On November 11 2014 13:20 mishimaBeef wrote: "the early game dead time is an important part of Starcraft"
How so? Mind games?
Yep:
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too:
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
To those who think why the 12 saturation on workers is bad:
Protoss harder to defend = True, BUT --> Terran/Zerg won't have much 2 base income either - so less Marines/Roaches/Hydras attacking your 3rd
Harassment will be stronger = TRUE, but --> It's easier to get back after a harassment.. Basically the harassment will be more often but less harder of an impact on the long-term economy stages of the game.. Right now for example the game is = lose 20 workers and you're dead.. you won't be able to do anything else but workers and defend for the next 3-4 minutes, you're basically dead in the water.. And with the change of 12 saturation per base - you can't lose more than 12 workers unless multi-prongued harrass.. And EVEN vs those - you'll still earlier come back (because rebuilding 12 workers one at a time on two places is easier than rebuilding 20 one at a time on two places).. This in fact might be a bit of a direct nerf to the Zerg comeback cause it's impact will be lesser compared to the ones of the other races.. STILL - it's a good change considering that Zerg got efficiency in it's army even from the early game
The game has invested far more into in-battle unit control and micro = why not remove the heavy burden of managing and eco a bit in order to compensate ?
Most of us who weren't pros - the game was - I created 50 workers, lost 20 of them = well, I'm dead, cause you can't quite focus on remaking workers in the late game once you've lost them along with everything else going round the map.. Sure - there will be EVEN MORE THINGS going round the map, but at least the impact will be lesser and will be easier to come back
I can't think of a SINGLE drawback from the reduction of saturation per base.. I mean I can see how it may be more dangerous for the Protoss to defend, but the other races won't have such a high income (therefore less army to attack) from having less bases as well
Even in the late game - we could see viable battles with both sides having like 40-50 workers overall instead of 80 or 90 = means more units on the battlefield, but cause every race now has effective ways to dispatch the deathballing of the other race = the game will be more about smaller skirmishes on multiple places on the map.. In other words = EFFECTIVENESS > Numbers (somewhat) with the new changes..
Terrran will be able to Cyclone-down the Colossi from a long range without overinvestment into Vikings that would most likely die in the battle..
Zerg will be able to defend Protoss deathballs with Swarmhosts, Ravagers, and even if not having such a strong unit in the composition - they could use the Infestor buff to deal with the problem.. Protoss deathball incomming ? - no problem - Roaches with 20 Damage, or say - Mutalisks with 15
That's even better of a gain vs Terran TBH = Lings with 10 damage will be able to battle on their own vs Marines without even need of Banelings as long as Terran doesn't have Hercs or splash
So yes - Terran will be easier to dispatch from the deathball of Protoss, Zerg wil be easier to dispatch the Terran deathball of Marine-Tank.. As for Protoss - well they got the Colossi nerfed to range 8 as well as some extra tactical decisions in the game such as Oracle mine placement before the engagement
As for the 12 workers start:
#1 - nerf for the Overlord = that's true #2 - buff to Terran (directly) - cause by the time Terran had 12 workers, Protoss usually had 14, and Zerg could even have 16 or 18 (depending on the opener).. But probably later first MULE as well
#3 - scouting early will be far more important - perhaps even take a woker from the starting 12 outright and check for things whether or not will be built in the middle of the map
Still - would definitely like to see how it turns out in the longer terms if there were more 12 workers per base games played.. TBH - I can see only good come out of that :D
On November 11 2014 23:44 BaronVonOwn wrote: So did anyone else notice that corruption was removed? Zerg antiair is already weak and it just got nerfed.
You will have the infestor dmg buff, i think it will be fine (even though i would prefer more interesting anti air)
Corruption was like almost imba when used against Tempests/Colossus/other big air units though. I'm a bit sad it is removed
The infestor dmg buff is even more powerful, no?
But it only applies to ground-to-ground units, unless I'm wrong?
Huh i actually don't know, i hoped it would apply to any unit :/
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKPlGknTaTw
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
Thats how it should be.
All-ins and cheeses are boring.
No they are not. Crowds who go wild when something is proxied prove that pretty easily. It just happens that you (and Big J) don't like that part.
