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I was really surprized by Blizzard decision to kick all 3 maps which koreans used in their WCS.. In my opinion - these 3 maps were the only playable maps in the mappool. Because on these maps you could play either passive or agressive, based on your preferences. And the maps left - already select style for you. And because the maps left - are less balanced. So i decided to make different polls to see, whether people agree with me or not.
If you were in Blizzard place - would you kick 3 korean WCS maps or 3 maps they remained?
Poll: Would you kick 3 maps which Blizzard kicked or 3 maps which left?No, i would kick Catallena, Deadwing and Foxtrot (113) 74% I would kick Overgrowth, Merry Go Round and King Sejong like Blizzard did (39) 26% 152 total votes Your vote: Would you kick 3 maps which Blizzard kicked or 3 maps which left? (Vote): I would kick Overgrowth, Merry Go Round and King Sejong like Blizzard did
(Vote): No, i would kick Catallena, Deadwing and Foxtrot
Also please select 3 maps from following to kick and 3 to remain (i didn't add Nimbus because it's quite obvious that this map is imbalanced and terran favoured)
Poll: Catallenakick (126) 76% remain (40) 24% 166 total votes Your vote: Catallena (Vote): kick
(Vote): remain
Poll: Overgrowthremain (116) 68% kick (54) 32% 170 total votes Your vote: Overgrowth (Vote): kick
(Vote): remain
Poll: Merry Go Roundkick (92) 57% remain (69) 43% 161 total votes Your vote: Merry Go Round (Vote): kick
(Vote): remain
Poll: Deadwingkick (101) 66% remain (52) 34% 153 total votes Your vote: Deadwing (Vote): kick
(Vote): remain
Poll: King Sejongremain (115) 69% kick (51) 31% 166 total votes Your vote: King Sejong (Vote): kick
(Vote): remain
Poll: Foxtrotkick (122) 73% remain (46) 27% 168 total votes Your vote: Foxtrot (Vote): kick
(Vote): remain
Thanks for your time!
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I love Nimbus. I've enjoyed ever single pro game I've ever seen on it, which is more than I can see for any other map. But I would never not cheese in ZvT on that map.
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Every terran likes Nimbus! ))
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hmmm. I want to keep KSS, Overgrowth and Foxtrot. Kick MGR, Deadwing, Catallena, and Nimbus.
MGR is usually pretty lame with shorter and predictable games. Catallena and Nimbus seem to have some of the worst statistical balance in recent memory. Granted, Nimbus at least has produced some great games this year. Deadwing....surprisingly not as bad as I initially thought it was going to be but still not a particularly impressive map.
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Nimbus is good for pvz, quite a few great pvz was played on the map. Half decent for tvz actually. Horrible for pvt.
Catallena is really dependent on spawn position for pvt. It's impossible to get 3rd base in pvt if you have to expand towards terran.
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I don't know how this happened, but I meant to say Foxtrot and just got confused. I like Nimbus too. As long as you take down those rocks early on that Terran likes to hide siege tanks behind, it's a fine map to play ZvT on.
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I honestly dont mind that much but I do want to kick the new blizz maps they suggested.
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i agree with blizzards decision to remove overgrowth, KSS and merry go round. Sure they are one of the best maps ever created but they are just to old. Better keep the map pool fresh instead of keeping the good maps forever.
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Catallena - 'remain'
Overgrowth - 'remain'
Merry Go Round - 'kick'
Deadwing - 'kick'
King Sejong Station - 'remain'
Foxtrot Labs - 'kick'
Sort of a combination of the two I suppose, but it seems most people more or less agree Overgrowth and KSS should stay while Deadwing and Foxtrot go... I personally favor Catallena over Mery Go Round though.
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Austria24417 Posts
I would kick literally every single one of them, and 3/4 of these new Blizzard maps
KSS and Overgrowth are the only good maps in the pool currently and they've been around for a while and feel a bit stale.
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Blizzard: We want to help zergs via maps. -> remove decent maps for Z, leave bad maps for Z. #Blizzardlogic.
