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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 14 2014 04:00 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 15:39 Zealously wrote:On November 13 2014 13:03 Bagration wrote:On November 13 2014 12:17 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 13 2014 07:25 Dodgin wrote:
lol taeja gets 8 slots higher than bomber even though he lost in WCS AM as usual
joke IT IS A POWER RANK! The title of the goddamn list is the post-Blizzcon POWER RANK! He says in the beginning of the damn list that he weighted Blizzcon very heavily, why in the hell does the WCS AM tournament matter? It doesn't. Geez, I feel like I'm the only nerd on this site that ever reads conventional sporting Power Ranks. The rest of you don't seem to have a clue of what they are. He didn't weigh Blizzcon heavily - he only weighed it heavily when it suited him (Life #1, but MMA #6). That's why this Power Ranking is clearly biased - there's no consistent methodology here. I don't think placing MMA at #6 for beating the players he did and getting absolutely crushed by Life is terribly biased. Would you rate him above soO or Zest after Blizzcon? For me, the answer was no - he impressed me, but not that much. My reasoning is this: Up until the finals, MMA beat each of his opponents by a comfortable margin (3-1 each time), and his opponents weren't exactly walkovers - Bomber was pegged as a big contender, and Classic is no slouch either. Secondly, MMA didn't exactly come out of nowhere for Blizzcon. He won 2 Premier tournaments (Dreamhack and WCS EU) in the months right before Blizzcon - overall he's had a very good fall. I don't think that Life at #1 is wrong, but the reasoning is inconsistent - if Life can be #1 from one good tournament, why does MMA need 3 good showings and only gets #6?Ultimately, ability is one thing, but accomplishments when it matters is also very important. soO and Zest FAILED at Blizzcon. When it came down to the wire, they came up short.
It's fairly simple: because I think Life performed much better than MMA did. I covered this in MMA's section, but I have this nagging feeling that there were a lot of players that Blizzcon that could or should have taken him out. I definitely respect his run and it's one of his best recently, but the way he unceremoniously dropped to an on-form player (Life) makes me question whether or not he got to the finals simply by virtue of being better than his opponents, or if he was aided by his opponents collapsing or having a bad day.
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Hm not really that good eh? I get a little bit of bias here and there, but this writeup/Powerrank is at best mediocre.
PS: putting MMA to 6 arguing that way is pretty lousy too..... and the high placement of Taeja is also a bit......ah forget it 
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On November 14 2014 04:00 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 15:39 Zealously wrote:On November 13 2014 13:03 Bagration wrote:On November 13 2014 12:17 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 13 2014 07:25 Dodgin wrote:
lol taeja gets 8 slots higher than bomber even though he lost in WCS AM as usual
joke IT IS A POWER RANK! The title of the goddamn list is the post-Blizzcon POWER RANK! He says in the beginning of the damn list that he weighted Blizzcon very heavily, why in the hell does the WCS AM tournament matter? It doesn't. Geez, I feel like I'm the only nerd on this site that ever reads conventional sporting Power Ranks. The rest of you don't seem to have a clue of what they are. He didn't weigh Blizzcon heavily - he only weighed it heavily when it suited him (Life #1, but MMA #6). That's why this Power Ranking is clearly biased - there's no consistent methodology here. I don't think placing MMA at #6 for beating the players he did and getting absolutely crushed by Life is terribly biased. Would you rate him above soO or Zest after Blizzcon? For me, the answer was no - he impressed me, but not that much. My reasoning is this: Up until the finals, MMA beat each of his opponents by a comfortable margin (3-1 each time), and his opponents weren't exactly walkovers - Bomber was pegged as a big contender, and Classic is no slouch either. Secondly, MMA didn't exactly come out of nowhere for Blizzcon. He won 2 Premier tournaments (Dreamhack and WCS EU) in the months right before Blizzcon - overall he's had a very good fall. I don't think that Life at #1 is wrong, but the reasoning is inconsistent - if Life can be #1 from one good tournament, why does MMA need 3 good showings and only gets #6?Ultimately, ability is one thing, but accomplishments when it matters is also very important. soO and Zest FAILED at Blizzcon. When it came down to the wire, they came up short.
