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Pinnacle voids Dark vs. San bets due to match manipulation…

Forum Index > SC2 General
1079 CommentsPost a Reply
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Matchfixing is a very serious offence and accusations of matchfixing should not be made lightly. Please avoid making accusations against specific individuals unless you have substantial proof, or until further information is released. (0620 KST)
Swoopae
Profile Joined January 2015
Australia339 Posts
January 23 2015 14:23 GMT
#821
On January 23 2015 23:11 lichter wrote:
Swoopae, I am curious about Pinnacle's registration system. Since bets have the potential to move lines, are accounts required to be tied to a bank account/paypal/credit card? Wouldn't it be easy for Pinnacle to just search for that information from the anomalous bettors? Or are the bets made anonymously? Seems like an odd system if people were allowed to bet without a guarantee of payment. So shouldn't uncovering the bettors be relatively easy?


Yes, you need to send in your ID which is linked to your account in order to withdraw or transfer money. It's standard protocol for sportsbetting and online poker sites. After you've sent in your ID once though they rarely ask you for anything else or to send it again etc. They also track the IPs bets are placed from I believe.

There's a chance that they have signed up using stolen ID card/credit cards and VPNs but theres also a chance they didn't, i'm not an online security expert you'd need to ask Pinnacle for a fully accurate answer.
Swoopae
Profile Joined January 2015
Australia339 Posts
January 23 2015 14:28 GMT
#822
Here's the standard email to verify your account at Pinnacle, copy pasted from my email when I verified mine

Dear Pinnacle Sports’ Client,

Please be advised that you have not yet provided your credit/debit card documentation for your recent credit/debit card deposit. Clients normally have three days to provide their credit/debit card documentation. This information is contained in the 'Cashier-Deposit Methods' section of our site. Please note that Pinnacle Sports reserves the right to restrict accounts with outstanding credit/debit card documentation.



Please be reminded that accounts with outstanding credit/debit card documentation cannot withdraw funds by any method.



The following documentation is still outstanding:

Photo ID: Passport, Driver's License or National Identity Card ( this is required only once even if you use multiple cards)
Front of your Credit/Debit Card
Back of your Credit/Debit Card (Please carefully redact only the 3 digit CVV2 or CVC2 Card Security Code in the scan)
Completed Authorization Statement (please find attached)

For your security and the protection of Pinnacle Sports, only scanned documents securely uploaded from the Web site will be accepted. The transmission and storage of all data is protected using the very latest firewall and 128-bit certificate-based encryption technology. This is the same Internet security standard for online transactions as demanded by major financial institutions around the World.

Please log into your account and go to the ‘Personal Details’ page of the My Account section of the Web site to securely upload your documents. Alternatively, required documents can also be safely uploaded by following the onscreen instructions on the ‘Make a Deposit - Credit Card Deposit’ page in the Cashier section. Documents submitted by email or fax are not accepted and will be deleted upon arrival.

Please do not include the 3 digit CVV2 or CVC2 Card Security Code when scanning the credit card information. This number is located on the back of your credit card. Either delete this information from the scan or cover these numbers before scanning the back of your card. Please ensure your complete signature and all necessary information is fully legible before submitting any information.

If you have questions regarding the credit/debit card information only, please contact our Risk Management Department at ccsecurity@pinnaclesports.com.
To avoid delays, all other questions should be sent to our Customer Service Department at csd@pinnaclesports.com.

We appreciate your cooperation.


Kind regards,

Risk Management Department
Pinnacle Sports
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12083 Posts
January 23 2015 14:29 GMT
#823
If it's confirmed that it also happened in a match where the player who was bet on lost (Life vs Maru), doesn't it speak against player's involvement?
"It is capitalism that is incentivizing me to lazily explain this to you while at work because I am not rewarded for generating additional value."
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
January 23 2015 14:30 GMT
#824
Is it known how much money was needed to manipulate the odds that way?
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-23 14:34:35
January 23 2015 14:33 GMT
#825
On January 23 2015 23:30 TheDwf wrote:
Is it known how much money was needed to manipulate the odds that way?

yeah i wonder that as well, if there isn't much needed it doesn't really seem that fishy, right?
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Swoopae
Profile Joined January 2015
Australia339 Posts
January 23 2015 14:35 GMT
#826
On January 23 2015 23:30 TheDwf wrote:
Is it known how much money was needed to manipulate the odds that way?


Pinnacle know, the rest of us can speculate but given they have sharp accounts move the line further than square accounts its hard to tell exactly
Swoopae
Profile Joined January 2015
Australia339 Posts
January 23 2015 14:37 GMT
#827
On January 23 2015 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:
If it's confirmed that it also happened in a match where the player who was bet on lost (Life vs Maru), doesn't it speak against player's involvement?


