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On March 13 2015 21:42 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:38 Shinta) wrote:On March 13 2015 20:36 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 20:29 Dingodile wrote:On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote:
I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money? free use/watch in all multimedia platforms should be standard from today's generation (blurred) view. On March 13 2015 20:29 contv wrote:On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote:
I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money? It's not weird. People on the internet are just cheap and/or poor. If GSL offered free subscriptions for anyone who wrote them a letter swearing their mother was dead, you can bet that they'd receive more false letters than truthful ones. On March 13 2015 20:31 blackone wrote:
It has nothing to do with the blizzard book, nerds bitch about any amount they have to pay for a digital product. People still pirate Netflix shows and music that's on Spotify. They just want free everything. So, it seems like the three of you agree with me. It's weird to demand everything for free. On March 13 2015 20:31 graNite wrote:On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote:
I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money? because all other tournaments give free hd Yes. So what? Other tournaments give free HD probably because sponsors demand it for maximum exposure or because of Blizzard. GSL on the other hand has mostly Korean sponsors that don't deliver products to western markets. Isn't it normal for them to demand a bit of money for the service they provide to you? GSL was the global standard, it was only after their lacking international features that people started to complaon, so no, what you're saying is not reasonable. Also, how is it that they are lacking so much compared to Korea? This is an ignorant opinion that I wouldn't be surprised to be criticized for, but aren't they being destroyed by a KeSPA tournament? and is that due to a lack of assistance from KeSPA? and is THAT due to their unwillingness to accept assistance? I mean, GOM was huge, and widely used in many countries before GSL... What really prevented them from continuing expanstion? Seems more like improper business management that has caused their company to be less popular not only to eSports, but to general GOM users all together. Idk about y'all, but many of my friends, including myself, used GOM to watch videos way before GSL existed. Now, none of us care for GOM. Sorry if I'm terribly ignorant. No comments on possible ignorancy, but what exactly does this have to do with the topic? I'd like to see some financial statements if you have insight in the Korean industry! Or is this just speculation?
How is this not relevant to the topic? Is the topic not about how GOM is limiting their free viewers, and thus their viewers in general?
The issue is that GOM used to be the best, now, everyone else is just as good, if not better. Why care about GOM anymore? Aside from them still having some good games per season that you might regret not seeing live...
They were great before because they were trying to rise above the rest. Now they are trying to break even. Seems like this could have been handled better, and now, trying to scrap what they can, is not well received.
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On March 13 2015 21:49 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:40 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:37 OtherWorld wrote:On March 13 2015 21:32 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:23 OtherWorld wrote:On March 13 2015 21:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 13 2015 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote:
People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd. Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry. Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free. Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get. Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign). Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair. I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^ Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons. Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship. I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for? NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards. On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote:
awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality..
isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit...
obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago
fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote:
Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality. The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument. Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money. It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly. Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table? How does NSSL and PL make money then? And ye obviously GOM can decide not to follow the industry's standard, at their own risk. If they decide to go from Low to Medium already I think that it's because their viewer numbers got affected by their decision. NSSL and PL are both more focussed on their Korean Audiences, they've got main sponsors, other sources of income, broadcasting on TV. Gom, on the other hand, pretty much only has GSL. They need to make money on GSL. Relying on charity because western kids feel entitled to free superb quality streaming is a pretty bad business model. The latter might as well be a PRthing or Blizzard stepping in. You don't know. Why don't you bring up some numbers and explanations as to why a company should invest thousands of dollars in a product and you should get it for free? You can keep on throwing questions at me for playing devils advocate, but in the end, you guys have to prove why free service is good for Gom, not the other way around. I don't think I ever said that free services were good for GOM. I even said that they could do what they want with their products, but they take the risk of getting lower viewer numbers because of people being used to free 720p, so it's their call. Additionally sure, relying on charity is not a good business model, but relying on people subscribing is hardly better. You have PL and NSSL with free 720p, which depending on weeks represent 60 to 80% of the Korean Starcraft we get each week. Do you really think that many people are going to spend money to watch the 20-40 remaining % in Source, considering that you also see Korean players in foreign tournaments with free Source? I don't know, I honestly don't know, but if they went back on their decision of having only free Low already, it's probably because the number of people who subscribed was inferior to what they were expecting. Yeah sure, NSSL and PL have their own sponsors and shit. Then why GOM doesn't have one? edit : and what ZenithM said. The fact that GOM is abandoning their free Low policy already is argument enough that this is not a reliable business model.
