Dremhack Bucharest 2015 will include the most popular games of the moment: Counter Strike: Global Offensive (CS:GO), DOTA 2, League of Leagends, HearthStone, Minecraft and console games.
I have reliable sources in the scene but I dont't feel like quoting skype-logs right here.
Gonna need some sources tho
I'm sorry I don't want to post stuff that I havent asked for permission to use. Besides, I could fake a skype screenshot any day, so I don't think that would add much to credibiltity.
Upon being asked by a friend of mine, Hellspawn confimed that there will be no sc2 in Bucharest. My friend needed to know for visa reasons.
So you can take as if Hellspawn has confirmed no SC2 in Bucharest.
Losing smaller events like this is a big deal for the future of sc2. If we lose support from tournaments like this it hurts the scene for both western and korean players alike. We should hope they at least keep sc2 for winter/summer events.
Keep in mind guys that this is only related to DH Bucharest. Nothing is known at this point about the rest of DH, and I would assume that they didn't cut out one of their big titles without letting the world know.
Edited OP to clarify this, the information is ONLY about Bucharest.
http://dreamhack.fr/tournois/ ^ This for instance has sc2 above the rest as tournamenst run at the event. Don't panic.
this thread is going to be a classic SC2 fan reaction. "game is dying because of all the casuals who don't understand glorious RTS!!1/game is dying because of swarm hosts!!1"
in other words, the game's market blaming everything but itself for a business decision
Well, I guess we will always be able to say that the Starcraft franchise requires the highest skill of all competitive games. So we're like esports aristocracy and Dreamhack's full of plebeian viewers. Aye?
I've always supported SC2, and at first I didn't believe the dying thing. But lately, it's been pretty clear, that this game wont last. It's too hard, too few people play it because of that. You can't play with friends. Personally I don't believe there will be a single pro player in 5 years. I'll still be playing by then, but I am very sad, and I truly hope I am wrong...
I don't understand how Hearthstone and Minecraft is better than SC2 in the esports scene. One is a card game like Yu-Gi-Oh, and the other is... Well I never played Minecraft.
On March 09 2015 23:51 boxerfred wrote: Well, I guess we will always be able to say that the Starcraft franchise requires the highest skill of all competitive games. So we're like esports aristocracy and Dreamhack's full of plebeian viewers. Aye?
I guess that Sir Polt of Terran approves of this notion.
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
Because theres 0 other reasons to watch it anymore, Personally i used tow atch the sc2 + check out other games inbetween but with no sc2 theres no reason to tune in anymore.
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
because dreamhack is responsible for whether sc2 is profitable/popular, every event should be carrying sc2 as a passion project while the "real fans" sit at home and watch it for free
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
so you're saying people are dumb and irrational about their favorite game no longer in LAN circuit?
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
so you're saying people are dumb and irrational about their favorite game no longer in LAN circuit?
people are dumb and irrational about hating Dreamhack because one of their events dropped SC2
On March 10 2015 00:08 Matte3D wrote: Casual games that is played competitive. Just don't get it??
A game's competitiveness is irrelevant. If there are people who enjoy competing and a ton of people who enjoy watching people compete, for better or for worse that's all that matters.
I'm not worried that SC2 isn't featured in DH Bucharest, I'm just wondering how the hell Minecraft made that list. What kind of competition is there for that game?
We keep assuming much more than is necessarily the case. Not to mention, of course, the commitment to esports that's been made by GFinity, helmed by the person we credit as the protector of SC2 at DH in the past. IEM had a stop this year that was League-only. I think we can afford DH having the same one-stop break.
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
so you're saying people are dumb and irrational about their favorite game no longer in LAN circuit?
Basically yes, because (most) people here are reacting as if DH was dropping SC2 definitely, while it is only for one event. Which is major difference ; I even feel that this is only logical considering that they added a new SC2 event in DH:France this year. So basically people are not complaining that DH is cutting down on SC2, they're complaining about DH maintaining the same level of involvement (since, you know, x(DH events last years)+1(DH:France)-1(DH:Bucharest) = x). Which I would describe as a dumb and irrational reaction.
On March 10 2015 00:08 Matte3D wrote: Casual games that is played competitive. Just don't get it??
A game's competitiveness is irrelevant. If there are people who enjoy competing and a ton of people who enjoy watching people compete, for better or for worse that's all that matters.
rts player logic. everything is about how "good" or "tryhard" you are. win a game on ladder? fuck you, you're diamond, you suck! you had fun? well too bad, you fucking SUCK!
lol
e: to be clear im not trying to trash sc2 or its community, just shaking my head at the attitude of most sc2 fans i tend to see
On March 10 2015 00:14 scarstream wrote: I'm not worried that SC2 isn't featured in DH Bucharest, I'm just wondering how the hell Minecraft made that list. What kind of competition is there for that game?
It is a sandbox game, you can define the rules for a competitive match almost without any constraints.
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
You kind of forgot that pitchforks were getting rusty and we like pitchforking things.
i have my pitchfork and my torch (and my axe) Could you tell me the direction of DH good sir ? Yes ? Okay i understand. I follow the bandwagon and i will arrive. Thank you kind sir. *Man that guy was strange. His head was all squary. Nevermind ! WAIT GUYS ! I HAVE PITCHFORK TOO !*
On March 09 2015 23:48 insitelol wrote: I don't care that much tbh. Sc2 is all about korea
It doesn't have to be though, it's a much more interesting scene when it's international
but its just natural. There is a tendency - sc2 is slowly and steadily loosing popularity in the foreign world while gaining in it in korea. It's sad but our praised WEST is all about shiny things. But when it comes to hardcore its all over. So let it be that way. I guess it's even better than seeing 1/4 filled stadium during DH.
On March 10 2015 00:23 sAsImre wrote: Ohlen fired + Minecraft rofl. nice combo to prove his point
Yeah, I guess the creation of DH:France with SC2 as the main game proves his point too?^^
it was in the books before he was fired. Bucharest has been a good event over years and a staple of the DH SC2 Open, and they dropped it for freaking minecraft...
On March 10 2015 00:08 Matte3D wrote: Casual games that is played competitive. Just don't get it??
The same thing with World of Tanks :D
World of Tanks is a pvp team game, seems like a good "e-sports" material for me
The slowest competitive game I've ever seen, back in 2012 a local WCG I was watching 8 static pictures on players monitors. Probably would be fun if u're slow in terms of mechanics and decisions. But still WOT has the lowest viewer nubmers amoung of the rest esport games.
On March 10 2015 00:23 sAsImre wrote: Ohlen fired + Minecraft rofl. nice combo to prove his point
Yeah, I guess the creation of DH:France with SC2 as the main game proves his point too?^^
it was in the books before he was fired. Bucharest has been a good event over years and a staple of the DH SC2 Open, and they dropped it for freaking minecraft...
Well yeah but for now, DH's involvement in SC2 is the same as before, not less important. Besides, DH is a company that needs money, if they incorporate Minecraft is probably not for shit and giggles.
On March 10 2015 00:23 sAsImre wrote: Ohlen fired + Minecraft rofl. nice combo to prove his point
Yeah, I guess the creation of DH:France with SC2 as the main game proves his point too?^^
it was in the books before he was fired. Bucharest has been a good event over years and a staple of the DH SC2 Open, and they dropped it for freaking minecraft...
Well yeah but for now, DH's involvement in SC2 is the same as before, not less important. Besides, DH is a company that needs money, if they incorporate Minecraft is probably not for shit and giggles.
I know that shitty stuff makes money you just have to look at the top song charts most of the time...
On March 10 2015 00:23 sAsImre wrote: Ohlen fired + Minecraft rofl. nice combo to prove his point
Yeah, I guess the creation of DH:France with SC2 as the main game proves his point too?^^
it was in the books before he was fired. Bucharest has been a good event over years and a staple of the DH SC2 Open, and they dropped it for freaking minecraft...
Well yeah but for now, DH's involvement in SC2 is the same as before, not less important. Besides, DH is a company that needs money, if they incorporate Minecraft is probably not for shit and giggles.
I know that shitty stuff makes money you just have to look at the top song charts most of the time...
You seem pretty disregarding of Minecraft tbh. I don't know much about it, but if there are tournaments then there are probably legit communities and competitions, and then I fail to see how is Minecraft some "shitty stuff" while SC2 is not.
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
intelligent people? hahahahahahahahahahaha
These decisions are always done by GREEDY people, intelligent hahahahahaha
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
intelligent people? hahahahahahahahahahaha
These decisions are always done by GREEDY people, intelligent hahahahahaha
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
intelligent people? hahahahahahahahahahaha
These decisions are always done by GREEDY people, intelligent hahahahahaha
Well, in business "intelligent" and "greedy" have pretty much the same meaning, y'know. What I meant by "intelligent" was "not driven by blind passion".
Dremhack Bucharest 2015 will include the most popular games of the moment: Counter Strike: Global Offensive (CS:GO), DOTA 2, League of Leagends, HearthStone, Minecraft and console games.
Seems like that they highlighted "most popular games" as excuse for the lack of sc2.
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
intelligent people? hahahahahahahahahahaha
These decisions are always done by GREEDY people, intelligent hahahahahaha
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
intelligent people? hahahahahahahahahahaha
These decisions are always done by GREEDY people, intelligent hahahahahaha
Well, in business "intelligent" and "greedy" have pretty much the same meaning, y'know. What I meant by "intelligent" was "not driven by blind passion".
makes much more sense Except the intelligent = greedy ^^
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
intelligent people? hahahahahahahahahahaha
These decisions are always done by GREEDY people, intelligent hahahahahaha
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
intelligent people? hahahahahahahahahahaha
These decisions are always done by GREEDY people, intelligent hahahahahaha
Well, in business "intelligent" and "greedy" have pretty much the same meaning, y'know. What I meant by "intelligent" was "not driven by blind passion".
makes much more sense Except the intelligent = greedy ^^
so they're losing money by featuring Minecraft instead of SC2 in one of the events?
On March 10 2015 00:43 boxerfred wrote: Hearthstone is so RNG, I still don't know why people like this. bunch'o'nerds.
RNG is really exciting for the public (omg is he gonna kill him with this card with a random effect for a 50k$ victory???), it makes for tense moments and from the pov of a spectator it's definitely good.
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
intelligent people? hahahahahahahahahahaha
These decisions are always done by GREEDY people, intelligent hahahahahaha
so they're intelligent enough to make money
seems legit to me
if you really think that then you are lost...
On March 10 2015 00:39 OtherWorld wrote:
On March 10 2015 00:37 sharkie wrote:
On March 10 2015 00:05 OtherWorld wrote:
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
intelligent people? hahahahahahahahahahaha
These decisions are always done by GREEDY people, intelligent hahahahahaha
Well, in business "intelligent" and "greedy" have pretty much the same meaning, y'know. What I meant by "intelligent" was "not driven by blind passion".
makes much more sense Except the intelligent = greedy ^^
so they're losing money by featuring Minecraft instead of SC2 in one of the events?
They might, they might not. No one can say that in advance. Only one thing certain, the people who decided that get money for this decision yes. But it has nothing to do with intelligence. Except you think getting bribed = intelligent?
On March 10 2015 00:43 boxerfred wrote: Hearthstone is so RNG, I still don't know why people like this. bunch'o'nerds.
People like things they themselves play, and those things will become more popular naturally as more people play them even if there are humongous flaws
On March 10 2015 00:43 boxerfred wrote: Hearthstone is so RNG, I still don't know why people like this. bunch'o'nerds.
RNG is really exciting for the public (omg is he gonna kill him with this card with a random effect for a 50k$ victory???), it makes for tense moments and from the pov of a spectator it's definitely good.
Yeah, just look at the excitement of casters when a widow mine is about to detonate in a mineral line. For some reason humans like randomness.
Wait wait wait, what the hell is Minecraft doing at Dreamhack?
I'm more upset about that than the lack of SC2!
How would you cast Minecraft?
Aaaaand here comes fnatic.Minem4ster, down the main... plateau. He's got his pick out! Is he gonna do it? YES! HE HACKS A ROCK! AND THEN HE PUTS IT ON SOMETHING!
The crowd is on the edge of their seats ladies and gentlemen, he might... HE'S BUILDING A LITTLE HOUSE! WE'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT BEFORE!
its only 1 tournament guys lets relax.. maybe dh wants to explore and try new things for more peopel and get more viewers theyre not specifically for sc.. if it keeps happening than yes.. i will boycott dh
I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
Honestly, I understand them. Big tournaments are just basically all about "which koreans did we manage to invite today, and will a foreigner break into top 8 this time or not?"
If there's more local interest in other game (interest by people actually attending, as well as watching online) then they should cater to them.
well, if I was a dreamhack executive and had to choose between holding a tourney for a game that gives me lets say $5000 profit or a game that gives me $20000 profit I would choose the $20000 everytime. its probably a pure business decision that in some way relates to money. cant blame them really
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
I agree with you for once (not on the GOM thing though). People are complaining that DH is keeping its involvement in SC2 at the same level. That's just beyond absurdity.
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
so it's your other crusade after the fact we should continue to support a scene that managed to get 2 koreans and 1 canadian playing in Europe through the ro32?
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
You think other communities would react any other way in the situation sc2 is in ? It's not the SC2 community, it's human people. Just look at social politics or anything in life, if you take away something they had before, people will complain.
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
You think other communities would react any other way in the situation sc2 is in ? It's not the SC2 community, it's human people. Just look at social politics or anything in life, if you take away something they had before, people will complain.
Well even if it's human nature it's not a reason to react stupidly without thinking. DH is not taking anything away from us, or more precisely they are, but gave something to balance it out.
On March 10 2015 00:50 trada wrote: well, if I was a dreamhack executive and had to choose between holding a tourney for a game that gives me lets say $5000 profit or a game that gives me $20000 profit I would choose the $20000 everytime. its probably a pure business decision that in some way relates to money. cant blame them really
The smarter business man figures out how to get both working and make $25000 though
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
You think other communities would react any other way in the situation sc2 is in ? It's not the SC2 community, it's human people. Just look at social politics or anything in life, if you take away something they had before, people will complain.
actually if you give stuff to other people, some are going to complain too.
There is still more sc2 going on than I can watch, so I'm not too sad. I still hope we'll see sc2 at other DHs. Although DH did not improve anything in years and has fallen behind IEM, I still enjoy the events a lot.
SC2 staff is killing the game for a long time. The last exemple relies on the latest ladder changes that were made and affected nothing, made by Mr. Psione and his staff.
Blizzard will have to make their best not to kill SC2 with the releasing of Legacy of the Void. Reschedule the releasing date but don't kill the game as HOTS already is.
Incompetence by the game staff led to it. It just didnt die yet because of the great progamers and because of the passionate community that is watching over the game. Also the casters are awesome.
I think Day(9), as always, got to see what we are going through today with his crystal ball and left by the front door last year. He must be laughing now about how Blizzard let this happen. Will didnt they replace David Kim by Day(9)?
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
You think other communities would react any other way in the situation sc2 is in ? It's not the SC2 community, it's human people. Just look at social politics or anything in life, if you take away something they had before, people will complain.
Well even if it's human nature it's not a reason to react stupidly without thinking. DH is not taking anything away from us, or more precisely they are, but gave something to balance it out.
Doesn't matter for public opinion. People overreact, they get scared, that's what they do. I think most people understand that in the end, it's not a big deal, but you're gonna see venting and rage at least the first few days. One thing you can say is that the SC2 community is not confident enough in the state of their game to support them forward. Other esport games communities sure don't or have a lot less concerns about that.
I feel bad, the Romanian scene is pretty big and it must have been sweet for those guys to have the Dreamhack show hitting town with all the Korean and foreign scene talent that came with it.
I hope this isn't a trend that continues. Live events are important, grass roots are also important and they all feed into the scene at the top level.
I don't feel personally affronted by this, I just won't watch. I don't care about other eSport titles or follow them at all so I'll just do something else/watch many of the other SC content out there. However long term we're kidding ourselves if we think that the scene can grow at all with fewer and fewer live events that fans and players alike can attend.
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
You think other communities would react any other way in the situation sc2 is in ? It's not the SC2 community, it's human people. Just look at social politics or anything in life, if you take away something they had before, people will complain.
Well even if it's human nature it's not a reason to react stupidly without thinking. DH is not taking anything away from us, or more precisely they are, but gave something to balance it out.
Doesn't matter for public opinion. People overreact, they get scared, that's what they do. I think most people understand that in the end, it's not a big deal, but you're gonna see venting and rage at least the first few days. One thing you can say is that the SC2 community is not confident enough in the state of their game to support them forward. Other esport games communities sure don't or have a lot less concerns about that.
Ah yes, for sure this kind of reactions has to be expected. I thought you were saying that complaining about it was somehow the "good" reaction
I'd be interested in how they are going to make Minecraft a competitive spectacle - if it will be competitive. If it was speed building a working ALU or something it'd be awesome (it won't be that, of course). Chances are it'll be the console version and not the PC one - I wonder if it has a competitive PvP mod now.
Really sad to see a lack of Starcraft, but perhaps (or surely) they'll be hosting LotV tourneys in the future?
