GSL Season 2 will be shown for free in Medium quality as confirmed by the GSL broadcaster today (13/3/15) during GSL rebroadcasts. This is good for those who watch GSL live and have suffered the low quality broadcast again like we did back in 2011!
In Korea, vods and streams are free.. but they region block the KR videos? And whine about production cost? It is not like it will cost them anything to NOT region block the KR vods... maybe the increased viewership can make them afford artosis?
On March 13 2015 19:40 graNite wrote: i dont get why they wouldnt make 720p free. they get enough money from sponsored ads and twitch already, why the extra subscriptions?
Production cost is huge, the point is to make the business profitable that is foremost in their minds.
werent they just talking about how it was out of their control due to some sort of technical difficulties? Either way I gave up on watching GSL. Too money hungry, I understand nothing is free... They give off a feeling of greed though, the type where they would let someone suffer just so they can stack their money higher.
On March 13 2015 19:45 life617 wrote: werent they just talking about how it was out of their control due to some sort of technical difficulties? Either way I gave up on watching GSL. Too money hungry, I understand nothing is free... They give off a feeling of greed though, the type where they would let someone suffer just so they can stack their money higher.
out of their control? lol Then it would be impossible for subscribers as well
On March 13 2015 19:40 graNite wrote: i dont get why they wouldnt make 720p free. they get enough money from sponsored ads and twitch already, why the extra subscriptions?
On March 13 2015 19:42 Jintoss wrote: Been posted before, but...
and gsl still is not under that rule.
I remember that during the WCS KR seasons Mr. Chae talked about how GSL was coming back and how Blizzard would allow them to do stuff their way, maybe betwen this was one of the stuff they asked to have? It would make sense in a way for GSL to ask Blizzard for this so then can get some extra money, I don't know its a theory
On March 13 2015 19:42 Jintoss wrote: Been posted before, but...
**Note that meeting the requirements listed above does not automatically grant you partner status — we’d like to work with you directly to ensure your event fits well into the schedule and doesn’t overlap other partner events. Exceptions to the requirements may be made under the discretion of Blizzard.
On March 13 2015 19:45 life617 wrote: werent they just talking about how it was out of their control due to some sort of technical difficulties? Either way I gave up on watching GSL. Too money hungry, I understand nothing is free... They give off a feeling of greed though, the type where they would let someone suffer just so they can stack their money higher.
out of their control? lol Then it would be impossible for subscribers as well
? Clearly they were working hard day and night to fix the technical issues because they care about their fans.
I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
Because they already earn tons of money without that? It's pure greed and should not be supported in any way
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
Because they already earn tons of money without that? It's pure greed and should not be supported in any way
You have any financial statements to back that up?
Also "they already earn money" is no reason to get stuff for free. I won't get that new apple watch even if I ask really, really nicely.
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
free use/watch in all multimedia platforms should be standard from today's generation (blurred) view.
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
It's not weird. People on the internet are just cheap and/or poor. If GSL offered free subscriptions for anyone who wrote them a letter swearing their mother was dead, you can bet that they'd receive more false letters than truthful ones.
It has nothing to do with the blizzard book, nerds bitch about any amount they have to pay for a digital product. People still pirate Netflix shows and music that's on Spotify. They just want free everything.
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
free use/watch in all multimedia platforms should be standard from today's generation (blurred) view.
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
It's not weird. People on the internet are just cheap and/or poor. If GSL offered free subscriptions for anyone who wrote them a letter swearing their mother was dead, you can bet that they'd receive more false letters than truthful ones.
On March 13 2015 20:31 blackone wrote: It has nothing to do with the blizzard book, nerds bitch about any amount they have to pay for a digital product. People still pirate Netflix shows and music that's on Spotify. They just want free everything.
So, it seems like the three of you agree with me. It's weird to demand everything for free.
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
because all other tournaments give free hd
Yes. So what?
Other tournaments give free HD probably because sponsors demand it for maximum exposure or because of Blizzard. GSL on the other hand has mostly Korean sponsors that don't deliver products to western markets. Isn't it normal for them to demand a bit of money for the service they provide to you?
On March 13 2015 19:40 graNite wrote: i dont get why they wouldnt make 720p free. they get enough money from sponsored ads and twitch already, why the extra subscriptions?
**Note that meeting the requirements listed above does not automatically grant you partner status — we’d like to work with you directly to ensure your event fits well into the schedule and doesn’t overlap other partner events. Exceptions to the requirements may be made under the discretion of Blizzard.
On March 13 2015 19:40 graNite wrote: i dont get why they wouldnt make 720p free. they get enough money from sponsored ads and twitch already, why the extra subscriptions?
I've been subscribing for over a year and I will continue to subscribe as long as GSL continues to create great content. However, I can understand that this would make some people happy. I would've loved this in 2012 when the free stream was 320x240. Now it's 720x360 which is more than double but people still complain :/ I wish people would look on the bright side. At least it's not 320x240 anymore.
People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
On March 13 2015 19:40 graNite wrote: i dont get why they wouldnt make 720p free. they get enough money from sponsored ads and twitch already, why the extra subscriptions?
How do you know this?
Redditpropaganda.
Get me those financial statements pls!
count the people in chat with subscribtions and multiply with the costs moreover, read about twitch streamers and their revenue. and then calculate a bit what they get alone from twitch.
then realize that it costs them nothing extra to have 720p for free
This is just marketing bullshit, i know excatly what will GSL do :
They will only increase the stream resolution hence the "medium quality" but meanwhile they will not change the Bitrate, they will still run under a bilinear filter, the buffer size is not gonna change, the buffering time will not change either...There's also a fuckton of other little tweaks that they will not enable.
This is gonna look like shit, i could give you 1080p and it would still look like shit if i didn't change the setting accordingly and then i could make you buy the so called "source" mode where i actually enabled some option.
On March 13 2015 19:40 graNite wrote: i dont get why they wouldnt make 720p free. they get enough money from sponsored ads and twitch already, why the extra subscriptions?
How do you know this?
Redditpropaganda.
Get me those financial statements pls!
count the people in chat with subscribtions and multiply with the costs moreover, read about twitch streamers and their revenue. and then calculate a bit what they get alone from twitch.
then realize that it costs them nothing extra to have 720p for free
Not the point, the interesting stat is how many subs have they gained and how many viewers have they lost from the change if any.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
I mean it was pretty obvious that people such as myself (angryblackwoman) who blatantly PJSalt'd "gsl" over and over that they would finally realize that the atrocities of low quality could no longer continue. rekt.
On March 13 2015 19:40 graNite wrote: i dont get why they wouldnt make 720p free. they get enough money from sponsored ads and twitch already, why the extra subscriptions?
How do you know this?
Redditpropaganda.
Get me those financial statements pls!
count the people in chat with subscribtions and multiply with the costs moreover, read about twitch streamers and their revenue. and then calculate a bit what they get alone from twitch.
then realize that it costs them nothing extra to have 720p for free
This is bullshit. The people that refuse to pay for the subscribtion are also more than likely to use adblock. You know that. Also, those people with subscribtions shouldn't have to pay because other people are cheap fucks. Also, I already mentioned this, but the fact a company is profitable is not a reason for them to give you stuff for free.
Also, you conveniently ignore the massive costs Gom has to pay for as well. There's 5 casters, 2 observers, referees, make-up staff, they need to pay utilities, have incredible computers, pay for their venue, marketing costs.
Do you understand what a business is like, because you just seem to be bullshitting your way around questions without giving your made-up answers proper thought.
On March 13 2015 20:52 shid0x wrote: This is just marketing bullshit, i know excatly what will GSL do :
They will only increase the stream resolution hence the "medium quality" but meanwhile they will not change the Bitrate, they will still run under a bilinear filter, the buffer size is not gonna change, the buffering time will not change either...There's also a fuckton of other little tweaks that they will not enable.
This is gonna look like shit, i could give you 1080p and it would still look like shit if i didn't change the setting accordingly and then i could make you buy the so called "source" mode where i actually enabled some option.
Screw ya marketing team.
This is a idiotic post and you know it. How can you complain and judge them for saying they'll give you better quality FOR FREE FFS and you are already whining on how they'll screw you over (they aren't. You feel entitled to a certain level of service and there is no single reason Gom is obliged to give you that).
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Yep no better. If they give high qual and VOD for free, they're not gonna make much dough - adds only go so far. There is therefore a cost to giving medium to high quality.
I'm paying GSL for like 2 or 3 years now, and the bang for the buck is real, though it was better before as they had the gom player. They need to make a better job at having a page like SC2casts but on the gsl, and rapidly updated. Overall still real good.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
That Korean crowd is where they get the most money from. GSL is a Korean league with Korean sponsors that operate in Korea. Advertising revenue/sponsor revenue is not going to be anywhere near as high if it's even in existence, GOM show around what? 2 ads for products and those ads are rather crappily translated versions of the Korean ones for the same product which are for hardware.
While I agree low quality was a kick in the nuts for fans, they're going back to free medium which isn't that bad. They need revenue from the foreign scene and the only way to do that is with the subscriptions because they sure as hell aren't getting enough from ads either from their in-stream ads or from twitch (chances are most people also use adblock on twitch.)
Also, before people start bringing up SpoTV and the fact they provide high quality streams. SpoTV are much larger than GOM, they're a sports network that also cover more conventional sports. They're going to have a lot more income/revenue to be able to provide a higher quality stream/free access to vods right after the matches.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Yep no better. If they give high qual and VOD for free, they're not gonna make much dough - adds only go so far. There is therefore a cost to giving medium to high quality.
I'm paying GSL for like 2 or 3 years now, and the bang for the buck is real, though it was better before as they had the gom player. They need to make a better job at having a page like SC2casts but on the gsl, and rapidly updated. Overall still real good.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
That Korean crowd is where they get the most money from. GSL is a Korean league with Korean sponsors that operate in Korea. Advertising revenue/sponsor revenue is not going to be anywhere near as high if it's even in existence, GOM show around what? 2 ads for products and those ads are rather crappily translated versions of the Korean ones for the same product which are for hardware.
While I agree low quality was a kick in the nuts for fans, they're going back to free medium which isn't that bad. They need revenue from the foreign scene and the only way to do that is with the subscriptions because they sure as hell aren't getting enough from ads either from their in-stream ads or from twitch (chances are most people also use adblock on twitch.)
Also, before people start bringing up SpoTV and the fact they provide high quality streams. SpoTV are much larger than GOM, they're a sports network that also cover more conventional sports. They're going to have a lot more income/revenue to be able to provide a higher quality stream/free access to vods right after the matches.
Exactly. Exactly!
I find it kinda sad actually, all the complaints regarding this subject and nobody who can properly defend why they should get free, high-quality service.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote: awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote: Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality.
The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument.
Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money.
It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly.
Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table?
On March 13 2015 21:31 life617 wrote: Name one league or tournament from any esport that doesnt have free high quality streams.
You don't see that when you have to pay nothing for the service, you are the product? Those leagues or tournaments earn their money through western advertising, as mentioned before.
Also, don't put the ball in my court. You want free, high-quality stream. You can bring up the arguments why you think you have a right to that.
Oh, also, Blizzcon was subscription based before, as was Kespa Cup/Hot6Cup IIRC.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote: awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote: Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality.
The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument.
Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money.
It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly.
Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table?
How does NSSL and PL make money then? And ye obviously GOM can decide not to follow the industry's standard, at their own risk. If they decide to go from Low to Medium already I think that it's because their viewer numbers got affected by their decision.
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
free use/watch in all multimedia platforms should be standard from today's generation (blurred) view.
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
It's not weird. People on the internet are just cheap and/or poor. If GSL offered free subscriptions for anyone who wrote them a letter swearing their mother was dead, you can bet that they'd receive more false letters than truthful ones.
On March 13 2015 20:31 blackone wrote: It has nothing to do with the blizzard book, nerds bitch about any amount they have to pay for a digital product. People still pirate Netflix shows and music that's on Spotify. They just want free everything.
So, it seems like the three of you agree with me. It's weird to demand everything for free.
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
because all other tournaments give free hd
Yes. So what?
Other tournaments give free HD probably because sponsors demand it for maximum exposure or because of Blizzard. GSL on the other hand has mostly Korean sponsors that don't deliver products to western markets. Isn't it normal for them to demand a bit of money for the service they provide to you?
GSL was the global standard, it was only after their lacking international features that people started to complaon, so no, what you're saying is not reasonable. Also, how is it that they are lacking so much compared to Korea? This is an ignorant opinion that I wouldn't be surprised to be criticized for, but aren't they being destroyed by a KeSPA tournament? and is that due to a lack of assistance from KeSPA? and is THAT due to their unwillingness to accept assistance? I mean, GOM was huge, and widely used in many countries before GSL... What really prevented them from continuing expanstion? Seems more like improper business management that has caused their company to be less popular not only to eSports, but to general GOM users all together. Idk about y'all, but many of my friends, including myself, used GOM to watch videos way before GSL existed. Now, none of us care for GOM. Sorry if I'm terribly ignorant.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote: awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote: Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality.