MMA had tough competition but who should be be above out of Taeja Innovation Soo Zest and Life? Those 5 only were beat by each other have more success outside of blizzcon. MMA is ahead of everyone he beat and while he did win 2 tournaments what big opponents did he beat there to put him ahead of one of those 5? The only one of those that doesn't have great success leading up to blizzcon is Life who beat MMA handily and won it all. The rest have better results than MMA still
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On November 14 2014 04:12 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2014 04:00 Bagration wrote:On November 13 2014 15:39 Zealously wrote:On November 13 2014 13:03 Bagration wrote:On November 13 2014 12:17 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 13 2014 07:25 Dodgin wrote:
lol taeja gets 8 slots higher than bomber even though he lost in WCS AM as usual
joke IT IS A POWER RANK! The title of the goddamn list is the post-Blizzcon POWER RANK! He says in the beginning of the damn list that he weighted Blizzcon very heavily, why in the hell does the WCS AM tournament matter? It doesn't. Geez, I feel like I'm the only nerd on this site that ever reads conventional sporting Power Ranks. The rest of you don't seem to have a clue of what they are. He didn't weigh Blizzcon heavily - he only weighed it heavily when it suited him (Life #1, but MMA #6). That's why this Power Ranking is clearly biased - there's no consistent methodology here. I don't think placing MMA at #6 for beating the players he did and getting absolutely crushed by Life is terribly biased. Would you rate him above soO or Zest after Blizzcon? For me, the answer was no - he impressed me, but not that much. My reasoning is this: Up until the finals, MMA beat each of his opponents by a comfortable margin (3-1 each time), and his opponents weren't exactly walkovers - Bomber was pegged as a big contender, and Classic is no slouch either. Secondly, MMA didn't exactly come out of nowhere for Blizzcon. He won 2 Premier tournaments (Dreamhack and WCS EU) in the months right before Blizzcon - overall he's had a very good fall. I don't think that Life at #1 is wrong, but the reasoning is inconsistent - if Life can be #1 from one good tournament, why does MMA need 3 good showings and only gets #6?Ultimately, ability is one thing, but accomplishments when it matters is also very important. soO and Zest FAILED at Blizzcon. When it came down to the wire, they came up short. It's fairly simple: because I think Life performed much better than MMA did. I covered this in MMA's section, but I have this nagging feeling that there were a lot of players that Blizzcon that could or should have taken him out. I definitely respect his run and it's one of his best recently, but the way he unceremoniously dropped to an on-form player (Life) makes me question whether or not he got to the finals simply by virtue of being better than his opponents, or if he was aided by his opponents collapsing or having a bad day.
Fair enough, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree haha
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On November 13 2014 07:32 Greenei wrote:
These power ranks seem so inconsistent. Sometimes the month performance doesn't seem to matter much more than consistency and sometimes it is enough to instantly catapult a player to rank 1. In the end the WCS finals only were 4 matches. If these ranks were made like the one where Rain won, Bomber should be much higher. He won RBBG and WCS America after all.
There's one consistency. Taeja is always higher ranked than he should be.
Taeja hasn't won anything since July but makes a Semi final here and gets ranked 2nd.
MMA hasn't done jack all for months either but comes 2nd at Blizzcon and gets ranked 6th
Team Liquid Power Rank logic in action.