There is undoubtedly a reason for them to go up to Medium. It's probably income based, but none of us know, so there is no sense in discussing it.
I for one, am willing to pay for the extra 40% KR content. A lot of people with me. Maybe they should look into different ways of selling their product. For example, through the GSL app, you could purchase matches. Maybe that is a way to do it? You can purchase a day of broadcasting OR the season, so if the matches are good on a specific day, you can watch them for a small amount of money?
I don't know, some new idea is probably required. It would be awesome to come up with something as a communtity that A) incentivizes viewers to pay some money for the product, B) allows it to remain open to newcomers, C) provides incentive to Gom to co-operate with the community.
Look, the point is, there is a lot of people claiming they don't want to pay for the content but they do want to see it. Well. There's a lot of things I'd like that I have to pay for.
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On March 13 2015 21:52 Shinta) wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:42 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:38 Shinta) wrote:On March 13 2015 20:36 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 20:29 Dingodile wrote:On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote:
I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money? free use/watch in all multimedia platforms should be standard from today's generation (blurred) view. On March 13 2015 20:29 contv wrote:On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote:
I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money? It's not weird. People on the internet are just cheap and/or poor. If GSL offered free subscriptions for anyone who wrote them a letter swearing their mother was dead, you can bet that they'd receive more false letters than truthful ones. On March 13 2015 20:31 blackone wrote:
It has nothing to do with the blizzard book, nerds bitch about any amount they have to pay for a digital product. People still pirate Netflix shows and music that's on Spotify. They just want free everything. So, it seems like the three of you agree with me. It's weird to demand everything for free. On March 13 2015 20:31 graNite wrote:On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote:
I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money? because all other tournaments give free hd Yes. So what? Other tournaments give free HD probably because sponsors demand it for maximum exposure or because of Blizzard. GSL on the other hand has mostly Korean sponsors that don't deliver products to western markets. Isn't it normal for them to demand a bit of money for the service they provide to you? GSL was the global standard, it was only after their lacking international features that people started to complaon, so no, what you're saying is not reasonable. Also, how is it that they are lacking so much compared to Korea? This is an ignorant opinion that I wouldn't be surprised to be criticized for, but aren't they being destroyed by a KeSPA tournament? and is that due to a lack of assistance from KeSPA? and is THAT due to their unwillingness to accept assistance? I mean, GOM was huge, and widely used in many countries before GSL... What really prevented them from continuing expanstion? Seems more like improper business management that has caused their company to be less popular not only to eSports, but to general GOM users all together. Idk about y'all, but many of my friends, including myself, used GOM to watch videos way before GSL existed. Now, none of us care for GOM. Sorry if I'm terribly ignorant. No comments on possible ignorancy, but what exactly does this have to do with the topic? I'd like to see some financial statements if you have insight in the Korean industry! Or is this just speculation? How is this not relevant to the topic? Is the topic not about how GOM is limiting their free viewers, and thus their viewers in general? The issue is that GOM used to be the best, now, everyone else is just as good, if not better. Why care about GOM anymore? Aside from them still having some good games per season that you might regret not seeing live... They were great before because they were trying to rise above the rest. Now they are trying to break even. Seems like this could have been handled better, and now, trying to scrap what they can, is not well received.
It's normal that you lose your competitive edge as time passes. Gom is now on an even level with other tournaments. Gom offers a 2-3 month league experience in which the best of the best prepare for each other to fight at full capacity. They offer the best players. That is their current place in the market. They charge some money for that, however.