The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument.
Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money.
It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly.
Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table?
How does NSSL and PL make money then? And ye obviously GOM can decide not to follow the industry's standard, at their own risk. If they decide to go from Low to Medium already I think that it's because their viewer numbers got affected by their decision.
NSSL and PL are both more focussed on their Korean Audiences, they've got main sponsors, other sources of income, broadcasting on TV.
Gom, on the other hand, pretty much only has GSL. They need to make money on GSL. Relying on charity because western kids feel entitled to free superb quality streaming is a pretty bad business model.
The latter might as well be a PRthing or Blizzard stepping in. You don't know.
Why don't you bring up some numbers and explanations as to why a company should invest thousands of dollars in a product and you should get it for free? You can keep on throwing questions at me for playing devils advocate, but in the end, you guys have to prove why free service is good for Gom, not the other way around.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
You make valid points, its true about the sponsors but I don't agree that the sponsors pay for the korean audiance. I'm pretty sure the sponsors aren't saying that they are "paying so koreans don't have to subscribe". They pay for showing ads. If you disagree than show sources that says otherwise.
You misunderstand the "racism card", how is person X gets apples for free but person Y doesn't get apples for free a pure ethical arguement. I think that is a pretty straightforward logical arguement, how come John gets to watch netflix for free while Jack doesn't. Maybe John lives in the countryside of England while Jack lives in London. Is that fair that just because they live in different places one person has to pay while the others doesn't.
The core here for me is the internet, you can't chop up the internet, its made to be a free web of networks. Some games you are only allowed to play in korea or japan, I think thats stupid. If internet is the medium than its global thats the way the internet works. All that have tried have failed, GSL did it, they take it back. It wasn't a logical decision from the start. We have had acccess to the korean stream all the time, this proves that.
edit: I'm not saying its unfair for them to charge for a "product" its unfair(and illogical) for them to charge some people for that product. If a company did that in a phsyical store they would get their asses sued so hard.
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
free use/watch in all multimedia platforms should be standard from today's generation (blurred) view.
On March 13 2015 20:29 contv wrote:
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
It's not weird. People on the internet are just cheap and/or poor. If GSL offered free subscriptions for anyone who wrote them a letter swearing their mother was dead, you can bet that they'd receive more false letters than truthful ones.
On March 13 2015 20:31 blackone wrote: It has nothing to do with the blizzard book, nerds bitch about any amount they have to pay for a digital product. People still pirate Netflix shows and music that's on Spotify. They just want free everything.
So, it seems like the three of you agree with me. It's weird to demand everything for free.
On March 13 2015 20:31 graNite wrote:
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
because all other tournaments give free hd
Yes. So what?
Other tournaments give free HD probably because sponsors demand it for maximum exposure or because of Blizzard. GSL on the other hand has mostly Korean sponsors that don't deliver products to western markets. Isn't it normal for them to demand a bit of money for the service they provide to you?
GSL was the global standard, it was only after their lacking international features that people started to complaon, so no, what you're saying is not reasonable. Also, how is it that they are lacking so much compared to Korea? This is an ignorant opinion that I wouldn't be surprised to be criticized for, but aren't they being destroyed by a KeSPA tournament? and is that due to a lack of assistance from KeSPA? and is THAT due to their unwillingness to accept assistance? I mean, GOM was huge, and widely used in many countries before GSL... What really prevented them from continuing expanstion? Seems more like improper business management that has caused their company to be less popular not only to eSports, but to general GOM users all together. Idk about y'all, but many of my friends, including myself, used GOM to watch videos way before GSL existed. Now, none of us care for GOM. Sorry if I'm terribly ignorant.
No comments on possible ignorancy, but what exactly does this have to do with the topic? I'd like to see some financial statements if you have insight in the Korean industry! Or is this just speculation?
On March 13 2015 21:23 OtherWorld wrote: NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
WCS, IEM, HSC and DH all have sponsors that target the western audience, that's why they can provide the free 720p the sponsors provide the money knowing their ads are hitting the target audience for their product, people will look into their products and they get exposure, GOM don't have much in terms of sponsors that pay out for western audiences, if they want to make the foreign stream profitable for themselves they have to find another way to get money from their western audience.
NSSL/SPL, while yes, they have Korean sponsors, just like GOM. They also have larger Korean sponsors. SKT and Naver are huge companies in Korea, they're most likely to pay out a lot more money to SpoTV than Hot6ix do to GOM. SpoTV isn't just a gaming based network like GOM either, they're a large sports broadcasting company in general, they're basically Korean ESPN. The income they make is going to be drastically higher than GOM's meaning they can afford to run their foreign stream at a higher quality.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote: awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote: Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality.
The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument.
Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money.
It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly.
Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table?
The fact that they give in to customer demands is argument enough. They wouldn't give away Medium if it was fine for them to keep it behind pay-wall. The thing is, Low is really so fucking low that it doesn't even give you an incentive to pay for better quality. You just see blobs of pixels running around and have to guess that maybe some Starcraft is going on, paying for more is a bit of a gamble. Medium at least lets you get a taste of what's up.
And you run around telling people what they pay for, but really, who's going to watch every single game if they pay the 15 bucks? When I was really into Starcraft and paying Premium subs and shit I wasn't even watching all games, nowadays I only watch the big ones, and I'm sure there are a lot of people like me. I won't pay $15 for 5 hours of content. So yeah, Medium at least, thank you very much.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote: awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote: Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality.
It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around.
Compared to the global leading standard that it used to be, you really think it's the same innovating company that hosts the best games around? I, personally, would rather watch NSL, SPL, and WCS over GSL these days. In fact, GSL doesn't even make my VOD schedule... it's just not as entertaining of a show as it used to be. This goes way beyond the game.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
You make valid points, its true about the sponsors but I don't agree that the sponsors pay for the korean audiance. I'm pretty sure the sponsors aren't saying that they are "paying so koreans don't have to subscribe". They pay for showing ads. If you disagree than show sources that says otherwise.
You misunderstand the "racism card", how is person X gets apples for free but person Y doesn't get apples for free a pure ethical arguement. I think that is a pretty straightforward logical arguement, how come John gets to watch netflix for free while Jack doesn't. Maybe John lives in the countryside of England while Jack lives in London. Is that fair that just because they live in different places one person has to pay while the others doesn't.
The core here for me is the internet, you can't chop up the internet, its made to be a free web of networks. Some games you are only allowed to play in korea or japan, I think thats stupid. If internet is the medium than its global thats the way the internet works. All that has tried has failed, GSL did it, they take it back. It wasn't a logical decision from the start. We have had acccess to the korean stream all the time, this proves that.
What I mean by sponsors paying for the Koreans to watch is probably somewhat different than I explained. They undoubtedly have access to the number of Korean viewers. They offer products only in Korea. They'll pay for sponsorship taking into account a large share of the viewers is not Korean and as such, will not purchase the advertised product. As such, they pay less per viewer, because of the westerners. In essence, these sponsors want to cater to Koreans, not westerners. That is where my statement of them paying for Korean viewers comes from.
Now, Gom has some revenue thanks to Korean viewers. They make money on them. The Western viewers, however, don't get them any money, yet. They even cost money through Tastosis and some translating staff. Ads and Twitch cover for western audiences, but with the popularity of Adblock and the terrible ad-system on twitch (display the same loud ad 10x in a row plz), that probably is reducing more and more. As such, they want to capture some revenue from Western fans, and who can blame them?
I understand HQ for free is an industry standard, but you also have to take into account that Gom is a business. They need to make money to survive. They earn money on Koreans, not westerners. That is why they use subs. Giving it for free just costs them money. They cannot rely on people subbing when they don't offer anything in return (ie. what happens if they give HQ for free) Charity is not a business model.
It's and interesting topic and I'm glad you're the first to put actual thought in responses ^_^
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote: awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote: Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality.
The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument.
Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money.
It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly.
Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table?
How does NSSL and PL make money then? And ye obviously GOM can decide not to follow the industry's standard, at their own risk. If they decide to go from Low to Medium already I think that it's because their viewer numbers got affected by their decision.
NSSL and PL are both more focussed on their Korean Audiences, they've got main sponsors, other sources of income, broadcasting on TV.
Gom, on the other hand, pretty much only has GSL. They need to make money on GSL. Relying on charity because western kids feel entitled to free superb quality streaming is a pretty bad business model.
The latter might as well be a PRthing or Blizzard stepping in. You don't know.
Why don't you bring up some numbers and explanations as to why a company should invest thousands of dollars in a product and you should get it for free? You can keep on throwing questions at me for playing devils advocate, but in the end, you guys have to prove why free service is good for Gom, not the other way around.
I don't think I ever said that free services were good for GOM. I even said that they could do what they want with their products, but they take the risk of getting lower viewer numbers because of people being used to free 720p, so it's their call. Additionally sure, relying on charity is not a good business model, but relying on people subscribing is hardly better. You have PL and NSSL with free 720p, which depending on weeks represent 60 to 80% of the Korean Starcraft we get each week. Do you really think that many people are going to spend money to watch the 20-40 remaining % in Source, considering that you also see Korean players in foreign tournaments with free Source? I don't know, I honestly don't know, but if they went back on their decision of having only free Low already, it's probably because the number of people who subscribed was inferior to what they were expecting. Yeah sure, NSSL and PL have their own sponsors and shit. Then why GOM doesn't have one?
edit : and what ZenithM said. The fact that GOM is abandoning their free Low policy already is argument enough that this is not a reliable business model.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote: awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote: Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality.
The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument.
Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money.
It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly.
Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table?
The fact that they give in to customer demands is argument enough. They wouldn't give away Medium if it was fine for them to keep it behind pay-wall. The thing is, Low is really so fucking low that it doesn't even give you an incentive to pay for better quality. You just see blobs of pixels running around and have to guess that maybe some Starcraft is going on, paying for more is a bit of a gamble. Medium at least lets you get a taste of what's up.
And you run around telling people what they pay for, but really, who's going to watch every single game if they pay the 15 bucks? When I was really into Starcraft and paying Premium subs and shit I wasn't even watching all games, nowadays I only watch the big ones, and I'm sure there are a lot of people like me. I won't pay $15 for 5 hours of content. So yeah, Medium at least, thank you very much.
Is it customer demands? Is it Blizzard PR at work? Is it Gom PR? Maybe it wasn't profitable. Who knows. You don;t. I don't. Don't make claims based on that pls.
And if you manage to only find 5 hours of quality content in the whole GSL season, sorry man, but the problem is in your court then.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote: awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote: Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality.
It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around.
Compared to the global leading standard that it used to be, you really think it's the same innovating company that hosts the best games around? I, personally, would rather watch NSL, SPL, and WCS over GSL these days. In fact, GSL doesn't even make my VOD schedule... it's just not as entertaining of a show as it used to be. This goes way beyond the game.
Then you don't like their product and shouldn't buy it. That's the way the world works. On the other hand, would you watch it if it were free? In that case, you care for their product but don't want to pay for it. Either way, they won't make money off you, so they shouldn't provide the service. Right?
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
free use/watch in all multimedia platforms should be standard from today's generation (blurred) view.
On March 13 2015 20:29 contv wrote:
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
It's not weird. People on the internet are just cheap and/or poor. If GSL offered free subscriptions for anyone who wrote them a letter swearing their mother was dead, you can bet that they'd receive more false letters than truthful ones.
On March 13 2015 20:31 blackone wrote: It has nothing to do with the blizzard book, nerds bitch about any amount they have to pay for a digital product. People still pirate Netflix shows and music that's on Spotify. They just want free everything.
So, it seems like the three of you agree with me. It's weird to demand everything for free.
On March 13 2015 20:31 graNite wrote:
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
because all other tournaments give free hd
Yes. So what?
Other tournaments give free HD probably because sponsors demand it for maximum exposure or because of Blizzard. GSL on the other hand has mostly Korean sponsors that don't deliver products to western markets. Isn't it normal for them to demand a bit of money for the service they provide to you?
GSL was the global standard, it was only after their lacking international features that people started to complaon, so no, what you're saying is not reasonable. Also, how is it that they are lacking so much compared to Korea? This is an ignorant opinion that I wouldn't be surprised to be criticized for, but aren't they being destroyed by a KeSPA tournament? and is that due to a lack of assistance from KeSPA? and is THAT due to their unwillingness to accept assistance? I mean, GOM was huge, and widely used in many countries before GSL... What really prevented them from continuing expanstion? Seems more like improper business management that has caused their company to be less popular not only to eSports, but to general GOM users all together. Idk about y'all, but many of my friends, including myself, used GOM to watch videos way before GSL existed. Now, none of us care for GOM. Sorry if I'm terribly ignorant.
No comments on possible ignorancy, but what exactly does this have to do with the topic? I'd like to see some financial statements if you have insight in the Korean industry! Or is this just speculation?