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On November 14 2014 02:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2014 01:53 bourne117 wrote:On November 14 2014 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 14 2014 01:09 bourne117 wrote:On November 13 2014 21:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 13 2014 21:12 Zealously wrote:
I wonder why we still dismiss Taeja when he beat last season's finalists in the same format as the GSL playoffs. Cause he never won a tournament where you can prepare for your opponent? Taeja is a great player, one of the best the game has seen for sure, but he still lacks a GSL title (or even wcs one). Next year he will have the chance to win one (with the new spotv league even more than ever)  Innovation had a week to prepare. About the same as the GSL ro8 and on wards. Soo had more than a month (give or take can't remember the exact length from the bracket being locked in and the ro16 being played) He didn't win the tournament but he beat both GSL finalists after both had an extended period of time to prepare. So? I don't see how that changes my point. I never said he will lose vs any good player as soon as you can prepare. But if you wanna win GSL you have to go through a lot of different opponents who prepare for you. He couldn't do that yet. Also the games vs Innovation, well... it doesn't really matter, next year we will have more answers Except Taeja hasn't been in GSL to actually try since HoTS came out and when he was he was consistently performing despite being having to battle against arguable the most imbalanced time in SC2. You can certainly argue that his lack of success in WCS AM is the same thing except almost all of his failures in WCS AM have been during the ro8 onwards where it is more like a weekend tournament again instead of a GSL style where you can prepare. Why does this whole he lacks a GSL title thing always come up with Taeja? GSLs are incredibly hard to win and there aren't exactly a lot of them making using them as a great indicator of a players strength less than ideal because one bad series and suddenly 1/3rd of the year is lost in terms of GSLs. Rain hasn't won a GSL. Innovation was the consensus best player in the world last year despite never winning. Soo hasn't won one either. Are those players suddenly of lesser quality because of this? Of course not. Is Sniper or roro suddenly a better player than them because they have won a GSL? Of course not. Consistent results are way better than just looking at one tournament and saying oh well you haven't won it so you consistently doing extremely well in it doesn't matter and consistently doing extremely well everywhere else doesn't matter. I don't say it doesn't matter. I also don't say that one gsl win is worth more than what taeja does. But the fact that taeja never won a wcs tournament despite his countless other tournament might imply that he isn't suited for these tournaments. Basically i am just saying that i don't feel comfortable calling him the best terran in the world when he "only" wins weekend tournaments where a lot of hard opponents are missing or can't really prepare for him. That doesn't mean that his achievements aren't worth anything, my statement isn't that black and white I certainly think he is a top 3 terran for sure, at least most of the time^^ Show nested quote +On November 14 2014 02:05 Zealously wrote:On November 14 2014 02:03 ANLProbe wrote:On November 13 2014 21:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 13 2014 21:12 Zealously wrote:
I wonder why we still dismiss Taeja when he beat last season's finalists in the same format as the GSL playoffs. Cause he never won a tournament where you can prepare for your opponent? Taeja is a great player, one of the best the game has seen for sure, but he still lacks a GSL title (or even wcs one). Next year he will have the chance to win one (with the new spotv league even more than ever) Taeja vs SoO and Taeja vs Inno were both preparation formats. I mean, technically he isn't wrong - Taeja didn't win the tournament. I agree that discrediting him because he didn't win it (it would imply that soO is also shit because he never wins preparation tourneys either) is stupid. I don't discredit him, at least i don't want to. I just don't agree with people calling him the best terran in the world when all his achievements so far are pretty much in one style of tournament. Missing a lot of great players. People always mention he won like 11 tournaments or something like that, but a lot of these tournaments weren't THAT stacked tbh (even when he won vs one or two s class players in them, that isn't really enough in code s for example)
Lets completely ignore tournament wins then and purely look at who he has beaten. Soo is overall probably the best zerg right now (regardless of life being #1 right now) Taeja 3-1ed him. Innovation just won the GSL. Taeja 3-1ed (before you say the delays are the only reason game 1 and 2 were played almost completely without delays and the series was 1-1 with taeja kind of throwing game 1, plus historically taeja has had innovations number hard. The head to head right now is like 11-5 in favor of Taeja. Then Zest the consensus best Toss taeja has beaten 3-0 and 2-1 in recent tournaments. So he has a winning record with convincing wins against basically the best of all 3 races from korea. If Taeja played in korea even with just ro8 and ro4 performances (just like he would get when he use to be in the GSL) he would be viewed as easily the best terran but because he is from WCS NA he is put to a higher standard.