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On March 13 2015 21:51 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:45 ZenithM wrote:On March 13 2015 21:32 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:23 OtherWorld wrote:On March 13 2015 21:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 13 2015 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote:
People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd. Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry. Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free. Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get. Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign). Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair. I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^ Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons. Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship. I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for? NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards. On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote:
awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality..
isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit...
obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago
fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote:
Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality. The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument. Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money. It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly. Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table? The fact that they give in to customer demands is argument enough. They wouldn't give away Medium if it was fine for them to keep it behind pay-wall. The thing is, Low is really so fucking low that it doesn't even give you an incentive to pay for better quality. You just see blobs of pixels running around and have to guess that maybe some Starcraft is going on, paying for more is a bit of a gamble. Medium at least lets you get a taste of what's up. And you run around telling people what they pay for, but really, who's going to watch every single game if they pay the 15 bucks? When I was really into Starcraft and paying Premium subs and shit I wasn't even watching all games, nowadays I only watch the big ones, and I'm sure there are a lot of people like me. I won't pay $15 for 5 hours of content. So yeah, Medium at least, thank you very much. Is it customer demands? Is it Blizzard PR at work? Is it Gom PR? Maybe it wasn't profitable. Who knows. You don;t. I don't. Don't make claims based on that pls. [...]
I don't make claims, it's just a fact. GOM is a business, and hence, I said, "they wouldn't give away a service for free if it was fine to keep asking payment for it". It's how this shit works, I didn't even argue that they were losing money, I just said they judged it was better for them to give Medium for free, how the hell is that not true?
And I don't really care whose fault it was, they did it, so there had to be a reason. They didn't do it to be nice, that's for sure. It's because it didn't work before.
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On March 13 2015 21:51 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:45 ZenithM wrote:On March 13 2015 21:32 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:23 OtherWorld wrote:On March 13 2015 21:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 13 2015 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote:
People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd. Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry. Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free. Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get. Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign). Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair. I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^ Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons. Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship. I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for? NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards. On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote:
awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality..
isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit...
obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago
fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote:
Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality. The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument. Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money. It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly. Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table? The fact that they give in to customer demands is argument enough. They wouldn't give away Medium if it was fine for them to keep it behind pay-wall. The thing is, Low is really so fucking low that it doesn't even give you an incentive to pay for better quality. You just see blobs of pixels running around and have to guess that maybe some Starcraft is going on, paying for more is a bit of a gamble. Medium at least lets you get a taste of what's up. And you run around telling people what they pay for, but really, who's going to watch every single game if they pay the 15 bucks? When I was really into Starcraft and paying Premium subs and shit I wasn't even watching all games, nowadays I only watch the big ones, and I'm sure there are a lot of people like me. I won't pay $15 for 5 hours of content. So yeah, Medium at least, thank you very much. Is it customer demands? Is it Blizzard PR at work? Is it Gom PR? Maybe it wasn't profitable. Who knows. You don;t. I don't. Don't make claims based on that pls. And if you manage to only find 5 hours of quality content in the whole GSL season, sorry man, but the problem is in your court then. Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:47 Shinta) wrote:On March 13 2015 21:32 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:23 OtherWorld wrote:On March 13 2015 21:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 13 2015 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote:
People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd. Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry. Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free. Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get. Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign). Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair. I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^ Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons. Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship. I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for? NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards. On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote:
awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality..
isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit...
obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago
fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote:
Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality. It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. Compared to the global leading standard that it used to be, you really think it's the same innovating company that hosts the best games around? I, personally, would rather watch NSL, SPL, and WCS over GSL these days. In fact, GSL doesn't even make my VOD schedule... it's just not as entertaining of a show as it used to be. This goes way beyond the game. Then you don't like their product and shouldn't buy it. That's the way the world works. On the other hand, would you watch it if it were free? In that case, you care for their product but don't want to pay for it. Either way, they won't make money off you, so they shouldn't provide the service. Right?
That's a disgusting argument bro. Yes, their show losing entertainment value and yes, because of that they have lost my money.
So why are they providing the service? Soon enough, it seems like it will be a pathetic display of service that another company should (and with KeSPA help, may actually) take over. A company, like GOM used to be, wouldn't have much problem working with KESPA to maintain a good quality eSports tournament. At least not in MY OPINION. Cause it is my opinion.
