was over.
That's the legacy he left. Its not that he was above everyone else (although he was early in his career) but that he continued to be so after everyone, including himself, thought so too. Through sheer force of fucking-pitch a blue card-pay 1 life- will.
I love the Magic the Gathering reference at the end there
On May 04 2015 22:01 LimitSEA wrote: Life will overtake Mvp as best at some point. And its when I think of that that I most lament his injury. Just think of what he could have achieved with wrists that worked. An unbelievable talent and a genius. His GSL victory over Squirtle is still the greatest SC2 memory I have, watching it at a Barcraft in Sydney. Never been so hyped in my life.
Its hard to ever outdo MVP not because of total achievements, but because of how he achieved them.
When Flash was winning everything, or when Michael Jordan was redefining basketball, there was no doubt in anyone's minds who was on top of the heap.
But with MVP, he was literally at the bottom of the heap, everytime. We always thought "now this is when MVP is out" and everytime we thought that, everytime we were sure that he has gotten too injured, too old, too slow, too inconsequential--he suddenly rattles off a series of wins in long BoX series to win the game. All of them? No. But when he absolutely had to? For glory? For honor? For family? MVP was dominating AFTER he stopped being relevant, after we were certain it was over.
That's the legacy he left. Its not that he was above everyone else (although he was early in his career) but that he continued to be so after everyone, including himself, thought so too. Through sheer force of fucking-pitch a blue card-pay 1 life- will.
I love the Magic the Gathering reference at the end there
Haha not very surprising from a person called Theiving Magpie =).
On May 03 2015 09:46 ShambhalaWar wrote: No fruit dealer anywhere?
Fruit dealer did not have longevity or lasting innovation.
True. I feel like FruitDealer no matter what will have a place in Top 25 or so, though. He was the very first GSL Champion, a feat that can never be done again. He will never, ever be forgotten and he will live on for years to come. As far as legacy goes he's a decently high player on the list for sure.
On May 03 2015 09:46 ShambhalaWar wrote: No fruit dealer anywhere?
Fruit dealer did not have longevity or lasting innovation.
True. I feel like FruitDealer no matter what will have a place in Top 25 or so, though. He was the very first GSL Champion, a feat that can never be done again. He will never, ever be forgotten and he will live on for years to come. As far as legacy goes he's a decently high player on the list for sure.
What I mostly feel about legacy is not as much about people remembering your name, but defining something core in how we play the game. MKP, for example, though not the first to split, definitely solidified the nature of marine splits as core to terran. Kyrix (doesn't get enough love) was the same in his initial use of both gasless expands (spanishiwa eventually solidified this) and heavy use of banelings for midgame combat in ZvT (DRG eventually solidified this as well).
On May 03 2015 09:46 ShambhalaWar wrote: No fruit dealer anywhere?
Fruit dealer did not have longevity or lasting innovation.
True. I feel like FruitDealer no matter what will have a place in Top 25 or so, though. He was the very first GSL Champion, a feat that can never be done again. He will never, ever be forgotten and he will live on for years to come. As far as legacy goes he's a decently high player on the list for sure.
FruitDealer was also most likely the best player for at least the last 2 months of WoL beta, no matter what idra says. Also he won the GSL when zerg was widely considered to be extreamly underpowered. Even thou many considered him to be the best player of the tournament since the start, most did not believe a zerg could do good because unbalance. How often do you see blizzard give huge buffs to a race right after it won a GSL?
But anyway I dont know would he be placed even on top 40 because i remember stuchiu saying something like "early tournaments dont matter because everyone played bad lol".
LOTV is still in beta. Did MVP even play at all during HOTS? I agree that MVP is one of the GOAT but making him #1 when he was unstoppable for just 1/3 of SC2's competitive lifespan is really strange to me.
On May 07 2015 09:22 Sprouter wrote: LOTV is still in beta. Did MVP even play at all during HOTS? I agree that MVP is one of the GOAT but making him #1 when he was unstoppable for just 1/3 of SC2's competitive lifespan is really strange to me.
Mvp won his WCS EU season during HotS, and being unstoppable for 1/3 of all of SC2's lifespan is a lot.
On May 07 2015 09:36 Cele wrote: I think MVP's highest accomplishment is taking a map of Flash in 2010 Hana Daetoo MSL.