On March 10 2015 00:50 trada wrote: well, if I was a dreamhack executive and had to choose between holding a tourney for a game that gives me lets say $5000 profit or a game that gives me $20000 profit I would choose the $20000 everytime. its probably a pure business decision that in some way relates to money. cant blame them really
The smarter business man figures out how to get both working and make $25000 though
That's assuming the cost of operating is fixed and unchanged after adding an additional game. The additional employees / overhead costs probably had a lot of influence.
Adebisi talked about this on Unfiltered ages ago. DH are focusing their events based on local game support. More CS and Dota in the east, more LoL and SC2 in the west (iirc).
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
"while not decreasing its support of SC2" Sc2 was at Bucharest last year. I remember, one of my favorite players won. It is no longer there now. That's a decrease yeah?
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
"while not decreasing its support of SC2" Sc2 was at Bucharest last year. I remember, one of my favorite players won. It is no longer there now. That's a decrease yeah?
But they added DH:France this year. +1 - 1 = 0, back to the original state, that is, not decreasing the support to SC2.
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
"while not decreasing its support of SC2" Sc2 was at Bucharest last year. I remember, one of my favorite players won. It is no longer there now. That's a decrease yeah?
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
"while not decreasing its support of SC2" Sc2 was at Bucharest last year. I remember, one of my favorite players won. It is no longer there now. That's a decrease yeah?
But they added DH:France this year. +1 - 1 = 0, back to the original state, that is, not decreasing the support to SC2.
They added a whole new event, they didn't add sc2 to an event that didn't have it before.
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
"while not decreasing its support of SC2" Sc2 was at Bucharest last year. I remember, one of my favorite players won. It is no longer there now. That's a decrease yeah?
But they added DH:France this year. +1 - 1 = 0, back to the original state, that is, not decreasing the support to SC2.
They added a whole new event, they didn't add sc2 to an event that didn't have it before.
Which, in terms of SC2, means that there is still the same number of events, which means the same support given to SC2. I don't get your point.
On March 10 2015 00:23 sAsImre wrote: Ohlen fired + Minecraft rofl. nice combo to prove his point
Yeah, I guess the creation of DH:France with SC2 as the main game proves his point too?^^
it was in the books before he was fired. Bucharest has been a good event over years and a staple of the DH SC2 Open, and they dropped it for freaking minecraft...
Well yeah but for now, DH's involvement in SC2 is the same as before, not less important. Besides, DH is a company that needs money, if they incorporate Minecraft is probably not for shit and giggles.
I know that shitty stuff makes money you just have to look at the top song charts most of the time...
You seem pretty disregarding of Minecraft tbh. I don't know much about it, but if there are tournaments then there are probably legit communities and competitions, and then I fail to see how is Minecraft some "shitty stuff" while SC2 is not.
His post is funny because Minecraft's popularity is through the roof. In comparison, SCII isn't known by most people atm. Notch certainly made one hell of a game with minecraft. Makes you wonder what they have in mind for competition though considering the pacing off the game.
On March 10 2015 01:19 Liliputin wrote: Whoever is the new main CEO, one thing is clear: Money > tradition... So fucking sad and annoying... Jews everywhere...
Games for 10 year olds over the best RTS game in history of eSports...
Like, really? Sad times we live in, indeed, but not only for SC2-related reasons...
Robert Ohlen has done a lot to bring us sc2 at DH. I remember him coming on shows like unfiltered partially drunk. He was really funny and informative on sc2 and esport tournaments. I dunno how u completely remove sc2. Scale down, fine. But remove? meh
On March 10 2015 01:19 Liliputin wrote: Whoever is the new main CEO, one thing is clear: Money > tradition... So fucking sad and annoying... Jews everywhere...
Games for 10 year olds over the best RTS game in history of eSports...
Like, really? Sad times we live in, indeed, but not only for SC2-related reasons...
So... does blatant anti-semitism cause warnings or temp bans or anything like that?
On March 10 2015 01:19 Liliputin wrote: Whoever is the new main CEO, one thing is clear: Money > tradition... So fucking sad and annoying... Jews everywhere...
Games for 10 year olds over the best RTS game in history of eSports...
Like, really? Sad times we live in, indeed, but not only for SC2-related reasons...
So... does blatant anti-semitism cause warnings or temp bans or anything like that?
I tried to report, it was already reported. Liquid is the best venue for gaming discussion for a reason- the moderation is strict.
That guy will be warned or banned.
On-topic, no one has explained how Minecraft could possibly be at a Dreamhack. I'm just shocked.
10 year olds are the future, and they are also the move proactive in consuming products and media content, so DH getting on that train to capture that market.
The competition itself is irrelevant, because obviously there is no competition in a game like minecraft.
On March 10 2015 01:19 Liliputin wrote: Whoever is the new main CEO, one thing is clear: Money > tradition... So fucking sad and annoying... Jews everywhere...
Games for 10 year olds over the best RTS game in history of eSports...
User was temp banned for this post.
morhaime is jewish. most people on this board know SC1 and SC2 are mike's favourite games . the only thing that stopped Activision from turning Blizzard into a WoW expansion factory was Uncle Mike. relative to the money that WoW makes.. SC2 should've never existed.. if we only look at money issues.
fortunately, Uncle Mike doesn't just look at money issues. and he is jewish ? wow! who woulda thought?
the hate that gets directed at Mike's company every day on this board and Uncle Mike still stands there and smiles and says .. "please give us your input.. we need the community".
i do not know how Mr. Morhaime does it. but, i'm glad he does because i'm about to hit the "find match" button.
Ok, so it's a game of numbers then. Happened to MTV, music industry, PCs being "replaced" by smartphone and tablets (who cares you can't do anything except mail, texting and angry birds). Personally, I still play Dune II as well as Broodwar and SC2, Doom and Quake I and II, even Heretic I. If they don't want to invite Eric Clapton to a show and bring Justin Bieber instead just because audience is greater for the latter, so be it. Nobody can stop Blizzard to transform into just another company that makes disposable games. They need to make money, and if this is the only way, this is their choice. As well as Dreamhack promoting Minecraft and Heartstone, although this will make Dreamhack just a Hack. At least for me.
On March 10 2015 01:32 Deathstar wrote: 10 year olds are the future, and they are also the move proactive in consuming products and media content, so DH getting on that train to capture that market.
The competition itself is irrelevant, because obviously there is no competition in a game like minecraft.
There is none cause you say so? Define some rules, let people play against each other and it will be competitive. Maybe you don't like it, but still... (i btw have no idea either what they will be doing there, but "mc is for kids" alone is highly ignorant)
On March 10 2015 01:19 Liliputin wrote: Whoever is the new main CEO, one thing is clear: Money > tradition... So fucking sad and annoying... Jews everywhere...
Games for 10 year olds over the best RTS game in history of eSports...
User was temp banned for this post.
morhaime is jewish. most people on this board know SC1 and SC2 are mike's favourite games . the only thing that stopped Activision from turning Blizzard into a WoW expansion factory was Uncle Mike. relative to the money that WoW makes.. SC2 should've never existed.. if we only look at money issues.
fortunately, Uncle Mike doesn't just look at money issues. and he is jewish ? wow! who woulda thought?
the hate that gets directed at Mike's company every day on this board and Uncle Mike still stands there and smiles and says .. "please give us your input.. we need the community".
i do not know how Mr. Morhaime does it. but, i'm glad he does because i'm about to hit the "find match" button.
Seriously, Mike Morhaime should be revered by all SC fans, he saved us. I remember in WCS EU season 1 ro8, in between games they got a skype call going with MM, he was talking about how awesome Mvp v DIMAGA game 2 was (which it was, absolutely insane).
On March 10 2015 01:32 Deathstar wrote: 10 year olds are the future, and they are also the move proactive in consuming products and media content, so DH getting on that train to capture that market.
The competition itself is irrelevant, because obviously there is no competition in a game like minecraft.
There is none cause you say so? Define some rules, let people play against each other and it will be competitive. Maybe you don't like it, but still... (i btw have no idea either what they will be doing there, but "mc is for kids" alone is highly ignorant)
No, Minecraft is definitely for children. It's the least-competitive, lowest-skill game that has ever made it to Twitch - but that's okay, because Minecraft is about creativity.
Maybe the competition is more like... art based? Like, each player gets an hour to make something and then a panel of judges give it a score. Like figure skating.
On March 09 2015 23:52 geokilla wrote: And the death of SC2 in tournaments begins!
I don't understand how Hearthstone and Minecraft is better than SC2 in the esports scene. One is a card game like Yu-Gi-Oh, and the other is... Well I never played Minecraft.
I play both minecraft and HS for fun, but if anyone actually wants to claim they are competetive games, feel free to call them stupid. HS is pure RNG and netdecking since GvG (aside from it being a cardgame, so obviously it's s´really really random).
And minecraft is a casual game if I've ever seen one.
On March 10 2015 01:32 Deathstar wrote: 10 year olds are the future, and they are also the move proactive in consuming products and media content, so DH getting on that train to capture that market.
The competition itself is irrelevant, because obviously there is no competition in a game like minecraft.
There is none cause you say so? Define some rules, let people play against each other and it will be competitive. Maybe you don't like it, but still... (i btw have no idea either what they will be doing there, but "mc is for kids" alone is highly ignorant)
No, Minecraft is definitely for children. It's the least-competitive, lowest-skill game that has ever made it to Twitch - but that's okay, because Minecraft is about creativity.
Maybe the competition is more like... art based? Like, each player gets an hour to make something and then a panel of judges give it a score. Like figure skating.
Minecraft can be art though, you know, like if they make a jury to vote for the best realisation over the year, there are some minecraft maps of middle earth or westeros that are pretty insane and certainly not made by 8 years old...
Anyway, back on sc2 they already did this for sc2 France, announcing it at the last minute, the fact they keep testing the waters shows they're not exactly enthusiastic about sc2, well, so what?
I mean it'd be the end of the world, it may even create space for a more motivated oraganizers to take over the vacant premier tournament spot...
DH is not deciding anything about what games are making esport, in the end it's the audience (us) that decides what are the most viewed games are what are the most entertaining. and franckly we can't say we don't have plenty of extremely good games lately...
let's just make them regret to have abandoned it (if it's confirmed) and move to the next tournament. IN short, let's give IEM Katowice crazy audience figures.
I have reliable sources in the scene but I dont't feel like quoting skype-logs right here.
Gonna need some sources tho
I'm sorry I don't want to post stuff that I havent asked for permission to use. Besides, I could fake a skype screenshot any day, so I don't think that would add much to credibiltity.
Upon being asked by a friend of mine, Hellspawn confimed that there will be no sc2 in Bucharest. My friend needed to know for visa reasons.
On March 10 2015 01:03 OtherWorld wrote: I just realized that the news in the OP dates back to the end of January lol
Thats kinda why I made the post, because I realized this wasn't on here yet... I saw the post a while back but back then it could have been not yet announced.
On March 10 2015 01:03 Wombat_NI wrote: I feel bad, the Romanian scene is pretty big and it must have been sweet for those guys to have the Dreamhack show hitting town with all the Korean and foreign scene talent that came with it.
The information I got contradicts this. The organizer of DH Bucharest is a Romanian organization called PGL, and they, because the sc2 scene in Romania is basically non-existent, decided to swap sc2 with a game with more local support.
The DH Bucharest lineup last year was sick, but if it does not appeal as much as, say Minecraft, does to the local audience, I completely understand the organizer.
It's important to know that DH isnt responsible for everything at all the DH tour stops, those are "outsourced" to local organizers who get to use the DH brand to attract attention (and I guess DH makes quite a bit from it). Local organizers obviously have a say about their event.
On March 10 2015 01:22 Ragnarork wrote: So this time it's not like DH:France? It's not just a "we don't announce it yet"?
On March 10 2015 01:32 Deathstar wrote: 10 year olds are the future, and they are also the move proactive in consuming products and media content, so DH getting on that train to capture that market.
The competition itself is irrelevant, because obviously there is no competition in a game like minecraft.
There is none cause you say so? Define some rules, let people play against each other and it will be competitive. Maybe you don't like it, but still... (i btw have no idea either what they will be doing there, but "mc is for kids" alone is highly ignorant)
Maybe the competition is more like... art based? Like, each player gets an hour to make something and then a panel of judges give it a score. Like figure skating.
I'll just note that I've been to several LANs where a theme is released and teams submit their creative-mode made world within a deadline (usually quite long). It's impressive what some people manage to put together.
Not sure if there's correlation, but the last Dreamhack I watched (which was the first without Ohlen) seemed pretty crappy in terms of quality. Even the SC2 casters didn't seem like they were taking it all that seriously. I even watched some of the other games and didn't feel like they were doing that great of a job.
I think this is actually a blessing in disguise. Dreamhack went down in quality to me lately, so I'm glad they stopped showing SC2. It will survive in other tournaments, like ESL One.
On March 10 2015 02:40 anessie wrote: Makes sense, nobody wants to watch sc2 in its current state, blizzard will have a lot of work to make lotv esports "cool" again.
I don't know if this, DH Bucharest skipping SC2 actually means anything in the long run, but my gut reaction is simple: This is terrible news for SC2 and Blizzard both. If DH the likes of it continues to not include SC2 in their events this year, where HoTS should be peaking really, in terms of providing good competitions that is, and LoTV is still far away from any kind of maturity, its like Blizzard completely missed the timing of the LoTV release. All the momentum the scene currently has would be wiped out, players dispersed etc. So yeah, this could be pretty bad.
Also, I don't quite understand the notion that "...as long as SC2 is going to continue in Korea I don't care...." For me, as a fan of SC2 and with a huge interest in the EU-scene, a SC2 only in Korea is something I wouldn't be able to follow, and to be honest, something that I wouldn't want to follow either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the biggest scene (not to be confused with the strongest scene) is EU, not KR. I wonder how long Blizzard would continue to maintain a game that is only played competitively in KR, when gaming all around the world is booming like nothing we have seen before? Probably 2 seconds?
On March 10 2015 02:44 BaneRiders wrote: I don't know if this, DH Bucharest skipping SC2 actually means anything in the long run, but my gut reaction is simple: This is terrible news for SC2 and Blizzard both. If DH the likes of it continues to not include SC2 in their events this year, where HoTS should be peaking really, in terms of providing good competitions that is, and LoTV is still far away from any kind of maturity, its like Blizzard completely missed the timing of the LoTV release. All the momentum the scene currently has would be wiped out, players dispersed etc. So yeah, this could be pretty bad.
Also, I don't quite understand the notion that "...as long as SC2 is going to continue in Korea I don't care...." For me, as a fan of SC2 and with a huge interest in the EU-scene, a SC2 only in Korea is something I wouldn't be able to follow, and to be honest, something that I wouldn't want to follow either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the biggest scene (not to be confused with the strongest scene) is EU, not KR. I wonder how long Blizzard would continue to maintain a game that is only played competitively in KR, when gaming all around the world is booming like nothing we have seen before? Probably 2 seconds?
That's what I call screaming before you feel the pain. Starcraft 2 will be at the DH which follows Bucharest, Tours, and will most likely be part of the next DHs too. IEM had a non-SC2 event last year, and no one went batshit over it, and IEM is still strongly supporting SC2 as of today.
Really sad news. With LotV coming eventually SC2 will become a thing again and so I'd think it would be smart to invest in the scene, for better interest in the haul.
This thread title is somewhat confusing because I'm not sure if it's saying SC2 isn't the featured game or if SC2 will not be at Bucharest at all. I assume it's the latter. Which really sucks.
On March 10 2015 02:57 Darkhorse wrote: Do we really lose to minecraft in viewership?
Now: Minecraft 14.1k SC2 13.1k
Twitch numbers. Thats right now, some tourneys going for sc2 right now so you could be more unlucky with sc2 viewership timings. Not representative though.
I must admit, I've played more minecraft than starcraft 2, but I dunno about watching minecraft competitively. How would that even work? A race to build the prettiest house? Mine the most diamonds? I'm going to have to tune in out of sheer curiosity.
Using stim has 5% chance of killing the marine Protoss warp in has 20% chance of killing the unit outright because of psionic interference Zerg drones have 10% chance of dropping mineral when harvesting
Hm my cousin is like 12, he playes minecraft all day...but it isn't about building 'n stuff, always some private server and mods that basically turn it into the fugliest version of a poor man's quake 3 I have ever seen. Maybe it is a way for the youth to rebel, playing a game with shitty graphics we had to suffer through in the 90's, but instead of admiring it's redeeming qualities, they cut out the creative game ideas and replace it with something that has been there a million times over. Gotta admire them, I identify as an old folk now, the youth found a way to behave that I just don't want to comprehend.
On March 10 2015 03:12 Deathstar wrote: Yes we need RNG.
Using stim has 5% chance of killing the marine Protoss warp in has 20% chance of killing the unit outright because of psionic interference Zerg drones have 10% chance of dropping mineral when harvesting
A zealot has 50% chances of fleeing the battle when he says "I cannot hold" A roach unburrowing with a hydra on top has 30% chances of creating a mighty hydraroach
Blizzard have made such a wonderfully complex, deep and hard to master game that the masses just don't measure up.
Understandable I guess, but saddening that dreamhack (might, may, have?) Turned their back on the game that helped them get to where they are. No loyalty dreamhack.