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On March 13 2015 21:57 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:52 Shinta) wrote:On March 13 2015 21:42 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:38 Shinta) wrote:On March 13 2015 20:36 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 20:29 Dingodile wrote:On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote:
I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money? free use/watch in all multimedia platforms should be standard from today's generation (blurred) view. On March 13 2015 20:29 contv wrote:On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote:
I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money? It's not weird. People on the internet are just cheap and/or poor. If GSL offered free subscriptions for anyone who wrote them a letter swearing their mother was dead, you can bet that they'd receive more false letters than truthful ones. On March 13 2015 20:31 blackone wrote:
It has nothing to do with the blizzard book, nerds bitch about any amount they have to pay for a digital product. People still pirate Netflix shows and music that's on Spotify. They just want free everything. So, it seems like the three of you agree with me. It's weird to demand everything for free. On March 13 2015 20:31 graNite wrote:On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote:
I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money? because all other tournaments give free hd Yes. So what? Other tournaments give free HD probably because sponsors demand it for maximum exposure or because of Blizzard. GSL on the other hand has mostly Korean sponsors that don't deliver products to western markets. Isn't it normal for them to demand a bit of money for the service they provide to you? GSL was the global standard, it was only after their lacking international features that people started to complaon, so no, what you're saying is not reasonable. Also, how is it that they are lacking so much compared to Korea? This is an ignorant opinion that I wouldn't be surprised to be criticized for, but aren't they being destroyed by a KeSPA tournament? and is that due to a lack of assistance from KeSPA? and is THAT due to their unwillingness to accept assistance? I mean, GOM was huge, and widely used in many countries before GSL... What really prevented them from continuing expanstion? Seems more like improper business management that has caused their company to be less popular not only to eSports, but to general GOM users all together. Idk about y'all, but many of my friends, including myself, used GOM to watch videos way before GSL existed. Now, none of us care for GOM. Sorry if I'm terribly ignorant. No comments on possible ignorancy, but what exactly does this have to do with the topic? I'd like to see some financial statements if you have insight in the Korean industry! Or is this just speculation? How is this not relevant to the topic? Is the topic not about how GOM is limiting their free viewers, and thus their viewers in general? The issue is that GOM used to be the best, now, everyone else is just as good, if not better. Why care about GOM anymore? Aside from them still having some good games per season that you might regret not seeing live... They were great before because they were trying to rise above the rest. Now they are trying to break even. Seems like this could have been handled better, and now, trying to scrap what they can, is not well received. It's normal that you lose your competitive edge as time passes. Gom is now on an even level with other tournaments. Gom offers a 2-3 month league experience in which the best of the best prepare for each other to fight at full capacity. They offer the best players. That is their current place in the market. They charge some money for that, however.
Is it really? Do they really?... Their show does not leave me feeling that same feeling you described
Their show, being their eSports television show.
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On March 13 2015 21:55 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:49 OtherWorld wrote:On March 13 2015 21:40 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:37 OtherWorld wrote:On March 13 2015 21:32 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:23 OtherWorld wrote:On March 13 2015 21:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 13 2015 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote:
People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd. Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry. Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free. Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get. Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign). Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair. I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^ Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons. Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship. I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for? NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards. On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote:
awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality..
isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit...
obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago
fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote:
Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality. The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument. Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money. It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly. Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table? How does NSSL and PL make money then? And ye obviously GOM can decide not to follow the industry's standard, at their own risk. If they decide to go from Low to Medium already I think that it's because their viewer numbers got affected by their decision. NSSL and PL are both more focussed on their Korean Audiences, they've got main sponsors, other sources of income, broadcasting on TV. Gom, on the other hand, pretty much only has GSL. They need to make money on GSL. Relying on charity because western kids feel entitled to free superb quality streaming is a pretty bad business model. The latter might as well be a PRthing or Blizzard stepping in. You don't know. Why don't you bring up some numbers and explanations as to why a company should invest thousands of dollars in a product and you should get it for free? You can keep on throwing questions at me for playing devils advocate, but in the end, you guys have to prove why free service is good for Gom, not the other way around. I don't think I ever said that free services were good for GOM. I even said that they could do what they want with their products, but they take the risk of getting lower viewer numbers because of people being used to free 720p, so it's their call. Additionally sure, relying on charity is not a good business model, but relying on people subscribing is hardly better. You have PL and NSSL with free 720p, which depending on weeks represent 60 to 80% of the Korean Starcraft we get each week. Do you really think that many people are going to spend money to watch the 20-40 remaining % in Source, considering that you also see Korean players in foreign tournaments with free Source? I don't know, I honestly don't know, but if they went back on their decision of having only free Low already, it's probably because the number of people who subscribed was inferior to what they were expecting. Yeah sure, NSSL and PL have their own sponsors and shit. Then why GOM doesn't have one? edit : and what ZenithM said. The fact that GOM is abandoning their free Low policy already is argument enough that this is not a reliable business model. [...] Look, the point is, there is a lot of people claiming they don't want to pay for the content but they do want to see it. Well. There's a lot of things I'd like that I have to pay for.