Yeah, I don't think anyone is suggesting that game was fixed, just an example of unusual line movement from that guy (no idea if it was or not)

Flash regularly gets absurd steam on him and Jaedong used to; they just have a lot of casual fans. It's when a person who is a good bet, and who usually gets bet on has all of the money come in against him and then lose that it's suspicious.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
January 23 2015 14:39 GMT
#828
On January 23 2015 23:35 Swoopae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 23:30 TheDwf wrote:
Is it known how much money was needed to manipulate the odds that way?


Pinnacle know, the rest of us can speculate but given they have sharp accounts move the line further than square accounts its hard to tell exactly

Any order of magnitude? Thousands of dollars? Dozens of thousands? More?
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
January 23 2015 14:41 GMT
#829
On January 23 2015 23:37 Swoopae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:
If it's confirmed that it also happened in a match where the player who was bet on lost (Life vs Maru), doesn't it speak against player's involvement?


Yeah, I don't think anyone is suggesting that game was fixed, just an example of unusual line movement from that guy (no idea if it was or not)

Flash regularly gets absurd steam on him and Jaedong used to; they just have a lot of casual fans. It's when a person who is a good bet, and who usually gets bet on has all of the money come in against him and then lose that it's suspicious.

Euh so line movements like that happen "regularly"?
I guess the difference is that in these matches there wasn't much money involved so you didn't need much money to move the line that much?
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
GumBa
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United Kingdom31935 Posts
January 23 2015 14:43 GMT
#830
Can we bottomline it that something weird is going on BUT NO PLAYER FIXED and innocent until proven guilty
To all the haters: you deserve to witness many, many more Serral victories, worthy of the godlike player he is.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12083 Posts
January 23 2015 14:45 GMT
#831
On January 23 2015 23:37 Swoopae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 23:29 Nebuchad wrote:
If it's confirmed that it also happened in a match where the player who was bet on lost (Life vs Maru), doesn't it speak against player's involvement?


Yeah, I don't think anyone is suggesting that game was fixed, just an example of unusual line movement from that guy (no idea if it was or not)

Flash regularly gets absurd steam on him and Jaedong used to; they just have a lot of casual fans. It's when a person who is a good bet, and who usually gets bet on has all of the money come in against him and then lose that it's suspicious.


Well the 2+2 thread is devolving into conspiracy theories now so there's that (apparently MVPMK got to finals of Hot6ix Cup cause Hot6ix sponsors MVP and so every protoss threw against him, lol). But from my understanding of what's been said there, that match was mentioned because the same type of movement happened, right? So the only difference between this match and the others is that Life ended up winning, isn't it?
"It is capitalism that is incentivizing me to lazily explain this to you while at work because I am not rewarded for generating additional value."
Swoopae
Profile Joined January 2015
Australia339 Posts
January 23 2015 14:46 GMT
#832
On January 23 2015 23:39 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 23:35 Swoopae wrote:
On January 23 2015 23:30 TheDwf wrote:
Is it known how much money was needed to manipulate the odds that way?


Pinnacle know, the rest of us can speculate but given they have sharp accounts move the line further than square accounts its hard to tell exactly

Any order of magnitude? Thousands of dollars? Dozens of thousands? More?


When the lines open, hundreds will move it a small amount, thousands a large. On game day, thousands will move the line, and tens of thousands will move the line in extreme fashion like San vs Dark style. On a major tournament final (think Code s final) where lots of people are betting the numbers would be larger.
riyanme
Profile Joined September 2010
Philippines940 Posts
January 23 2015 14:48 GMT
#833
Savior in BW
San in SC2?????????????????

the end is near.... hahaha~

User was temp banned for this post.
-
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
January 23 2015 14:52 GMT
#834
On January 23 2015 23:46 Swoopae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 23:39 TheDwf wrote:
On January 23 2015 23:35 Swoopae wrote:
On January 23 2015 23:30 TheDwf wrote:
Is it known how much money was needed to manipulate the odds that way?


Pinnacle know, the rest of us can speculate but given they have sharp accounts move the line further than square accounts its hard to tell exactly

Any order of magnitude? Thousands of dollars? Dozens of thousands? More?


When the lines open, hundreds will move it a small amount, thousands a large. On game day, thousands will move the line, and tens of thousands will move the line in extreme fashion like San vs Dark style. On a major tournament final (think Code s final) where lots of people are betting the numbers would be larger.