Looks like Mvp beat Flash 1-0, then Flash wouldn't take any of that and went undefeated for the rest of the tournament. Basically, Flash only won because of Mvp.
On May 07 2015 09:36 Cele wrote: I think MVP's highest accomplishment is taking a map of Flash in 2010 Hana Daetoo MSL.
Looks like Mvp beat Flash 1-0, then Flash wouldn't take any of that and went undefeated for the rest of the tournament. Basically, Flash only won because of Mvp.
for the curious: this was MVP's best phase in Broodwar, he retired not so long afterwards and then came back for Wol.
On May 07 2015 09:36 Cele wrote: I think MVP's highest accomplishment is taking a map of Flash in 2010 Hana Daetoo MSL.
Looks like Mvp beat Flash 1-0, then Flash wouldn't take any of that and went undefeated for the rest of the tournament. Basically, Flash only won because of Mvp.
for the curious: this was MVP's best phase in Broodwar, he retired not so long afterwards and then came back for Wol.
yeah looking at it, seems that he beat Stork, Best, and TY to reach Flash. Not bad.
Showing up to the comment party very late, but what Life did, was over 2 expansions, Mvp won during WoL, forget about him wading through a weak foreign filled WCS 2013 S1 field. Life won stacked tournaments in WoL and HotS.
On May 02 2015 19:06 Rocket-Bear wrote: If the competition wasn't as strong back then is irrelevant.
The only kind of unfairness is that there was 9 GSL seasons in 2011. NINE. Now there are 3. If you had a dominanting period you had way more chances of getting some valueable championships.
But nothing we can do about it so it's whatever. Life will surpass Mvp in like a few months anyway
More tournaments also means more chances to break your streak of dominance. There are pros and cons to both. What ifs are bad arguments. I could similarly say that Life's on and off form through his career suggests he would not have won more titles in a more frequent tournament circuit. Or he could have in equal measur. Again, a bad argument to make.
If you are the BEST player in the world for 3 months, and unbeatable during them, in toll you win 3 GSL's, in 2014-2015 you win 1. That's why more GSL's benefit you bud, not a bad argument.
On May 02 2015 19:06 Rocket-Bear wrote: If the competition wasn't as strong back then is irrelevant.
The only kind of unfairness is that there was 9 GSL seasons in 2011. NINE. Now there are 3. If you had a dominanting period you had way more chances of getting some valueable championships.
But nothing we can do about it so it's whatever. Life will surpass Mvp in like a few months anyway
More tournaments also means more chances to break your streak of dominance. There are pros and cons to both. What ifs are bad arguments. I could similarly say that Life's on and off form through his career suggests he would not have won more titles in a more frequent tournament circuit. Or he could have in equal measur. Again, a bad argument to make.
If you are the BEST player in the world for 3 months, and unbeatable during them, in toll you win 3 GSL's, in 2014-2015 you win 1. That's why more GSL's benefit you bud, not a bad argument.
And you play 3x as many tournaments and opponents, giving people more opportunity to knock you down. Winning one tournament has a higher probability than winning three. Lose one tournament and your time at the top gets cut short. With fewer tournaments, the length of time at the top stretches longer between seasons. With more tournaments, your number of potential wins increases. Like I said, pros and cons.
Looked to see if Mvp was #1, all is right. I love Life and he is just out of control, but for me Mvp set the foundation for Sc2 and as others mentioned, whenever we were like "Well Mvp is done for, no way he will get past his first round" then he wins the whole thing. For me Mvp will always be number 1 and I wish he could have stayed healthy and was at a younger age for the Kespa age and future, we'll never know
On May 07 2015 09:36 Cele wrote: I think MVP's highest accomplishment is taking a map of Flash in 2010 Hana Daetoo MSL.
Yeah I think its safe to say that MVP was easily the best BW player in the SC2 scene for almost 2years (before kespa switched to SC2). Sure there were players who were much more successful in their time that already switched (nada, boxer, july) but they played when BW was not as developed so if MVP had a time machine he would have rekt all of them in their prime.
On May 07 2015 09:36 Cele wrote: I think MVP's highest accomplishment is taking a map of Flash in 2010 Hana Daetoo MSL.
Yeah I think its safe to say that MVP was easily the best BW player in the SC2 scene for almost 2years (before kespa switched to SC2). Sure there were players who were much more successful in their time that already switched (nada, boxer, july) but they played when BW was not as developed so if MVP had a time machine he would have rekt all of them in their prime.