You're saying that like that makes us bad people haha, wtf. This is an absolutely normal thing to want. I don't want to watch Starcraft badly enough that I'm willing to pay for it. Like you said, that's my problem. But when it becomes the problem of enough Starcraft watchers, it becomes GOM's problem too.
Look, as you said, we can only guess why they would give away Medium, but one thing is sure, they couldn't keep going without doing it.
Edit: sorry hadn't seen what you said:
There is undoubtedly a reason for them to go up to Medium. It's probably income based, but none of us know, so there is no sense in discussing it.
Well, there is sense discussing it if you're blaming people for sounding like cheap assholes and asking for why they wouldn't pay...
"Why wouldn't we pay?" isn't even a good question, because the answer is obvious: it doesn't look attractive enough of a bargain to us. So yeah, "why would they give us free services?" doesn't sound that much more senseless to me.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
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I think they have finally the amount of subscribers to pay tastosis monthly salaries.
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Who would have thought a year ago that we will one day rejoice for the generous gift of Medium.
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On March 13 2015 21:33 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:31 life617 wrote:
Name one league or tournament from any esport that doesnt have free high quality streams. You don't see that when you have to pay nothing for the service, you are the product? Those leagues or tournaments earn their money through western advertising, as mentioned before. Also, don't put the ball in my court. You want free, high-quality stream. You can bring up the arguments why you think you have a right to that. Oh, also, Blizzcon was subscription based before, as was Kespa Cup/Hot6Cup IIRC.
I have no arguments why I think I deserve free high quality streams. It's become a standard, nothing less will be accepted.
I am not going to argue about, I am not going to complain about. I am just not going to watch it.
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On March 13 2015 21:48 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:41 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 13 2015 21:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 13 2015 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote:
People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd. Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry. Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free. Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get. Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign). Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair. I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^ Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons. Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship. I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for? You make valid points, its true about the sponsors but I don't agree that the sponsors pay for the korean audiance. I'm pretty sure the sponsors aren't saying that they are "paying so koreans don't have to subscribe". They pay for showing ads. If you disagree than show sources that says otherwise. You misunderstand the "racism card", how is person X gets apples for free but person Y doesn't get apples for free a pure ethical arguement. I think that is a pretty straightforward logical arguement, how come John gets to watch netflix for free while Jack doesn't. Maybe John lives in the countryside of England while Jack lives in London. Is that fair that just because they live in different places one person has to pay while the others doesn't. The core here for me is the internet, you can't chop up the internet, its made to be a free web of networks. Some games you are only allowed to play in korea or japan, I think thats stupid. If internet is the medium than its global thats the way the internet works. All that has tried has failed, GSL did it, they take it back. It wasn't a logical decision from the start. We have had acccess to the korean stream all the time, this proves that. What I mean by sponsors paying for the Koreans to watch is probably somewhat different than I explained. They undoubtedly have access to the number of Korean viewers. They offer products only in Korea. They'll pay for sponsorship taking into account a large share of the viewers is not Korean and as such, will not purchase the advertised product. As such, they pay less per viewer, because of the westerners. In essence, these sponsors want to cater to Koreans, not westerners. That is where my statement of them paying for Korean viewers comes from. Now, Gom has some revenue thanks to Korean viewers. They make money on them. The Western viewers, however, don't get them any money, yet. They even cost money through Tastosis and some translating staff. Ads and Twitch cover for western audiences, but with the popularity of Adblock and the terrible ad-system on twitch (display the same loud ad 10x in a row plz), that probably is reducing more and more. As such, they want to capture some revenue from Western fans, and who can blame them? I understand HQ for free is an industry standard, but you also have to take into account that Gom is a business. They need to make money to survive. They earn money on Koreans, not westerners. That is why they use subs. Giving it for free just costs them money. They cannot rely on people subbing when they don't offer anything in return (ie. what happens if they give HQ for free) Charity is not a business model. It's and interesting topic and I'm glad you're the first to put actual thought in responses ^_^
Very true, I agree with most of your points. What I don't agree with is that GOM has costs because of the english stream. Of course they have costs, they have a couple of production staff and the casters thats it. They need to pay off 2-3 salaries and maybe like the chairs the casters sit on. Compare that to how much it costs producing the whole tournament, the rent for the studio the cost of all the production, the prize money, everything. GOMs expenses are probably to at least 95% not tied to the english stream. GOM would have GSL even if they didn't stream it in english, their main demographic is not foreigners. That means that all the money they need from the foreign scene is enough to cover the casters basically.