OK, thanks. So, suppose a millionnaire (or more) blasé about life who relishes kicking the nest to watch the ants panicking; or whatever his reason is to become an agent of chaos. Such a guy could be responsible for this mess, triggering this "scandal" with absurd, random bets?
Swoopae
Profile Joined January 2015
Australia339 Posts
January 23 2015 14:56 GMT
#835
On January 23 2015 23:45 Nebuchad wrote:

Well the 2+2 thread is devolving into conspiracy theories now so there's that (apparently MVPMK got to finals of Hot6ix Cup cause Hot6ix sponsors MVP and so every protoss threw against him, lol). But from my understanding of what's been said there, that match was mentioned because the same type of movement happened, right? So the only difference between this match and the others is that Life ended up winning, isn't it?


Most of the people posting conspiracy stuff are not regular 2p2 thread users. Please note the guy who said the MVP/Hot6 thing has 2 posts and is not a regular user of the forum. As it is not a starcraft forum sportsbettors are speculating wildly. Some speculation may have validity, most of it won't. The real thing that matters is that Pinnacle and Kespa look into whatever is going on. None of us want San, Innovation or anyone else to be involved in any wrongdoing but something weird is going on and it's Kespa and Pinnacle's job to find out what and tell us. If it's nothing, then cool. If it's something, then we want to know specifically what's going on and why. Whether it's match fixing, pinnacle's fraud detection systems being broken or some weird random coincidences we want to know whats going on.

The one thing that may have merit after today's interesting bet cancellation on Inno/Super game 1 is that the Innovation/sOs and Innovation/herO Hot6 cup line movements were apparently unusual according to the guy that has been PMing me on twitter. I was actually told this yesterday on twitter without the two specific matches being mentioned by said person, after today's Innovation/Super game the poster confirmed that both games in the hot6 cup that they said yesterday to me had suspicious movement were the two mentioned above. I haven't seen them personally so I don't know whether there is any merit or not as I have not seen the line movement graphs myself. I emailed Pinnacle the info though so they can use their algorithms to check if anything unusual happened or not.

Further speculation at this point is useless, but there should be an outrage if this situation isn't thoroughly investigated. I think TL should request a followup interview with Pinnacle today now that a second match's betting has been cancelled due to suspicious line movement which was then confirmed by the games result and Kespa need to speak up ASAP about whether they plan to do anything to look into this or not.
Swoopae
Profile Joined January 2015
Australia339 Posts
January 23 2015 14:58 GMT
#836
On January 23 2015 23:52 TheDwf wrote:

OK, thanks. So, suppose a millionnaire (or more) blasé about life who relishes kicking the nest to watch the ants panicking; or whatever his reason is to become an agent of chaos. Such a guy could be responsible for this mess, triggering this "scandal" with absurd, random bets?


Yes, that's possible, but so are many other things including match fixing, random coincidences, Pinnacle's fraud detection systems being wrong out of nowhere multiple times and pretty much any number of outcomes. We won't know until the people who have access to the necessary information tell us.
iloveav
Profile Joined November 2008
Poland1478 Posts
January 23 2015 15:07 GMT
#837
I dont want to be unsensitive about this issue, but, are you guys really surprised?
I would not even be surprised if everything here was perfectly legal, no match fixing, no nothing, and a guy who just lost a bet would be exploiting the system to get back the cash he lost.

What I am trying to say is this:
If you are betting money, you should be aware of the possibility of something going wrong, just about the same way as depositing your money in a bank can be fatal if there is a bank run.
Sure, its not a common thing, but it does occasionally happen.
The thing here is, its gonna be hard to PROVE anything. And even If it is, will the money change hands accordingly to make it fair?

aka LRM)Cats_Paw.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12083 Posts
January 23 2015 15:09 GMT
#838
On January 23 2015 23:56 Swoopae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 23:45 Nebuchad wrote:

Well the 2+2 thread is devolving into conspiracy theories now so there's that (apparently MVPMK got to finals of Hot6ix Cup cause Hot6ix sponsors MVP and so every protoss threw against him, lol). But from my understanding of what's been said there, that match was mentioned because the same type of movement happened, right? So the only difference between this match and the others is that Life ended up winning, isn't it?


Most of the people posting conspiracy stuff are not regular 2p2 thread users. Please note the guy who said the MVP/Hot6 thing has 2 posts and is not a regular user of the forum. As it is not a starcraft forum sportsbettors are speculating wildly. Some speculation may have validity, most of it won't. The real thing that matters is that Pinnacle and Kespa look into whatever is going on. None of us want San, Innovation or anyone else to be involved in any wrongdoing but something weird is going on and it's Kespa and Pinnacle's job to find out what and tell us. If it's nothing, then cool. If it's something, then we want to know specifically what's going on and why. Whether it's match fixing, pinnacle's fraud detection systems being broken or some weird random coincidences we want to know whats going on.