How is this not relevant to the topic? Is the topic not about how GOM is limiting their free viewers, and thus their viewers in general? The issue is that GOM used to be the best, now, everyone else is just as good, if not better. Why care about GOM anymore? Aside from them still having some good games per season that you might regret not seeing live... They were great before because they were trying to rise above the rest. Now they are trying to break even. Seems like this could have been handled better, and now, trying to scrap what they can, is not well received.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote: awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote: Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality.
The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument.
Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money.
It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly.
Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table?
How does NSSL and PL make money then? And ye obviously GOM can decide not to follow the industry's standard, at their own risk. If they decide to go from Low to Medium already I think that it's because their viewer numbers got affected by their decision.
NSSL and PL are both more focussed on their Korean Audiences, they've got main sponsors, other sources of income, broadcasting on TV.
Gom, on the other hand, pretty much only has GSL. They need to make money on GSL. Relying on charity because western kids feel entitled to free superb quality streaming is a pretty bad business model.
The latter might as well be a PRthing or Blizzard stepping in. You don't know.
Why don't you bring up some numbers and explanations as to why a company should invest thousands of dollars in a product and you should get it for free? You can keep on throwing questions at me for playing devils advocate, but in the end, you guys have to prove why free service is good for Gom, not the other way around.
I don't think I ever said that free services were good for GOM. I even said that they could do what they want with their products, but they take the risk of getting lower viewer numbers because of people being used to free 720p, so it's their call. Additionally sure, relying on charity is not a good business model, but relying on people subscribing is hardly better. You have PL and NSSL with free 720p, which depending on weeks represent 60 to 80% of the Korean Starcraft we get each week. Do you really think that many people are going to spend money to watch the 20-40 remaining % in Source, considering that you also see Korean players in foreign tournaments with free Source? I don't know, I honestly don't know, but if they went back on their decision of having only free Low already, it's probably because the number of people who subscribed was inferior to what they were expecting. Yeah sure, NSSL and PL have their own sponsors and shit. Then why GOM doesn't have one?
edit : and what ZenithM said. The fact that GOM is abandoning their free Low policy already is argument enough that this is not a reliable business model.
There is undoubtedly a reason for them to go up to Medium. It's probably income based, but none of us know, so there is no sense in discussing it.
I for one, am willing to pay for the extra 40% KR content. A lot of people with me. Maybe they should look into different ways of selling their product. For example, through the GSL app, you could purchase matches. Maybe that is a way to do it? You can purchase a day of broadcasting OR the season, so if the matches are good on a specific day, you can watch them for a small amount of money?
I don't know, some new idea is probably required. It would be awesome to come up with something as a communtity that A) incentivizes viewers to pay some money for the product, B) allows it to remain open to newcomers, C) provides incentive to Gom to co-operate with the community.
Look, the point is, there is a lot of people claiming they don't want to pay for the content but they do want to see it. Well. There's a lot of things I'd like that I have to pay for.
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
free use/watch in all multimedia platforms should be standard from today's generation (blurred) view.
On March 13 2015 20:29 contv wrote:
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
It's not weird. People on the internet are just cheap and/or poor. If GSL offered free subscriptions for anyone who wrote them a letter swearing their mother was dead, you can bet that they'd receive more false letters than truthful ones.
On March 13 2015 20:31 blackone wrote: It has nothing to do with the blizzard book, nerds bitch about any amount they have to pay for a digital product. People still pirate Netflix shows and music that's on Spotify. They just want free everything.
So, it seems like the three of you agree with me. It's weird to demand everything for free.
On March 13 2015 20:31 graNite wrote:
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
because all other tournaments give free hd
Yes. So what?
Other tournaments give free HD probably because sponsors demand it for maximum exposure or because of Blizzard. GSL on the other hand has mostly Korean sponsors that don't deliver products to western markets. Isn't it normal for them to demand a bit of money for the service they provide to you?
GSL was the global standard, it was only after their lacking international features that people started to complaon, so no, what you're saying is not reasonable. Also, how is it that they are lacking so much compared to Korea? This is an ignorant opinion that I wouldn't be surprised to be criticized for, but aren't they being destroyed by a KeSPA tournament? and is that due to a lack of assistance from KeSPA? and is THAT due to their unwillingness to accept assistance? I mean, GOM was huge, and widely used in many countries before GSL... What really prevented them from continuing expanstion? Seems more like improper business management that has caused their company to be less popular not only to eSports, but to general GOM users all together. Idk about y'all, but many of my friends, including myself, used GOM to watch videos way before GSL existed. Now, none of us care for GOM. Sorry if I'm terribly ignorant.
No comments on possible ignorancy, but what exactly does this have to do with the topic? I'd like to see some financial statements if you have insight in the Korean industry! Or is this just speculation?
How is this not relevant to the topic? Is the topic not about how GOM is limiting their free viewers, and thus their viewers in general? The issue is that GOM used to be the best, now, everyone else is just as good, if not better. Why care about GOM anymore? Aside from them still having some good games per season that you might regret not seeing live... They were great before because they were trying to rise above the rest. Now they are trying to break even. Seems like this could have been handled better, and now, trying to scrap what they can, is not well received.
It's normal that you lose your competitive edge as time passes. Gom is now on an even level with other tournaments. Gom offers a 2-3 month league experience in which the best of the best prepare for each other to fight at full capacity. They offer the best players. That is their current place in the market. They charge some money for that, however.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote: awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote: Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality.
The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument.
Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money.
It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly.
Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table?
The fact that they give in to customer demands is argument enough. They wouldn't give away Medium if it was fine for them to keep it behind pay-wall. The thing is, Low is really so fucking low that it doesn't even give you an incentive to pay for better quality. You just see blobs of pixels running around and have to guess that maybe some Starcraft is going on, paying for more is a bit of a gamble. Medium at least lets you get a taste of what's up.
And you run around telling people what they pay for, but really, who's going to watch every single game if they pay the 15 bucks? When I was really into Starcraft and paying Premium subs and shit I wasn't even watching all games, nowadays I only watch the big ones, and I'm sure there are a lot of people like me. I won't pay $15 for 5 hours of content. So yeah, Medium at least, thank you very much.
Is it customer demands? Is it Blizzard PR at work? Is it Gom PR? Maybe it wasn't profitable. Who knows. You don;t. I don't. Don't make claims based on that pls.
[...]
I don't make claims, it's just a fact. GOM is a business, and hence, I said, "they wouldn't give away a service for free if it was fine to keep asking payment for it". It's how this shit works, I didn't even argue that they were losing money, I just said they judged it was better for them to give Medium for free, how the hell is that not true?
And I don't really care whose fault it was, they did it, so there had to be a reason. They didn't do it to be nice, that's for sure. It's because it didn't work before.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote: awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote: Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality.
The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument.
Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money.
It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly.
Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table?
The fact that they give in to customer demands is argument enough. They wouldn't give away Medium if it was fine for them to keep it behind pay-wall. The thing is, Low is really so fucking low that it doesn't even give you an incentive to pay for better quality. You just see blobs of pixels running around and have to guess that maybe some Starcraft is going on, paying for more is a bit of a gamble. Medium at least lets you get a taste of what's up.
And you run around telling people what they pay for, but really, who's going to watch every single game if they pay the 15 bucks? When I was really into Starcraft and paying Premium subs and shit I wasn't even watching all games, nowadays I only watch the big ones, and I'm sure there are a lot of people like me. I won't pay $15 for 5 hours of content. So yeah, Medium at least, thank you very much.
Is it customer demands? Is it Blizzard PR at work? Is it Gom PR? Maybe it wasn't profitable. Who knows. You don;t. I don't. Don't make claims based on that pls.
And if you manage to only find 5 hours of quality content in the whole GSL season, sorry man, but the problem is in your court then.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote: awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote: Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality.
It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around.
Compared to the global leading standard that it used to be, you really think it's the same innovating company that hosts the best games around? I, personally, would rather watch NSL, SPL, and WCS over GSL these days. In fact, GSL doesn't even make my VOD schedule... it's just not as entertaining of a show as it used to be. This goes way beyond the game.
Then you don't like their product and shouldn't buy it. That's the way the world works. On the other hand, would you watch it if it were free? In that case, you care for their product but don't want to pay for it. Either way, they won't make money off you, so they shouldn't provide the service. Right?
That's a disgusting argument bro. Yes, their show losing entertainment value and yes, because of that they have lost my money. So why are they providing the service? Soon enough, it seems like it will be a pathetic display of service that another company should (and with KeSPA help, may actually) take over. A company, like GOM used to be, wouldn't have much problem working with KESPA to maintain a good quality eSports tournament. At least not in MY OPINION. Cause it is my opinion.
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
free use/watch in all multimedia platforms should be standard from today's generation (blurred) view.
On March 13 2015 20:29 contv wrote:
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
It's not weird. People on the internet are just cheap and/or poor. If GSL offered free subscriptions for anyone who wrote them a letter swearing their mother was dead, you can bet that they'd receive more false letters than truthful ones.
On March 13 2015 20:31 blackone wrote: It has nothing to do with the blizzard book, nerds bitch about any amount they have to pay for a digital product. People still pirate Netflix shows and music that's on Spotify. They just want free everything.
So, it seems like the three of you agree with me. It's weird to demand everything for free.
On March 13 2015 20:31 graNite wrote:
On March 13 2015 20:23 SC2Toastie wrote: I'm probably missing something, but why is it weird to pay a couple of bucks for 3 months and hundreds of hours of the highest level of Starcraft 2 gameplay and production. I mean, this debate has been going on for months, but I don't see a problem. Why do people feel entitled to free 720p? I mean, it's in the Blizzard book, but GSL isn't WCSKR anymore. The cost per hour of entertainment is incredibly low, the only videogame I ever paid 60$ for that I spend more than 4x the time on than on GSL is probably Skyrim.
So, in short, could anybody explain why it is weird for a large broadcasting company to ask for a pretty small sum of money?
because all other tournaments give free hd
Yes. So what?
Other tournaments give free HD probably because sponsors demand it for maximum exposure or because of Blizzard. GSL on the other hand has mostly Korean sponsors that don't deliver products to western markets. Isn't it normal for them to demand a bit of money for the service they provide to you?
GSL was the global standard, it was only after their lacking international features that people started to complaon, so no, what you're saying is not reasonable. Also, how is it that they are lacking so much compared to Korea? This is an ignorant opinion that I wouldn't be surprised to be criticized for, but aren't they being destroyed by a KeSPA tournament? and is that due to a lack of assistance from KeSPA? and is THAT due to their unwillingness to accept assistance? I mean, GOM was huge, and widely used in many countries before GSL... What really prevented them from continuing expanstion? Seems more like improper business management that has caused their company to be less popular not only to eSports, but to general GOM users all together. Idk about y'all, but many of my friends, including myself, used GOM to watch videos way before GSL existed. Now, none of us care for GOM. Sorry if I'm terribly ignorant.
No comments on possible ignorancy, but what exactly does this have to do with the topic? I'd like to see some financial statements if you have insight in the Korean industry! Or is this just speculation?
How is this not relevant to the topic? Is the topic not about how GOM is limiting their free viewers, and thus their viewers in general? The issue is that GOM used to be the best, now, everyone else is just as good, if not better. Why care about GOM anymore? Aside from them still having some good games per season that you might regret not seeing live... They were great before because they were trying to rise above the rest. Now they are trying to break even. Seems like this could have been handled better, and now, trying to scrap what they can, is not well received.
It's normal that you lose your competitive edge as time passes. Gom is now on an even level with other tournaments. Gom offers a 2-3 month league experience in which the best of the best prepare for each other to fight at full capacity. They offer the best players. That is their current place in the market. They charge some money for that, however.
Is it really? Do they really?... Their show does not leave me feeling that same feeling you described Their show, being their eSports television show.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
NSSL, PL, WCS, IEM, HSC, DH, literally every SC2 tournament all have at least free 720p. If the industry's standard is to offer free 720p, then free 720p isn't a "high-quality service" anymore but a normal service, and then it's not about people getting a high-quality service for free, it's about GOM being (literally) years behind the standards.
On March 13 2015 21:26 SeriousLus wrote: awesome, now we get crappy quality instead of pathetic quality.. isnt there still the matter of Blizard rules? anyone remeber HuK`s bet on Desrows show??? afaik its a rule to provide free 720p streams for WCS shit... obviously the koreans dont HAVE to follow them... anyone else would have been banned or gotten a penalty 2months ago fubar as usual but i dont expect anything else from korean productions
On March 13 2015 21:28 las91 wrote: Streams can have MEDIUM quality? What is this sorcery?
Yeah still not watching, this is not the day and age of this quality stream being acceptable quality.
The rules clearly state exceptions can be made at the discretion of Blizzard. It's just that people like to leave that note out because it isn't convenient to their argument.
Still, the only thing I've read is people complaining it's an 'industry standard'. So, you feel entitled to the same service every other company offers for free. Sadly, people don't seem to realize Gom needs to make money. They make money on Korean fans through advertisements. Not on Western cheapskates.That's why they ask for (A FUCKING TINY) money.