Boxer in his prime would have beaten MVP 99-0 in a best of 7 in Broodwar. Boxer took the current Broodwar meta and innovated with amazing control and harass that was unbelievable. Of course Boxer in his prime vs Boxer that played SC2 would have beaten the SC2 version just as bad at BW. Boxer still had some of the game sense, but wasn't near the player that he was in BW much like Nada...neither had near the ability left at their age once SC2 came around and neither focused like they did during BW.
On May 02 2015 19:06 Rocket-Bear wrote: If the competition wasn't as strong back then is irrelevant.
The only kind of unfairness is that there was 9 GSL seasons in 2011. NINE. Now there are 3. If you had a dominanting period you had way more chances of getting some valueable championships.
But nothing we can do about it so it's whatever. Life will surpass Mvp in like a few months anyway
More tournaments also means more chances to break your streak of dominance. There are pros and cons to both. What ifs are bad arguments. I could similarly say that Life's on and off form through his career suggests he would not have won more titles in a more frequent tournament circuit. Or he could have in equal measur. Again, a bad argument to make.
If you are the BEST player in the world for 3 months, and unbeatable during them, in toll you win 3 GSL's, in 2014-2015 you win 1. That's why more GSL's benefit you bud, not a bad argument.
To be fair, this isn't about the best player of all time. It is about the greatest player of all time which has to do with more than just results. So regardless if they played 9 GSLs back then and 3 now, the criteria is based on a lot more than just wins.
You can talk about consistency and innovation as much as you want but i think in terms of pure achievements life has already surpassed mvp.
Also the major thing I disagree with in the criteria is that it only considers the opponents the player has beaten during their runs and not the overall difficulty of the tournament. For example in the WCS 2012 world finals there played many strong players like herO, HerO, Rain, Curious, Roro, stephano but they all got eliminated before they could face parting. Is it partings fault that the "good" players got eliminated by other players? It's like saying germany can't be considered to be the best football team in the world because they didn't face spain at the world cup and so they had an easy path.
Most of MVP's wins are in 2011. Back then only Terran race was viable. Maybe this makes him the best T ever, but in my opinion no way he is the best player ever.
These are some great writeups, and I was happy to see MVP rightly declared the best. The part about the 'MVP Paradox' pretty much captures it spot on. After all the down and dirty analysis and comparisons, the most important thing you can say about MVP is that he would just win because he was MVP.
On May 07 2015 09:36 Cele wrote: I think MVP's highest accomplishment is taking a map of Flash in 2010 Hana Daetoo MSL.
Yeah I think its safe to say that MVP was easily the best BW player in the SC2 scene for almost 2years (before kespa switched to SC2). Sure there were players who were much more successful in their time that already switched (nada, boxer, july) but they played when BW was not as developed so if MVP had a time machine he would have rekt all of them in their prime.
Boxer in his prime would have beaten MVP 99-0 in a best of 7 in Broodwar. Boxer took the current Broodwar meta and innovated with amazing control and harass that was unbelievable. Of course Boxer in his prime vs Boxer that played SC2 would have beaten the SC2 version just as bad at BW. Boxer still had some of the game sense, but wasn't near the player that he was in BW much like Nada...neither had near the ability left at their age once SC2 came around and neither focused like they did during BW.
Without the power of replays perhaps those innovative players would have lasted a little bit longer.
The whole list was a great read. Really loved the section on MVP. Thanks for the writeup and contribution. Really brough back some great nostalgia even though I don't follow the scene much today.
I feel the same way. I don't follow the scene at all lately, but its great to remember the good old days with nestea and MVP, and also the loveable MKP. Nice memories
Fun series. No Stephano on the list kind of hurts though. When he hit the scene, no one could touch him, including the Koreans! Except maybe MVP. Maybe...
On June 08 2015 03:27 SohcranA wrote: Fun series. No Stephano on the list kind of hurts though. When he hit the scene, no one could touch him, including the Koreans! Except maybe MVP. Maybe...
On June 08 2015 02:54 radscorpion9 wrote: I feel the same way. I don't follow the scene at all lately, but its great to remember the good old days with nestea and MVP, and also the loveable MKP. Nice memories
This. I stopped playing because all my favorite players quit and the games the play these days seem boring as hell. Gotta love IMMvp.