#3 - scouting early will be far more important - perhaps even take a woker from the starting 12 outright and check for things whether or not will be built in the middle of the map
Scouting with 1/12 is much "cheaper" than with 1/9 or 1/10 (current early scout timings). I think if you immidiatly scout you could be reaching the opponents base when his first pylon/depot just finishes, so you get full information. (unless the starting money gets changed too) Protoss and Terran still have to build a depot/pylon before they can proxy midmap. Zerg can still only produce 6zerglings of a 12pool but T/P have more workers to defend than against a current 6-10pool.
#3 - scouting early will be far more important - perhaps even take a woker from the starting 12 outright and check for things whether or not will be built in the middle of the map
Scouting with 1/12 is much "cheaper" than with 1/9 or 1/10 (current early scout timings). I think if you immidiatly scout you could be reaching the opponents base when his first pylon/depot just finishes, so you get full information. (unless the starting money gets changed too) Protoss and Terran still have to build a depot/pylon before they can proxy midmap. Zerg can still only produce 6zerglings of a 12pool but T/P have more workers to defend than against a current 6-10pool.
Cheaper but more necessary IMO
There's nothing preventing your opponent to outright do a cannon-rush in your nat with one of the first 12 workers he has cause he knows you don't have a pool made on time to defend.. Basically I think that blind offensive cannon rushes on 2-spawning-location maps will be quite effective cause Zerg wouldn't be able to make a pool earlier
Or say vs Terran - what prevents Terran from taking 2 SCVs at the time around it's first depot is half-made and do a straight up 12/12 ? (or a bit safer version, not so much all-in - at 13/13 ?), that's like from minute 0 - from the very get-go in the game ?
Therefore I think that scouting with one worker from the starting 12 will be necessary I think TBH
On November 11 2014 23:44 BaronVonOwn wrote: So did anyone else notice that corruption was removed? Zerg antiair is already weak and it just got nerfed.
You will have the infestor dmg buff, i think it will be fine (even though i would prefer more interesting anti air)
Corruption was like almost imba when used against Tempests/Colossus/other big air units though. I'm a bit sad it is removed
The infestor dmg buff is even more powerful, no?
But it only applies to ground-to-ground units, unless I'm wrong?
Huh i actually don't know, i hoped it would apply to any unit :/
Well I don't know either, but I think given how mutalisks stack, a flat +5 damage to your muta pack with the spell only casted once would be really, really powerful
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKPlGknTaTw
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
Thats how it should be.
All-ins and cheeses are boring.
No they are not. Crowds who go wild when something is proxied prove that pretty easily. It just happens that you (and Big J) don't like that part.
And why would the execution be fun part here? I rather believe its the excitiement that the game can end so fast. In a big match etc So its not the proxy that is fun in itself but rather the emotions around it.
You will have this excitement even with these shitthings gone. Yes, i call it shithings since its so much luck involved. I as a player and a viewer want the best player to win. Or, the best player that game to win. Not determined by some rng that is a bo win or bo lose
You will still have this excitement in a more skill based execution that both bring excitement and adds micro and decision making behind it.
Ppl who like rng and bo wins, bo lose. Maybe better to watch something like poker instead of sc2 then?
EDIT: just to be clear, there is micro involved in bo win or bo loss strategies. But what i truly mean is a micro war that is determined by the micro. Not these 1/10 micro fights. No, i mean more like 6/10+ micro fights. Where both players have an equal chance to win.
On November 11 2014 23:44 BaronVonOwn wrote: So did anyone else notice that corruption was removed? Zerg antiair is already weak and it just got nerfed.
You will have the infestor dmg buff, i think it will be fine (even though i would prefer more interesting anti air)
Corruption was like almost imba when used against Tempests/Colossus/other big air units though. I'm a bit sad it is removed
The infestor dmg buff is even more powerful, no?
But it only applies to ground-to-ground units, unless I'm wrong?
Huh i actually don't know, i hoped it would apply to any unit :/
Well I don't know either, but I think given how mutalisks stack, a flat +5 damage to your muta pack with the spell only casted once would be really, really powerful
On November 11 2014 23:44 BaronVonOwn wrote: So did anyone else notice that corruption was removed? Zerg antiair is already weak and it just got nerfed.
You will have the infestor dmg buff, i think it will be fine (even though i would prefer more interesting anti air)
Corruption was like almost imba when used against Tempests/Colossus/other big air units though. I'm a bit sad it is removed
The infestor dmg buff is even more powerful, no?
But it only applies to ground-to-ground units, unless I'm wrong?