It is a high-quality service, the games are the best around. It's just that you don't get it for free that freaks a lot of people out, apparantly.
Can anybody come up with proper arguments instead of bringing up industry standards and some out-of-context table?
How does NSSL and PL make money then? And ye obviously GOM can decide not to follow the industry's standard, at their own risk. If they decide to go from Low to Medium already I think that it's because their viewer numbers got affected by their decision.
NSSL and PL are both more focussed on their Korean Audiences, they've got main sponsors, other sources of income, broadcasting on TV.
Gom, on the other hand, pretty much only has GSL. They need to make money on GSL. Relying on charity because western kids feel entitled to free superb quality streaming is a pretty bad business model.
The latter might as well be a PRthing or Blizzard stepping in. You don't know.
Why don't you bring up some numbers and explanations as to why a company should invest thousands of dollars in a product and you should get it for free? You can keep on throwing questions at me for playing devils advocate, but in the end, you guys have to prove why free service is good for Gom, not the other way around.
I don't think I ever said that free services were good for GOM. I even said that they could do what they want with their products, but they take the risk of getting lower viewer numbers because of people being used to free 720p, so it's their call. Additionally sure, relying on charity is not a good business model, but relying on people subscribing is hardly better. You have PL and NSSL with free 720p, which depending on weeks represent 60 to 80% of the Korean Starcraft we get each week. Do you really think that many people are going to spend money to watch the 20-40 remaining % in Source, considering that you also see Korean players in foreign tournaments with free Source? I don't know, I honestly don't know, but if they went back on their decision of having only free Low already, it's probably because the number of people who subscribed was inferior to what they were expecting. Yeah sure, NSSL and PL have their own sponsors and shit. Then why GOM doesn't have one?
edit : and what ZenithM said. The fact that GOM is abandoning their free Low policy already is argument enough that this is not a reliable business model.
[...] Look, the point is, there is a lot of people claiming they don't want to pay for the content but they do want to see it. Well. There's a lot of things I'd like that I have to pay for.
You're saying that like that makes us bad people haha, wtf. This is an absolutely normal thing to want. I don't want to watch Starcraft badly enough that I'm willing to pay for it. Like you said, that's my problem. But when it becomes the problem of enough Starcraft watchers, it becomes GOM's problem too. Look, as you said, we can only guess why they would give away Medium, but one thing is sure, they couldn't keep going without doing it.
Edit: sorry hadn't seen what you said:
There is undoubtedly a reason for them to go up to Medium. It's probably income based, but none of us know, so there is no sense in discussing it.
Well, there is sense discussing it if you're blaming people for sounding like cheap assholes and asking for why they wouldn't pay... "Why wouldn't we pay?" isn't even a good question, because the answer is obvious: it doesn't look attractive enough of a bargain to us. So yeah, "why would they give us free services?" doesn't sound that much more senseless to me.
On March 13 2015 21:31 life617 wrote: Name one league or tournament from any esport that doesnt have free high quality streams.
You don't see that when you have to pay nothing for the service, you are the product? Those leagues or tournaments earn their money through western advertising, as mentioned before.
Also, don't put the ball in my court. You want free, high-quality stream. You can bring up the arguments why you think you have a right to that.
Oh, also, Blizzcon was subscription based before, as was Kespa Cup/Hot6Cup IIRC.
I have no arguments why I think I deserve free high quality streams. It's become a standard, nothing less will be accepted. I am not going to argue about, I am not going to complain about. I am just not going to watch it.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
You make valid points, its true about the sponsors but I don't agree that the sponsors pay for the korean audiance. I'm pretty sure the sponsors aren't saying that they are "paying so koreans don't have to subscribe". They pay for showing ads. If you disagree than show sources that says otherwise.
You misunderstand the "racism card", how is person X gets apples for free but person Y doesn't get apples for free a pure ethical arguement. I think that is a pretty straightforward logical arguement, how come John gets to watch netflix for free while Jack doesn't. Maybe John lives in the countryside of England while Jack lives in London. Is that fair that just because they live in different places one person has to pay while the others doesn't.
The core here for me is the internet, you can't chop up the internet, its made to be a free web of networks. Some games you are only allowed to play in korea or japan, I think thats stupid. If internet is the medium than its global thats the way the internet works. All that has tried has failed, GSL did it, they take it back. It wasn't a logical decision from the start. We have had acccess to the korean stream all the time, this proves that.
What I mean by sponsors paying for the Koreans to watch is probably somewhat different than I explained. They undoubtedly have access to the number of Korean viewers. They offer products only in Korea. They'll pay for sponsorship taking into account a large share of the viewers is not Korean and as such, will not purchase the advertised product. As such, they pay less per viewer, because of the westerners. In essence, these sponsors want to cater to Koreans, not westerners. That is where my statement of them paying for Korean viewers comes from.
Now, Gom has some revenue thanks to Korean viewers. They make money on them. The Western viewers, however, don't get them any money, yet. They even cost money through Tastosis and some translating staff. Ads and Twitch cover for western audiences, but with the popularity of Adblock and the terrible ad-system on twitch (display the same loud ad 10x in a row plz), that probably is reducing more and more. As such, they want to capture some revenue from Western fans, and who can blame them?
I understand HQ for free is an industry standard, but you also have to take into account that Gom is a business. They need to make money to survive. They earn money on Koreans, not westerners. That is why they use subs. Giving it for free just costs them money. They cannot rely on people subbing when they don't offer anything in return (ie. what happens if they give HQ for free) Charity is not a business model.
It's and interesting topic and I'm glad you're the first to put actual thought in responses ^_^
Very true, I agree with most of your points. What I don't agree with is that GOM has costs because of the english stream. Of course they have costs, they have a couple of production staff and the casters thats it. They need to pay off 2-3 salaries and maybe like the chairs the casters sit on. Compare that to how much it costs producing the whole tournament, the rent for the studio the cost of all the production, the prize money, everything. GOMs expenses are probably to at least 95% not tied to the english stream. GOM would have GSL even if they didn't stream it in english, their main demographic is not foreigners. That means that all the money they need from the foreign scene is enough to cover the casters basically.
They still show ads to foreigners, thus they have income from ads from the 20 000 or whatever watching and they have people subscribing. I'm pretty sure the expenses they have for hiring 2 casters is covered.
They make a tournament for the korean demographic, adds english casters and charge the foreigners for it. Its just not logical it doesn't make sense. If they show the numbers and say that the casters salaries aren't covered from foreigners ads and subscriptions than sure I'll agree with you that it makes sense we pay for what we get I just think it very very unlikely. Don't charge us for something you produce for free mainly for someone else(other demographic).
You guys can argue all you want. If you gave a unique viewer a choice between watching something in HD or something in lower quality odds are they will pick the HD. It's things like this where you hurt yourself from even getting more unique viewers interested among many other things like broadcast schedule, the fact people want things that are new and shiny, etc.
It's just one variable. Anyway, the game hasn't done much in the way in expanding it's base for a long time. You could make similar arguments for games like LoL because across the board the numbers for most games haven't exploded except for a few exceptions like HS and CS. It's just a matter of time before those stagnate as well or wait until the next chapter of each game comes out. Blah Blah Blah. Yadda yadda ya. Yeah, I'm out of here.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
You make valid points, its true about the sponsors but I don't agree that the sponsors pay for the korean audiance. I'm pretty sure the sponsors aren't saying that they are "paying so koreans don't have to subscribe". They pay for showing ads. If you disagree than show sources that says otherwise.
You misunderstand the "racism card", how is person X gets apples for free but person Y doesn't get apples for free a pure ethical arguement. I think that is a pretty straightforward logical arguement, how come John gets to watch netflix for free while Jack doesn't. Maybe John lives in the countryside of England while Jack lives in London. Is that fair that just because they live in different places one person has to pay while the others doesn't.
The core here for me is the internet, you can't chop up the internet, its made to be a free web of networks. Some games you are only allowed to play in korea or japan, I think thats stupid. If internet is the medium than its global thats the way the internet works. All that have tried have failed, GSL did it, they take it back. It wasn't a logical decision from the start. We have had acccess to the korean stream all the time, this proves that.
edit: I'm not saying its unfair for them to charge for a "product" its unfair(and illogical) for them to charge some people for that product. If a company did that in a phsyical store they would get their asses sued so hard.
Speaking of industry standards, when it comes to content creation and exploitation of the respective rights, local barriers are the norm for all the reasons Toastie listed. Just because something is free in the UK doesn't mean it will be in Germany or France. Most streaming services that provide free US content (for the US) are not available in Europe.
With regrad to ur notion of this practise being unfair or unlogical: "Free" services are still businesses. The content may be provided free for the user, the money however is earned otherwise (think sponsorship). Basically the cost for each user is paid by the sponsors. If a Korean sponsor is paying x amount of money to reach y Korean viewers (his target audience) the other viewers (English, German etc) are not covered for and the money needs to come in in some other form. This is not racism or illogical but basic business logic.
On March 13 2015 21:31 life617 wrote: Name one league or tournament from any esport that doesnt have free high quality streams.
You don't see that when you have to pay nothing for the service, you are the product? Those leagues or tournaments earn their money through western advertising, as mentioned before.
Also, don't put the ball in my court. You want free, high-quality stream. You can bring up the arguments why you think you have a right to that.
Oh, also, Blizzcon was subscription based before, as was Kespa Cup/Hot6Cup IIRC.
I have no arguments why I think I deserve free high quality streams. It's become a standard, nothing less will be accepted. I am not going to argue about, I am not going to complain about. I am just not going to watch it.
Exactly. I don't get why we suddenly need arguments as consumers... I don't think I deserve shit, I'm just saying I'm not paying for Medium, and apparently, someone important enough agrees with me.
On March 13 2015 21:31 life617 wrote: Name one league or tournament from any esport that doesnt have free high quality streams.
You don't see that when you have to pay nothing for the service, you are the product? Those leagues or tournaments earn their money through western advertising, as mentioned before.
Also, don't put the ball in my court. You want free, high-quality stream. You can bring up the arguments why you think you have a right to that.
Oh, also, Blizzcon was subscription based before, as was Kespa Cup/Hot6Cup IIRC.
I have no arguments why I think I deserve free high quality streams. It's become a standard, nothing less will be accepted. I am not going to argue about, I am not going to complain about. I am just not going to watch it.
Wow, then you will complain endless about this service in multimedia platforms in your entire life. It was standard ~5 yrs ago, not today. performance/price is worse today than ~5 yrs ago. Look football prices. Bundesliga did cost 15€monthly (inclusive full PL and La Liga games), HD was free. Today: Only Bundesliga cost 25€, HD for additional €5.
I can go for more details about maxdrome (netflix as german thing) and many more. They all go for "more money and less performance" for customer. They all pull together.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
You make valid points, its true about the sponsors but I don't agree that the sponsors pay for the korean audiance. I'm pretty sure the sponsors aren't saying that they are "paying so koreans don't have to subscribe". They pay for showing ads. If you disagree than show sources that says otherwise.
You misunderstand the "racism card", how is person X gets apples for free but person Y doesn't get apples for free a pure ethical arguement. I think that is a pretty straightforward logical arguement, how come John gets to watch netflix for free while Jack doesn't. Maybe John lives in the countryside of England while Jack lives in London. Is that fair that just because they live in different places one person has to pay while the others doesn't.
The core here for me is the internet, you can't chop up the internet, its made to be a free web of networks. Some games you are only allowed to play in korea or japan, I think thats stupid. If internet is the medium than its global thats the way the internet works. All that have tried have failed, GSL did it, they take it back. It wasn't a logical decision from the start. We have had acccess to the korean stream all the time, this proves that.
edit: I'm not saying its unfair for them to charge for a "product" its unfair(and illogical) for them to charge some people for that product. If a company did that in a phsyical store they would get their asses sued so hard.
Speaking of industry standards, when it comes to content creation and exploitation of the respective rights, local barriers are the norm for all the reasons Toastie listed. Just because something is free in the UK doesn't mean it will be in Germany or France. Most streaming services that provide free US content (for the US) are not available in Europe.
With regrad to ur notion of this practise being unfair or unlogical: "Free" services are still businesses. The content may be provided free for the user, the money however is earned otherwise (think sponsorship). Basically the cost for each user is paid by the sponsors. If a Korean sponsor is paying x amount of money to reach y Korean viewers (his target audience) the other viewers (English, German etc) are not covered for and the money needs to come in in some other form. This is not racism or illogical but basic business logic.
Name this "free" service that you could not watch through proxy or other means even though you were outside of the US.
The internet is all connected mate, one example of this is television. Sure if its aired in USA on their television channels then it is exclusive then fine. If you air it over the internet it is never private to a specific group, you can try by for example password protect it but in the end its futile its there its public. Nothing on the internet is private, not really its all public.