Is it time to lose our heads and start spouting "ded gaem" while furiously bashing / witch hunting Dreamhack which fired Ohlen either way whilst spitting on sc2 now because it no longer features it, just like mlg? shall we cry tears of salty sadness that our beloved game is becoming a Korean special, as EU and NA have merged to become foreignercraft?
On March 10 2015 01:53 SharkStarcraft wrote: WOW MINECRAFT REALLY rip esports seriously
Blizzard killed eSports, with a SC2 that has not enough quality, how it should be, how SC and WC3 had in the past.
Well, it's not just Blizzard who is messing it up. I agree, there is lots of room for improvement. Just look at all eSports functions and features that have been added in Dota2 and lately CS:GO. One can tranform lots of those into SC2 to make it a better game.
The one thing which is really worrying me is that the young generation of players seem to like easy-to-learn casual games. Games like Call of Duty, League of Legends, Hearthstone or the newest in the line Heroes of the Storm are the most popular. I grew up with SC:BW and I still love it, but nowadays it seems that most people (= the mass market) don't like stressful games where you have to think and control lots of stuff at the same time. LotV won't save "eSports" or the RTS genre, it just lacks a lot of attention. It doesn't make RTS attractive for the mass.
Dreamhack now kicking out SC2 makes me really sad. It reminds me of the World Cyber Games (WCG), once the best international tourney for SC:BW which has evolved to a shadow of it's old self.
Well making sc2 into something more casual won't help. just look at Grey goo, a casual RTS as you can get that recently came out and went dead very quickly.
I would prefer f2p ladder though and creating an environment where people don't get anxiety before pressing the "find match" button (you guys know what youtube video I'm talking about).
Sad for the state of the game, but good riddance to that ridiculous bo3 semis/bo5 finals format. Beside, we have all the competition we can wish for in Korea right now.
On March 10 2015 03:27 VengefulTree wrote: Sad for the state of the game, but good riddance to that ridiculous bo3 semis/bo5 finals format. Beside, we have all the competition we can wish for in Korea right now.
You do realize that the title is "SC2 not featured at DH Bucharest 2015" and not "SC2 not featured at DH anymore", right?
On March 10 2015 01:53 SharkStarcraft wrote: WOW MINECRAFT REALLY rip esports seriously
Blizzard killed eSports, with a SC2 that has not enough quality, how it should be, how SC and WC3 had in the past.
Well, it's not just Blizzard who is messing it up. I agree, there is lots of room for improvement. Just look at all eSports functions and features that have been added in Dota2 and lately CS:GO. One can tranform lots of those into SC2 to make it a better game.
The one thing which is really worrying me is that the young generation of players seem to like easy-to-learn casual games. Games like Call of Duty, League of Legends, Hearthstone or the newest in the line Heroes of the Storm are the most popular. I grew up with SC:BW and I still love it, but nowadays it seems that most people (= the mass market) don't like stressful games where you have to think and control lots of stuff at the same time. LotV won't save "eSports" or the RTS genre, it just lacks a lot of attention. It doesn't make RTS attractive for the mass.
Dreamhack now kicking out SC2 makes me really sad. It reminds me of the World Cyber Games (WCG), once the best international tourney for SC:BW which has evolved to a shadow of it's old self.
Exactly. Its nothing to do with Blizzard design decisions, if in 98 BW came out and LoL came out there would be no talk about BW and probably no SC2 at all. Even if Blizzard imported every BW fan boy suggestion, the game would have lost out out to MOBAs anyway. Its just unfortunate that fans dont enjoy RTS as a genre anymore and prefer MOBAs -- I personally dont understand their popularity or the popularity of cardstone but I am capable of accepting the sheer numbers you see for streamed games.
It's sad SC2 is sort of "dying" (yeah, the wording sucks) not even 5 years after release (cf. decline of foreign scene, tournaments, general player-base, non-existant fun/arcade-scene, massive decline of korean viewership). This took Broodwar 12 years before you could say it was really dying (and BW was never even close as popular as SC2 ever, except Korea of course).
Even more sad as we haven't even seen the last SC2 expansion yet! I still hope, LotV will change so much for the better, but with every status update of Blizz my hopes are dwindeling. Hope Blizz recognizes that 2 or 3 new units just won't do it!
Anyway, it was great pleasure with DH for all the years. Many of my best tourney memories are of DH. Was always the coolest tourney and most fun to watch. Thanks so much and hope to see you once again in Starcraft universe!
On March 10 2015 01:53 SharkStarcraft wrote: WOW MINECRAFT REALLY rip esports seriously
Blizzard killed eSports, with a SC2 that has not enough quality, how it should be, how SC and WC3 had in the past.
Well, it's not just Blizzard who is messing it up. I agree, there is lots of room for improvement. Just look at all eSports functions and features that have been added in Dota2 and lately CS:GO. One can tranform lots of those into SC2 to make it a better game.
The one thing which is really worrying me is that the young generation of players seem to like easy-to-learn casual games. Games like Call of Duty, League of Legends, Hearthstone or the newest in the line Heroes of the Storm are the most popular. I grew up with SC:BW and I still love it, but nowadays it seems that most people (= the mass market) don't like stressful games where you have to think and control lots of stuff at the same time. LotV won't save "eSports" or the RTS genre, it just lacks a lot of attention. It doesn't make RTS attractive for the mass.
Dreamhack now kicking out SC2 makes me really sad. It reminds me of the World Cyber Games (WCG), once the best international tourney for SC:BW which has evolved to a shadow of it's old self.
Exactly. Its nothing to do with Blizzard design decisions, if in 98 BW came out and LoL came out there would be no talk about BW and probably no SC2 at all. Even if Blizzard imported every BW fan boy suggestion, the game would have lost out out to MOBAs anyway. Its just unfortunate that fans dont enjoy RTS as a genre anymore and prefer MOBAs -- I personally dont understand their popularity or the popularity of cardstone but I am capable of accepting the sheer numbers you see for streamed games.
I doubt that. The player scene and their affinity to certain genres was different. I actually know a lot of oldschool players really disliking moba games.
On March 10 2015 03:41 Caladan wrote: It's sad SC2 is sort of "dying" (yeah, the wording sucks) not even 5 years after release (cf. decline of foreign scene, tournaments, general player-base, non-existant fun/arcade-scene, massive decline of korean viewership). This took Broodwar 12 years before you could say it was really dying (and BW was never even close as popular as SC2 ever, except Korea of course).
Even more sad as we haven't even seen the last SC2 expansion yet! I still hope, LotV will change so much for the better, but with every status update of Blizz my hopes are dwindeling. Hope Blizz recognizes that 2 or 3 new units just won't do it!
Anyway, it was great pleasure with DH for all the years. Many of my best tourney memories are of DH. Was always the coolest tourney and most fun to watch. Thanks so much and hope to see you once again in Starcraft universe!
I quit broodwar completely in 2006 and it had been pretty dead for a while lol, it carried on with a very small community but it was pretty much a dead game too, people overrate quite a bit how long SC:BW lasted
fwiw I think that if Bnet 2.0 didn't feel so much like a fucking ghosttown it would be better, I had a great time hanging out in channels in broodwar, on SC2 you feel so alone when you log on and you're not in a game, they should make the chat channels a priority or something that encourage communities to build
On March 10 2015 03:41 Caladan wrote: It's sad SC2 is sort of "dying" (yeah, the wording sucks) not even 5 years after release (cf. decline of foreign scene, tournaments, general player-base, non-existant fun/arcade-scene, massive decline of korean viewership). This took Broodwar 12 years before you could say it was really dying (and BW was never even close as popular as SC2 ever, except Korea of course).
Even more sad as we haven't even seen the last SC2 expansion yet! I still hope, LotV will change so much for the better, but with every status update of Blizz my hopes are dwindeling. Hope Blizz recognizes that 2 or 3 new units just won't do it!
Anyway, it was great pleasure with DH for all the years. Many of my best tourney memories are of DH. Was always the coolest tourney and most fun to watch. Thanks so much and hope to see you once again in Starcraft universe!
I quit broodwar completely in 2006 and it had been pretty dead for a while lol, it carried on with a very small community but it was pretty much a dead game too, people overrate quite a bit how long SC:BW lasted
fwiw I think that if Bnet 2.0 didn't feel so much like a fucking ghosttown it would be better, I had a great time hanging out in channels in broodwar, on SC2 you feel so alone when you log on and you're not in a game, they should make the chat channels a priority or something that encourage communities to build
The player base in general was smaller than sc2 or other games nowadays. But it never was a dead game until 2010-2011. There were plenty of communities, clanleagues, clans, nationteams/wars and tournaments. In comparison there is no real clanleague around in sc2 (apart from proleague and some money "clanleagues"). As long as you have a good community a game is not dead. Actually something i felt sc2 never had, especially with the "ghosttown" bnet2.
On March 10 2015 03:12 Deathstar wrote: Yes we need RNG.
Using stim has 5% chance of killing the marine Protoss warp in has 20% chance of killing the unit outright because of psionic interference Zerg drones have 10% chance of dropping mineral when harvesting
A zealot has 50% chances of fleeing the battle when he says "I cannot hold" A roach unburrowing with a hydra on top has 30% chances of creating a mighty hydraroach
If I recall correctly, I remember an interview with a DH exec of some sort who was saying things about how the would be changing the lineups for certain events based on the tastes of players in the region. So in Eastern europe/CIS, for example, they prefer DotA. in western EU it is more CS:GO, and maybe in the north/scandinavia Sc2 is still fairly big.
(this is from the perspective of an ignorant american pls no hate meh)
I dont really know why this is news as DH announced months ago that sc2 was no longer their featured game and would not likely be at every dreamhack event in 2015. According to liquipedia its still scheduled for a few dreamhack events this year so its not like they are dropping it entirely. Other games bring in more money than starcraft, its that simple. Get mad all you want, make fun of minecraft all you want, it just makes us look that much more pathetic
On March 10 2015 03:12 Deathstar wrote: Yes we need RNG.
Using stim has 5% chance of killing the marine Protoss warp in has 20% chance of killing the unit outright because of psionic interference Zerg drones have 10% chance of dropping mineral when harvesting
A zealot has 50% chances of fleeing the battle when he says "I cannot hold" A roach unburrowing with a hydra on top has 30% chances of creating a mighty hydraroach
hahahahaha allow me to elaborate
5% chance of killing the marine but also a 10% chance to give it 50% extra attack speed and movement speed Protoss warp in has 20% chance of killing the unit outright because of psionic interference - and a 20% chance to warp a random gateway unit of any tech Zergling cocoons have a 5% chance to spawn into an ultralisk banelings have a 10% chance to detonate suddenly RAven missiles have a 15% chance to hit an ally unit psi storm does 2-30 dps
I see SC2 becoming more interesting already hahaha
just give every projectile weapon actual physics and collision with a rng scatter pattern and call it a day. Also producing any zerg unit has a chance of a random mutation / upgrade amount. All research and upgrades removed from zerg. Makes perfect sense.
Perhaps someone can enlighten me but is SC2 viewership really that bad? The numbers seem fairly consistent for the premier tournaments and even at this moment I can look to the sidebar and see about ~10k viewers for the group stage of a major tournament on a Monday.
On March 10 2015 03:12 Deathstar wrote: Yes we need RNG.
Using stim has 5% chance of killing the marine Protoss warp in has 20% chance of killing the unit outright because of psionic interference Zerg drones have 10% chance of dropping mineral when harvesting
A zealot has 50% chances of fleeing the battle when he says "I cannot hold" A roach unburrowing with a hydra on top has 30% chances of creating a mighty hydraroach
hahahahaha allow me to elaborate
5% chance of killing the marine but also a 10% chance to give it 50% extra attack speed and movement speed Protoss warp in has 20% chance of killing the unit outright because of psionic interference - and a 20% chance to warp a random gateway unit of any tech Zergling cocoons have a 5% chance to spawn into an ultralisk banelings have a 10% chance to detonate suddenly RAven missiles have a 15% chance to hit an ally unit psi storm does 2-30 dps
I see SC2 becoming more interesting already hahaha
5% zerglings into ultra? Essentially guaranteed 5 ultras if you're playing ling/bling/muta, oh god. Needs nerf, 1%.
More fun RNG:
- All units have baseline 5% chance to critically strike, dealing 150% normal damage for high attack speed units and 200% damage for low attack speed units
- Forcefields have a chance to break before full duration - This chance is increased by the number of units touching the field
- Colossus have a 10% chance when overlapping with another Colossus to bump into each other and fall down, causing Bonk. - Bonk: unit is stunned for 3 seconds
- Marines have a 1% chance per tile to trip while moving - trips have a 10% chance to cause Broken Ankle, permanently slowing the unit
- Zerglings now act like the impetuous youth that they are, and now ignore 2% of all orders
On March 10 2015 01:53 SharkStarcraft wrote: WOW MINECRAFT REALLY rip esports seriously
Blizzard killed eSports, with a SC2 that has not enough quality, how it should be, how SC and WC3 had in the past.
Well, it's not just Blizzard who is messing it up. I agree, there is lots of room for improvement. Just look at all eSports functions and features that have been added in Dota2 and lately CS:GO. One can tranform lots of those into SC2 to make it a better game.
The one thing which is really worrying me is that the young generation of players seem to like easy-to-learn casual games. Games like Call of Duty, League of Legends, Hearthstone or the newest in the line Heroes of the Storm are the most popular. I grew up with SC:BW and I still love it, but nowadays it seems that most people (= the mass market) don't like stressful games where you have to think and control lots of stuff at the same time. LotV won't save "eSports" or the RTS genre, it just lacks a lot of attention. It doesn't make RTS attractive for the mass.
Dreamhack now kicking out SC2 makes me really sad. It reminds me of the World Cyber Games (WCG), once the best international tourney for SC:BW which has evolved to a shadow of it's old self.
its called generation console
is there anything really interesting news out? no koreans wining a foreigner tournement thats a good news or a bad news ?
On March 10 2015 04:37 Footler wrote: Perhaps someone can enlighten me but is SC2 viewership really that bad? The numbers seem fairly consistent for the premier tournaments and even at this moment I can look to the sidebar and see about ~10k viewers for the group stage of a major tournament on a Monday.
We just don't have that foreign hope that everyone either loves/hates. SC2 used to be top 3 or 4 on twitch but in my opinion over time, Koreans constantly winning WCS "NA" or "EU", along with other big foreign tournaments, really spelled the end of the profitability for these companies as it relates to SC2. It's not that we don't like Koreans (this season GSL might be my favorite, minus Life's royal road in 2012), it's just that foreigners can't win anything, and it's really hard to build a fanbase off the the notion "well i'm the best foreigner, come to the tournament and watch me get ro16!". In my mind, this is why Blizzard changed WCS this year. Still, even with the changes, Koreans will still probably win NA and EU. But hey, more foreigners are at least making the live show, so that's a start.
To be honest, I found myself skipping like the first 1 1/2 to 2 days of the Dreamhacks anyway because there are so many matches I don't care about happening at the same time <.<
On March 10 2015 03:41 Caladan wrote: It's sad SC2 is sort of "dying" (yeah, the wording sucks) not even 5 years after release (cf. decline of foreign scene, tournaments, general player-base, non-existant fun/arcade-scene, massive decline of korean viewership). This took Broodwar 12 years before you could say it was really dying (and BW was never even close as popular as SC2 ever, except Korea of course).
Even more sad as we haven't even seen the last SC2 expansion yet! I still hope, LotV will change so much for the better, but with every status update of Blizz my hopes are dwindeling. Hope Blizz recognizes that 2 or 3 new units just won't do it!
Anyway, it was great pleasure with DH for all the years. Many of my best tourney memories are of DH. Was always the coolest tourney and most fun to watch. Thanks so much and hope to see you once again in Starcraft universe!
I quit broodwar completely in 2006 and it had been pretty dead for a while lol, it carried on with a very small community but it was pretty much a dead game too, people overrate quite a bit how long SC:BW lasted
fwiw I think that if Bnet 2.0 didn't feel so much like a fucking ghosttown it would be better, I had a great time hanging out in channels in broodwar, on SC2 you feel so alone when you log on and you're not in a game, they should make the chat channels a priority or something that encourage communities to build
This is seriously off-topic so I will make it very short: If you did quit BW in 2006 you have QUITE A WHOLE LOT missed of BW's history. In fact it was more on the uprise in the following years than anything and still had a very lively community. Never as big as nowaday's games, but still alive, on fun level, casual level, pro level, clan level, nation wars, map making scene, .....
On March 10 2015 05:12 Fran_ wrote: DH removed from my watch list.
Because they removed SC2 from one single event? Yay, SC2 community so mature and respectful amirite
Yes, I'm only interested in SC2, so please explain me why it's immature and not respectful to remove from my watch list an event that does not show it. I did not call any name.
On March 10 2015 05:12 Fran_ wrote: DH removed from my watch list.
Because they removed SC2 from one single event? Yay, SC2 community so mature and respectful amirite
Yes, I'm only interested in SC2, so please explain me why it's immature and not respectful to remove from my watch list an event that does not show it. I did not call any name.
Ah sorry, I thought you meant DH as in "every DH" and not "DH:Bucharest"
On March 10 2015 04:37 Footler wrote: Perhaps someone can enlighten me but is SC2 viewership really that bad? The numbers seem fairly consistent for the premier tournaments and even at this moment I can look to the sidebar and see about ~10k viewers for the group stage of a major tournament on a Monday.