They still show ads to foreigners, thus they have income from ads from the 20 000 or whatever watching and they have people subscribing. I'm pretty sure the expenses they have for hiring 2 casters is covered.
They make a tournament for the korean demographic, adds english casters and charge the foreigners for it. Its just not logical it doesn't make sense. If they show the numbers and say that the casters salaries aren't covered from foreigners ads and subscriptions than sure I'll agree with you that it makes sense we pay for what we get I just think it very very unlikely. Don't charge us for something you produce for free mainly for someone else(other demographic).
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You guys can argue all you want. If you gave a unique viewer a choice between watching something in HD or something in lower quality odds are they will pick the HD. It's things like this where you hurt yourself from even getting more unique viewers interested among many other things like broadcast schedule, the fact people want things that are new and shiny, etc.
It's just one variable. Anyway, the game hasn't done much in the way in expanding it's base for a long time. You could make similar arguments for games like LoL because across the board the numbers for most games haven't exploded except for a few exceptions like HS and CS. It's just a matter of time before those stagnate as well or wait until the next chapter of each game comes out. Blah Blah Blah. Yadda yadda ya. Yeah, I'm out of here.
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On March 13 2015 21:41 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 13 2015 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote:
People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd. Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry. Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free. Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get. Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign). Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair. I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^ Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons. Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship. I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for? You make valid points, its true about the sponsors but I don't agree that the sponsors pay for the korean audiance. I'm pretty sure the sponsors aren't saying that they are "paying so koreans don't have to subscribe". They pay for showing ads. If you disagree than show sources that says otherwise. You misunderstand the "racism card", how is person X gets apples for free but person Y doesn't get apples for free a pure ethical arguement. I think that is a pretty straightforward logical arguement, how come John gets to watch netflix for free while Jack doesn't. Maybe John lives in the countryside of England while Jack lives in London. Is that fair that just because they live in different places one person has to pay while the others doesn't. The core here for me is the internet, you can't chop up the internet, its made to be a free web of networks. Some games you are only allowed to play in korea or japan, I think thats stupid. If internet is the medium than its global thats the way the internet works. All that have tried have failed, GSL did it, they take it back. It wasn't a logical decision from the start. We have had acccess to the korean stream all the time, this proves that. edit: I'm not saying its unfair for them to charge for a "product" its unfair(and illogical) for them to charge some people for that product. If a company did that in a phsyical store they would get their asses sued so hard.
Speaking of industry standards, when it comes to content creation and exploitation of the respective rights, local barriers are the norm for all the reasons Toastie listed. Just because something is free in the UK doesn't mean it will be in Germany or France. Most streaming services that provide free US content (for the US) are not available in Europe.
With regrad to ur notion of this practise being unfair or unlogical: "Free" services are still businesses. The content may be provided free for the user, the money however is earned otherwise (think sponsorship). Basically the cost for each user is paid by the sponsors. If a Korean sponsor is paying x amount of money to reach y Korean viewers (his target audience) the other viewers (English, German etc) are not covered for and the money needs to come in in some other form. This is not racism or illogical but basic business logic.
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On March 13 2015 22:14 life617 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:31 life617 wrote:
Name one league or tournament from any esport that doesnt have free high quality streams. You don't see that when you have to pay nothing for the service, you are the product? Those leagues or tournaments earn their money through western advertising, as mentioned before. Also, don't put the ball in my court. You want free, high-quality stream. You can bring up the arguments why you think you have a right to that. Oh, also, Blizzcon was subscription based before, as was Kespa Cup/Hot6Cup IIRC. I have no arguments why I think I deserve free high quality streams. It's become a standard, nothing less will be accepted. I am not going to argue about, I am not going to complain about. I am just not going to watch it.