Huh i actually don't know, i hoped it would apply to any unit :/
Well I don't know either, but I think given how mutalisks stack, a flat +5 damage to your muta pack with the spell only casted once would be really, really powerful
But even if it is oly to ground units. Hydras and Queens with +5 should deal with air pretty well too i think
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKPlGknTaTw
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
Thats how it should be.
All-ins and cheeses are boring.
No they are not. Crowds who go wild when something is proxied prove that pretty easily. It just happens that you (and Big J) don't like that part.
And why would the execution be fun part here? I rather believe its the excitiement that the game can end so fast. In a big match etc So its not the proxy that is fun in itself but rather the emotions around it.
You will have this excitement even with these shitthings gone. Yes, i call it shithings since its so much luck involved. I as a player and a viewer want the best player to win. Or, the best player that game to win. Not determined by some rng that is a bo win or bo lose
You will still have this excitement in a more skill based execution that both bring excitement and adds micro and decision making behind it.
Ppl who like rng and bo wins, bo lose. Maybe better to watch something like poker instead of sc2 then?
EDIT: just to be clear, there is micro involved in bo win or bo loss strategies. But what i truly mean is a micro war that is determined by the micro. Not these 1/10 micro fights. No, i mean more like 6/10+ micro fights. Where both players have an equal chance to win.
I don't even wanna argue that there is some sort of luck involved. But it isn't that bad tbh, otherwise we would see it a lot more than we do, it is the novelty factor which is exciting in these cases. It also seems weird to me that you say we (the guys hwo don't mind it) should watch something different, i actually believe it is you (the guys who want to eliminate any "rng" -> aka perfect information) should rather watch soething different, there will always be some luck in rts games with fog of war.
On November 11 2014 23:44 BaronVonOwn wrote: So did anyone else notice that corruption was removed? Zerg antiair is already weak and it just got nerfed.
You will have the infestor dmg buff, i think it will be fine (even though i would prefer more interesting anti air)
Corruption was like almost imba when used against Tempests/Colossus/other big air units though. I'm a bit sad it is removed
The infestor dmg buff is even more powerful, no?
But it only applies to ground-to-ground units, unless I'm wrong?
Huh i actually don't know, i hoped it would apply to any unit :/
Well I don't know either, but I think given how mutalisks stack, a flat +5 damage to your muta pack with the spell only casted once would be really, really powerful
Is it confirmed to work for air?
Err I think I'm remembering a caster saying it worked only for ground units at BlizzCon, but I'm not sure at all
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKPlGknTaTw
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
Thats how it should be.
All-ins and cheeses are boring.
If all-ins and cheeses are boring, then why do crowds regularly go hype when they happen? I already posted videos were the crowd and the casters (Artosis and Apollo in both cases, which means very top-tier casters) were excited about proxy strategies being used. Artosis and Apollo even manage to lay down some analysis on why the proxies are being used. I also know from experience that LR threads tend to tick over a few pages when people proxy just through people being hype about it. I therefore find it hard to believe that removing these options from the game is a good move by Blizzard.
If cheeses really were popular, why on earth are everyone talking about how bad varous finals were and mention the number of games that are decided by cheese? Perhaps like 1/100 games that involve cheese are actually interesting as it end involving a fan-favourite that barely wins/loses, and then you find a link to that game, but the majority of the time, it's a bad viewer experience.
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKPlGknTaTw
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
Thats how it should be.
All-ins and cheeses are boring.
If all-ins and cheeses are boring, then why do crowds regularly go hype when they happen? I already posted videos were the crowd and the casters (Artosis and Apollo in both cases, which means very top-tier casters) were excited about proxy strategies being used. Artosis and Apollo even manage to lay down some analysis on why the proxies are being used. I also know from experience that LR threads tend to tick over a few pages when people proxy just through people being hype about it. I therefore find it hard to believe that removing these options from the game is a good move by Blizzard.
I wrote in a post above that its the excitement around it. Not the execution in itself. A big match and a proxy 2gate goes down. Now its a very big chance to win the game right there.
This brings emotions. Doesnt mean the proxy initself is fun.
And maybe its because sc2 is rather dull in the strategy/tactic department so rather than watching a 200 vs 200 fight, these proxy things provide some new airflow to the lungs.
Some more example: Since sc2 is rather slowpaced in the opening. Prox/cheese strats fixes this by providing early agression.