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On December 19 2014 17:46 Strelok wrote:
Every terran likes Nimbus! ))
And that's why u skiped it in ur poll. But as P player I hate it to play vs T, considering some strange spawn location when my natural is just one medivac boost away from main of terran :D
So no thans, let Deadwing to stay and take ur Nimbus 
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On December 19 2014 19:18 Charoisaur wrote:
i agree with blizzards decision to remove overgrowth, KSS and merry go round. Sure they are one of the best maps ever created but they are just to old. Better keep the map pool fresh instead of keeping the good maps forever.
Better to keep the map pool fresh by adding new, good maps? Yes. Better to keep the map pool fresh by adding terrible maps? Eh, I don't know.
Blizzard's choice makes little sense, but hey considering Blizzard's policy towards maps it's hardly surprising. At this point I really don't know why they keep making maps. I mean, the community makes free maps of high quality. Why spend money to make worse maps?
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I think you need to remove 3 less popular maps and add 3 new maps. And not judge just on it's oldness...
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I love Overgrowth and KSS. Nimbus and Deadwing I hate. The rest I'm really neutral about. Altough I play zerg and some have been proven broken for other races lol.
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On December 19 2014 23:47 Strelok wrote:
I think you need to remove 3 less popular maps and add 3 new maps. And not judge just on it's oldness...
the problem with that is that you get cases like we had in WoL, where we were playing on ohana/CK and daybreak for years, we're actualy not far off from this, as some of these maps were about to become a year old in use if they weren't kicked.
the real problem here is how slow map rotation in WCS is, and interuptions like dreampool, or aditions of blizzard maps make this even more problematic.
here is a scary thought for you, out of the 3 blizzard maps, 2 will be played for 6months long if they were to remove one alongside the old maps, and after that it may very well be possible to add another 3 months to one or all of them.
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It was time for Merry, KSS and Overgrowth to go. They were played since S2 and we had to get rid of them. Nothing undiscovered, everygame that was played there, has been played somewhere else.
Getting rid of em was good for the game, not getting rid of catallena was bad.
Foxtrot has pretty decent winrate for all races and every race vetos it and dislikes it. Yet the map is still undiscovered and rarely seen and when we see Foxtrot, we see high action games from beginning to the (early) end. Lots of to base play, lots of push, retreat and defend matches with a high pace. The map pushes the players out of their comfortzone and thus it is hated, they have to adept, use their brain and not copy the same buildorder and wall like in every other game. I am really glad that Blizzard did not trash it.
But I am annoyed that Deadwing and Catallena stayed: Deadwing leads to the most boring games. Turtlemech and Turtlehosts like it. And nothing to say about "give me dat airspace"-catallena with all the other problems this map has.
When S2 came out last year, everyone hated Merry go Round. Now people cry for it. Times change but I am glad that we lost these just to old, 100% discovered and thus boring maps.
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On December 19 2014 23:57 Clonester wrote:
When S2 came out last year, everyone hated Merry go Round. Now people cry for it. Times change but I am glad that we lost these just to old, 100% discovered and thus boring maps.
I think that just shows how much worse current map pool is
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Canada28396 Posts
I want just 7 new maps. Overgrowth and KSS are good yes, but they're so played out and I'm sick of them. Give us 7 new maps, make 5 of them or something community maps and make everyone happy. Expedition Lost is good so far, but the entire rest of the map pool is terrible. Secret Spring may be the worst thing every.
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On December 20 2014 00:00 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 23:57 Clonester wrote:
When S2 came out last year, everyone hated Merry go Round. Now people cry for it. Times change but I am glad that we lost these just to old, 100% discovered and thus boring maps. I think that just shows how much worse current map pool is
Maybe, but I think it is different:
When S3 came out, I hated FTL for a certain time ( while I had to play on it.. ) But every FTL-game shows me why this map has to be in the progamer pool, these games cant be compared to any other games on the typical KSS and Overgrowth. They are so different that I really get hyped when FTL is played (mostly as Map 7 in Grandfinals which could lead to my hype for that map too ), I will remember the Flash-Parting Game on FTL for ages, the KSS and Overgrowthgames, pfff what has happend there, I dont remember.
When Merry came out, everyone was like "ah shit, this Zerg map" and Terrans were like "we have to veto this crap" and Protoss was like "Soultrain or Veto" and now it is concidered as pretty much balanced even between Protoss and Zerg, where no heavy buffs or nerfs have changed the meta.
