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On March 18 2015 01:43 Tenks wrote:
I do know a common complaint about previous eSport fans of SC2 is that the games were monotonous. As an avid player I understand the subtle differences and mindgames going on during the games but the majority of the games still end up with MMMV vs Gateway+Colossus and often times it is difficult to understand why one side won unless you really know the intricacies. So the complaint of "every game is the same" is somewhat valid. With some form of ban/draft phase you could at least force the metagame a tad. But I do like the idea of being able to ban/draft upgrades instead of units. That is a really smart idea IMO.
And then everybody bans the Terrans from using stim.
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On March 18 2015 03:17 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2015 01:43 Tenks wrote:
I do know a common complaint about previous eSport fans of SC2 is that the games were monotonous. As an avid player I understand the subtle differences and mindgames going on during the games but the majority of the games still end up with MMMV vs Gateway+Colossus and often times it is difficult to understand why one side won unless you really know the intricacies. So the complaint of "every game is the same" is somewhat valid. With some form of ban/draft phase you could at least force the metagame a tad. But I do like the idea of being able to ban/draft upgrades instead of units. That is a really smart idea IMO. And then everybody bans the Terrans from using stim.
Well that's not to be conceptualized with SC2 as we know it exactly now. Maybe with upgrades such as splash damage for vikings or all the crazy shit from the campaigns there would be worse things to be banned than stim for a non-T player.
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Great idea for a discussion.
C&C Generals had 3 races
C&C RA and Tiberian Sun had 2 races
It kinda feels like with a few exceptions, 3 (or less) is the magic number.
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I really like the idea of drafting units and/or upgrades. I mean I could very well imagine a group of "core units and upgrades" for each race that are unbannable, and then a group of "units/upgrades of choice" that you can choose from/ban. Kind of a "do your own faction" if you will. That way, each player can create his own variant of a race.
This would also help the balance team immensely as it would kinda work like a MOBA: any kind of obviously OP stuff would get insta-banned, but there would not be any need for emergency patching. Plus, having optionnal stuff would leave blizz free to rework unused units/upgrades in between patches (and nerfing the overused ones), which would keep the game fresher (as there could be something new to look to every season or two). It would also allow having several units that slightly overlap (imagine having the choice between having vultures, helions or both ?)
It would also add some complexity/strategy to the game, as well as requiring more adaptation and quick thinking. Less "I'll just do the same build all day e'rry day on all maps". But that's just my 2 cents.
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On March 19 2015 23:30 LoneYoShi wrote:
I really like the idea of drafting units and/or upgrades. I mean I could very well imagine a group of "core units and upgrades" for each race that are unbannable, and then a group of "units/upgrades of choice" that you can choose from/ban. Kind of a "do your own faction" if you will. That way, each player can create his own variant of a race.
This would also help the balance team immensely as it would kinda work like a MOBA: any kind of obviously OP stuff would get insta-banned, but there would not be any need for emergency patching. Plus, having optionnal stuff would leave blizz free to rework unused units/upgrades in between patches (and nerfing the overused ones), which would keep the game fresher (as there could be something new to look to every season or two). It would also allow having several units that slightly overlap (imagine having the choice between having vultures, helions or both ?)
It would also add some complexity/strategy to the game, as well as requiring more adaptation and quick thinking. Less "I'll just do the same build all day e'rry day on all maps". But that's just my 2 cents.
Totally agree with everything, maybe except for drafting units. I'm fine with upgrade drafting, but I don't think drafting units could be done in a sensible way.
As said earlier, I would like a system where there are different "versions" of upgrades for certain units. For example, you could choose charge, splash, or extra health for Zealots. Your opponent could ban one, and you could choose from the remaining two (maybe even without your opponent knowing which one you chose, I don't know). Then you could have this triple upgrade choice for other units as well, which would give a nice variety of games.
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I really wouldn't like any kind of pre-game myself. I'd like to jump straight in and get playing thank you very much.
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That would be pretty sick.
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I'm a long time BW player and been with SC2 since the start.
I imagined another race for StarCraft .. pure mechanical race. An AI race. Almost like the Terminator movies. It would sort of set up all the races on a continuum - Zerg is totally bio, Terran and protoss a mix, and new racing being fully Artificial.
I imagined the story arch being that the Terran create it to battle the zerg, and of course it works really well but then gets out of hand and becomes the real enemy.