But lotv seems to fixed this, lets assume blizzard do nail it. Then what is more fun: a proxy 2gate with a 50% chance to win. When the fight happens its pretty easy to determine who will win. The micro isnt really exciting etc
Or: someone opens agressive cyclones , attack protoss. Toss answers with blink stalkers: Both micro against each other. Terran adds more agressive units such as herz attack protoss: Toss responds by adding zealot.
And the microwar starts+the macro war starts. Its not about 3base def def def deathball. Its more about trying to outmanouver the enemy from the get to and continuing the agression none-stop.
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKPlGknTaTw
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
Thats how it should be.
All-ins and cheeses are boring.
No they are not. Crowds who go wild when something is proxied prove that pretty easily. It just happens that you (and Big J) don't like that part.
And why would the execution be fun part here? I rather believe its the excitiement that the game can end so fast. In a big match etc So its not the proxy that is fun in itself but rather the emotions around it.
You will have this excitement even with these shitthings gone. Yes, i call it shithings since its so much luck involved. I as a player and a viewer want the best player to win. Or, the best player that game to win. Not determined by some rng that is a bo win or bo lose
You will still have this excitement in a more skill based execution that both bring excitement and adds micro and decision making behind it.
Ppl who like rng and bo wins, bo lose. Maybe better to watch something like poker instead of sc2 then?
EDIT: just to be clear, there is micro involved in bo win or bo loss strategies. But what i truly mean is a micro war that is determined by the micro. Not these 1/10 micro fights. No, i mean more like 6/10+ micro fights. Where both players have an equal chance to win.
I don't even wanna argue that there is some sort of luck involved. But it isn't that bad tbh, otherwise we would see it a lot more than we do, it is the novelty factor which is exciting in these cases. It also seems weird to me that you say we (the guys hwo don't mind it) should watch something different, i actually believe it is you (the guys who want to eliminate any "rng" -> aka perfect information) should rather watch soething different, there will always be some luck in rts games with fog of war.
I didnt say for you guys who like proxy rng and stuff to watch something else. What i did was asking if maybe it would be better.
Ofcourse there will be luck involved in this game. What iam saying is to reduce it as much as possible. Proxy things have way to big luck involved. Esport = esports. Then the better or best player should win. Not the one with the most luck.
If you can declare bullshit, bad, uninteresting coinflips an important part of Starcraft then I want to declare this kind of stuff an important part of starcraft too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKPlGknTaTw
At least in those games you need skill not luck to win.
NaNiwa knew that JD wanted to go 3 Hatch Before Pool so he played on that. He did the same thing to HyuN at another tournament for the same reason. sOs knew that herO wasn't scouting properly so he played on that. It's an important part of punishing player's who are known to be greedy. If you don't find mindgames interesting then fair enough, but waiting an extra minute for those of us who do can't be that bad.
The game you posted has nothing to do with mindgames or coinflips so I don't really know why you're posting it. The problems that the SH has have nothing to do with proxy Gateways or 11/11 Rax or 6 Pools or whatever else you can do before 10 supply (and there are a lot of builds you can do before 10 supply yet alone 12).
Yeah. Incredible dull are those cheeses. Its luckbased. The attacks that happens are uninteresting. Nothing to see at all. Especially in a so called-esport.
New rushes/attacks will happen that requires skill, micro, decision making. Without going all-in or doing an extremely risky cheese.
Thats how it should be.
All-ins and cheeses are boring.
If all-ins and cheeses are boring, then why do crowds regularly go hype when they happen? I already posted videos were the crowd and the casters (Artosis and Apollo in both cases, which means very top-tier casters) were excited about proxy strategies being used. Artosis and Apollo even manage to lay down some analysis on why the proxies are being used. I also know from experience that LR threads tend to tick over a few pages when people proxy just through people being hype about it. I therefore find it hard to believe that removing these options from the game is a good move by Blizzard.
I wrote in a post above that its the excitement around it. Not the execution in itself. A big match and a proxy 2gate goes down. Now its a very big chance to win the game right there.
This brings emotions. Doesnt mean the proxy initself is fun.
So you think that people getting emotional about the game is something Blizzard should seek to remove?
Nothing else you've said is worth reading. I'm not arguing with someone who truly believes that it's a bad thing when viewers get emotional about a game, or buy into the emotions of a player who is going for something so ballsy.
No. Instead of only emotional you will have the emotional and the fun both at the same time.
EPT