Its like setting up a store on the street and just letting the people living on one side of the street buy there. It doesn't make sense and its impossible to tell who lives where when they come to your store. By the way the money need to come from somewhere, they money for what? If a european sees an american series that series is already produced and getting paid for by the demographic. There is nothing to pay for, of course the people want to earn money but thats another thing alltogether.
On March 13 2015 21:09 SC2Toastie wrote: I find it kinda sad actually, all the complaints regarding this subject and nobody who can properly defend why they should get free, high-quality service.
The reason for providing a high-quality service is to attract viewers. I (and probably many others) will not watch "Low" or "Medium". It's not as if there are not many alternative pass-times...
Showing Medium if they really think th ey have the better league.
Unfortunately there's enough KR SC2 shown in high quality now with games that are on par with GSL's experience means that they should be offering a higher quality service because they actually have competition for viewership
Very few things that are free are free because the company providing them feels especially charitable.
Free streams are usually paid for by the advertisers. GSL advertisers being mostly Korean, they have very little to gain from advertising outside Korea.. which means that some of the revenue needed to achieve GSL's target profits needs to come from stream subscriptions.
It's common sense for anyone who knows anything about how businesses work.
Anyone claiming "they're greedy" or "they make enough money already" is either naive or talking out of their ass.
Perhaps the increase to Medium is because they feel pressure to compete with other tournaments who generally display their games in better quality. We don't have any of GSL's data and we can't make any assumptions about their motives.
On March 13 2015 23:50 DinoMight wrote: Very few things that are free are free because the company providing them feels especially charitable.
Free streams are usually paid for by the advertisers. GSL advertisers being mostly Korean, they have very little to gain from advertising outside Korea.. which means that some of the revenue needed to achieve GSL's target profits needs to come from stream subscriptions.
It's common sense for anyone who knows anything about how businesses work.
Anyone claiming "they're greedy" or "they make enough money already" is either naive or talking out of their ass.
Perhaps the increase to Medium is because they feel pressure to compete with other tournaments who generally display their games in better quality. We don't have any of GSL's data and we can't make any assumptions about their motives.
Common sense says that GSL is not managing their foreign audience best possible way. There are few options how make it better.
- Increase production quality (stream, breaktime program, other stuff) - Downsize people working there to match quality so far to increase profit margin - Cut english stream and focus Korean only - Offer outside caster/company provide english casting/production
If I would be boss there I would just cut weakest link out (revenue/profit)
For people who compare this to foreign offline tournaments: Has there been a major foreign tournament that has bothered getting Korean casters or seriously focused on Korean audiences who might be outside of the operating scope of the tournament's main sponsors? As far as I know, they don't bother trying Saying "GSL should have free HD because foreign tournaments do too" is the wrong comparison. The GSL equivalent would just be getting rid of its foreign language accommodation entirely and then just removing its region lock on HD Korean content. Would that be better than having a free foreign-language stream in medium quality?
For the people who compare this to how GOMTV used to run things: ESF is dead, GSTL is gone, and the scene has shrunk considerably since those days (in terms of the number of players and teams it can support). These are signs that the old way of running things was just not economically viable. Without seeing GOMTV's financial statements, my guess (just a guess!) is that this is not a greedy grab for profits by a hugely profitable company; NSSL offers far superior service in terms of stream quality and VOD availability, all for free, so as a pure profit move, not matching this standard is not the optimal business choice, which suggests that it's closer to a necessity than just a profit play. It's also not true that offering HD quality is "free"; it's a cost to GSL in the sense that they're giving up one more potential revenue stream, which perhaps they can't do.
I don't subscribe to GSL and probably won't, because I only have time for one league and NSSL offers the better product in terms of cost-to-content quality ratio (because it's 0!). But I don't blame GSL at all for trying to make more money, and if I had time to watch their content consistently, I'd think that what they are asking is a very reasonable price to pay as a working adult
On March 13 2015 19:38 neptunusfisk wrote: Yay medium, very nice ._.
In Korea, vods and streams are free.. but they region block the KR videos? And whine about production cost? It is not like it will cost them anything to NOT region block the KR vods... maybe the increased viewership can make them afford artosis?
Technically, we get the English vod of the first game of each set (Bo3, Bo5) etc. free on youtube right now. But for next season, if people act before March 21st, ALL the English vods will be free:
As of this writing, the channel is under 54,000 subs, so we really need to move soon as a community if we want to this happen.
On March 13 2015 19:45 Alphyr wrote: Yay! Medium! Still ugly GSL! Thanks god im French and OGaming stream in high quality!
lol im not even french and i find myself watching the OGaming stream more and more even with gsl starting to show rebroadcast i rather watch better quality and not understand a word.(which doesn't bother me i can cast it for myself if i need LOL)
It doesn't matter. The GSL has already become less relevant with the rise of the ESL and WCS America, along with ProLeague. Viewership on the GSL is down. Just look at Twitch numbers while the GSL is running, and compare to ESL on a regular day. The difference is like night and day. I can kind of understand they need to generate some revenue, but this is just driving viewers away, sabotaging their revenue stream.
On March 14 2015 00:42 Kofuku wrote: For people who compare this to foreign offline tournaments: Has there been a major foreign tournament that has bothered getting Korean casters or seriously focused on Korean audiences who might be outside of the operating scope of the tournament's main sponsors? As far as I know, they don't bother trying Saying "GSL should have free HD because foreign tournaments do too" is the wrong comparison. The GSL equivalent would just be getting rid of its foreign language accommodation entirely and then just removing its region lock on HD Korean content. Would that be better than having a free foreign-language stream in medium quality?
For the people who compare this to how GOMTV used to run things: ESF is dead, GSTL is gone, and the scene has shrunk considerably since those days (in terms of the number of players and teams it can support). These are signs that the old way of running things was just not economically viable. Without seeing GOMTV's financial statements, my guess (just a guess!) is that this is not a greedy grab for profits by a hugely profitable company; NSSL offers far superior service in terms of stream quality and VOD availability, all for free, so as a pure profit move, not matching this standard is not the optimal business choice, which suggests that it's closer to a necessity than just a profit play. It's also not true that offering HD quality is "free"; it's a cost to GSL in the sense that they're giving up one more potential revenue stream, which perhaps they can't do.
I don't subscribe to GSL and probably won't, because I only have time for one league and NSSL offers the better product in terms of cost-to-content quality ratio (because it's 0!). But I don't blame GSL at all for trying to make more money, and if I had time to watch their content consistently, I'd think that what they are asking is a very reasonable price to pay as a working adult
that's really well said, have foreign tournaments had korean casters or production consistently? does the combined WCS america/europe have it? I think GSL charging a price for the premium level streaming service and resolution is fine, you either buy a product or you don't, but it seems that there are many who just expect it to come free because "everyone else" makes their highest quality stream free or because it's (in their opinion with no tangible evidence) hurting the scene.
Better I suppose. I like being able to read supplies accurately.
Also, while other tournaments, like NSSL, have high quality and stuff, I don't think the "competition" between the them for the foreign market is strong enough for that to be a major factor. Their viewers probably aren't going down much because of NSSL. But they might lose viewership for having shit quality.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
You make valid points, its true about the sponsors but I don't agree that the sponsors pay for the korean audiance. I'm pretty sure the sponsors aren't saying that they are "paying so koreans don't have to subscribe". They pay for showing ads. If you disagree than show sources that says otherwise.
You misunderstand the "racism card", how is person X gets apples for free but person Y doesn't get apples for free a pure ethical arguement. I think that is a pretty straightforward logical arguement, how come John gets to watch netflix for free while Jack doesn't. Maybe John lives in the countryside of England while Jack lives in London. Is that fair that just because they live in different places one person has to pay while the others doesn't.
The core here for me is the internet, you can't chop up the internet, its made to be a free web of networks. Some games you are only allowed to play in korea or japan, I think thats stupid. If internet is the medium than its global thats the way the internet works. All that has tried has failed, GSL did it, they take it back. It wasn't a logical decision from the start. We have had acccess to the korean stream all the time, this proves that.
What I mean by sponsors paying for the Koreans to watch is probably somewhat different than I explained. They undoubtedly have access to the number of Korean viewers. They offer products only in Korea. They'll pay for sponsorship taking into account a large share of the viewers is not Korean and as such, will not purchase the advertised product. As such, they pay less per viewer, because of the westerners. In essence, these sponsors want to cater to Koreans, not westerners. That is where my statement of them paying for Korean viewers comes from.
Now, Gom has some revenue thanks to Korean viewers. They make money on them. The Western viewers, however, don't get them any money, yet. They even cost money through Tastosis and some translating staff. Ads and Twitch cover for western audiences, but with the popularity of Adblock and the terrible ad-system on twitch (display the same loud ad 10x in a row plz), that probably is reducing more and more. As such, they want to capture some revenue from Western fans, and who can blame them?
I understand HQ for free is an industry standard, but you also have to take into account that Gom is a business. They need to make money to survive. They earn money on Koreans, not westerners. That is why they use subs. Giving it for free just costs them money. They cannot rely on people subbing when they don't offer anything in return (ie. what happens if they give HQ for free) Charity is not a business model.
It's and interesting topic and I'm glad you're the first to put actual thought in responses ^_^
Very true, I agree with most of your points. What I don't agree with is that GOM has costs because of the english stream. Of course they have costs, they have a couple of production staff and the casters thats it. They need to pay off 2-3 salaries and maybe like the chairs the casters sit on. Compare that to how much it costs producing the whole tournament, the rent for the studio the cost of all the production, the prize money, everything. GOMs expenses are probably to at least 95% not tied to the english stream. GOM would have GSL even if they didn't stream it in english, their main demographic is not foreigners. That means that all the money they need from the foreign scene is enough to cover the casters basically.
They still show ads to foreigners, thus they have income from ads from the 20 000 or whatever watching and they have people subscribing. I'm pretty sure the expenses they have for hiring 2 casters is covered.
They make a tournament for the korean demographic, adds english casters and charge the foreigners for it. Its just not logical it doesn't make sense. If they show the numbers and say that the casters salaries aren't covered from foreigners ads and subscriptions than sure I'll agree with you that it makes sense we pay for what we get I just think it very very unlikely. Don't charge us for something you produce for free mainly for someone else(other demographic).
If I knew how many subscribers they actually have, I could honestly tell you if they were even close. That tiny expense is probably a few more thousands above what numbers you were thinking.
Yay, while other streams for premier tourneys (full of koreans too mind you) are offering free 720-1080p for free WITH free vods of similar qualities, Gom has finally caught up to 2010 and give us free 480p!
This is just kind of sad, I don't care to the point where I am not going to watch Gom because of the quality, but this isn't a terribly large thing to boast about.
On March 13 2015 21:31 life617 wrote: Name one league or tournament from any esport that doesnt have free high quality streams.
You don't see that when you have to pay nothing for the service, you are the product? Those leagues or tournaments earn their money through western advertising, as mentioned before.
Also, don't put the ball in my court. You want free, high-quality stream. You can bring up the arguments why you think you have a right to that.
Oh, also, Blizzcon was subscription based before, as was Kespa Cup/Hot6Cup IIRC.
I have no arguments why I think I deserve free high quality streams. It's become a standard, nothing less will be accepted. I am not going to argue about, I am not going to complain about. I am just not going to watch it.
Wow, then you will complain endless about this service in multimedia platforms in your entire life. It was standard ~5 yrs ago, not today. performance/price is worse today than ~5 yrs ago. Look football prices. Bundesliga did cost 15€monthly (inclusive full PL and La Liga games), HD was free. Today: Only Bundesliga cost 25€, HD for additional €5.
I can go for more details about maxdrome (netflix as german thing) and many more. They all go for "more money and less performance" for customer. They all pull together.
No dude,
I am not going to be complaining about anything. If I could afford to spend the extra money to watch the gsl I might...well probably not. Since I cannot which has been the case since day one, nothing has really changed. Twitch/Youtube are very different from paid services such as Netflix, Amazon Video, Hulu or any other video streaming service such as those. They are both built around the idea of free user created content. They give everyday people a platform to be heard/seen around the world.
Companies attempting to take advantage of these platforms for their own benefits is dirty.
The free starcraft that we get to watch isn't in 720p oh boo hoo. If thats whats keeping you from watching then you aren't the ind of fans I'd like to associate with
On March 14 2015 04:06 ilikeredheads wrote: WOW medium quality!! it's 2010 all over!! Let's celebrate!!! pops champagne bottle
GOM is still a dinosaur that doesn't want to adapt to reality. Blizzard just doesn't give a damn that there's this double standard.
Spotv is doing a way better job than GOM with proleague and SSL both in terms of production value and quality of games.
Yes because they have way more money and other games/leagues that pull in more viewers/players/whatever than GOM does. GOM started up when SC2 started up iirc, and this is there game. They tried to spread out into WoT and such but i haven't heard of anything on those leagues in a while.
Without GOM we would have had to wait ages before we got to see a Korean league for SC2 due to KESPA not jumping ship until late 2012?