Would be awesome.
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On March 20 2015 06:40 CursOr wrote:
I'm a long time BW player and been with SC2 since the start.
I imagined another race for StarCraft .. pure mechanical race. An AI race. Almost like the Terminator movies. It would sort of set up all the races on a continuum - Zerg is totally bio, Terran and protoss a mix, and new racing being fully Artificial.
I imagined the story arch being that the Terran create it to battle the zerg, and of course it works really well but then gets out of hand and becomes the real enemy.
Would be awesome.
Sounds like the plot of Avengers 2 ! We shall name this race the "Ultrons".
:D
On a more serious note, the idea of a purely mechanical race is intriguing. I mean I'm not sure adding a 4th race is possible (due to everything that was discussed previously), but if it is possible, a fully mechanical one could be fun.
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On March 17 2015 23:40 Raneth wrote:In my opinion, the main reason sc2 is dying is because its changing -too much- and it is driving players away, much like WoW. Nobody wants to invest 20 hours a week into something, to have their progress made largely irrelivant by a balance patch or expansion. Adding a new race would probably get you a big influx of players, but you would hugely irritate all the existing players who have spent months of time perfecting their build orders for each match up. I think instability is the greatest threat to esports 
the breadth of strategies being employed in the last year have remained virtually the same. are we talking about SC2 and Blizzard's shitty patches or another game here lol
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Hey guys got one more idea. I think it would ease the work if 3rd resource type would be introduced, if we are not considering supply as resource type. It could be something that 4th race would require more than the 3 other factions. Something like Protoss requires gas now compared to other 2 factions.
Now, the 3rd resource type wouldn't be in your main or natural. It could have some kind of specific mining type. The resource should be considered more valuable than gas, and be in strategically hard to obtain places, like middle of the map, or even guarded by neutral factors. It should be in the way that 4th faction requires it the most, but has the easiest potential to mine it.
Not all units would require it. But some units in current 3 races would require it, while the 4th race would need it necessarily to Tech, making the extremes of all-ins and timing attacks even more. Also, map presence and map control.
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4 races is fine, and the most important thing that 4 races is fun and much deeper gameplay involved in every matchup. Those who played war3 knows this.
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On March 23 2015 18:56 Tome5 wrote:
Hey guys got one more idea. I think it would ease the work if 3rd resource type would be introduced, if we are not considering supply as resource type. It could be something that 4th race would require more than the 3 other factions. Something like Protoss requires gas now compared to other 2 factions.
Now, the 3rd resource type wouldn't be in your main or natural. It could have some kind of specific mining type. The resource should be considered more valuable than gas, and be in strategically hard to obtain places, like middle of the map, or even guarded by neutral factors. It should be in the way that 4th faction requires it the most, but has the easiest potential to mine it.
Not all units would require it. But some units in current 3 races would require it, while the 4th race would need it necessarily to Tech, making the extremes of all-ins and timing attacks even more. Also, map presence and map control.
I dunno. I mean zerg also need gas right now, and so do terrans when playing mech. I don't think adding another ressource (one more "dimension" in the game) would simplify anything tbh.
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On March 17 2015 23:40 Raneth wrote:In my opinion, the main reason sc2 is dying is because its changing -too much- and it is driving players away, much like WoW. Nobody wants to invest 20 hours a week into something, to have their progress made largely irrelivant by a balance patch or expansion. Adding a new race would probably get you a big influx of players, but you would hugely irritate all the existing players who have spent months of time perfecting their build orders for each match up. I think instability is the greatest threat to esports
I disagree here immensely. Unless you are absolute top tier pretty much everything from WoL carried over to HotS which will carry over to LotV. Most games of SC are still more a battle against yourself than your opponent until you get to a certain level.
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On March 16 2015 16:04 Riquiz wrote:
Well if we look at WC3, it seems possible kinda?
Maybe wc3 was a better game for having more races because of tavern heroes and stuff?(I have never played wc3).
Maybe sc2 is easier to balance 4 races because the races do not have crazy hero units and such?
It's a tough one for sure, I personally welcome the idea and it would be very fun to me, but probably destroy competative play for quite awhile, if not, forever.
(Just wait for WC4 to come after LoTV hehehehehe)
wc3 was never full balanced
there was matchups win winrates like 80+% that was nearly unwinable at all
starcraft winrates when people scream for nerfs and how op a race is are like 56% ... never above 59%
4 races are NOT balancable totaly that every mu is fair
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Still waiting for Space Orcs to be added to the game.