Edit:
Maybe Blizzard should think about making a WCS Mappool and a Mappool for the Ladder, while the Ladderpool is not only 7 maps big, but arround 13. Grandmasters have to play only on the WCS Mappool, Masters can join their "league" by queeing in a WCS Quee and Diamands can do it too, but they dont field against Grandmaster in this special ladder.
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Canada28396 Posts
On December 20 2014 00:06 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2014 00:00 Ej_ wrote:On December 19 2014 23:57 Clonester wrote:
When S2 came out last year, everyone hated Merry go Round. Now people cry for it. Times change but I am glad that we lost these just to old, 100% discovered and thus boring maps. I think that just shows how much worse current map pool is Maybe, but I think it is different: When S3 came out, I hated FTL for a certain time ( while I had to play on it.. ) But every FTL-game shows me why this map has to be in the progamer pool, these games cant be compared to any other games on the typical KSS and Overgrowth. They are so different that I really get hyped when FTL is played (mostly as Map 7 in Grandfinals which could lead to my hype for that map too ), I will remember the Flash-Parting Game on FTL for ages, the KSS and Overgrowthgames, pfff what has happend there, I dont remember. When Merry came out, everyone was like "ah shit, this Zerg map" and Terrans were like "we have to veto this crap" and Protoss was like "Soultrain or Veto" and now it is concidered as pretty much balanced even between Protoss and Zerg, where no heavy buffs or nerfs have changed the meta.
Foxtrot is actually decent, and fun, I actually kind of sort of don't mind it as a choice if they feel they have to keep maps from last season.
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It seems I have rather unusual preferences :O I don't like King Sejong or Overgrowth and I love Deadwing and Nimbus, quite dislike Catallena.
I like the new changes, would have liked to see Foxtrot go though :/
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I agree. We are heading toward the last phase of HotS , gotta scrap every old map and remake the entire pool.
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On December 19 2014 23:57 Clonester wrote:
When Merry came out, everyone was like "ah shit, this Zerg map" and Terrans were like "we have to veto this crap" and Protoss was like "Soultrain or Veto" and now it is concidered as pretty much balanced even between Protoss and Zerg, where no heavy buffs or nerfs have changed the meta.
Merry was always considered to be T>Z>P...
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On December 20 2014 00:19 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 23:57 Clonester wrote:
When Merry came out, everyone was like "ah shit, this Zerg map" and Terrans were like "we have to veto this crap" and Protoss was like "Soultrain or Veto" and now it is concidered as pretty much balanced even between Protoss and Zerg, where no heavy buffs or nerfs have changed the meta.
Merry was always considered to be T>Z>P...
In S2, when there were no Thor and Mine Buffs, this map was not consideres as T>Z. It was considered as pure Zerg map.
Then Terrans began to abuse the cliff at the 4.base of the Zerg, gaving him a harsh time to establish the 4. base.
But only after the Minebuff and the Thorbuff the meta changed and it became a T>Z map.
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I don't mind what Blizzard did, I would have kicked Catallena if it were up to me but using how olds the maps are as a criterium is important as well.
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We need 7 new maps, every other map has been played too often.
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On December 19 2014 20:41 Tuczniak wrote:
Blizzard: We want to help zergs via maps. -> remove decent maps for Z, leave bad maps for Z. #Blizzardlogic.
except when you see the 4 new maps or test them. But Maps in Sc2 have one problem anyway. If it helps the Zerg most of the time it helps Bio against Protoss, if it helps Protoss most of the time it helps Mech against Zerg. Makes it almost impossible to make 3 way balanced maps. And strangely enough despite the veto system we use in tournaments, people still think that this is how the maps are supposed to be made.
Well it is also a strong influence by lazy players from all areas that don't want to play on different maps, because it helps their lazyness of being able to play one build.
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I'd keep only Foxtrot and KSS, but would only keep KSS because I feel like that map's potential hasn't been reached yet. Overgrowth is figured out and boring now, it's the same game for every matchup and doesn't have as much depth as KSS or Foxtrot.
That said, I think Blizzard should have considered bringing back older maps like Frost or Whirlwind, now that the game is more figured out.
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Out with the Old ! I want to see new maps.
I might barf on the next Overgrowth game.
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My map opinions are always so different from everyone else.