We just don't have that foreign hope that everyone either loves/hates. SC2 used to be top 3 or 4 on twitch but in my opinion over time, Koreans constantly winning WCS "NA" or "EU", along with other big foreign tournaments, really spelled the end of the profitability for these companies as it relates to SC2. It's not that we don't like Koreans (this season GSL might be my favorite, minus Life's royal road in 2012), it's just that foreigners can't win anything, and it's really hard to build a fanbase off the the notion "well i'm the best foreigner, come to the tournament and watch me get ro16!". In my mind, this is why Blizzard changed WCS this year. Still, even with the changes, Koreans will still probably win NA and EU. But hey, more foreigners are at least making the live show, so that's a start.
Ya but I believe viewership has stayed the same for SC2. It's just other games boomed in viewership. Correct?
On March 10 2015 05:12 Fran_ wrote: DH removed from my watch list.
Because they removed SC2 from one single event? Yay, SC2 community so mature and respectful amirite
Yes, I'm only interested in SC2, so please explain me why it's immature and not respectful to remove from my watch list an event that does not show it. I did not call any name.
Ah sorry, I thought you meant DH as in "every DH" and not "DH:Bucharest"
Understood. I will also remove any other DH that does not show it of course.
On March 10 2015 04:37 Footler wrote: Perhaps someone can enlighten me but is SC2 viewership really that bad? The numbers seem fairly consistent for the premier tournaments and even at this moment I can look to the sidebar and see about ~10k viewers for the group stage of a major tournament on a Monday.
We just don't have that foreign hope that everyone either loves/hates. SC2 used to be top 3 or 4 on twitch but in my opinion over time, Koreans constantly winning WCS "NA" or "EU", along with other big foreign tournaments, really spelled the end of the profitability for these companies as it relates to SC2. It's not that we don't like Koreans (this season GSL might be my favorite, minus Life's royal road in 2012), it's just that foreigners can't win anything, and it's really hard to build a fanbase off the the notion "well i'm the best foreigner, come to the tournament and watch me get ro16!". In my mind, this is why Blizzard changed WCS this year. Still, even with the changes, Koreans will still probably win NA and EU. But hey, more foreigners are at least making the live show, so that's a start.
Ya but I believe viewership has stayed the same for SC2. It's just other games boomed in viewership. Correct?
Sc2 viewership is lower than it has been in the past. I remember when in the middle of BL-infestor era , wcs europe finals made 100k viewers.
On March 10 2015 04:37 Footler wrote: Perhaps someone can enlighten me but is SC2 viewership really that bad? The numbers seem fairly consistent for the premier tournaments and even at this moment I can look to the sidebar and see about ~10k viewers for the group stage of a major tournament on a Monday.
We just don't have that foreign hope that everyone either loves/hates. SC2 used to be top 3 or 4 on twitch but in my opinion over time, Koreans constantly winning WCS "NA" or "EU", along with other big foreign tournaments, really spelled the end of the profitability for these companies as it relates to SC2. It's not that we don't like Koreans (this season GSL might be my favorite, minus Life's royal road in 2012), it's just that foreigners can't win anything, and it's really hard to build a fanbase off the the notion "well i'm the best foreigner, come to the tournament and watch me get ro16!". In my mind, this is why Blizzard changed WCS this year. Still, even with the changes, Koreans will still probably win NA and EU. But hey, more foreigners are at least making the live show, so that's a start.
Ya but I believe viewership has stayed the same for SC2. It's just other games boomed in viewership. Correct?
Someone else who knows the viewer counts could answer that better. In my speculation, it has dropped overall. The tournaments seem to do alright, but not necessarily great either. Big name foreigners are non-existent so you no longer see the 10-12k streams that Idra and Stephano used to have back in their hay day. That being said the twitch platform has improved a lot the past few years and i'm sure the overall viewership of twitch has exploded.
On March 10 2015 01:53 SharkStarcraft wrote: WOW MINECRAFT REALLY rip esports seriously
Blizzard killed eSports, with a SC2 that has not enough quality, how it should be, how SC and WC3 had in the past.
Well, it's not just Blizzard who is messing it up. I agree, there is lots of room for improvement. Just look at all eSports functions and features that have been added in Dota2 and lately CS:GO. One can tranform lots of those into SC2 to make it a better game.
The one thing which is really worrying me is that the young generation of players seem to like easy-to-learn casual games. Games like Call of Duty, League of Legends, Hearthstone or the newest in the line Heroes of the Storm are the most popular. I grew up with SC:BW and I still love it, but nowadays it seems that most people (= the mass market) don't like stressful games where you have to think and control lots of stuff at the same time. LotV won't save "eSports" or the RTS genre, it just lacks a lot of attention. It doesn't make RTS attractive for the mass.
Dreamhack now kicking out SC2 makes me really sad. It reminds me of the World Cyber Games (WCG), once the best international tourney for SC:BW which has evolved to a shadow of it's old self.
Exactly. Its nothing to do with Blizzard design decisions, if in 98 BW came out and LoL came out there would be no talk about BW and probably no SC2 at all. Even if Blizzard imported every BW fan boy suggestion, the game would have lost out out to MOBAs anyway. Its just unfortunate that fans dont enjoy RTS as a genre anymore and prefer MOBAs -- I personally dont understand their popularity or the popularity of cardstone but I am capable of accepting the sheer numbers you see for streamed games.
When StarCraft came out the bigger events were the FPS games. Quake tournaments had more interest and way bigger prizes (like $100k for first, Ferrari for first compared to SC which had $10k for first in its first two PGL tournaments) and the i2e2 circuit that replaced PGL had Quake and Broodwar, but Quake seemed to be favored there too. It wasn't until Korea happened after the KBK tournament that there was a full professional esports scene.
Now there are more options and more diversity, but there is also way more money involved across the board. StarCraft 2 has had a good run and is still going and surely will at least get some bump when LotV comes out...probably nothing like the original excitement, but still it will bring some freshness to the scene.
On March 10 2015 04:37 Footler wrote: Perhaps someone can enlighten me but is SC2 viewership really that bad? The numbers seem fairly consistent for the premier tournaments and even at this moment I can look to the sidebar and see about ~10k viewers for the group stage of a major tournament on a Monday.
We just don't have that foreign hope that everyone either loves/hates. SC2 used to be top 3 or 4 on twitch but in my opinion over time, Koreans constantly winning WCS "NA" or "EU", along with other big foreign tournaments, really spelled the end of the profitability for these companies as it relates to SC2. It's not that we don't like Koreans (this season GSL might be my favorite, minus Life's royal road in 2012), it's just that foreigners can't win anything, and it's really hard to build a fanbase off the the notion "well i'm the best foreigner, come to the tournament and watch me get ro16!". In my mind, this is why Blizzard changed WCS this year. Still, even with the changes, Koreans will still probably win NA and EU. But hey, more foreigners are at least making the live show, so that's a start.
Ya but I believe viewership has stayed the same for SC2. It's just other games boomed in viewership. Correct?
Sc2 viewership is lower than it has been in the past. I remember when in the middle of BL-infestor era , wcs europe finals made 100k viewers.
Okay, so after some research. Viewership is down from that era but it seems to have mostly leveled off now with global finals doing quite well.
Why are people so angry? It's natural for a game with lesser viewership to be replaced. People are so angry, saying things like that the newer generation are too lazy, when the simple truth is that simply put, SC2 just isn't interesting or fun enough to hold the interest of the general gaming population. That SC2 is more mechanically demanding and defeat is harsher is irrelevant.
On March 10 2015 01:53 SharkStarcraft wrote: WOW MINECRAFT REALLY rip esports seriously
Blizzard killed eSports, with a SC2 that has not enough quality, how it should be, how SC and WC3 had in the past.
Well, it's not just Blizzard who is messing it up. I agree, there is lots of room for improvement. Just look at all eSports functions and features that have been added in Dota2 and lately CS:GO. One can tranform lots of those into SC2 to make it a better game.
The one thing which is really worrying me is that the young generation of players seem to like easy-to-learn casual games. Games like Call of Duty, League of Legends, Hearthstone or the newest in the line Heroes of the Storm are the most popular. I grew up with SC:BW and I still love it, but nowadays it seems that most people (= the mass market) don't like stressful games where you have to think and control lots of stuff at the same time. LotV won't save "eSports" or the RTS genre, it just lacks a lot of attention. It doesn't make RTS attractive for the mass.
Dreamhack now kicking out SC2 makes me really sad. It reminds me of the World Cyber Games (WCG), once the best international tourney for SC:BW which has evolved to a shadow of it's old self.
Exactly. Its nothing to do with Blizzard design decisions, if in 98 BW came out and LoL came out there would be no talk about BW and probably no SC2 at all. Even if Blizzard imported every BW fan boy suggestion, the game would have lost out out to MOBAs anyway. Its just unfortunate that fans dont enjoy RTS as a genre anymore and prefer MOBAs -- I personally dont understand their popularity or the popularity of cardstone but I am capable of accepting the sheer numbers you see for streamed games.
I doubt that. The player scene and their affinity to certain genres was different. I actually know a lot of oldschool players really disliking moba games.
I am not saying people who were pros in BW would be pros in LoL in 98, I am saying that the fan base for LoL would dwarf BW so badly that there would be no BW culture as people know it.
On March 10 2015 05:52 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Why are people so angry? It's natural for a game with lesser viewership to be replaced. People are so angry, saying things like that the newer generation are too lazy, when the simple truth is that simply put, SC2 just isn't interesting or fun enough to hold the interest of the general gaming population. That SC2 is more mechanically demanding and defeat is harsher is irrelevant.
Speak for yourself, bucko. It's simple. Like, 80% of the population is retarded. Like, at least 80%. It only makes sense that a game as beautiful and challenging as SC2 won't be very popular. Just like jazz.
Well this kinda sucks but at least it proves that we are of higher class and have better taste in competitive games than others. We're the proverbial "cool kids".
On March 10 2015 06:03 Weavel wrote: Well DH is dead to me then....
But it's still going to be at DH France
I hope you are right man, I agree with the rest who won't watch a DH without SC2. The other games just don't have what it takes to make me want to watch.
It's a shame too, DH Bucharest was one of the most interesting DHs last year I thought. I think it had perhaps too many invited Koreans compared to the total number of players (there were like more than 16, crowding out quite a few EU/NA fan favorites I suspect), yet there were plenty of upsets like ToDs group and Zanster and such. Snute and Bunny made it to the quarterfinals at least. Ah well, we won't see that happening in Bucharest this year...
I honestly don't understand why people are so surprised. It is obvious that for dreamhack organizing a tournament is all about profitability and it's painstakingly obvious that in that aspect SC2 currently cannot compete with Counter Strike: Global Offensive, DOTA 2, League of Leagends, HearthStone etc.
On March 10 2015 06:22 SC2Towelie wrote: Letting Robert Ohlen go was that biggest fucking mistake Dreamhack could've possibly made...
Business wise it was a good decision. They have to feature the most popular games to get money. And these days even big SC2 tournaments getting less viewers than some guys streaming HS or Minecraft or even completely random game from their homes. SC2 went from top 3-5th most viewed game on twitch to like top 20-25 in the last 3-4 years. I remember when JD's or HerO's streams had like 5-6k viewers pretty much every time they streamed, last few times I saw those they were somewhere between 1 and 1.5k.
On March 10 2015 06:22 SC2Towelie wrote: Letting Robert Ohlen go was that biggest fucking mistake Dreamhack could've possibly made...
Business wise it was a good decision. They have to feature the most popular games to get money. And these days even big SC2 tournaments getting less viewers than some guy streaming HS or Minecraft from their homes. SC2 went from top 3-5th most viewed game on twitch to like top 20-25 in the last 3-4 years. I remember when JD's or HerO's streams had like 5-6k viewers pretty much every time they streamed, last few times I saw those they were somewhere between 1 and 1.5k.
one reason might be that they dropped to foreigner level in skill....
So in all these pages nobody figured out what the competition in minecraft is? How am I the only one who hears "minecraft is for kids" and thinks about how easy kids are to beat at video games? I want a big glass star that says MINECRAFT CHAMPION DREAMHACK
Dremhack Bucharest 2015 will include the most popular games of the moment: Counter Strike: Global Offensive (CS:GO), DOTA 2, League of Leagends, HearthStone, Minecraft and console games.
I understand Dreamhacks decision but it's partially their fault that their sc2 stream had relatively low viewership. I disliked their format (group stages 1 and 2 were a boring waste of time) and the tournament had way too many Koreans to be interesting for casual viewers.
On March 10 2015 03:41 Caladan wrote: It's sad SC2 is sort of "dying" (yeah, the wording sucks) not even 5 years after release (cf. decline of foreign scene, tournaments, general player-base, non-existant fun/arcade-scene, massive decline of korean viewership). This took Broodwar 12 years before you could say it was really dying (and BW was never even close as popular as SC2 ever, except Korea of course).
Even more sad as we haven't even seen the last SC2 expansion yet! I still hope, LotV will change so much for the better, but with every status update of Blizz my hopes are dwindeling. Hope Blizz recognizes that 2 or 3 new units just won't do it!
Anyway, it was great pleasure with DH for all the years. Many of my best tourney memories are of DH. Was always the coolest tourney and most fun to watch. Thanks so much and hope to see you once again in Starcraft universe!
I quit broodwar completely in 2006 and it had been pretty dead for a while lol, it carried on with a very small community but it was pretty much a dead game too, people overrate quite a bit how long SC:BW lasted
fwiw I think that if Bnet 2.0 didn't feel so much like a fucking ghosttown it would be better, I had a great time hanging out in channels in broodwar, on SC2 you feel so alone when you log on and you're not in a game, they should make the chat channels a priority or something that encourage communities to build
This is seriously off-topic so I will make it very short: If you did quit BW in 2006 you have QUITE A WHOLE LOT missed of BW's history. In fact it was more on the uprise in the following years than anything and still had a very lively community. Never as big as nowaday's games, but still alive, on fun level, casual level, pro level, clan level, nation wars, map making scene, .....
I honestly never played that much with koreans, a bit with nada and yellow but the language barrier made it really boring for me, and when I quit the foreign scene had thinned out soooo much since I had started playing that it felt incredibly dead, so yeah I suppose the pro scene in korea was probably very much alive but most non-koreans had stopped playing, at least everyone I knew, there were some new solid foreigners like Major I guess but the foreign scene had gotten pretty boring, at least to me.
I just really don't get why the popular games right now are popular. Except for CSGO and to a lesser extent Dota2 none of them seem particularly competitive or challenging to me. Maybe I'm getting too old.
By the way anybody who is decrying this as the death of starcraft 2 tournaments (yes i read some of these posts) are kinda clueless and insane. Does this suck? Yeah, it's a total bummer. But it's not like this hasn't happened before. MLG, IPL, NASL, OSL, we've lost plenty of tournaments before but we're still going strong. You can't kill starcraft 2 as easily as some of you think the whole world is conspiring to do.
On March 10 2015 03:41 Caladan wrote: It's sad SC2 is sort of "dying" (yeah, the wording sucks) not even 5 years after release (cf. decline of foreign scene, tournaments, general player-base, non-existant fun/arcade-scene, massive decline of korean viewership). This took Broodwar 12 years before you could say it was really dying (and BW was never even close as popular as SC2 ever, except Korea of course).
Even more sad as we haven't even seen the last SC2 expansion yet! I still hope, LotV will change so much for the better, but with every status update of Blizz my hopes are dwindeling. Hope Blizz recognizes that 2 or 3 new units just won't do it!
Anyway, it was great pleasure with DH for all the years. Many of my best tourney memories are of DH. Was always the coolest tourney and most fun to watch. Thanks so much and hope to see you once again in Starcraft universe!
I quit broodwar completely in 2006 and it had been pretty dead for a while lol, it carried on with a very small community but it was pretty much a dead game too, people overrate quite a bit how long SC:BW lasted
fwiw I think that if Bnet 2.0 didn't feel so much like a fucking ghosttown it would be better, I had a great time hanging out in channels in broodwar, on SC2 you feel so alone when you log on and you're not in a game, they should make the chat channels a priority or something that encourage communities to build
This is seriously off-topic so I will make it very short: If you did quit BW in 2006 you have QUITE A WHOLE LOT missed of BW's history. In fact it was more on the uprise in the following years than anything and still had a very lively community. Never as big as nowaday's games, but still alive, on fun level, casual level, pro level, clan level, nation wars, map making scene, .....
I honestly never played that much with koreans, a bit with nada and yellow but the language barrier made it really boring for me, and when I quit the foreign scene had thinned out soooo much since I had started playing that it felt incredibly dead, so yeah I suppose the pro scene in korea was probably very much alive but most non-koreans had stopped playing, at least everyone I knew, there were some new solid foreigners like Major I guess but the foreign scene had gotten pretty boring, at least to me.