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LIFE LIFE LIFE LIFE #1 NOW AND FOREVER!
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On November 14 2014 04:12 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2014 04:00 Bagration wrote:On November 13 2014 15:39 Zealously wrote:On November 13 2014 13:03 Bagration wrote:On November 13 2014 12:17 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 13 2014 07:25 Dodgin wrote:
lol taeja gets 8 slots higher than bomber even though he lost in WCS AM as usual
joke IT IS A POWER RANK! The title of the goddamn list is the post-Blizzcon POWER RANK! He says in the beginning of the damn list that he weighted Blizzcon very heavily, why in the hell does the WCS AM tournament matter? It doesn't. Geez, I feel like I'm the only nerd on this site that ever reads conventional sporting Power Ranks. The rest of you don't seem to have a clue of what they are. He didn't weigh Blizzcon heavily - he only weighed it heavily when it suited him (Life #1, but MMA #6). That's why this Power Ranking is clearly biased - there's no consistent methodology here. I don't think placing MMA at #6 for beating the players he did and getting absolutely crushed by Life is terribly biased. Would you rate him above soO or Zest after Blizzcon? For me, the answer was no - he impressed me, but not that much. My reasoning is this: Up until the finals, MMA beat each of his opponents by a comfortable margin (3-1 each time), and his opponents weren't exactly walkovers - Bomber was pegged as a big contender, and Classic is no slouch either. Secondly, MMA didn't exactly come out of nowhere for Blizzcon. He won 2 Premier tournaments (Dreamhack and WCS EU) in the months right before Blizzcon - overall he's had a very good fall. I don't think that Life at #1 is wrong, but the reasoning is inconsistent - if Life can be #1 from one good tournament, why does MMA need 3 good showings and only gets #6?Ultimately, ability is one thing, but accomplishments when it matters is also very important. soO and Zest FAILED at Blizzcon. When it came down to the wire, they came up short. It's fairly simple: because I think Life performed much better than MMA did. I covered this in MMA's section, but I have this nagging feeling that there were a lot of players that Blizzcon that could or should have taken him out. I definitely respect his run and it's one of his best recently, but the way he unceremoniously dropped to an on-form player (Life) makes me question whether or not he got to the finals simply by virtue of being better than his opponents, or if he was aided by his opponents collapsing or having a bad day.
On November 13 2014 20:20 ValM wrote:Get lost sir. I just cannot believe the lack of respect in general for MMA despite his accomplishments against the so called Korea region or Kespa players even. I don't say he is the best player or anything ridiculous of that sort but this run of his is a huge accomplishment for any relevant player. If the list is weighed heavily on blizzcon results then what the hell are zest and soo doing up there? I feel we are heavily confusing between who we think are solid/beastly players overall while looking at their play and who should be good or bad depending on their result in a particular tournamentwhich is blizzcon in this case. As an MMA fan I am proud of what he has achieved and how far he has come after being written off by everybody. No player in sc2 had fallen as hard as he did and has come back as strongly as has in a totally different era. Looking back there are almost no players of his time around except Bomber, DRG and probably Polt. And still he is there standing tall demolishing claims and proving his worth, while all we can do is scoff if he should be #6 or lower/higher. Are we just a bunch of fanboys grumbling because their player didn't win or didn't get enough recognition for it? Or we can look at the greater picture and respect everybody who puts everything on the line in order to pursue their respective dreams. All players might not win titles despite being good enough to do so, but all players can win respect and the hearts of people watching them and make new fans for themselves and show their passion and dedication. I sometimes feel all of us have forgotten most of this.