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I think a 4rth race is a bad idea.
Not because its too hard or balance or whatever--that's arbitrary. Warcraft 3, the Age of ____ series, etc... all work with 3+ races. The problem with a 4rth race in Starcraft is identity and brand. Just as its arbitrary that 3 is the number of races starcraft has--adding a 4rth will do nothing but make that brand of starcraft "different" or "othered" by the previous brands of starcraft.
Now... splitting the races to factions is something that would actually be fantastic and creates a lot more drama in matches as it allows different players to emphasize different aspects of their skills while still being 90%-95% similar to their other races. It would also allow buffs of the late game units each faction exemplifies.
For example, lets say theres a Light Templar faction (without DTs, but has a buffed High Templar) and a Dark Templar faction (without High Templar, but a buffed DT)
One faction could be the reaver faction, the other the colossus faction
One the medivac faction, the other the medic/dropship faction etc...
And they can make signature units stronger knowing that each race loses something for that buff. It'd be awesome for viewers especially if neither viewers nor the opponent can tell which faction they are fighting. The games would be 90% similar until tier 3 tech happens and suddenly "Oh no! High Templars!"
People would get excited with anticipation as they track upgrades, build order, and expansion styles to figure out what late game unit the player is prepping for.
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On March 19 2015 23:30 LoneYoShi wrote:
I really like the idea of drafting units and/or upgrades. I mean I could very well imagine a group of "core units and upgrades" for each race that are unbannable, and then a group of "units/upgrades of choice" that you can choose from/ban. Kind of a "do your own faction" if you will. That way, each player can create his own variant of a race.
This would also help the balance team immensely as it would kinda work like a MOBA: any kind of obviously OP stuff would get insta-banned, but there would not be any need for emergency patching. Plus, having optionnal stuff would leave blizz free to rework unused units/upgrades in between patches (and nerfing the overused ones), which would keep the game fresher (as there could be something new to look to every season or two). It would also allow having several units that slightly overlap (imagine having the choice between having vultures, helions or both ?)
It would also add some complexity/strategy to the game, as well as requiring more adaptation and quick thinking. Less "I'll just do the same build all day e'rry day on all maps". But that's just my 2 cents.
I've been thinking the same thing over the past couple of weeks. I think the future of the RTS genre (if it is to survive) is to get rid of the race-concept and instead create a pick/ban-system. You can in theory have like 40-60 different units to choose from since it would be ok if each unit would be overlapping here.
I feel that just - besides making it easier to balance - also opens rooms for alot more diversity and new options. Moreover, you could create a F2P-model based on this (since it wouldn't be dead neccesary to own all units).
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On March 24 2015 00:34 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 23:30 LoneYoShi wrote:
I really like the idea of drafting units and/or upgrades. I mean I could very well imagine a group of "core units and upgrades" for each race that are unbannable, and then a group of "units/upgrades of choice" that you can choose from/ban. Kind of a "do your own faction" if you will. That way, each player can create his own variant of a race.
This would also help the balance team immensely as it would kinda work like a MOBA: any kind of obviously OP stuff would get insta-banned, but there would not be any need for emergency patching. Plus, having optionnal stuff would leave blizz free to rework unused units/upgrades in between patches (and nerfing the overused ones), which would keep the game fresher (as there could be something new to look to every season or two). It would also allow having several units that slightly overlap (imagine having the choice between having vultures, helions or both ?)
It would also add some complexity/strategy to the game, as well as requiring more adaptation and quick thinking. Less "I'll just do the same build all day e'rry day on all maps". But that's just my 2 cents. I've been thinking the same thing over the past couple of weeks. I think the future of the RTS genre (if it is to survive) is to get rid of the race-concept and instead create a pick/ban-system. You can in theory have like 40-60 different units to choose from since it would be ok if each unit would be overlapping here. I feel that just - besides making it easier to balance - also opens rooms for alot more diversity and new options. Moreover, you could create a F2P-model based on this ( since it wouldn't be dead neccesary to own all units).
I hope this will never come true, nothing is more annoying than not having full options cause it is "free to play".
The whole pick and ban phase of mobas could really be an interesting concept for a rts, but not having all units at the beginning would suck extremely.
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EPT