The foreign scene had been in a major decline since around 2000. Of course some kept on playing, but when you go from having the gamers.com server to play on, Kali to play on, and at least 6 full channels of people matching in bnet (feared, ph channel, liz, gx, kali, msk and x17) to having one mostly afk or bot channel it feels deserted. Most of the early broodwar players went on to play War3 (TillerMan), make money off MMOs (Dimmack), poker (Pillars, Maynard, Elky, Grrr, even Dudey! etc), making games (Zileas) or just moved on with college and career. Broodwar was Korea outside a small and dedicated hard core group of players later on. StarCraft 2 is likely to stay above that level just because of the amount of tournaments and WCS, but will likely fade on until Legacy of the Void comes out. If you enjoy the game enjoy it...if you want to watch out support it where you can. I think there is a group of people (I may be projecting myself) that had a connection to early SC2 that has died out with the competitiveness of the nonKorean scene dying out. Getting to see Boxer vs Nada in GSL was amazing, Jinro and Idra and Huk and Naniwa had great runs in Korea, Stephano had great runs outside Korea...those players are gone (maybe Naniwa returns to form..dunno). The novelty of seeing Flash, Jaedong, etc come over is gone. Its still fun when you see Terminator bust out a 9 carrier build in GSL or MC return to Korea and break some nerd necks, but the novelty and interest isn't there like it was in the beginning for me and apparently much of the community. Enjoy what you can while it is here.
On March 09 2015 23:40 pNRG wrote: Minecraft & console > SC2. Rest In Pepperonis.
User was warned for this post
A sad day lol. They might give us an event last minute who knows. But knowing beta is soon for LotV I'm sure they'll definetely feature us again when LotV is close to/out.
On March 10 2015 00:00 Alchemik wrote: why do we hate Dreamhack all of a sudden, guys?
"They dropped SC2 for one event, so instead of a logical business decision made by intelligent people it must be a deep and personal hatred that the DH staff has for the great game that is SC2, because DH obviously has tons and tons of money to waste supporting every single game ever."
intelligent people? hahahahahahahahahahaha
These decisions are always done by GREEDY people, intelligent hahahahahaha
User was warned for this post
This shit screams sellout imo.
And I imagine the CEO's probably don't give a shit about what game is being featured... only that "the kids will like it"
Is it me or did the downfall of this scene start when IPL disappeared? That was the first major disappointment I can remember. Imo, those guys built a GREAT brand, then someone buys out the company and shits all over it. Blizzard picks up Kevin and instead of growing that brand along side wcs, that shit dissolves and wcs ends up sucking (Maybe its better now, but I still would have rather watched a DH or IPL). Sc2 needs more tourneys, and good ones like IPL. Fight night was great. Every tourney the community loses, just fucks the scene over. It really sucks.
Fuck the assholes at DH. It's just about numbers and which game pulls in the most money. And don't tell me, "It's just one DH event," because this is what it looks like at the start of phasing a game out.
I was wondering why things were so quiet about SC2 on the Dreamhack front. I guess they'll just be quiet a bit longer then. I'm kinda craving another nice weekend tournament, though looks like IEM is coming up soon.
I wish MLG would do SC2 and come to Dallas again so I can finally be in place to go see it live instead of watching from a dorm room while I see my friends on stream getting autographs from literally everyone I fanboy over.
On March 10 2015 17:17 d00p wrote: Minecraft was developed in Sweden right? And DH is a Swedish organisation? Still doesn't make any sense though.
What doesn't make sense? SC2 didn't fit the budget, it wasn't worth to run and so they decided to do something different. It's literally how event business works, it isn't charity.
The best thing to come out of this is the showcase of how utterly ungrateful and unintelligent the SC2 fans are. Dreamhack have already stated that SC2 is in the backseat for 2015 and when it isn't there for a stop people go berserk and call Dreamhack out for it.
After this thread I can just hope there won't ever be any more SC2 at Dreamhack at all.
It kind of makes sense. When I look the stream viewers and the BW streams have like over 3000 people watching and the top SC2 players have like 400, one has to wonder if SC2 is in reality a boring game. I know I think it's boring after only a year of watching and playing it. Yet I still watch BW games after 15 years of being some form of fan of it.
Last year there have been 2 Dreamhack events in Bucharest. One with SC2, which I attended, and another one without, which I passed.
However, the report on Dreamhack 2015 indicates that the second event was higher in attendance.
I don't think Minecraft is in place of SC2, in terms of logistics and investment needed it is no way near. Minecraft is there as a side game. SC2 was phased our by LOL, Dota2, Heartstone, CS:GO.... .
This is what happens when DH stops trying to make things cool and invest in viewership (since Ohlen got backstabbed/sacked) and just settles for the flavor of the season waiting for the cash to flow(anyone remembers when CS views were down a lot? guess what, same happens with SC2 atm).
Hopefully things will shape up with LotV and we`ll get some SC2 back here.
On March 10 2015 01:53 SharkStarcraft wrote: WOW MINECRAFT REALLY rip esports seriously
Blizzard killed eSports, with a SC2 that has not enough quality, how it should be, how SC and WC3 had in the past.
Well, it's not just Blizzard who is messing it up. I agree, there is lots of room for improvement. Just look at all eSports functions and features that have been added in Dota2 and lately CS:GO. One can tranform lots of those into SC2 to make it a better game.
The one thing which is really worrying me is that the young generation of players seem to like easy-to-learn casual games. Games like Call of Duty, League of Legends, Hearthstone or the newest in the line Heroes of the Storm are the most popular. I grew up with SC:BW and I still love it, but nowadays it seems that most people (= the mass market) don't like stressful games where you have to think and control lots of stuff at the same time. LotV won't save "eSports" or the RTS genre, it just lacks a lot of attention. It doesn't make RTS attractive for the mass.
Dreamhack now kicking out SC2 makes me really sad. It reminds me of the World Cyber Games (WCG), once the best international tourney for SC:BW which has evolved to a shadow of it's old self.
Exactly. Its nothing to do with Blizzard design decisions, if in 98 BW came out and LoL came out there would be no talk about BW and probably no SC2 at all. Even if Blizzard imported every BW fan boy suggestion, the game would have lost out out to MOBAs anyway. Its just unfortunate that fans dont enjoy RTS as a genre anymore and prefer MOBAs -- I personally dont understand their popularity or the popularity of cardstone but I am capable of accepting the sheer numbers you see for streamed games.
There is no reason to think that at all imo.
Compare BW and CS 1.6 relative success and SC2 and CS:GO's relative success. CS:GO is basically the same game as 1.6 while sc2 is completely different. While CS is stil massively popular, starcraft is now a pretty marginal game. What does this tell us? I'd say it is a sign that the market (or the gamers preferences) hasn't changed much.
I don't follow this closely, but with the rising popularity of the BW streams and tournaments it looks like the old game could maybe even become more popular than SC2 again - that also should indicate that there is more problems with the game than the genre. We just need a better game.
On March 10 2015 01:53 SharkStarcraft wrote: WOW MINECRAFT REALLY rip esports seriously
Blizzard killed eSports, with a SC2 that has not enough quality, how it should be, how SC and WC3 had in the past.
Well, it's not just Blizzard who is messing it up. I agree, there is lots of room for improvement. Just look at all eSports functions and features that have been added in Dota2 and lately CS:GO. One can tranform lots of those into SC2 to make it a better game.
The one thing which is really worrying me is that the young generation of players seem to like easy-to-learn casual games. Games like Call of Duty, League of Legends, Hearthstone or the newest in the line Heroes of the Storm are the most popular. I grew up with SC:BW and I still love it, but nowadays it seems that most people (= the mass market) don't like stressful games where you have to think and control lots of stuff at the same time. LotV won't save "eSports" or the RTS genre, it just lacks a lot of attention. It doesn't make RTS attractive for the mass.
Dreamhack now kicking out SC2 makes me really sad. It reminds me of the World Cyber Games (WCG), once the best international tourney for SC:BW which has evolved to a shadow of it's old self.
Exactly. Its nothing to do with Blizzard design decisions, if in 98 BW came out and LoL came out there would be no talk about BW and probably no SC2 at all. Even if Blizzard imported every BW fan boy suggestion, the game would have lost out out to MOBAs anyway. Its just unfortunate that fans dont enjoy RTS as a genre anymore and prefer MOBAs -- I personally dont understand their popularity or the popularity of cardstone but I am capable of accepting the sheer numbers you see for streamed games.
There is no reason to think that at all imo.
Compare BW and CS 1.6 relative success and SC2 and CS:GO's relative success. CS:GO is basically the same game as 1.6 while sc2 is completely different. While CS is stil massively popular, starcraft is now a pretty marginal game. What does this tell us? I'd say it is a sign that the market (or the gamers preferences) hasn't changed much.
I don't follow this closely, but with the rising popularity of the BW streams and tournaments it looks like the old game could maybe even become more popular than SC2 again - that also should indicate that there is more problems with the game than the genre. We just need a better game.
BW stream numbers are good, but aren't most of those views in Korea where it was absolutely huge? If BW was seeing a large migration of people outside of Korea I'd concede the point. I do personally think BW is a better eSport to watch mind.
On March 10 2015 17:17 d00p wrote: Minecraft was developed in Sweden right? And DH is a Swedish organisation? Still doesn't make any sense though.
What doesn't make sense? SC2 didn't fit the budget, it wasn't worth to run and so they decided to do something different. It's literally how event business works, it isn't charity.
The best thing to come out of this is the showcase of how utterly ungrateful and unintelligent the SC2 fans are. Dreamhack have already stated that SC2 is in the backseat for 2015 and when it isn't there for a stop people go berserk and call Dreamhack out for it.
After this thread I can just hope there won't ever be any more SC2 at Dreamhack at all.
What is showcased? A 15 page thread on teamliquid? Grow up.
On March 10 2015 01:53 SharkStarcraft wrote: WOW MINECRAFT REALLY rip esports seriously
Blizzard killed eSports, with a SC2 that has not enough quality, how it should be, how SC and WC3 had in the past.
Well, it's not just Blizzard who is messing it up. I agree, there is lots of room for improvement. Just look at all eSports functions and features that have been added in Dota2 and lately CS:GO. One can tranform lots of those into SC2 to make it a better game.
The one thing which is really worrying me is that the young generation of players seem to like easy-to-learn casual games. Games like Call of Duty, League of Legends, Hearthstone or the newest in the line Heroes of the Storm are the most popular. I grew up with SC:BW and I still love it, but nowadays it seems that most people (= the mass market) don't like stressful games where you have to think and control lots of stuff at the same time. LotV won't save "eSports" or the RTS genre, it just lacks a lot of attention. It doesn't make RTS attractive for the mass.
Dreamhack now kicking out SC2 makes me really sad. It reminds me of the World Cyber Games (WCG), once the best international tourney for SC:BW which has evolved to a shadow of it's old self.
Exactly. Its nothing to do with Blizzard design decisions, if in 98 BW came out and LoL came out there would be no talk about BW and probably no SC2 at all. Even if Blizzard imported every BW fan boy suggestion, the game would have lost out out to MOBAs anyway. Its just unfortunate that fans dont enjoy RTS as a genre anymore and prefer MOBAs -- I personally dont understand their popularity or the popularity of cardstone but I am capable of accepting the sheer numbers you see for streamed games.
There is no reason to think that at all imo.
Compare BW and CS 1.6 relative success and SC2 and CS:GO's relative success. CS:GO is basically the same game as 1.6 while sc2 is completely different. While CS is stil massively popular, starcraft is now a pretty marginal game. What does this tell us? I'd say it is a sign that the market (or the gamers preferences) hasn't changed much.
I don't follow this closely, but with the rising popularity of the BW streams and tournaments it looks like the old game could maybe even become more popular than SC2 again - that also should indicate that there is more problems with the game than the genre. We just need a better game.
BW stream numbers are good, but aren't most of those views in Korea where it was absolutely huge? If BW was seeing a large migration of people outside of Korea I'd concede the point. I do personally think BW is a better eSport to watch mind.
Agreed. Surprised there has not been any developers in Korea come out with some RTS titles as of yet. They seem to only produce MMO's sadly..
On March 10 2015 01:53 SharkStarcraft wrote: WOW MINECRAFT REALLY rip esports seriously
Blizzard killed eSports, with a SC2 that has not enough quality, how it should be, how SC and WC3 had in the past.
Well, it's not just Blizzard who is messing it up. I agree, there is lots of room for improvement. Just look at all eSports functions and features that have been added in Dota2 and lately CS:GO. One can tranform lots of those into SC2 to make it a better game.
The one thing which is really worrying me is that the young generation of players seem to like easy-to-learn casual games. Games like Call of Duty, League of Legends, Hearthstone or the newest in the line Heroes of the Storm are the most popular. I grew up with SC:BW and I still love it, but nowadays it seems that most people (= the mass market) don't like stressful games where you have to think and control lots of stuff at the same time. LotV won't save "eSports" or the RTS genre, it just lacks a lot of attention. It doesn't make RTS attractive for the mass.
Dreamhack now kicking out SC2 makes me really sad. It reminds me of the World Cyber Games (WCG), once the best international tourney for SC:BW which has evolved to a shadow of it's old self.
Exactly. Its nothing to do with Blizzard design decisions, if in 98 BW came out and LoL came out there would be no talk about BW and probably no SC2 at all. Even if Blizzard imported every BW fan boy suggestion, the game would have lost out out to MOBAs anyway. Its just unfortunate that fans dont enjoy RTS as a genre anymore and prefer MOBAs -- I personally dont understand their popularity or the popularity of cardstone but I am capable of accepting the sheer numbers you see for streamed games.
You can't make that statement. Gaming culture and technology was totally different in the 90s and 2000s. There wouldn't be any MoBa without RTS, online-gaming was tiny back then and free to play was not a trend and accepted as a business model. Time is not reversible and not exchangable as it is interconntected. That's like saying, if Carthago had tanks back in the days, there would never have been a Roman Empire. lol.
On a different note, of course SC2 could have been improved and updated to today's gaming culture. It should have been released in the first place as free-to-play game, heavily team-play-centered and with more room for creativity and less room for cheese and early-game boringness. But again, it wasn't, time is not reversible and we are here, with SC2 tourneys dwindeling.
well it was my least favorite dh anyways, as long as sweden keeps it its fine, its not like we see not enough sc2 ^^ wcs is fine with LotV everything will get a boost again
On March 10 2015 01:53 SharkStarcraft wrote: WOW MINECRAFT REALLY rip esports seriously
Blizzard killed eSports, with a SC2 that has not enough quality, how it should be, how SC and WC3 had in the past.
Well, it's not just Blizzard who is messing it up. I agree, there is lots of room for improvement. Just look at all eSports functions and features that have been added in Dota2 and lately CS:GO. One can tranform lots of those into SC2 to make it a better game.
The one thing which is really worrying me is that the young generation of players seem to like easy-to-learn casual games. Games like Call of Duty, League of Legends, Hearthstone or the newest in the line Heroes of the Storm are the most popular. I grew up with SC:BW and I still love it, but nowadays it seems that most people (= the mass market) don't like stressful games where you have to think and control lots of stuff at the same time. LotV won't save "eSports" or the RTS genre, it just lacks a lot of attention. It doesn't make RTS attractive for the mass.
Dreamhack now kicking out SC2 makes me really sad. It reminds me of the World Cyber Games (WCG), once the best international tourney for SC:BW which has evolved to a shadow of it's old self.
Exactly. Its nothing to do with Blizzard design decisions, if in 98 BW came out and LoL came out there would be no talk about BW and probably no SC2 at all. Even if Blizzard imported every BW fan boy suggestion, the game would have lost out out to MOBAs anyway. Its just unfortunate that fans dont enjoy RTS as a genre anymore and prefer MOBAs -- I personally dont understand their popularity or the popularity of cardstone but I am capable of accepting the sheer numbers you see for streamed games.
You can't make that statement. Gaming culture and technology was totally different in the 90s and 2000s. There wouldn't be any MoBa without RTS, online-gaming was tiny back then and free to play was not a trend and accepted as a business model. Time is not reversible and not exchangable as it is interconntected. That's like saying, if Carthago had tanks back in the days, there would never have been a Roman Empire. lol.
On a different note, of course SC2 could have been improved and updated to today's gaming culture. It should have been released in the first place as free-to-play game, heavily team-play-centered and with more room for creativity and less room for cheese and early-game boringness. But again, it wasn't, time is not reversible and we are here, with SC2 tourneys dwindeling.
but then it would not be sc2 ^^ sc2 is NOT a team game, damn i hate team games xD
People have very selective memories. SC2 used to be huge, SC2 was one of the first games that gained traction on platforms like Twitch, SC2 paved the way for the much more accessible eSports scene we now see.
The likes of LoL and to a lesser extent CS:GO owe a lot to the trail that SC2 blazed.
Blizzard could be more on the ball in certain respects, but they can't just piss away more and more money to maintain SC2 as an eSport.
DH Bucharest is non SC2 event, there are 2xDH in Romania, and only 1 has SC2 in it. This year will be the one from Cluj. soooooooo DH Cluj will host the SC2 event. Last year was the same, 2 DH events in Romania and only one had SC2 in it.
Wow, after reading this I just decided, I never want to have to do anything with DH again, neither go there, nor watch the stream. I was away some time, so I didnt't know this. I take everything back when defending DH in this thread.
On March 10 2015 00:10 The_Red_Viper wrote: As long as there is sc2 in korea i don't care too much tbh.
Without a foreign scene to gather new viewership and provide koreans with prizemoney, how do you think the SC2 scene in korean will work out?