The one thing that may have merit after today's interesting bet cancellation on Inno/Super game 1 is that the Innovation/sOs and Innovation/herO Hot6 cup line movements were apparently unusual according to the guy that has been PMing me on twitter. I was actually told this yesterday on twitter without the two specific matches being mentioned by said person, after today's Innovation/Super game the poster confirmed that both games in the hot6 cup that they said yesterday to me had suspicious movement were the two mentioned above. I haven't seen them personally so I don't know whether there is any merit or not as I have not seen the line movement graphs myself. I emailed Pinnacle the info though so they can use their algorithms to check if anything unusual happened or not.

Further speculation at this point is useless, but there should be an outrage if this situation isn't thoroughly investigated. I think TL should request a followup interview with Pinnacle today now that a second match's betting has been cancelled due to suspicious line movement which was then confirmed by the games result and Kespa need to speak up ASAP about whether they plan to do anything to look into this or not.


So what the guy who called you a scumbag here wasn't a regular poster either and that didn't stop you from flaming us on 2+2.

Anyway your post doesn't really answer mine. There is a claim that the same pattern happened on Maru vs Life and despite that pattern Life ended up winning. If it's confirmed that this is correct, to me that speaks against player involvement, as it's evidence that certitude of victory isn't a necessity for the bets to occur. Now obviously the claim isn't confirmed but without a specific reason to dismiss it I think we have to take it into account.
"It is capitalism that is incentivizing me to lazily explain this to you while at work because I am not rewarded for generating additional value."
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
January 23 2015 15:11 GMT
#839
On January 23 2015 23:56 Swoopae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 23:45 Nebuchad wrote:

Well the 2+2 thread is devolving into conspiracy theories now so there's that (apparently MVPMK got to finals of Hot6ix Cup cause Hot6ix sponsors MVP and so every protoss threw against him, lol). But from my understanding of what's been said there, that match was mentioned because the same type of movement happened, right? So the only difference between this match and the others is that Life ended up winning, isn't it?


Further speculation at this point is useless, but there should be an outrage if this situation isn't thoroughly investigated. I think TL should request a followup interview with Pinnacle today now that a second match's betting has been cancelled due to suspicious line movement which was then confirmed by the games result and Kespa need to speak up ASAP about whether they plan to do anything to look into this or not.


We will definitely follow up with Pinnacle, but I would like to hear from Kespa first so both sides will already have said something about what they are doing.
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9366 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-23 15:20:53
January 23 2015 15:14 GMT
#840
On January 23 2015 23:52 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 23:46 Swoopae wrote:
On January 23 2015 23:39 TheDwf wrote:
On January 23 2015 23:35 Swoopae wrote:
On January 23 2015 23:30 TheDwf wrote:
Is it known how much money was needed to manipulate the odds that way?


Pinnacle know, the rest of us can speculate but given they have sharp accounts move the line further than square accounts its hard to tell exactly

Any order of magnitude? Thousands of dollars? Dozens of thousands? More?


When the lines open, hundreds will move it a small amount, thousands a large. On game day, thousands will move the line, and tens of thousands will move the line in extreme fashion like San vs Dark style. On a major tournament final (think Code s final) where lots of people are betting the numbers would be larger.

OK, thanks. So, suppose a millionnaire (or more) blasé about life who relishes kicking the nest to watch the ants panicking; or whatever his reason is to become an agent of chaos. Such a guy could be responsible for this mess, triggering this "scandal" with absurd, random bets?


If we look at the Innovation-example it doens't really make sense.

Let's say your a random millionaire/bilionaire looking for some excitement in your favourite esport (Sc2).

You see Super vs Innovation, and you bet on Super for the lulz. For some reason you bet on G1 and not the whole series, and after you have maxed out the bet and the line moves, you then chosoe to bet against on G1. Then you bet again and again untill the line has moved sufficiently.

Why would you be so focussed on betting on G1 if you were a rich guy looking for some excitement? Why not get more excitement by also beting on G2 and G3 or the whole series?
This just seems so unlikely compared to the other possiblity (matchfixing).


We will definitely follow up with Pinnacle, but I would like to hear from Kespa first so both sides will already have said something about what they are doing.


I guess Kespa has an interest in keeping the rumours down untill they can no longer be ignored. So I am really curious on how they willl react here. Either everything will go nuts or they will try to avoid/downplay the issue.
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