On March 14 2015 04:06 ilikeredheads wrote: WOW medium quality!! it's 2010 all over!! Let's celebrate!!! pops champagne bottle
GOM is still a dinosaur that doesn't want to adapt to reality. Blizzard just doesn't give a damn that there's this double standard.
Spotv is doing a way better job than GOM with proleague and SSL both in terms of production value and quality of games.
Yes because they have way more money and other games/leagues that pull in more viewers/players/whatever than GOM does. GOM started up when SC2 started up iirc, and this is there game. They tried to spread out into WoT and such but i haven't heard of anything on those leagues in a while.
Without GOM we would have had to wait ages before we got to see a Korean league for SC2 due to KESPA not jumping ship until late 2012?
Gom does deserve praise and recognition for starting all these awesome things and sticking with SC2 during its dark times. That however, does not mean it can bury its head in sand refusing to adapt to times and be immune to competition.
On March 14 2015 04:06 ilikeredheads wrote: WOW medium quality!! it's 2010 all over!! Let's celebrate!!! pops champagne bottle
GOM is still a dinosaur that doesn't want to adapt to reality. Blizzard just doesn't give a damn that there's this double standard.
Spotv is doing a way better job than GOM with proleague and SSL both in terms of production value and quality of games.
Yes because they have way more money and other games/leagues that pull in more viewers/players/whatever than GOM does. GOM started up when SC2 started up iirc, and this is there game. They tried to spread out into WoT and such but i haven't heard of anything on those leagues in a while.
Without GOM we would have had to wait ages before we got to see a Korean league for SC2 due to KESPA not jumping ship until late 2012?
Gom does deserve praise and recognition for starting all these awesome things and sticking with SC2 during its dark times. That however, does not mean it can bury its head in sand refusing to adapt to times and be immune to competition.
I don't think they can be "immune to competition" either. The NSSL is great in terms of applying competitive pressure on GSL from our consumer perspective. GSL is clearly trying to compete, but in a way that's not popular to a lot of non-Korean viewers.
I'm curious as to how important a segment this foreign audience is to GSL, in terms of their current revenue generation. GSL is obviously not selling ads to foreigner-oriented companies, and a huge number of viewers uses adblock too. How else can they monetize foreign viewership but by charging for certain viewing privileges?
I suppose that SPOTV is at a huge operational advantage because they are an actual large sports network, their overhead costs (for the SC2 unit) are probably much lower, and they could probably even afford to run it at a loss or very low profit margin, unlike GSL which is not seriously diversified.
On March 13 2015 20:45 Shuffleblade wrote: People are not entitled to free 720p and that is not what people are saying, they are saying that this is working against the growth of SC2 and is just a cheap ass way of trying to coax people into giving them money. I wouldn't mind subbing GSL and I have before! But not this season when they fucked us over and only gave low quality for free.
Now when they stopped with that I will probably sub them just to show them what kind of decisions garners support and which doesn't. I don't mind paying for GSL but not when they treat their foriegn fans like shit while sucking up to the korean crowd.
Whining on every single forum you can find that you are angry people dare asking 15 bucks for (assuming 1 hour/series here) approx. 40+20+4+2+1 = 67 hours of Code S (excluding hype content/interview/swarm host games, it's close to double this in total broadcast time). Well... I simply don't understand that, sorry.
Medium quality is obviously good, but on the other hand, they give every first game of a series for free as well. The 'you're screwing newcomers' argument is rubbish. People that are new to the scene don't go to the highest level Korean competitive tournament without somebody pointing them that way. And even if they do, there's plenty of tournament Blizzards forces to be free.
Sad thing is, internet cheapskates would rather have a company go bankrupt than just pay a tiny amount of money for the best content they can get.
Dude, like plenty of people have said before, the highest level of starcraft 2 is what gets people into the scene. You telling me that someone starts watching Sc2 first time and gets hooked on watching Winter or whoever stream? Free watchable tournament streams are the best and most common way of getting people into the sc2 scene (with that I mean into the actual scene and not just playing the campaign).
Second and probably the biggest point, if they are about to go bankrupt maybe they should make the koreans pay for watching the medium stream as well. People wouldn't be this pissed about this if it was fair, as it is now it is unreasonable and unfair. How come asians gets their apples for free while we europeans and americans have to pay for ours, you say you can't understand "us" well I can't understand those that thinks thats logical and fair.
I haven't whined btw, I'm just saying if they are going to be racist I'm not going to pay them for it ^_^
Do you have any evidence regarding that first point? I've never seen any proof on that. Additionally, except for GSL, most tournaments are free HD due to a variety of reasons.
Koreans don't pay probably because the ads are tailored towards them. Korean advertisers will pay for korean viewers to look at their products. However - Westerners cannot get those products and won't buy them. That is why you, as a westerner, have to pay for the service in some other way. Via a subscription (and the couple of us watching the ads without adblock), for example. The difference with Intel, for example, is that they tailor towards western audiences. ESL can give you free HD because they get most of their money through sponsorship.
I still haven't seen you, or anybody for that matter, explain why you should get a high-quality service for free. That is the basic point here. Not ethics (draw the racism card!), not that you think it makes sense. We are talking about a service, delivered by a company. An now, according to some form of logic, services on the internet shouldn't be paid for?
You make valid points, its true about the sponsors but I don't agree that the sponsors pay for the korean audiance. I'm pretty sure the sponsors aren't saying that they are "paying so koreans don't have to subscribe". They pay for showing ads. If you disagree than show sources that says otherwise.
You misunderstand the "racism card", how is person X gets apples for free but person Y doesn't get apples for free a pure ethical arguement. I think that is a pretty straightforward logical arguement, how come John gets to watch netflix for free while Jack doesn't. Maybe John lives in the countryside of England while Jack lives in London. Is that fair that just because they live in different places one person has to pay while the others doesn't.
The core here for me is the internet, you can't chop up the internet, its made to be a free web of networks. Some games you are only allowed to play in korea or japan, I think thats stupid. If internet is the medium than its global thats the way the internet works. All that have tried have failed, GSL did it, they take it back. It wasn't a logical decision from the start. We have had acccess to the korean stream all the time, this proves that.
edit: I'm not saying its unfair for them to charge for a "product" its unfair(and illogical) for them to charge some people for that product. If a company did that in a phsyical store they would get their asses sued so hard.
Speaking of industry standards, when it comes to content creation and exploitation of the respective rights, local barriers are the norm for all the reasons Toastie listed. Just because something is free in the UK doesn't mean it will be in Germany or France. Most streaming services that provide free US content (for the US) are not available in Europe.
With regrad to ur notion of this practise being unfair or unlogical: "Free" services are still businesses. The content may be provided free for the user, the money however is earned otherwise (think sponsorship). Basically the cost for each user is paid by the sponsors. If a Korean sponsor is paying x amount of money to reach y Korean viewers (his target audience) the other viewers (English, German etc) are not covered for and the money needs to come in in some other form. This is not racism or illogical but basic business logic.
Name this "free" service that you could not watch through proxy or other means even though you were outside of the US.
The internet is all connected mate, one example of this is television. Sure if its aired in USA on their television channels then it is exclusive then fine. If you air it over the internet it is never private to a specific group, you can try by for example password protect it but in the end its futile its there its public. Nothing on the internet is private, not really its all public.
Its like setting up a store on the street and just letting the people living on one side of the street buy there. It doesn't make sense and its impossible to tell who lives where when they come to your store. By the way the money need to come from somewhere, they money for what? If a european sees an american series that series is already produced and getting paid for by the demographic. There is nothing to pay for, of course the people want to earn money but thats another thing alltogether.
Your notion of the internet is idealistic at best. Laws and rules apply to it as they do offline. Thus, even so you may circumvent the paywall (proxy) easily you have no right to do so. Otherwise shoplifting would be alright too.
Furthermore, as stated before, the content isn't really free. It is paid for in one way or another. This means that by circumventing the viewer restrictions, you are getting something for free that others have to pay for. And just because they already earned their money with one audience does not mean the rest of the world gets it for free. Why would that be? Do rights just expire after you break even? I am sorry but that is not the way the world works. You might wish for it to be different but it isn't. The owners decide who and who not may use their property. And your shop example isn't working at all. If I pay a shop to give free soda to all people living on the left side of the street as long as they show some document, eg electricity bills, that confirms where they live and you go there even so you live on the right side, show the vendor a fake bill (that would be your proxy usage) to receive free soda then you are not in the right but committing fraud.
Personally, I'm not able to be awake during the live stream timing for GSL.
I am more than able and willing to pay for subscriptions (as I did at GSL back with the gom vod system for over a year before they moved everything to twitch) but I will refuse to do so when I'm only concerned with the vod set-up which is absolutely awful on twitch.
Free medium quality for the live stream definitely makes things a bit more watchable for the live audience, but for people like me who work a full-time job during the day and am sleeping when this all goes down live, I still won't be any more inclined to pay for a sub when I can't even enjoy a decently satisfactory vod system.
On March 13 2015 23:50 DinoMight wrote: Very few things that are free are free because the company providing them feels especially charitable.
Free streams are usually paid for by the advertisers. GSL advertisers being mostly Korean, they have very little to gain from advertising outside Korea.. which means that some of the revenue needed to achieve GSL's target profits needs to come from stream subscriptions.
It's common sense for anyone who knows anything about how businesses work.
Anyone claiming "they're greedy" or "they make enough money already" is either naive or talking out of their ass.
Perhaps the increase to Medium is because they feel pressure to compete with other tournaments who generally display their games in better quality. We don't have any of GSL's data and we can't make any assumptions about their motives.
... so why not get some English advertisers for the English stream? The stream is entirely separate from the Korean stream.
Of course, first they will have to show that foreigners actually want to watch the GSL, which means they should improve their quality to see what their foreign stream audience could be like.
On March 13 2015 19:38 neptunusfisk wrote: Yay medium, very nice ._.
In Korea, vods and streams are free.. but they region block the KR videos? And whine about production cost? It is not like it will cost them anything to NOT region block the KR vods... maybe the increased viewership can make them afford artosis?
This is my biggest problem too, why is spotv allowed to stream Korean contents in full HD but gom isn't?
On March 13 2015 19:40 graNite wrote: i dont get why they wouldnt make 720p free. they get enough money from sponsored ads and twitch already, why the extra subscriptions?
Still a fucking joke. It's 2015 people, you really can't be paywalling higher quality options and vods anymore. There's proleague and NSSL for koreans, we're fucking good for koreans, you're not special anymore GSL.
On March 14 2015 08:44 IAmBelieve wrote: i don't think most people understand here how little suport blizzard gives, GOMTV is burning cash, they will go bankrupt soon if things don't change
If they go bankrupt, then they are clearly doing something wrong with their operations, whether it be running not efficiently or something. I had to do a case study on SkyWest for one of my courses and its competitor, Pinnacle appeared to be doing everything right according to the data provided in the case. However funny would you know, Pinnacle went bankrupt a year later while SkyWest is still around.
To get back at GOMEXP. ESL had to shut down "half" its SC2 operations because of WCS America and WCS Europe merging into WCS Foreigner. They are still able to provide free 720P streams because they still appeal to the public and am able to generate sufficient advertisement revenue because there are sufficient people watching. By forcing people to subscribe to GSL, GOMEXP forced a lot of people to stop watching their GSL and turn to pirating instead. Take a look at Starleague. They have free 720P stream, and 1080P on Azubu. Look at the LR activity on Starleague compared to GSL. Free 720P goes a long way at attracting viewers.
Let's just say that GSL and GomEXP will be gone one day because the company isn't financially solvent, or simply because it's just not worth it anymore.
All the quality haters are going to come out of the woodworks (like here and now) and cackle at how right they were and how they all predicted it.
who. the. fuck. cares.
you're missing good starcraft because you can't deal with pixelation and because you feel this company chose to mess up your entirely free experience of it through the lesser quality.
I don't know where you came from, but we're privileged to be able to see this content in english. We asked and pleaded for it as a foreign community. They decided, yes, we'll invest many resources into providing this to the rest of the world even when they can't purchase from the companies that put money in our wallets and make this all possible. So how do we even contribute to lessen the costs and make it even worth making this content for the english speaking viewers? Well fuck, guess how.
Why do you always act surprised or even negative about the things we're given when it could cease to exist at any moment? Because you think you are better at finances and managing a company's direction? Because you think the solution is so simple that with a flick of a switch, they could make everyone happy? Do you really think that they haven't thought about all this?
Rofl @ Medium. Still don't get it = confirmed. Truly amazing. It's like they are genuinely incapable of learning from the entirety of the industry they are a part of.
On March 14 2015 09:25 nanaoei wrote: Let's just say that GSL and GomEXP will be gone one day because the company isn't financially solvent, or simply because it's just not worth it anymore.
All the quality haters are going to come out of the woodworks (like here and now) and cackle at how right they were and how they all predicted it.
who. the. fuck. cares.
you're missing good starcraft because you can't deal with pixelation and because you feel this company chose to mess up your entirely free experience of it through the lesser quality.