I am not sure why you quote me there. I say it again, as long as there is korean sc2 i don't care about foreign events too much. If the lack of foreign events would prevent me from watching korean sc2 i would care. We both know nothing about the requirements for korean sc2 to be viable, so it's rather pointless to speculate.
On March 10 2015 21:23 Caladan wrote: Wow, after reading this I just decided, I never want to have to do anything with DH again, neither go there, nor watch the stream. I was away some time, so I didnt't know this. I take everything back when defending DH in this thread.
Just wow, completely blows my mind. o.O
How about you try to learn about the two sides of a story?^^
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
I agree with you for once (not on the GOM thing though). People are complaining that DH is keeping its involvement in SC2 at the same level. That's just beyond absurdity.
To be fair, in this thread there are more complaints about the sc2 fanbase and the percieved hatred towards Dreamhack than actual hatred towards DH. Most of us are just a bit confused since theres no official statement about the matter and what it means (if it means anything at all) for sc2 and dreamhack in the future.
How does minecraft even work as an Esport? Do judges grade the prettiest houses?
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
I agree with you for once (not on the GOM thing though). People are complaining that DH is keeping its involvement in SC2 at the same level. That's just beyond absurdity.
To be fair, in this thread there are more complaints about the sc2 fanbase and the percieved hatred towards Dreamhack than actual hatred towards DH. Most of us are just a bit confused since theres no official statement about the matter and what it means (if it means anything at all) for sc2 and dreamhack in the future.
How does minecraft even work as an Esport? Do judges grade the prettiest houses?
I guess you missed this
On March 10 2015 21:12 jarod wrote: DH Bucharest is non SC2 event, there are 2xDH in Romania, and only 1 has SC2 in it. This year will be the one from Cluj. soooooooo DH Cluj will host the SC2 event. Last year was the same, 2 DH events in Romania and only one had SC2 in it.
As well as the fact that DH:France was created, granting an additional SC2 DH event. What I see in this thread is people pitchforking for the sake of pitchforking, without trying to use their brains much. There are no reasons to be "a bit confused" since after firing Ohlen, DH released a statement saying that SC2 won't be the main game of DH events anymore, but will still be present at most DH events, just like last year. And your disdain towards Minecraft as a competitive game, a disdain that is, sadly, widely found in this thread, is a shame and probably partly why the SC2 scene is often seen by outsiders as "elitist" and "contemptuous". Can't we accept the fact that other games than SC2 exist and can be played competitively?
On March 10 2015 00:48 Circumstance wrote: I think I said that this when the GOM stream quality thing first became a topic of discussion, but it's worth repeating now: Every time the SC2 community loses some small convenience, they go out of their way, practically bend over backwards, to demonstrate why they didn't deserve it. And between attacking DH for daring to experiment with their lineup while not decreasing its support of SC2 in any way and bashing completely separate games because of its perceived (and ONLY perceived) threat posed to SC2's involvement, the community has proven that statement right once again. (And that's on the more level-headed website. I can only imagine what Reddit's saying at this point.)
I agree with you for once (not on the GOM thing though). People are complaining that DH is keeping its involvement in SC2 at the same level. That's just beyond absurdity.
To be fair, in this thread there are more complaints about the sc2 fanbase and the percieved hatred towards Dreamhack than actual hatred towards DH. Most of us are just a bit confused since theres no official statement about the matter and what it means (if it means anything at all) for sc2 and dreamhack in the future.
How does minecraft even work as an Esport? Do judges grade the prettiest houses?
On March 10 2015 21:12 jarod wrote: DH Bucharest is non SC2 event, there are 2xDH in Romania, and only 1 has SC2 in it. This year will be the one from Cluj. soooooooo DH Cluj will host the SC2 event. Last year was the same, 2 DH events in Romania and only one had SC2 in it.
As well as the fact that DH:France was created, granting an additional SC2 DH event. What I see in this thread is people pitchforking for the sake of pitchforking, without trying to use their brains much. There are no reasons to be "a bit confused" since after firing Ohlen, DH released a statement saying that SC2 won't be the main game of DH events anymore, but will still be present at most DH events, just like last year. And your disdain towards Minecraft as a competitive game, a disdain that is, sadly, widely found in this thread, is a shame and probably partly why the SC2 scene is often seen by outsiders as "elitist" and "contemptuous". Can't we accept the fact that other games than SC2 exist and can be played competitively?
Oh we all know about the "no longer the main game" statement, thats not what I was concerned about, however your first quote helps setting things straight. As far as my "disdain towards minecraft" goes, Im genuinly curious how a game, that in my eyes is as competitive as the Sims, would work as an esport.
You know whats wrong with the sc2 community? Theres so much internal hate based on assumptions. "Oh youre not happy about sc2 not being featured? Obviously you dont understand the concept of money and companies" "So you dont personally like <insert game x here> please stop with the insane elitism" Disclaimer: I dont dislike minecraft, im genuinly curious as how it would work as an esport. As you can see in this thread, or every thread on reddit/starcraft, hating on the community by being a part of the community is appearently something popular. Its like were that kid who got bullied and abused so much that he started to bully himself just to have others laugh with him for once.
Also much of the 'rage' could be easily dissipated with some kind of press release or communication.
The Ohlen scenario aside, Dreamhack's lack of clarity recently has been piss poor at times, similarly to KeSPa and the ST-Yoe DQ. Much of the community's ire is formed on speculation that could easily be quashed.
As I was thinking and already said, this is just ridiculous. MineCraft competitive... brave new world.
On March 10 2015 21:23 Caladan wrote: Wow, after reading this I just decided, I never want to have to do anything with DH again, neither go there, nor watch the stream. I was away some time, so I didnt't know this. I take everything back when defending DH in this thread.
from the DH newsletter, that I just received, not sure if this info is already available somewhere else
Razer, EIZO, and HyperX are proud to join DreamHack in announcing the DreamHack Open 2015 tour, which will visit two new countries and, for the first time ever, feature two official titles: StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm and Counter-Strike: Global Offensive. [...] DreamHack Open has featured StarCraft II since the event first launched in 2012, and in 2015, Counter-Strike: Global Offensive is being added as the second official title. As a game that’s deeply ingrained in DreamHack’s eSports roots, it’s very exciting to be able to bring Counter-Strike on tour as an official DreamHack Open title in Sweden, Spain, Romania, France and England. [...]
DREAMHACK OPEN 2015 STOPS DreamHack Tours – May 8-10 (8-10), Tours, France Counter-Strike: Global Offensive & StarCraft II
DreamHack Summer – June 13-16 (13-15), Jonkoping, Sweden Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
DreamHack Valencia – July 16-19 (16-18), Valencia, Spain Counter-Strike: Global Offensive & StarCraft II
DreamHack Stockholm – September 25-26 (25-26), Stockholm, Sweden Counter-Strike: Global Offensive & StarCraft II
DreamHack London – TBA, London, England Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
DreamHack Cluj-Napoca – October 30-November 1 (30-1), Cluj-Napoca, Romania Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
DreamHack Winter – November 26-29 (26-28), Jonkoping, Sweden Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
Razer, EIZO, and HyperX are proud to join DreamHack in announcing the DreamHack Open 2015 tour, which will visit two new countries and, for the first time ever, feature two official titles: StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm and Counter-Strike: Global Offensive. [...] DreamHack Open has featured StarCraft II since the event first launched in 2012, and in 2015, Counter-Strike: Global Offensive is being added as the second official title. As a game that’s deeply ingrained in DreamHack’s eSports roots, it’s very exciting to be able to bring Counter-Strike on tour as an official DreamHack Open title in Sweden, Spain, Romania, France and England. [...]
DREAMHACK OPEN 2015 STOPS DreamHack Tours – May 8-10 (8-10), Tours, France Counter-Strike: Global Offensive & StarCraft II
DreamHack Summer – June 13-16 (13-15), Jonkoping, Sweden Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
DreamHack Valencia – July 16-19 (16-18), Valencia, Spain Counter-Strike: Global Offensive & StarCraft II
DreamHack Stockholm – September 25-26 (25-26), Stockholm, Sweden Counter-Strike: Global Offensive & StarCraft II
DreamHack London – TBA, London, England Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
DreamHack Cluj-Napoca – October 30-November 1 (30-1), Cluj-Napoca, Romania Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
DreamHack Winter – November 26-29 (26-28), Jonkoping, Sweden Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
No sc2 at Dreamhack Summer, Winter, or London. To the people who were arguing that Dreamhack has kept the same amount of support for sc2 as last year because of DH Paris, I will field your arguments now
On March 11 2015 01:23 Rhythmic wrote: But hey,lets not talk about changing of game/balance designer. "Game is fine" - every sc2 caster in 2012-2014...now they stream HS or CS.
Exactly my thoughts for a while now
Though I will watch the CS>GO finals probably, it's fun and stuff, I liked it last time and it was better produced than SC2 content
On March 10 2015 02:44 BaneRiders wrote: I don't know if this, DH Bucharest skipping SC2 actually means anything in the long run, but my gut reaction is simple: This is terrible news for SC2 and Blizzard both. If DH the likes of it continues to not include SC2 in their events this year, where HoTS should be peaking really, in terms of providing good competitions that is, and LoTV is still far away from any kind of maturity, its like Blizzard completely missed the timing of the LoTV release. All the momentum the scene currently has would be wiped out, players dispersed etc. So yeah, this could be pretty bad.
Also, I don't quite understand the notion that "...as long as SC2 is going to continue in Korea I don't care...." For me, as a fan of SC2 and with a huge interest in the EU-scene, a SC2 only in Korea is something I wouldn't be able to follow, and to be honest, something that I wouldn't want to follow either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the biggest scene (not to be confused with the strongest scene) is EU, not KR. I wonder how long Blizzard would continue to maintain a game that is only played competitively in KR, when gaming all around the world is booming like nothing we have seen before? Probably 2 seconds?
That's what I call screaming before you feel the pain. Starcraft 2 will be at the DH which follows Bucharest, Tours, and will most likely be part of the next DHs too. IEM had a non-SC2 event last year, and no one went batshit over it, and IEM is still strongly supporting SC2 as of today.
I'll just keep on screaming if that is ok with you.
On March 10 2015 02:44 BaneRiders wrote: I don't know if this, DH Bucharest skipping SC2 actually means anything in the long run, but my gut reaction is simple: This is terrible news for SC2 and Blizzard both. If DH the likes of it continues to not include SC2 in their events this year, where HoTS should be peaking really, in terms of providing good competitions that is, and LoTV is still far away from any kind of maturity, its like Blizzard completely missed the timing of the LoTV release. All the momentum the scene currently has would be wiped out, players dispersed etc. So yeah, this could be pretty bad.
Also, I don't quite understand the notion that "...as long as SC2 is going to continue in Korea I don't care...." For me, as a fan of SC2 and with a huge interest in the EU-scene, a SC2 only in Korea is something I wouldn't be able to follow, and to be honest, something that I wouldn't want to follow either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the biggest scene (not to be confused with the strongest scene) is EU, not KR. I wonder how long Blizzard would continue to maintain a game that is only played competitively in KR, when gaming all around the world is booming like nothing we have seen before? Probably 2 seconds?
That's what I call screaming before you feel the pain. Starcraft 2 will be at the DH which follows Bucharest, Tours, and will most likely be part of the next DHs too. IEM had a non-SC2 event last year, and no one went batshit over it, and IEM is still strongly supporting SC2 as of today.
I'll just keep on screaming if that is ok with you.
Well now that we are feeling the pain we can scream as much as you want (:
On March 10 2015 02:44 BaneRiders wrote: I don't know if this, DH Bucharest skipping SC2 actually means anything in the long run, but my gut reaction is simple: This is terrible news for SC2 and Blizzard both. If DH the likes of it continues to not include SC2 in their events this year, where HoTS should be peaking really, in terms of providing good competitions that is, and LoTV is still far away from any kind of maturity, its like Blizzard completely missed the timing of the LoTV release. All the momentum the scene currently has would be wiped out, players dispersed etc. So yeah, this could be pretty bad.
Also, I don't quite understand the notion that "...as long as SC2 is going to continue in Korea I don't care...." For me, as a fan of SC2 and with a huge interest in the EU-scene, a SC2 only in Korea is something I wouldn't be able to follow, and to be honest, something that I wouldn't want to follow either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the biggest scene (not to be confused with the strongest scene) is EU, not KR. I wonder how long Blizzard would continue to maintain a game that is only played competitively in KR, when gaming all around the world is booming like nothing we have seen before? Probably 2 seconds?
That's what I call screaming before you feel the pain. Starcraft 2 will be at the DH which follows Bucharest, Tours, and will most likely be part of the next DHs too. IEM had a non-SC2 event last year, and no one went batshit over it, and IEM is still strongly supporting SC2 as of today.
I'll just keep on screaming if that is ok with you.
Well now that we are feeling the pain we can scream as much as you want (:
Thank you very much!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGRRRRGGGHHH! Dang you DH, that hurt! Don't do it again.
I think u ppl should be more than happy that it's been as huge as it has been through some years now, i mean it's absolutely not a mainstreamgame, it's still not dead and there will come an expansion also wich will attract new and old progamers. Learn to love all kind of esports instead of just sc2, it will help u a lot to stay happy in situations like these ;D
A smaller, but more dedicated and knowledgable scene has its advantages for sure. There's just a happy medium between that and an audience big enough to keep the tournament scene alive
That's just how things are. In the world championship series you have your europeans and americans competing, and then the few koreans that slip through somehow still dominate. Where is the sense in hyping up foreign players, all the hosts and casters must feel stupid after a while. LOL international tournaments. Upsets. Sc2 a great game, but how genuine is the support if representatives from your country never win anything. It just goes against logic, except for the viewers. Oh yes this guy is great, but he has no chance against korean XY. Yeah that's great, just like women football is great.
On March 11 2015 11:27 plotspot wrote: That's just how things are. In the world championship series you have your europeans and americans competing, and then the few koreans that slip through somehow still dominate. Where is the sense in hyping up foreign players, all the hosts and casters must feel stupid after a while. LOL international tournaments. Upsets. Sc2 a great game, but how genuine is the support if representatives from your country never win anything. It just goes against logic, except for the viewers. Oh yes this guy is great, but he has no chance against korean XY. Yeah that's great, just like women football is great.
Bunny just 2-0 Soulkey in Fragbite, only losing 1 unit in 1 of the games. Flawless victories.
Besides, I don't see how foreigner skill relates to DH. I assume more important are viewers and ticket sales.
On March 11 2015 11:27 plotspot wrote: That's just how things are. In the world championship series you have your europeans and americans competing, and then the few koreans that slip through somehow still dominate. Where is the sense in hyping up foreign players, all the hosts and casters must feel stupid after a while. LOL international tournaments. Upsets. Sc2 a great game, but how genuine is the support if representatives from your country never win anything. It just goes against logic, except for the viewers. Oh yes this guy is great, but he has no chance against korean XY. Yeah that's great, just like women football is great.
thats where casters need to sell skill and not patriotism. Ive always heavily disliked MLG because they always painted themselves into the "foreigner or we dont give a fuck" corner.
The fact that Dreamhack wont feature sc2 at their 2 biggest events, summer and winter, is a big deal and a shame.
Not suprising, the SC2 international competitive scene has been dead for a long time. Blizzard has also given up on HotS at this point - they're banking on LotV. Widow mines have been owning everything the past few months and everytime someone points it out on TL they get banned or warned. GSL has gone downhill since they decided that 240p is the new medium quality. One of the most prestigious SC2-only tournament is now THAT dead. At least I still have SPL so I'm happy.
Oh, and the fact that SC2 pros quit it to go back to BW and even go as far as making a BW tournament that has as many viewers as a comparable SC2 tournament.
Why are people sad? I personally think that DH finals have been pretty weak (and no, don't bring up Innovation vs TaeJa or Stardust vs Jaedong because those were in 2013), when compared to IEM. So, there's no loss to me here
On March 12 2015 10:32 hansonslee wrote: Why are people sad? I personally think that DH finals have been pretty weak (and no, don't bring up Innovation vs TaeJa or Stardust vs Jaedong because those were in 2013), when compared to IEM. So, there's no loss to me here
sacsri mc wasnt bad, and are you telling me ForGG v Life was weak?!
Games for 10 year olds over the best RTS game in history of eSports...
SC2 at the moment is a pretty bad game to watch in the opinion of many, including me. Blizzard did a really terrible job with HOTS, honestly WOL with some Infestor changes/nerfs would be far better to watch at the moment that any given HOTS game.
On March 11 2015 01:23 Rhythmic wrote: But hey,lets not talk about changing of game/balance designer. "Game is fine" - every sc2 caster in 2012-2014...now they stream HS or CS.
Well said, the game so badly needs a new design team it isn't even funny. The Herc? The Warhound? The fact that Photon Overcharge made it out of Beta? Could you really think of a more skilless ability than "Press F, click on Nexus and get a Cannon with huge range to defend your whole base"?
Games for 10 year olds over the best RTS game in history of eSports...
SC2 at the moment is a pretty bad game to watch in the opinion of many, including me. Blizzard did a really terrible job with HOTS, honestly WOL with some Infestor changes/nerfs would be far better to watch at the moment that any given HOTS game.
On March 11 2015 01:23 Rhythmic wrote: But hey,lets not talk about changing of game/balance designer. "Game is fine" - every sc2 caster in 2012-2014...now they stream HS or CS.