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On November 14 2014 04:21 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 07:32 Greenei wrote:
These power ranks seem so inconsistent. Sometimes the month performance doesn't seem to matter much more than consistency and sometimes it is enough to instantly catapult a player to rank 1. In the end the WCS finals only were 4 matches. If these ranks were made like the one where Rain won, Bomber should be much higher. He won RBBG and WCS America after all. There's one consistency. Taeja is always higher ranked than he should be. Taeja hasn't won anything since July but makes a Semi final here and gets ranked 2nd. MMA hasn't done jack all for months either but comes 2nd at Blizzcon and gets ranked 6th Team Liquid Power Rank logic in action.
Taeja also beat both finalists of the last GSL 3-1. There is more to a power ranking than just looking at how much you have won recently.
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This is overall a good power ranking, MMA did absolutely not look super strong going into the finals, I don't know if people really watched the games (because the results tell a different story and frankly that story is kind of misleading).
That said ofcourse he did not look weak, a number 6 placement is still crazy high and he deserves it. And who knows what's in store for next year!
Just my opinion after watching Blizzcon :-)
I'm also very terran biased, because I love terran and always root for terran to win. Even through this It's still pretty obvious he is not better than the top 5.
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On November 14 2014 05:08 bourne117 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2014 04:21 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On November 13 2014 07:32 Greenei wrote:
These power ranks seem so inconsistent. Sometimes the month performance doesn't seem to matter much more than consistency and sometimes it is enough to instantly catapult a player to rank 1. In the end the WCS finals only were 4 matches. If these ranks were made like the one where Rain won, Bomber should be much higher. He won RBBG and WCS America after all. There's one consistency. Taeja is always higher ranked than he should be. Taeja hasn't won anything since July but makes a Semi final here and gets ranked 2nd. MMA hasn't done jack all for months either but comes 2nd at Blizzcon and gets ranked 6th Team Liquid Power Rank logic in action. Taeja also beat both finalists of the last GSL 3-1. There is more to a power ranking than just looking at how much you have won recently.
I don't disagree that he should be on it he just quite blatantly shouldn't second.
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I am a bit sad for MMA getting only 6th place, although I am glad he is in the power rank. Life at #1 is fair. I am just sad that people still attribude MMAs astounding achievements to luck; especially his victory over Bomber was incredibly impressive, and he has won two big tournaments recently. It is not the low ranking on this list that hurts me, but rather the failure to recognize that you create your own luck.
Otherwise I think this was a nice writeup, though you could have written something on herO at least...
MMA will still rule the world I am sure !
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On November 13 2014 07:32 Greenei wrote:
These power ranks seem so inconsistent. Sometimes the month performance doesn't seem to matter much more than consistency and sometimes it is enough to instantly catapult a player to rank 1. In the end the WCS finals only were 4 matches. If these ranks were made like the one where Rain won, Bomber should be much higher. He won RBBG and WCS America after all.
I agree so, so much!
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On November 14 2014 05:49 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2014 05:08 bourne117 wrote:On November 14 2014 04:21 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On November 13 2014 07:32 Greenei wrote:
These power ranks seem so inconsistent. Sometimes the month performance doesn't seem to matter much more than consistency and sometimes it is enough to instantly catapult a player to rank 1. In the end the WCS finals only were 4 matches. If these ranks were made like the one where Rain won, Bomber should be much higher. He won RBBG and WCS America after all. There's one consistency. Taeja is always higher ranked than he should be. Taeja hasn't won anything since July but makes a Semi final here and gets ranked 2nd. MMA hasn't done jack all for months either but comes 2nd at Blizzcon and gets ranked 6th Team Liquid Power Rank logic in action. Taeja also beat both finalists of the last GSL 3-1. There is more to a power ranking than just looking at how much you have won recently. I don't disagree that he should be on it he just quite blatantly shouldn't second.