I don't know where you came from, but we're privileged to be able to see this content in english. We asked and pleaded for it as a foreign community. They decided, yes, we'll invest many resources into providing this to the rest of the world even when they can't purchase from the companies that put money in our wallets and make this all possible. So how do we even contribute to lessen the costs and make it even worth making this content for the english speaking viewers? Well fuck, guess how.
Why do you always act surprised or even negative about the things we're given when it could cease to exist at any moment? Because you think you are better at finances and managing a company's direction? Because you think the solution is so simple that with a flick of a switch, they could make everyone happy? Do you really think that they haven't thought about all this?
On March 14 2015 08:44 IAmBelieve wrote: i don't think most people understand here how little suport blizzard gives, GOMTV is burning cash, they will go bankrupt soon if things don't change
If they go bankrupt, then they are clearly doing something wrong with their operations, whether it be running not efficiently or something. I had to do a case study on SkyWest for one of my courses and its competitor, Pinnacle appeared to be doing everything right according to the data provided in the case. However funny would you know, Pinnacle went bankrupt a year later while SkyWest is still around.
To get back at GOMEXP. ESL had to shut down "half" its SC2 operations because of WCS America and WCS Europe merging into WCS Foreigner. They are still able to provide free 720P streams because they still appeal to the public and am able to generate sufficient advertisement revenue because there are sufficient people watching. By forcing people to subscribe to GSL, GOMEXP forced a lot of people to stop watching their GSL and turn to pirating instead. Take a look at Starleague. They have free 720P stream, and 1080P on Azubu. Look at the LR activity on Starleague compared to GSL. Free 720P goes a long way at attracting viewers.
Spotv, Azubu, Kespa burn shit ton of money on SC2 as well. The difference is that they can afford to lose money doing sc2 as a whole company / organization, while having their own reasons to support sc2. It's quite unfair to compare anything they do to what Gom does.
i think they are switching to medium as they have upgraded the hardware which does not anymore support streaming any lower the medium :-D lol... i am sure there is a reason guys :-)
On March 13 2015 19:38 neptunusfisk wrote: Yay medium, very nice ._.
In Korea, vods and streams are free.. but they region block the KR videos? And whine about production cost? It is not like it will cost them anything to NOT region block the KR vods... maybe the increased viewership can make them afford artosis?
Where are the KR vods for GSL? There are plenty youtube download sites that you could circumvent the region restriction.
On March 14 2015 09:25 nanaoei wrote: Let's just say that GSL and GomEXP will be gone one day because the company isn't financially solvent, or simply because it's just not worth it anymore.
All the quality haters are going to come out of the woodworks (like here and now) and cackle at how right they were and how they all predicted it.
who. the. fuck. cares.
you're missing good starcraft because you can't deal with pixelation and because you feel this company chose to mess up your entirely free experience of it through the lesser quality.
I don't know where you came from, but we're privileged to be able to see this content in english. We asked and pleaded for it as a foreign community. They decided, yes, we'll invest many resources into providing this to the rest of the world even when they can't purchase from the companies that put money in our wallets and make this all possible. So how do we even contribute to lessen the costs and make it even worth making this content for the english speaking viewers? Well fuck, guess how.
Why do you always act surprised or even negative about the things we're given when it could cease to exist at any moment? Because you think you are better at finances and managing a company's direction? Because you think the solution is so simple that with a flick of a switch, they could make everyone happy? Do you really think that they haven't thought about all this?
The whole train of thought many people have, is that by having all these restrictions, it hurts GOM more than it gains them. If it was an established fact that what they are doing is what they need to survive, then people would not complain so much. But it just seems like a decision which will only lose them many viewers. Why pay for GSL when there are hours and hours of proleague and starleague and other leagues absolutely for free? And when you can even download GSL for free in various places?
It's not like this is such a stupid way to think. It has been proven in many scenarios that creating paywalls like that, especially when there are many free high quality alternatives available, is only detrimental. Of course I also want to watch GSL for free, but I also want it to succeed. It feels like they are going backwards currently.
Lots of people talking out of their ass and others responding in the same manner the other way around. No idea why you are trying to understand the company's policy when you don't have a financial report or anything to back your arguments.
My bottom line is that GSL is screwing up quality on purpose (low bitrate in previous/current season and now pushing medium free out of nowhere). They can't even provide a decent service to paying viewers (their VOD is a joke). From the viewer POV, I don't see how it can't be seen as cheap/terrible and doing a huge disservice to everyone, especially when any other competition -even Korean ones- has a better offer.
Well it's about time really, but we'll have to see how good this 'Medium' actually is! Hopefully us poorlings that cannot afford to sub to everything to get half decent quality will now be able to at least make out what unit is moving around and what player is blue/red for a change.
On March 13 2015 19:38 neptunusfisk wrote: Yay medium, very nice ._.
In Korea, vods and streams are free.. but they region block the KR videos? And whine about production cost? It is not like it will cost them anything to NOT region block the KR vods... maybe the increased viewership can make them afford artosis?
Where are the KR vods for GSL? There are plenty youtube download sites that you could circumvent the region restriction.
On March 13 2015 20:52 shid0x wrote: This is just marketing bullshit, i know excatly what will GSL do :
They will only increase the stream resolution hence the "medium quality" but meanwhile they will not change the Bitrate, they will still run under a bilinear filter, the buffer size is not gonna change, the buffering time will not change either...There's also a fuckton of other little tweaks that they will not enable.
This is gonna look like shit, i could give you 1080p and it would still look like shit if i didn't change the setting accordingly and then i could make you buy the so called "source" mode where i actually enabled some option.
Screw ya marketing team.
Dude, don't bother. You're throwing too many technical terms that will fall on deaf ears. It's extremely easy to trick people in the tech business. Quality of marketing is far more important than quality of the actual product. It sucks, but it's one of those several harsh truths you have to accept in life.
Although I can see the motivation (not everything is free), I don't think this was a winning strategy. They had attrition, and to a casual viewer like me, I'd rather watch a free 1080p dota stream than a 320p or 480p sc2 stream. And I don't care enough to pay. I think it's probably misguided, but it's perfectly understandable, its their content and they can do what they want with it.
On March 13 2015 19:42 Jintoss wrote: Been posted before, but...
yep its stupid that gsl isnt under that rule ... its just #stupidasfuck
I actually commented on that in twitch chat and a forum moderator point out that the stream only has 4 players 'on-site' which falls below the minimum required to fall under these rules. So, yeah.
They're experimenting with different business models. Whatever makes them strong and sustainable is okay with me. I just won't watch the low quality, and I can't subscribe to a broadcast that happens at 3am :p
On March 15 2015 03:19 HewTheTitan wrote: They're experimenting with different business models. Whatever makes them strong and sustainable is okay with me. I just won't watch the low quality, and I can't subscribe to a broadcast that happens at 3am :p
These are the two major barriers the GSL has to overcome in order to retain global viewership. Regardless of the other factors involved(Azubu etc throwing money at their tournaments), it is definitely hurting their viewership to have their stream in such low quality and paywalled VODs. At some point, people just shrug their shoulders and say 'well I can see these players in other tournaments, it's just not that important to me to watch the GSL'. And that's death for the global stream.
Actually im pretty sure they did it because the moderators and the man behind the twitch ID "gsl" begged for them to offer medium because of the HUGE amount of complaining going on in the chat.
As a moderator for the GSL twitch chat I can tell you that people are saying horrible things about GSL calling them "money-grubbing whores"," Jews" etc.
I dont understand how people think its okay to say things like this. If you go to work dont you want ot get paid for the work you do? GSL could just fire Tasteless and Artosis and do away with broadcasting in english completely if it they wanted to. So i think subscribing would help them continue producing the english content.
I don't get why people say " I would sub if they werent being greedy" that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. You WOULD sub if they werent only allowing medium qual? Then what do people who sub get? some emotes? that is stupid. Obviously they only offer medium to nonsubs, so that when you DO sub you feel like you're actually getting something for your money and not just some emote to use in twith chat! WOW LOGIC!.
Actually im pretty sure they did it because the moderators and the man behind the twitch ID "gsl" begged for them to offer medium because of the HUGE amount of complaining going on in the chat.
As a moderator for the GSL twitch chat I can tell you that people are saying horrible things about GSL calling them "money-grubbing whores"," Jews" etc.
I dont understand how people think its okay to say things like this. If you go to work dont you want ot get paid for the work you do? GSL could just fire Tasteless and Artosis and do away with broadcasting in english completely if it they wanted to. So i think subscribing would help them continue producing the english content.
I don't get why people say " I would sub if they werent being greedy" that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. You WOULD sub if they werent only allowing medium qual? Then what do people who sub get? some emotes? that is stupid. Obviously they only offer medium to nonsubs, so that when you DO sub you feel like you're actually getting something for your money and not just some emote to use in twith chat! WOW LOGIC!.
I get your point, but when reading you, it sounds like you think "Jew" is an insult and an "horrible thing" to say of someone...
Why do you always act surprised or even negative about the things we're given when it could cease to exist at any moment? Because you think you are better at finances and managing a company's direction? Because you think the solution is so simple that with a flick of a switch, they could make everyone happy? Do you really think that they haven't thought about all this?
this, and this:
On March 15 2015 03:19 HewTheTitan wrote: They're experimenting with different business models. Whatever makes them strong and sustainable is okay with me.
Actually im pretty sure they did it because the moderators and the man behind the twitch ID "gsl" begged for them to offer medium because of the HUGE amount of complaining going on in the chat.
As a moderator for the GSL twitch chat I can tell you that people are saying horrible things about GSL calling them "money-grubbing whores"," Jews" etc.
I dont understand how people think its okay to say things like this. If you go to work dont you want ot get paid for the work you do? GSL could just fire Tasteless and Artosis and do away with broadcasting in english completely if it they wanted to. So i think subscribing would help them continue producing the english content.
I don't get why people say " I would sub if they werent being greedy" that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. You WOULD sub if they werent only allowing medium qual? Then what do people who sub get? some emotes? that is stupid. Obviously they only offer medium to nonsubs, so that when you DO sub you feel like you're actually getting something for your money and not just some emote to use in twith chat! WOW LOGIC!.
I get your point, but when reading you, it sounds like you think "Jew" is an insult and an "horrible thing" to say of someone...
I don't know where you learned about right and wrong, but using the word "Jew" as an insult is actually a horrible thing to say. I can't believe that we need to explain to you that using the word "Jew" in that context is both racist to Jews and offensive to non-Jews.
I can't understand how people can chalk this off to "experimenting with different business models" when it will clearly be detrimental to GSL in the long (or not so long) run. GSL is the only stream with paywalled quality that I know of. This might get some people to sub for higher quality out of frustration, but any new viewers who are not committed to watching will just leave. About a week ago, the gsl rep in chat said something like "So, do you think if we change it back to medium, that people will stop whining?" They only want to get as many people to pay as possible without as huge of a backlash as the low has had. Maybe if they had free source like EVERY other stream, people would sub to support their quality content rather than to be able to read the numbers.
I think it's tragic that all the hard work of tastosis, the gsl production crew, and all the players is wasted and displayed in low / medium quality because gsl is trying to force people to sub. Why is the Korean stream free in Source if making it low quality would make them more money?
What the subs / gsl sympathizers have to understand here is that people are critiquing GSL because they care about it. GSL is one of the best displays of pro SC2 out there, and it could be a powerful tool for fueling interest in the game. However, at low quality, only a few diehard nerds are left reluctantly watching the stream.
Actually im pretty sure they did it because the moderators and the man behind the twitch ID "gsl" begged for them to offer medium because of the HUGE amount of complaining going on in the chat.
As a moderator for the GSL twitch chat I can tell you that people are saying horrible things about GSL calling them "money-grubbing whores"," Jews" etc.
I dont understand how people think its okay to say things like this. If you go to work dont you want ot get paid for the work you do? GSL could just fire Tasteless and Artosis and do away with broadcasting in english completely if it they wanted to. So i think subscribing would help them continue producing the english content.
I don't get why people say " I would sub if they werent being greedy" that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. You WOULD sub if they werent only allowing medium qual? Then what do people who sub get? some emotes? that is stupid. Obviously they only offer medium to nonsubs, so that when you DO sub you feel like you're actually getting something for your money and not just some emote to use in twith chat! WOW LOGIC!.
I get your point, but when reading you, it sounds like you think "Jew" is an insult and an "horrible thing" to say of someone...
I don't know where you learned about right and wrong, but using the word "Jew" as an insult is actually a horrible thing to say. I can't believe that we need to explain to you that using the word "Jew" in that context is both racist to Jews and offensive to non-Jews.
Sorry, re-read his sentence and how each word in put next to each other. If you think it's ok then you're the one that need to have stuff re-explained to him.
But anyway don't think BerkmanZ did this intentionnaly, it was obviously just poor phrasing.
Actually im pretty sure they did it because the moderators and the man behind the twitch ID "gsl" begged for them to offer medium because of the HUGE amount of complaining going on in the chat.