Master/ex-GM Z here
Keep Catallena
Kick Deadwing
Keep Foxtrot
Kick Overgrowth
Keep Merry Go Round
On the fence, but I said "Keep" King Sejong Station
Kick Nimbus
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Instead of pretending certain maps are imbalanced, lets look at some statistics.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vvoaL59.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TqE11ve.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/naVeiup.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hvHMx2G.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hzeTRJT.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MyOQ3ag.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wUvn4zr.png)
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King Sejong may be the best map ever.
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Change all the maps. They've all been around way too long and ladder has become incredibly boring.
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Really strange move by blizzard.
Overgrowth>King Sejong> Merry Go Round >Catallena> Deadwing > Foxtrot
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Get rid of them all. They're all pretty dull at this point.
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On December 20 2014 09:00 Ben... wrote:
Get rid of them all. They're all pretty dull at this point.
This assessment is dumb. Good maps aren't easy to make. When we have good ones, this is stupid to dump them just because they're old. Frost left too fast for instance. Nimbus was pretty hyped at the beginning (by Rotterdam especially) and turned out to be one of the worst maps ever devised.
I'm pretty sure people will be crying for Overgrowth and KSS to return when every BO5 will involve Secret Spring, Deadwing, Catallena or Inferno Pools.
The only thing I disagree with most people -if I am to believe this poll : Foxtrot Labs needs to stay. It's a pretty good map, still not figured out.
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I don't understand people who say remove Overgrowth because it's "old." Why does that mean you should remove a map? If nearly every pro gamer agrees that it's a good balanced map for all matchups, why not just leave it in the map pool? If something works and everyone likes it, JUST LEAVE IT! You can cycle out some of the other maps that people don't like. NASCAR drivers have been making the same fucking left turn for 60+ years and people still watch that shit. Just because something is "old" doesn't mean you need to change it.
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On December 23 2014 02:37 SC2Towelie wrote:
I don't understand people who say remove Overgrowth because it's "old." Why does that mean you should remove a map? If nearly every pro gamer agrees that it's a good balanced map for all matchups, why not just leave it in the map pool? If something works and everyone likes it, JUST LEAVE IT! You can cycle out some of the other maps that people don't like. NASCAR drivers have been making the same fucking left turn for 60+ years and people still watch that shit. Just because something is "old" doesn't mean you need to change it.
I can understand that argument for a map that stays like a full year, but it isn't even the case here. Overgrowth only stayed two seasons. True a huge amount of games have been played on it, but that's because it's a standard, interesting and balanced map and thus it was barely ever vetoed in competitive play and on ladder as well. What else can you ask for ?
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On December 23 2014 02:37 SC2Towelie wrote:
I don't understand people who say remove Overgrowth because it's "old." Why does that mean you should remove a map? If nearly every pro gamer agrees that it's a good balanced map for all matchups, why not just leave it in the map pool? If something works and everyone likes it, JUST LEAVE IT! You can cycle out some of the other maps that people don't like. NASCAR drivers have been making the same fucking left turn for 60+ years and people still watch that shit. Just because something is "old" doesn't mean you need to change it.
The problem is then that the mappool gets stale with a bunch of fixture maps that stay way too long. They may very well be balanced and pros might be comfortable on them, but it gets boring from the viewers perspective. The problem here was that the new maps that were kept are bad, not that replacing the old maps was a bad decision. It just means that the newer maps should have been replaced too.
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On December 23 2014 03:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2014 02:37 SC2Towelie wrote:
I don't understand people who say remove Overgrowth because it's "old." Why does that mean you should remove a map? If nearly every pro gamer agrees that it's a good balanced map for all matchups, why not just leave it in the map pool? If something works and everyone likes it, JUST LEAVE IT! You can cycle out some of the other maps that people don't like. NASCAR drivers have been making the same fucking left turn for 60+ years and people still watch that shit. Just because something is "old" doesn't mean you need to change it. The problem is then that the mappool gets stale with a bunch of fixture maps that stay way too long. They may very well be balanced and pros might be comfortable on them, but it gets boring from the viewers perspective. The problem here was that the new maps that were kept are bad, not that replacing the old maps was a bad decision. It just means that the newer maps should have been replaced too.
No, the major problem is that the replacement maps are garbage.
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On December 19 2014 19:26 SatedSC2 wrote:
Well at least the community seems to have some common sense, even if Blizzard don't seem to possess any at this moment in time.
I'd like to see them react to this poll.
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EPT