Well said, the game so badly needs a new design team it isn't even funny. The Herc? The Warhound? The fact that Photon Overcharge made it out of Beta? Could you really think of a more skilless ability than "Press F, click on Nexus and get a Cannon with huge range to defend your whole base"?
The photon overcharge came out with that range to defend against fast siege tank pushes since they were making sieged tanks faster and cheaper for terran and trying to push terran towards a mech composition (mines, faster tanks, hellbats...all factory centric). The 1-1-1 was still very hard for the protoss to defend before the MSC. The problem for protoss was how do they leave their base and not be stuck in an all in type of situation and it was a satisfactory solution and definitely saw more expansive strategies, but...
As you said WOL overall was a bit more fun although they needed to balance it as it was definitely out of balance in a way that maps couldn't fix. Terran was in an okay position I think...Protoss didn't have enough flexibility...Zerg had a late game composition that was too hard to interact with. The change to fungal was pretty good (it was so much better than psionic storm for instance) but I think part of the problem was the brood lord free unit machine and its sad, but they pretty much just gave zerg a better free unit machine. I thought StarCraft vanilla was better than Broodwar outside of the issue of air units stacking though which they fixed in 1.03 I think.
I would like to see them try to get the game to be more fluid in LotV. I just remember how good those two games between Parting and MKP were in the team league finals and would love to see all the matches look fast paced and spread out like that rather than just seeing all ins and swarm hosts. Parting vs MMA had 1 or 2 games that were pretty good, but the rest were pretty bad. 8(
On March 12 2015 10:32 hansonslee wrote: Why are people sad? I personally think that DH finals have been pretty weak (and no, don't bring up Innovation vs TaeJa or Stardust vs Jaedong because those were in 2013), when compared to IEM. So, there's no loss to me here
sacsri mc wasnt bad, and are you telling me ForGG v Life was weak?!
Well... I'll give you that one bc of ForGG's tears after his win, but it's still nothing compared to TaeJa vs Solar, Life vs Maru, etc.
not surprised sc2 was dropped. people should be more surprised that sc2 hasn't been dropped from all tournaments yet, considering that lol, dota and csgo draw more than 5 times more interest at streams and other medias. sc2 is a cool game with some great players, but it is in fact a small game. there's nothing bad in being a small game, but this seems to be a pretty general misconception among fans.
The article needs more love. It's self-explanatory.
i'll give this article some love and create this post as a tribute to Richard Garner...
"We evaluated all possible scenarios, but in the end we're just happy that our sponsors supported us to do two game titles and continue support StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm tournaments in 2015. It's the game that built a lot what DreamHack is in eSports today and we will continue support the community many years to come."
Remember Frank Pierce promised that SC2 would be a 10 year experiment with eSports. 5 years to go.
SC2 has hit the ceiling for its growth in terms of a spectator sport. We can point out many reasons for it, but essentially what we are seeing today with the viewership numbers is the direct result of the biggest flaw in SC2: the game just does not have the charm to attract many casual players to keep playing the game.
The launching of LoTV will regain the viewership numbers by the virtue of it being a brand new game. However, unless the game's core issues are addressed - elements which attract casual players, we are going to have this same discussion again in 2-3 years.
On March 13 2015 08:59 jellyjello wrote: SC2 has hit the ceiling for its growth in terms of a spectator sport. We can point out many reasons for it, but essentially what we are seeing today with the viewership numbers is the direct result of the biggest flaw in SC2: the game just does not have the charm to attract many casual players to keep playing the game.
Isn't it slowly growing in Korea? NSSL + Proleague bigger than ever...?
On March 13 2015 08:59 jellyjello wrote: SC2 has hit the ceiling for its growth in terms of a spectator sport. We can point out many reasons for it, but essentially what we are seeing today with the viewership numbers is the direct result of the biggest flaw in SC2: the game just does not have the charm to attract many casual players to keep playing the game.
Isn't it slowly growing in Korea? NSSL + Proleague bigger than ever...?
who is doing all that supporting. I haven't seen a single sc2 stream in the biggest streaminf site afreeca. i see bw going for like 40k viewership on it. Pc bang sc2 is also abysmal. sc2 is almost irrelevant among korean youths. its like oh flash lost 3x in a row? hah.. can you provide me some ratings on sc2 in korea because in korea no one really cares bout sc2. like seriously No news on it on naver daum nate. i see sonic sbenu featured on naver
"At DreamHack Winter 2014: The Day Blizzard announce when Legacy of Void will be released we'll take that decision," said Lyckedal. "We're super-excited about the new game, and believe it will play a fundamental role in our eSports strategy our coming years."
So people can stop bitching about DreamHack not "caring" about SC2 anymore
thanks for linking that - it gives some great insight into the DH year ahead!
With a lot of the fan favorites taking a break until LotV, I can understand why major tournaments are eager to do that same. You can't blame anyone for taking a breather from SC atm. They will have a busy schedule after release.
"At DreamHack Winter 2014: The Day Blizzard announce when Legacy of Void will be released we'll take that decision," said Lyckedal. "We're super-excited about the new game, and believe it will play a fundamental role in our eSports strategy our coming years."
So people can stop bitching about DreamHack not "caring" about SC2 anymore
That can be interpreted to being a diplomatic way of saying if the LoTV release is good, then it is in, but until then SC2 is not playing a fundamental role in their eSports strategy. And yeah... that is what we are seeing right now, isn't it?
On March 13 2015 08:59 jellyjello wrote: SC2 has hit the ceiling for its growth in terms of a spectator sport. We can point out many reasons for it, but essentially what we are seeing today with the viewership numbers is the direct result of the biggest flaw in SC2: the game just does not have the charm to attract many casual players to keep playing the game.
The launching of LoTV will regain the viewership numbers by the virtue of it being a brand new game. However, unless the game's core issues are addressed - elements which attract casual players, we are going to have this same discussion again in 2-3 years.
I feel that have less to do with the flaws of the game and more about the lower appeal of the type of game it is. I don't believe any base building rts will manage to fulfill those criteria's unless they completely compromise what makes them fun to play for a competitive player.
On March 13 2015 08:59 jellyjello wrote: SC2 has hit the ceiling for its growth in terms of a spectator sport. We can point out many reasons for it, but essentially what we are seeing today with the viewership numbers is the direct result of the biggest flaw in SC2: the game just does not have the charm to attract many casual players to keep playing the game.
The launching of LoTV will regain the viewership numbers by the virtue of it being a brand new game. However, unless the game's core issues are addressed - elements which attract casual players, we are going to have this same discussion again in 2-3 years.
I feel that have less to do with the flaws of the game and more about the lower appeal of the type of game it is. I don't believe any base building rts will manage to fulfill those criteria's unless they completely compromise what makes them fun to play for a competitive player.
Exactly. The ESL csgo stream at the moment of writing this has 300k viewers, and the arena is stacked with people chanting for the teams. The reasons for this kind of popularity have nothing to do with small things like balance, builds or other in game nuances, and more to do with the fact the game is dominated by westerners, played by teams instead of individuals, easy to start to play as a casual and as an e-sport very action packed and easy to follow.
Unless lotv changes the fact that sc2 is a base building rts then the status quo won't change.
I feel that have less to do with the flaws of the game and more about the lower appeal of the type of game it is. I don't believe any base building rts will manage to fulfill those criteria's unless they completely compromise what makes them fun to play for a competitive player.
I feel that have less to do with the flaws of the game and more about the lower appeal of the type of game it is. I don't believe any base building rts will manage to fulfill those criteria's unless they completely compromise what makes them fun to play for a competitive player.
counterexample: wc3 in china
Counter example: YYF's and Burning's dota 2 streams on that 'chinese twitch' site have regularly about a million viewers on them. Now that's 'china popular' for you.
I can't say I'm surprised. Watching StarCraft2 has become completely boring to me. The only reason I still watch sometimes is to hear Tasteless/Artosis banter
I feel that have less to do with the flaws of the game and more about the lower appeal of the type of game it is. I don't believe any base building rts will manage to fulfill those criteria's unless they completely compromise what makes them fun to play for a competitive player.
counterexample: wc3 in china
Are you sure high numbers relating to this isn't directly because there are so many viewers in China? Do the numbers for wc3 compete with the numbers for other popular games, like the poster above me just brought up?
I am of the opinion, that it's not the game itself, but the players that play it. Sorry to say this, but the game had plenty of views when we had more non-koreans doing well. The fact is, I am not going to watch a tournament full of robot no personality koreans, I just have no interest in that. There is no storyline for me to invest in.
I haven't watched IEM Katowice at all, and why would I? Who should I cheer for? Where are Snute, Stephano, Naniwa? I don't care about Zest and Dark crushing everyone. If I wanted to watch the GSL, I would have watched, but I don't.
When they make tournaments worth watching, with players that we can care for, then they can expect high views.
Sorry for all the Korean fans here, but that's just me. I was watching the most SC2 when Stephano was active and beasting, then when he quit I tried focusing on others, but little by little all non koreans started vanishing from tournaments. And today we have a tournament like IEM Katowice, hosted in Europe with all Korean lineup. Good luck making people watch that instead of CS:GO. Why would they?
On March 15 2015 19:35 Kaewins wrote: I am of the opinion, that it's not the game itself, but the players that play it. Sorry to say this, but the game had plenty of views when we had more non-koreans doing well. The fact is, I am not going to watch a tournament full of robot no personality koreans, I just have no interest in that. There is no storyline for me to invest in.
I haven't watched IEM Katowice at all, and why would I? Who should I cheer for? Where are Snute, Stephano, Naniwa? I don't care about Zest and Dark crushing everyone. If I wanted to watch the GSL, I would have watched, but I don't.
When they make tournaments worth watching, with players that we can care for, then they can expect high views.
Sorry for all the Korean fans here, but that's just me. I was watching the most SC2 when Stephano was active and beasting, then when he quit I tried focusing on others, but little by little all non koreans started vanishing from tournaments. And today we have a tournament like IEM Katowice, hosted in Europe with all Korean lineup. Good luck making people watch that instead of CS:GO. Why would they?
Why would you care so match about the nationality of who is playing? If the games are entertaining to you, then you watch it, otherwise you don't. During tournaments, you get to have players interacting only 10% of the time anyway, 3 questions interviews to the winner and that's about it. You can't say that since in 2012 there were more viewers and there were more foreigners, then the fact that there were more foreigners implies that there were more viewers. Just look at when Naniwa played his WCS group. It was the best foreigner storyline in a long time, the former foreign hope who comes back after almost a year to claim back his throne in an offline event, and how were viewer numbers? They went from 35k to 45k. Sure, it's an increase, but it's still insignificant compared to games like CS:GO or LoL.
I don't know how you are so convinced that everyone thinks the same as you do. Sorry to say it, this doesn't have anything to do with sc2's declining viewer numbers. But yeah, we should probably kill all the koreans or give them an handicap in-game, maybe this would solve all SC2's problems.
On March 15 2015 19:35 Kaewins wrote: I am of the opinion, that it's not the game itself, but the players that play it. Sorry to say this, but the game had plenty of views when we had more non-koreans doing well. The fact is, I am not going to watch a tournament full of robot no personality koreans, I just have no interest in that. There is no storyline for me to invest in.
I haven't watched IEM Katowice at all, and why would I? Who should I cheer for? Where are Snute, Stephano, Naniwa? I don't care about Zest and Dark crushing everyone. If I wanted to watch the GSL, I would have watched, but I don't.
When they make tournaments worth watching, with players that we can care for, then they can expect high views.
Sorry for all the Korean fans here, but that's just me. I was watching the most SC2 when Stephano was active and beasting, then when he quit I tried focusing on others, but little by little all non koreans started vanishing from tournaments. And today we have a tournament like IEM Katowice, hosted in Europe with all Korean lineup. Good luck making people watch that instead of CS:GO. Why would they?
Yet all foreigner only tournaments get less views than ones with Korean's in it.
On March 13 2015 08:59 jellyjello wrote: SC2 has hit the ceiling for its growth in terms of a spectator sport. We can point out many reasons for it, but essentially what we are seeing today with the viewership numbers is the direct result of the biggest flaw in SC2: the game just does not have the charm to attract many casual players to keep playing the game.
The launching of LoTV will regain the viewership numbers by the virtue of it being a brand new game. However, unless the game's core issues are addressed - elements which attract casual players, we are going to have this same discussion again in 2-3 years.
I feel that have less to do with the flaws of the game and more about the lower appeal of the type of game it is. I don't believe any base building rts will manage to fulfill those criteria's unless they completely compromise what makes them fun to play for a competitive player.
Exactly. The ESL csgo stream at the moment of writing this has 300k viewers, and the arena is stacked with people chanting for the teams. The reasons for this kind of popularity have nothing to do with small things like balance, builds or other in game nuances, and more to do with the fact the game is dominated by westerners, played by teams instead of individuals, easy to start to play as a casual and as an e-sport very action packed and easy to follow.
Unless lotv changes the fact that sc2 is a base building rts then the status quo won't change.
Basically CS is a simple, easy to understand game with a high skillcap that offers a social experience and is fun for casuals and hardcore gamers. Not surprising that its an esport success. You don't even need to really "understand" the game to be entertained. I can look at the score and see who is winning and when someone is able to 1v3'ing the enemy team, I get super excited as well.
SC2 being dropped from Dreamhack is one thing, which i can fully understand due to its limited appeal these days, but to be replaced by Minecraft ....yikes !!!!. i got to say that's a new low
On March 15 2015 19:35 Kaewins wrote: I am of the opinion, that it's not the game itself, but the players that play it. Sorry to say this, but the game had plenty of views when we had more non-koreans doing well. The fact is, I am not going to watch a tournament full of robot no personality koreans, I just have no interest in that. There is no storyline for me to invest in.
I haven't watched IEM Katowice at all, and why would I? Who should I cheer for? Where are Snute, Stephano, Naniwa? I don't care about Zest and Dark crushing everyone. If I wanted to watch the GSL, I would have watched, but I don't.
When they make tournaments worth watching, with players that we can care for, then they can expect high views.
Sorry for all the Korean fans here, but that's just me. I was watching the most SC2 when Stephano was active and beasting, then when he quit I tried focusing on others, but little by little all non koreans started vanishing from tournaments. And today we have a tournament like IEM Katowice, hosted in Europe with all Korean lineup. Good luck making people watch that instead of CS:GO. Why would they?
Why would you care so match about the nationality of who is playing? If the games are entertaining to you, then you watch it, otherwise you don't. During tournaments, you get to have players interacting only 10% of the time anyway, 3 questions interviews to the winner and that's about it. You can't say that since in 2012 there were more viewers and there were more foreigners, then the fact that there were more foreigners implies that there were more viewers. Just look at when Naniwa played his WCS group. It was the best foreigner storyline in a long time, the former foreign hope who comes back after almost a year to claim back his throne in an offline event, and how were viewer numbers? They went from 35k to 45k. Sure, it's an increase, but it's still insignificant compared to games like CS:GO or LoL.
I don't know how you are so convinced that everyone thinks the same as you do. Sorry to say it, this doesn't have anything to do with sc2's declining viewer numbers. But yeah, we should probably kill all the koreans or give them an handicap in-game, maybe this would solve all SC2's problems.
I am not exactly convinced, but I think it's a big part of the reason. I don't care if the game is fun to watch, I can have fun in other ways. This is an eSport and I need someone to cheer for, and Koreans ain't those people.
Do you think I'd watch the CS:GO finals if it weren't Fnatic vs NiP? I don't care how good the teams are, I watch the teams I like and respect. Now switching to SC2, I have less and less reason to watch. The last tourneys I enjoyed were the ones where Snute and Scarlett had a deep run with chances of winning, everything else has been Korean dominated and completely unwatchable as I don't care about those players. It doesn't matter to me if Dark or Zest wins, it's just another Korean to me. And many people I know of, have a hard time watching SC2, not because the game is so complicated, but because all they see is Koreans. Even LoL, that is so severely dominated by Koreans, isn't that void of foreign competition.
On March 13 2015 08:59 jellyjello wrote: SC2 has hit the ceiling for its growth in terms of a spectator sport. We can point out many reasons for it, but essentially what we are seeing today with the viewership numbers is the direct result of the biggest flaw in SC2: the game just does not have the charm to attract many casual players to keep playing the game.
The launching of LoTV will regain the viewership numbers by the virtue of it being a brand new game. However, unless the game's core issues are addressed - elements which attract casual players, we are going to have this same discussion again in 2-3 years.
I feel that have less to do with the flaws of the game and more about the lower appeal of the type of game it is. I don't believe any base building rts will manage to fulfill those criteria's unless they completely compromise what makes them fun to play for a competitive player.
You don't try to compete with other games for viewership. We are not comparing game A vs game B; that is not the point here. What we all need to understand is that for SC2 to take the next step in popularity and viewership numbers, the game _has_to_be played by casual players more often, period.
The core design problems with the game makes it too difficult for new people to jump in and start playing the game right away. There is the element of steep learning curve, too complicated strategies, and lack of adequate social environment...etc. The game relies too much on the concept of rock paper scissors, while the battles doesn't last long enough for casual players to be drawn in. Think about it: would someone who is curious about SC2 but has zero knowledge about RTS find this game fun to play after trying it out a few times? A few may, but chances are that the majority would not, as proven since the launching of the SC2: Wings of Liberty.