As a moderator for the GSL twitch chat I can tell you that people are saying horrible things about GSL calling them "money-grubbing whores"," Jews" etc.
I dont understand how people think its okay to say things like this. If you go to work dont you want ot get paid for the work you do? GSL could just fire Tasteless and Artosis and do away with broadcasting in english completely if it they wanted to. So i think subscribing would help them continue producing the english content.
I don't get why people say " I would sub if they werent being greedy" that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. You WOULD sub if they werent only allowing medium qual? Then what do people who sub get? some emotes? that is stupid. Obviously they only offer medium to nonsubs, so that when you DO sub you feel like you're actually getting something for your money and not just some emote to use in twith chat! WOW LOGIC!.
I get your point, but when reading you, it sounds like you think "Jew" is an insult and an "horrible thing" to say of someone...
I don't know where you learned about right and wrong, but using the word "Jew" as an insult is actually a horrible thing to say. I can't believe that we need to explain to you that using the word "Jew" in that context is both racist to Jews and offensive to non-Jews.
Sorry, re-read his sentence and how each word in put next to each other. If you think it's ok then you're the one that need to have stuff re-explained to him.
But anyway don't think BerkmanZ did this intentionnaly, it was obviously just poor phrasing.
Guys, calling someone a "Jew" is an insult, and people in GSL's chat say it every other comment. So, if you guys are desensitized to it then i feel bad for you. But "jew" is something nazis called us and should never be used in normal speech. I would compare the word JEW to the N word which I wont even say.
Actually im pretty sure they did it because the moderators and the man behind the twitch ID "gsl" begged for them to offer medium because of the HUGE amount of complaining going on in the chat.
As a moderator for the GSL twitch chat I can tell you that people are saying horrible things about GSL calling them "money-grubbing whores"," Jews" etc.
I dont understand how people think its okay to say things like this. If you go to work dont you want ot get paid for the work you do? GSL could just fire Tasteless and Artosis and do away with broadcasting in english completely if it they wanted to. So i think subscribing would help them continue producing the english content.
I don't get why people say " I would sub if they werent being greedy" that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. You WOULD sub if they werent only allowing medium qual? Then what do people who sub get? some emotes? that is stupid. Obviously they only offer medium to nonsubs, so that when you DO sub you feel like you're actually getting something for your money and not just some emote to use in twith chat! WOW LOGIC!.
I get your point, but when reading you, it sounds like you think "Jew" is an insult and an "horrible thing" to say of someone...
I don't know where you learned about right and wrong, but using the word "Jew" as an insult is actually a horrible thing to say. I can't believe that we need to explain to you that using the word "Jew" in that context is both racist to Jews and offensive to non-Jews.
Sorry, re-read his sentence and how each word in put next to each other. If you think it's ok then you're the one that need to have stuff re-explained to him.
But anyway don't think BerkmanZ did this intentionnaly, it was obviously just poor phrasing.
Gwava, you're missing something very obvious. Calling someone (in this case a company) a Jew for perceived stinginess can be highly offensive.
OMFG, the scariest thing just happened, I was reading this and he mentioned this chat happened during the GSL rebroadcast. I was thinkin damn I hope theres a rebroadcast of the quarterfinals, Life vs herO, since I fell asleep right before it started (i'm on the west coast). And right while I was thinkin that my phone dings, New email, 6:33am PST, "GSL just went live" rebroadcast of herO vs Life. like wtf, what are the odds?! lol anyway, I just had to share that, so random. Guess i'll buy a lottery ticket today,
Actually im pretty sure they did it because the moderators and the man behind the twitch ID "gsl" begged for them to offer medium because of the HUGE amount of complaining going on in the chat.
As a moderator for the GSL twitch chat I can tell you that people are saying horrible things about GSL calling them "money-grubbing whores"," Jews" etc.
I dont understand how people think its okay to say things like this. If you go to work dont you want ot get paid for the work you do? GSL could just fire Tasteless and Artosis and do away with broadcasting in english completely if it they wanted to. So i think subscribing would help them continue producing the english content.
I don't get why people say " I would sub if they werent being greedy" that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. You WOULD sub if they werent only allowing medium qual? Then what do people who sub get? some emotes? that is stupid. Obviously they only offer medium to nonsubs, so that when you DO sub you feel like you're actually getting something for your money and not just some emote to use in twith chat! WOW LOGIC!.
I get your point, but when reading you, it sounds like you think "Jew" is an insult and an "horrible thing" to say of someone...
I don't know where you learned about right and wrong, but using the word "Jew" as an insult is actually a horrible thing to say. I can't believe that we need to explain to you that using the word "Jew" in that context is both racist to Jews and offensive to non-Jews.
Sorry, re-read his sentence and how each word in put next to each other. If you think it's ok then you're the one that need to have stuff re-explained to him.
But anyway don't think BerkmanZ did this intentionnaly, it was obviously just poor phrasing.
Guys, calling someone a "Jew" is an insult, and people in GSL's chat say it every other comment. So, if you guys are desensitized to it then i feel bad for you. But "jew" is something nazis called us and should never be used in normal speech. I would compare the word JEW to the N word which I wont even say.
Actually im pretty sure they did it because the moderators and the man behind the twitch ID "gsl" begged for them to offer medium because of the HUGE amount of complaining going on in the chat.
As a moderator for the GSL twitch chat I can tell you that people are saying horrible things about GSL calling them "money-grubbing whores"," Jews" etc.
I dont understand how people think its okay to say things like this. If you go to work dont you want ot get paid for the work you do? GSL could just fire Tasteless and Artosis and do away with broadcasting in english completely if it they wanted to. So i think subscribing would help them continue producing the english content.
I don't get why people say " I would sub if they werent being greedy" that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. You WOULD sub if they werent only allowing medium qual? Then what do people who sub get? some emotes? that is stupid. Obviously they only offer medium to nonsubs, so that when you DO sub you feel like you're actually getting something for your money and not just some emote to use in twith chat! WOW LOGIC!.
I get your point, but when reading you, it sounds like you think "Jew" is an insult and an "horrible thing" to say of someone...
I don't know where you learned about right and wrong, but using the word "Jew" as an insult is actually a horrible thing to say. I can't believe that we need to explain to you that using the word "Jew" in that context is both racist to Jews and offensive to non-Jews.
Sorry, re-read his sentence and how each word in put next to each other. If you think it's ok then you're the one that need to have stuff re-explained to him.
But anyway don't think BerkmanZ did this intentionnaly, it was obviously just poor phrasing.
Guys, calling someone a "Jew" is an insult, and people in GSL's chat say it every other comment. So, if you guys are desensitized to it then i feel bad for you. But "jew" is something nazis called us and should never be used in normal speech. I would compare the word JEW to the N word which I wont even say.
Dafuq? Is this guy for real?
'Jew' is obviously pejorative in context - and it *is* used pejoratively - but his comment about Nazi's calling Jews, 'Jew', and that being equivalent to the historical use of 'nigger' (use / mention distinction, please) is odd.
On topic: I'll start taking the whining more seriously when it takes a form other than a veiled complaint about having to pay ('medium or rito!' in double speak is, 'what? I have to PAY?!!?'). Welcome to the rest of the world. Now hang on as I go harass Sky sports on Twitter and tell them that SPL offers a free 'high' quality stream, and so I should get the same from them.
Actually im pretty sure they did it because the moderators and the man behind the twitch ID "gsl" begged for them to offer medium because of the HUGE amount of complaining going on in the chat.
As a moderator for the GSL twitch chat I can tell you that people are saying horrible things about GSL calling them "money-grubbing whores"," Jews" etc.
I dont understand how people think its okay to say things like this. If you go to work dont you want ot get paid for the work you do? GSL could just fire Tasteless and Artosis and do away with broadcasting in english completely if it they wanted to. So i think subscribing would help them continue producing the english content.
I don't get why people say " I would sub if they werent being greedy" that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. You WOULD sub if they werent only allowing medium qual? Then what do people who sub get? some emotes? that is stupid. Obviously they only offer medium to nonsubs, so that when you DO sub you feel like you're actually getting something for your money and not just some emote to use in twith chat! WOW LOGIC!.
I get your point, but when reading you, it sounds like you think "Jew" is an insult and an "horrible thing" to say of someone...
I don't know where you learned about right and wrong, but using the word "Jew" as an insult is actually a horrible thing to say. I can't believe that we need to explain to you that using the word "Jew" in that context is both racist to Jews and offensive to non-Jews.
Sorry, re-read his sentence and how each word in put next to each other. If you think it's ok then you're the one that need to have stuff re-explained to him.
But anyway don't think BerkmanZ did this intentionnaly, it was obviously just poor phrasing.
Guys, calling someone a "Jew" is an insult, and people in GSL's chat say it every other comment. So, if you guys are desensitized to it then i feel bad for you. But "jew" is something nazis called us and should never be used in normal speech. I would compare the word JEW to the N word which I wont even say.
Dafuq? Is this guy for real?
Because categorising a particular negative behaviour as unique to one culture does is fine? Imagine the outrage if a minstrel show was aired in the US, with a white guy depicting all African Americans as having big lips and low intelligence.
Actually im pretty sure they did it because the moderators and the man behind the twitch ID "gsl" begged for them to offer medium because of the HUGE amount of complaining going on in the chat.
As a moderator for the GSL twitch chat I can tell you that people are saying horrible things about GSL calling them "money-grubbing whores"," Jews" etc.
I dont understand how people think its okay to say things like this. If you go to work dont you want ot get paid for the work you do? GSL could just fire Tasteless and Artosis and do away with broadcasting in english completely if it they wanted to. So i think subscribing would help them continue producing the english content.
I don't get why people say " I would sub if they werent being greedy" that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. You WOULD sub if they werent only allowing medium qual? Then what do people who sub get? some emotes? that is stupid. Obviously they only offer medium to nonsubs, so that when you DO sub you feel like you're actually getting something for your money and not just some emote to use in twith chat! WOW LOGIC!.
I get your point, but when reading you, it sounds like you think "Jew" is an insult and an "horrible thing" to say of someone...
I don't know where you learned about right and wrong, but using the word "Jew" as an insult is actually a horrible thing to say. I can't believe that we need to explain to you that using the word "Jew" in that context is both racist to Jews and offensive to non-Jews.
Sorry, re-read his sentence and how each word in put next to each other. If you think it's ok then you're the one that need to have stuff re-explained to him.
But anyway don't think BerkmanZ did this intentionnaly, it was obviously just poor phrasing.
Guys, calling someone a "Jew" is an insult, and people in GSL's chat say it every other comment. So, if you guys are desensitized to it then i feel bad for you. But "jew" is something nazis called us and should never be used in normal speech. I would compare the word JEW to the N word which I wont even say.
Dafuq? Is this guy for real?
Because categorising a particular negative behaviour as unique to one culture does is fine? Imagine the outrage if a minstrel show was aired in the US, with a white guy depicting all African Americans as having big lips and low intelligence.
Actually im pretty sure they did it because the moderators and the man behind the twitch ID "gsl" begged for them to offer medium because of the HUGE amount of complaining going on in the chat.
As a moderator for the GSL twitch chat I can tell you that people are saying horrible things about GSL calling them "money-grubbing whores"," Jews" etc.
I dont understand how people think its okay to say things like this. If you go to work dont you want ot get paid for the work you do? GSL could just fire Tasteless and Artosis and do away with broadcasting in english completely if it they wanted to. So i think subscribing would help them continue producing the english content.
I don't get why people say " I would sub if they werent being greedy" that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. You WOULD sub if they werent only allowing medium qual? Then what do people who sub get? some emotes? that is stupid. Obviously they only offer medium to nonsubs, so that when you DO sub you feel like you're actually getting something for your money and not just some emote to use in twith chat! WOW LOGIC!.
I get your point, but when reading you, it sounds like you think "Jew" is an insult and an "horrible thing" to say of someone...
I don't know where you learned about right and wrong, but using the word "Jew" as an insult is actually a horrible thing to say. I can't believe that we need to explain to you that using the word "Jew" in that context is both racist to Jews and offensive to non-Jews.
Sorry, re-read his sentence and how each word in put next to each other. If you think it's ok then you're the one that need to have stuff re-explained to him.
But anyway don't think BerkmanZ did this intentionnaly, it was obviously just poor phrasing.
Guys, calling someone a "Jew" is an insult, and people in GSL's chat say it every other comment. So, if you guys are desensitized to it then i feel bad for you. But "jew" is something nazis called us and should never be used in normal speech. I would compare the word JEW to the N word which I wont even say.
Dafuq? Is this guy for real?
Because categorising a particular negative behaviour as unique to one culture does is fine? Imagine the outrage if a minstrel show was aired in the US, with a white guy depicting all African Americans as having big lips and low intelligence.
Sounds like FOX News
FOX is bad, but not quite that bad. (fair and balanced, more like sc2 balance at the beginning of WoL)
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yG4yc4b.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aTtpL9F.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.gyazo.com/938c12c928a33d8240bd801ab2f09cd6.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WJJ81yo.png)
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