So who should be ahead of him? Soo? Oh wait he beat soo. Innovation? Oh wait he beat Innovation. Zest he beat Zest and Zest lost to life. MMA? He had a way easier road to the finals.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 14 2014 07:19 TheLittleOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 07:32 Greenei wrote:
These power ranks seem so inconsistent. Sometimes the month performance doesn't seem to matter much more than consistency and sometimes it is enough to instantly catapult a player to rank 1. In the end the WCS finals only were 4 matches. If these ranks were made like the one where Rain won, Bomber should be much higher. He won RBBG and WCS America after all. I agree so, so much!
I think I explained the reasoning behind this fairly thoroughly (both in the OP and in this thread). There is no more important tournament in th scene than the Global Finals, and players have the best conditions in terms of preparation and rest time to make sure they play the best they possibly could. I think it's reasonable (especially when I said so clearly in the article) to put the most weight on the tournament the players themselves do most to succeed in.
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On November 13 2014 07:14 gneGne wrote:
Cmon.. MMAs run was every bit as astounding as was Life's. You don't just end up in the finals on sheer luck.
MMA's run was about a 10th as impressive as Life's.
Bomber had these guys on his side of the bracket:
Bomber, Jaedong, Stardust, MC, herO, Polt, Classic. Bomber and Classic are genuine stars, arguably Polt as well. MMA had to beat Bomber and Classic, which absolutely impressive.
Life had these monsters on his side of the bracket:
San, jjakji, Zest, Taeja, soO, INnoVation, HyuN. Zest, Taeja, soO and INnoVation aren't starts - they're super-stars. The three best players from GSL plus Taeja, the most successful weekend warrior in SC2. Life beat Zest, which seemed impossible. Then he beat San who whilst not up to the callibre of those four I mentioned earlier, is at least close to the level of Bomber, Classic and Polt. Then he beat Taeja (who was white-hot and took out soO and Bogus). Then he stomped MMA without ever looking even slightly troubled.
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It was like watching another Rocky film. Underdog won.
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On November 14 2014 07:34 bourne117 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2014 05:49 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On November 14 2014 05:08 bourne117 wrote:On November 14 2014 04:21 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On November 13 2014 07:32 Greenei wrote:
These power ranks seem so inconsistent. Sometimes the month performance doesn't seem to matter much more than consistency and sometimes it is enough to instantly catapult a player to rank 1. In the end the WCS finals only were 4 matches. If these ranks were made like the one where Rain won, Bomber should be much higher. He won RBBG and WCS America after all. There's one consistency. Taeja is always higher ranked than he should be. Taeja hasn't won anything since July but makes a Semi final here and gets ranked 2nd. MMA hasn't done jack all for months either but comes 2nd at Blizzcon and gets ranked 6th Team Liquid Power Rank logic in action. Taeja also beat both finalists of the last GSL 3-1. There is more to a power ranking than just looking at how much you have won recently. I don't disagree that he should be on it he just quite blatantly shouldn't second. So who should be ahead of him? Soo? Oh wait he beat soo. Innovation? Oh wait he beat Innovation. Zest he beat Zest and Zest lost to life. MMA? He had a way easier road to the finals.
this head to head logic would have been nice last year when dear deserved to be ranked above taeja.
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France9034 Posts
I love Power ranks, makes for lenghty discussions about why they're wrong.
IMO this is a decent ranking, I love MMA but I wouldn't put him higher without confirmation that he's really back at that "really good" level of play (though he definitely seems on the way to it).
Tajea #2 doesn't shock me as well, the guy is insanely good, and losing to Life the way he did doesn't suddenly make him a joke or unworthy of a top 4.
Life #1, well, I think it's debatable, but this month, he's obvioulsy top 3, just for beating Taeja (who itself beat soO, which gives tons of credit to Life) and Zest when it mattered.
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I dont think MMA deserves this list , his region and opponents" tvt" doesnt prove that he is solid enough yet.. i can see many kespa players like maru , TY , flash , byong , soulkey dark stats rain beating him any given day in a long series ...
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EPT