Sadly SC2 viewership as you mention isn't even in the same ballpark. CS:GO just got 600k viewers on twitch and 1million+ total. It doesn't mean SC2 isn't a good game, or that CS:GO is a better game, but it does mean it's a different game with a much wider appeal and is better suited for e-sports.
But I do agree with one of the previous posters that the fact that if you're not korean you will never win a major event in SC2 has a huge effect. It's demoralizing, and all the deniers are simply flat out wrong. The same thing applies to traditional sports too. When your country beats all odds and does well at some international event there's a huge surge of popularity in the sport in that country and new people start playing it. They realise they have a chance, and they identify with their compatriots. Robot asians who don't even speak english are impossible to identify with as a westerner. It becomes their game, not ours.
On March 16 2015 00:37 xyzz wrote: Sadly SC2 viewership as you mention isn't even in the same ballpark. CS:GO just got 600k viewers on twitch and 1million+ total. It doesn't mean SC2 isn't a good game, or that CS:GO is a better game, but it does mean it's a different game with a much wider appeal and is better suited for e-sports.
But I do agree with one of the previous posters that the fact that if you're not korean you will never win a major event in SC2 has a huge effect. It's demoralizing, and all the deniers are simply flat out wrong. The same thing applies to traditional sports too. When your country beats all odds and does well at some international event there's a huge surge of popularity in the sport in that country and new people start playing it. They realise they have a chance, and they identify with their compatriots. Robot asians who don't even speak english are impossible to identify with as a westerner. It becomes their game, not ours.
I don't think it would be much better regardless of nationality if it's one country that dominates completely.
On March 16 2015 00:37 xyzz wrote: Sadly SC2 viewership as you mention isn't even in the same ballpark. CS:GO just got 600k viewers on twitch and 1million+ total. It doesn't mean SC2 isn't a good game, or that CS:GO is a better game, but it does mean it's a different game with a much wider appeal and is better suited for e-sports.
But I do agree with one of the previous posters that the fact that if you're not korean you will never win a major event in SC2 has a huge effect. It's demoralizing, and all the deniers are simply flat out wrong. The same thing applies to traditional sports too. When your country beats all odds and does well at some international event there's a huge surge of popularity in the sport in that country and new people start playing it. They realise they have a chance, and they identify with their compatriots. Robot asians who don't even speak english are impossible to identify with as a westerner. It becomes their game, not ours.
I don't think it would be much better regardless of nationality if it's one country that dominates completely.
It's not so much nationality but culture & race. CS:GO is dominated by Europeans and Americans, so it appeals to Europeans and Americans, and not to Koreans. The only major e-sport game that has a split 'domination' at the moment is Dota 2, considering the Chinese and Western teams pretty much split the major trophies. That's of course the ideal situation, but if it comes to 'asian domination' or 'western domination' the westerners will always choose the latter, and the asians the former, and that's evidenced by the popularity of the games in those regions.
On March 13 2015 08:59 jellyjello wrote: SC2 has hit the ceiling for its growth in terms of a spectator sport. We can point out many reasons for it, but essentially what we are seeing today with the viewership numbers is the direct result of the biggest flaw in SC2: the game just does not have the charm to attract many casual players to keep playing the game.
The launching of LoTV will regain the viewership numbers by the virtue of it being a brand new game. However, unless the game's core issues are addressed - elements which attract casual players, we are going to have this same discussion again in 2-3 years.
I feel that have less to do with the flaws of the game and more about the lower appeal of the type of game it is. I don't believe any base building rts will manage to fulfill those criteria's unless they completely compromise what makes them fun to play for a competitive player.
You don't try to compete with other games for viewership. We are not comparing game A vs game B; that is not the point here. What we all need to understand is that for SC2 to take the next step in popularity and viewership numbers, the game _has_to_be played by casual players more often, period.
The core design problems with the game makes it too difficult for new people to jump in and start playing the game right away. There is the element of steep learning curve, too complicated strategies, and lack of adequate social environment...etc. The game relies too much on the concept of rock paper scissors, while the battles doesn't last long enough for casual players to be drawn in. Think about it: would someone who is curious about SC2 but has zero knowledge about RTS find this game fun to play after trying it out a few times? A few may, but chances are that the majority would not, as proven since the launching of the SC2: Wings of Liberty.
My point was that I don't think that's possible. As for the bolder part, yes a lot would, it's called playing the campaign. Casuals will never be appealed by this kind of game in multiplayer unless you redesign the whole game into something else (mobas and such). Sure SC2 isn't a perfect game but you just have to accept that casuals just like to watch mulitplayer more than they like to play it.
No wonder why they kick SC2 out of many Dreamhacks. Blizzard is really making me sad. So many wasted opportunities to make SC2 a big eSports game.
Just look at all the Features GOTV has, take a look at the Dota Spectator and in game features and compare it to SC2. I don't remember it correctly but didn't it take like 3-4 years to develop an overlay? The overlay was even mostly developed by a non employee which Blizzard later hired.
The future doesn't look good, but I hope for the best.
On March 16 2015 00:52 TurboMaN wrote: CS:Go numbers 300k+ on Twitch, 900k+ in GOTV
No wonder why they kick SC2 out of many Dreamhacks. Blizzard is really making me sad. So many wasted opportunities to make SC2 a big eSports game.
Just look at all the Features GOTV has, take a look at the Dota Spectator and in game features and compare it to SC2. I don't remember it correctly but didn't it take like 3-4 years to develop an overlay? The overlay was even mostly developed by a non employee which Blizzard later hired.
The future doesn't look good, but I hope for the best.
hltv.org numbers were different, it was 950k from all streams from twtich. Main stream was close to 600k alone
On March 13 2015 22:15 Tchado wrote: Drop sc2 but bring back HoN......kinda weird , at least with DreamHoN back I have a reason to watch dreamhack
YO DREAMHON? I am also going to be watching HoN this is huge!
Hell yeah man , that made my day ! I miss dreamhon , all we need now is for StayGreen to come back together which we know wont happen , Hontour teams are fun to watch these days,
On March 15 2015 19:35 Kaewins wrote: I am of the opinion, that it's not the game itself, but the players that play it. Sorry to say this, but the game had plenty of views when we had more non-koreans doing well. The fact is, I am not going to watch a tournament full of robot no personality koreans, I just have no interest in that. There is no storyline for me to invest in.
I haven't watched IEM Katowice at all, and why would I? Who should I cheer for? Where are Snute, Stephano, Naniwa? I don't care about Zest and Dark crushing everyone. If I wanted to watch the GSL, I would have watched, but I don't.
When they make tournaments worth watching, with players that we can care for, then they can expect high views.
Sorry for all the Korean fans here, but that's just me. I was watching the most SC2 when Stephano was active and beasting, then when he quit I tried focusing on others, but little by little all non koreans started vanishing from tournaments. And today we have a tournament like IEM Katowice, hosted in Europe with all Korean lineup. Good luck making people watch that instead of CS:GO. Why would they?
Yet all foreigner only tournaments get less views than ones with Korean's in it.
There hasn't been a WCS or an IEM or a DH with only foreigners with the current set-up, so there is no way we can compare. WCS EU has consistently had the highest viewers of all regions the for the last 2 years, no?
On March 15 2015 19:35 Kaewins wrote: I am of the opinion, that it's not the game itself, but the players that play it. Sorry to say this, but the game had plenty of views when we had more non-koreans doing well. The fact is, I am not going to watch a tournament full of robot no personality koreans, I just have no interest in that. There is no storyline for me to invest in.
I haven't watched IEM Katowice at all, and why would I? Who should I cheer for? Where are Snute, Stephano, Naniwa? I don't care about Zest and Dark crushing everyone. If I wanted to watch the GSL, I would have watched, but I don't.
When they make tournaments worth watching, with players that we can care for, then they can expect high views.
Sorry for all the Korean fans here, but that's just me. I was watching the most SC2 when Stephano was active and beasting, then when he quit I tried focusing on others, but little by little all non koreans started vanishing from tournaments. And today we have a tournament like IEM Katowice, hosted in Europe with all Korean lineup. Good luck making people watch that instead of CS:GO. Why would they?
Yet all foreigner only tournaments get less views than ones with Korean's in it.
There hasn't been a WCS or an IEM or a DH with only foreigners with the current set-up, so there is no way we can compare. WCS EU has consistently had the highest viewers of all regions the for the last 2 years, no?
Alas it's true most people see Koreans as just asian people, they don't make difference between Zest and Rain, they think INnoVation is a souless robot and Soulkey a patch zerg.
They need europeans or americans to cheer for, they miss Stephano, Naniwa and Idra, some may even long for Huk's come back and most of them are crying because Scarlett has retired.
What they don't see is all these "foreigners" only could have success during the first 2 years of SC2 cause no foreigner can dedicate 3, 4, 5 or even 10 years to esport. And sc2 is a game that no one can master in just 2 years of progaming, they'll always be violently outclassed by Koreans who can train 12 hours a day for 4 years just to try to become a regular proleague bench guy.
The amount of skill and knowledge needed for sc2 is way out of "casual pros" reach. Yes Dayshi could have been a top terran, yes Snute could win big tournaments, yes Mana, Bunny and so many others could be top tier players, but none of them will be, none of them will do, cause none of them will be able to risk their whole life on 4-6 years 100% dedicated to sc2, sacrificing studies, career, money, for what? the very unlikely possibility of winning one 25 000 $ tournament that is barely 1 year of decent living in europe?
Is that a reason to hate sc2, is that a reason to hate Koreans?
I love 3000m steeple chase race. Yet, only kenyans, and sometimes ethopians, can win in this sport. Does it make it a bad sport? Should I give up any interest in this sport until a blond white european start to have a chance at winning the olympics? What should I respect more, the nationnality of a sportman or his skill?
I never meant to put down anyone who enjoys the current scene. It is just not very interesting to watch for me, personally. Sometimes a less skilled, but more hectic back and forth game is much more interesting to watch, than these proleague games where you lose 3 workers and you lose the game. Europeans may not be as skilled, but the WCS EU is fun to watch, up until the handful of Koreans crush everyone else and go into an all Korean finals... In Europe...
Threads like these make me sad. It's not about which game is the most popular. SC2 is almost 5 years old, for a game of that age it's still doing pretty well. And LotV will definitely bring back some viewers and players. But please stop comparing team games like LoL and CS:GO to a 1v1 game like SC2. It's a completely different thing. Like another guy said: You can follow CS:GO even if you don't have the slightest idea of strategies. There are guys with guns, shooting at each other. Rounds are quick and action-packed, momentum often shifts due to the game's economy system and the maps. Just the perfect game to tune into casually.
On the other hand, SC2 is a game that needs some explaining even though most of the times it's pretty easy to see who's got an advantage. (bigger army, more bases, etc.) But often it's very hard to distinguish all the little things the pros do, especially if the casters aren't talking about those things. Casting has become a lot better in the recent 2 years, especially after the inclusion of pro players like Tod. Starcraft offers much more variety when it comes to the games itself, but this also comes with the possibility of one-sided stomps and swarm host vs. mech slugfests.
But is it really a problem that other games are bigger than SC2? Of course not. We've had this discussion hundreds of times, and it's always the same circlejerk along the lines of "dead gaem" and "the koreans are evil". Why can't we just accept that SC2 is not made for the biggest audiences? All popular sports are team games. Football (both versions), basketball, volleyball, hockey...the list is long. Just take a look at the most popular individual sports: Tennis, golf, track and field all are able to attract decent numbers of people, while not being able to compete with the big team games. And it's completely fine. As long as sport is SUSTAINABLE, everything is fine.
If the tournament circuit for SC2 collapses entirely and there won't be any pro gamers left, then it's really time to doom and gloom. But the whole esports industry still is in its infant stages. We might see SC2 fade away, we might also see it becoming a small, but healthy individual sport alongside the huge team games.
edit: I also will never get the whole foreigners vs. koreans debate. The best players win. End of story. If they are boring robots, so be it. And lots of Koreans actually are far from being emotionless robots. Yes, it is easier to cheer for foreigners as their personality is easier to grasp. But in the end of the day, the only thing that matters to me is the quality of the games. I love watching WCS EU, but I also enjoyed IEM this weekend. Dark's ZvT was awesome, Trap's PvT also was really creative and edgy. And Zest may not be the most emotional guy under the sun, but his skill speaks for itself. He's a champion. A champion doesn't have to be a clown. Champions win tournaments.
On March 13 2015 22:15 Tchado wrote: Drop sc2 but bring back HoN......kinda weird , at least with DreamHoN back I have a reason to watch dreamhack
YO DREAMHON? I am also going to be watching HoN this is huge!
Hell yeah man , that made my day ! I miss dreamhon , all we need now is for StayGreen to come back together which we know wont happen , Hontour teams are fun to watch these days,
is honcast still a thing? IS BREAKYCPK STILL A THING?
On March 16 2015 05:24 virpi wrote: Threads like these make me sad. It's not about which game is the most popular. SC2 is almost 5 years old, for a game of that age it's still doing pretty well. And LotV will definitely bring back some viewers and players. But please stop comparing team games like LoL and CS:GO to a 1v1 game like SC2. It's a completely different thing.
You can go back and RTS historically hasn't had the same prestige or following as other computer game genres. Quake was giving big money pay outs in the late 90s...StarCraft came out in 98 but didn't have a big money payout until it was commercialized in Korea about 3 years after BW came out. This trend kept on going and in both starcraft and war3 it seemed there was a large segment of players that actually played the arcade style games "dota, random rpgs, madness, tower defense"...starcraft had a wide net but 1v1 starcraft was never a massive thing. When starcraft was at its peak it didn't lose players and interest to quake or counterstrike or anything like that it was Everquest...seriously whole guilds went over and many of those players never really came back.
RTS hasn't ever been a huge hit on consoles...FPSrs are...
As far as the wanting to watch an all Korean competition, you can see the same thing in sports...outside of the NFL most sports fans don't just watch the sport...they watch a team or players. You might watch UT in any sport...you might watch Man U...but if you are a Liverpool fan you probably don't watch Man U play...if you are an A&M fan you probably don't watch Texas.
I might like watching Messi play...does that mean I'll be interested in a Champions League game between Galatasaray and Porto?
People follow people for many reasons and geography tends to be one of the biggest reasons. Sure I liked watching Boxer, Idra, and Jinro in early starcraft 2, but I never was as interested in Leenock, MMA, and Jjakji. I find games with Parting, Innovation, Life, or Flash great...but half the people at IEM I couldn't care to watch..and I watched every match (I just didn't do something else while watching the series I cared about). I'm not sure why people think everybody needs to be an elitist or a front runner.
But is it really a problem that other games are bigger than SC2? Of course not. We've had this discussion hundreds of times, and it's always the same circlejerk along the lines of "dead gaem" and "the koreans are evil". Why can't we just accept that SC2 is not made for the biggest audiences? All popular sports are team games. Football (both versions), basketball, volleyball, hockey...the list is long. Just take a look at the most popular individual sports: Tennis, golf, track and field all are able to attract decent numbers of people, while not being able to compete with the big team games. And it's completely fine. As long as sport is SUSTAINABLE, everything is fine.
You have to admit that Starcraft 2 WAS, once, in fact the number 1 most viewed game in twitch for quite a while, that is during the WoL days back before Queens weren't patched for no reason other than Zergs "having trouble dealing with Hellion runbys", and then things all went downhill from there. Then HoTS was released and fixed a couple of issues, and we saw the scene's resurgence for a while, then somehow the matchups became static and the metagame stopped developing for some reason, basically because people lost interest in the game despite the game had a time when it was the most viewed game in Twitch.
Yes bigger competitions did appear in the esports scene. Yes MOBAs are easier to get into compared to complex, hardcore RTS games. Yes FPS games are the norm in today's gaming department. Yes RTS games are now virtually nonexistent. And yes F2P with micro transactions > P2P. Still that doesn't explain how SC2's viewer count keeps on dropping by the day and that doesn't excuse blizzard from not making this game as big as it was before back in 2011. CS:GO used to be one of the underdog games in the esports scene, but Valve showed that they cared for their game and now its one of the most viewed games on twitch. Almost in par with LoL even.
But instead of taking matters into their own hands, they decide to let things the way they are as if there was no problems in the game at all. I don't see maphackers and cheaters get banned. I'm not seeing them fixing the esports scene and WCS. Even though they are working on the next expansion that doesn't mean that they should neglect this game enitrely. Yes they are testing flying locusts and tempests on their test maps. I bet that they're going to release them a day before LoTV is launched lol. They're probably going to just wash their hands clean on the next expansion and focus on other, more "community appealing" games such as Heroes of the Storm and Hearthstone, and they need to, if they want their company to survive. Cause I don't see much value in milkin out from SC2 anymore.
On March 13 2015 22:15 Tchado wrote: Drop sc2 but bring back HoN......kinda weird , at least with DreamHoN back I have a reason to watch dreamhack
YO DREAMHON? I am also going to be watching HoN this is huge!
Hell yeah man , that made my day ! I miss dreamhon , all we need now is for StayGreen to come back together which we know wont happen , Hontour teams are fun to watch these days,
is honcast still a thing? IS BREAKYCPK STILL A THING?
EPT