I think non-Korean players like TLO, Jinro, Huk, Sen, Jim, Macsed and Idra should be remembered, coz they made us watch the Korean tournaments with some different expectations...
On June 08 2015 03:27 SohcranA wrote: Fun series. No Stephano on the list kind of hurts though. When he hit the scene, no one could touch him, including the Koreans! Except maybe MVP. Maybe...
lol calm down there
first year is true, only mvp and nestea was on his level or better. Sadly they didnt meet often. Stephano's 2nd year was a joke (still good enough to be (one of the) best foreigner).
Saying MVP is the best player of all time is like saying Johnny Unitas is the best QB of all time..
Johnny played in an exclusively White league that is now almost entirely black.
MVP played in an exclusively eSF league that is now almost entirely KeSPA.
In terms of skill, Innovation is the best player of all time. In terms of accomplishments, I'd still say players like Innovation and Life are ahead of MVP-- most of the players MVP played against in those early GSL days are retired now..
On October 08 2015 22:12 WaylanderSC2_ wrote: Saying MVP is the best player of all time is like saying Johnny Unitas is the best QB of all time..
Johnny played in an exclusively White league that is now almost entirely black.
MVP played in an exclusively eSF league that is now almost entirely KeSPA.
In terms of skill, Innovation is the best player of all time. In terms of accomplishments, I'd still say players like Innovation and Life are ahead of MVP-- most of the players MVP played against in those early GSL days are retired now..
That's tricky. Do you know Pele? When he played there were not goalkeeper trainers. How can we judge him the best football/soccer player of all times if he played against shitty goalkeepers?
On October 08 2015 22:12 WaylanderSC2_ wrote: Saying MVP is the best player of all time is like saying Johnny Unitas is the best QB of all time..
Johnny played in an exclusively White league that is now almost entirely black.
MVP played in an exclusively eSF league that is now almost entirely KeSPA.
In terms of skill, Innovation is the best player of all time. In terms of accomplishments, I'd still say players like Innovation and Life are ahead of MVP-- most of the players MVP played against in those early GSL days are retired now..
That's tricky. Do you know Pele? When he played there were not goalkeeper trainers. How can we judge him the best football/soccer player of all times if he played against shitty goalkeepers?
I think it's stupid to compare different eras together.
Babe Ruth played when there were hardly any trainers, no black or Latino players in the league, and weight training was almost non existent.
Saying he is the best player of all time, compared to players like Barry Bonds or Albert Puljos is just stupid. If Babe played in the league now he'd get his ass whooped, same as if MVP in his prime played at the moment.
Imagine if NFL switched to a different league, and then the good NFL players stayed in the NFL and the bad ones joined "GFL." A player pretty good in the NFL(MVP) decided to switch to the GFL, in which he dominates. Eventually, the rest of the NFL players join the GFL, almost immediately replacing all GFL players and forcing MVP to retire.
MVPs results realistically don't mean much when he was playing against such weak competition.
I agree that Mvp falls into this "Babe Ruth vs. Barry Bonds" problem, and it's kind of an impossible issue to resolve.
It comes down to what you think it means to be the greatest of all time. Greatest relative to the people you played against, or greatest relative to everyone who ever played the game?
Neither one feels quite right. It's almost certainly true that Ruth would get destroyed in modern-day baseball, and that Mvp could never have competed with today's elite players. But their accomplishments in their own era are what we can actually observe, whereas the grand tournament of every player in history is just an impossible counterfactual.
I guess the point is, all-time rankings are inherently really subjective and kind of silly.
I seem to remember a bruised Mvp taking INnoVation to game 5 in WCS season 1 finals. Of course Mvp is probably not as mechanically gifted as INno. But I strongly disagree he was an obviously weaker player... even though INnoVation is a beast.
Imo you always have to look at it through the eyes of history. Half-life was great, Nokia 3210 was great and MVP was great, even though none of them holds up today. I even doubt that Elvis or The Beatles would ever get a contract today. But in their time, they made an impact, and that impact can kinda be rated, although subjectively. If this were more quantifiable sports, you could statistically see how much better one person was than the rest of the field, but not sure if thats possible in SC2.
It's also worth noting that players like Inno had all the work Mvp had already done to build on. If Mvp was starting out in his prime with all the same stuff that they had, he'd likely still have been dominant for as long; they had a massive handicap by the fact that he'd already done so much of the work for them.