Exactly. I don't get why we suddenly need arguments as consumers... I don't think I deserve shit, I'm just saying I'm not paying for Medium, and apparently, someone important enough agrees with me.
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On March 13 2015 22:14 life617 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:33 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:31 life617 wrote:
Name one league or tournament from any esport that doesnt have free high quality streams. You don't see that when you have to pay nothing for the service, you are the product? Those leagues or tournaments earn their money through western advertising, as mentioned before. Also, don't put the ball in my court. You want free, high-quality stream. You can bring up the arguments why you think you have a right to that. Oh, also, Blizzcon was subscription based before, as was Kespa Cup/Hot6Cup IIRC. I have no arguments why I think I deserve free high quality streams. It's become a standard, nothing less will be accepted. I am not going to argue about, I am not going to complain about. I am just not going to watch it.
Wow, then you will complain endless about this service in multimedia platforms in your entire life.
It was standard ~5 yrs ago, not today. performance/price is worse today than ~5 yrs ago. Look football prices. Bundesliga did cost 15€monthly (inclusive full PL and La Liga games), HD was free. Today: Only Bundesliga cost 25€, HD for additional €5.
I can go for more details about maxdrome (netflix as german thing) and many more. They all go for "more money and less performance" for customer. They all pull together.
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On March 13 2015 22:18 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 21:41 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 13 2015 21:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 21:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 13 2015 20:54 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote:
People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd. Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry. Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free. Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get. Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign). Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair. I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^ Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons. Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship. I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for? You make valid points, its true about the sponsors but I don't agree that the sponsors pay for the korean audiance. I'm pretty sure the sponsors aren't saying that they are "paying so koreans don't have to subscribe". They pay for showing ads. If you disagree than show sources that says otherwise. You misunderstand the "racism card", how is person X gets apples for free but person Y doesn't get apples for free a pure ethical arguement. I think that is a pretty straightforward logical arguement, how come John gets to watch netflix for free while Jack doesn't. Maybe John lives in the countryside of England while Jack lives in London. Is that fair that just because they live in different places one person has to pay while the others doesn't. The core here for me is the internet, you can't chop up the internet, its made to be a free web of networks. Some games you are only allowed to play in korea or japan, I think thats stupid. If internet is the medium than its global thats the way the internet works. All that have tried have failed, GSL did it, they take it back. It wasn't a logical decision from the start. We have had acccess to the korean stream all the time, this proves that. edit: I'm not saying its unfair for them to charge for a "product" its unfair(and illogical) for them to charge some people for that product. If a company did that in a phsyical store they would get their asses sued so hard. Speaking of industry standards, when it comes to content creation and exploitation of the respective rights, local barriers are the norm for all the reasons Toastie listed. Just because something is free in the UK doesn't mean it will be in Germany or France. Most streaming services that provide free US content (for the US) are not available in Europe. With regrad to ur notion of this practise being unfair or unlogical: "Free" services are still businesses. The content may be provided free for the user, the money however is earned otherwise (think sponsorship). Basically the cost for each user is paid by the sponsors. If a Korean sponsor is paying x amount of money to reach y Korean viewers (his target audience) the other viewers (English, German etc) are not covered for and the money needs to come in in some other form. This is not racism or illogical but basic business logic.
Name this "free" service that you could not watch through proxy or other means even though you were outside of the US.
The internet is all connected mate, one example of this is television. Sure if its aired in USA on their television channels then it is exclusive then fine. If you air it over the internet it is never private to a specific group, you can try by for example password protect it but in the end its futile its there its public. Nothing on the internet is private, not really its all public.
Its like setting up a store on the street and just letting the people living on one side of the street buy there. It doesn't make sense and its impossible to tell who lives where when they come to your store. By the way the money need to come from somewhere, they money for what? If a european sees an american series that series is already produced and getting paid for by the demographic. There is nothing to pay for, of course the people want to earn money but thats another thing alltogether.
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It's a Christmas miracle.
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On March 13 2015 23:03 lestye wrote:
It's a Christmas miracle.
on friday 13th
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EPT
